Northern nationalists versus ?

[sid waddell]

To be honest Sid comes across as a bit of a pseudo-intellectual of the Ruth Dudley Edwards school of thinking. Best ignored.

And again a northern nationalist resorts to name calling

Some lads here seem hell bent on proving my points for me

[Orior]

Nationalism is a disease.

I thoroughly agree

Plenty of posters here waaaay down that rabbit hole

Agreed. Amazing what can be justified in the the name of nationalism

Is there a country in the world that isn't infected?

Exactly. And it has been like that for centuries. The difference now is that Social Media gives everyone an equal platform. Individually, we have to learn how to consume, make sense of the tidal wave of messages and guage the norm. For their own sanity, the middle ground tend not to get involved in online debates.

[tonto1888]

This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..

All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading

Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!

Now the narrative is the opposite!

Yis are fierce confused 

SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused

I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation

But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory

So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused

Confusion, I suppose

You've literally no idea of life in the north, none, you're assessment is based on living in the south.

Be like me assessing what life would have been like without having my bag searched on way to school house being searched, intimidating work environments, job inequality, no housing, gerrymandering, I  could go on.

Nice sitting in Ivory tower looking down. 

Im not SF nor for violence.

If you believe that, then neither has Sinn Fein's leadership

The majority of the Catholic population of the north apparently had no idea what it was like to live there, given they didn't vote for Sinn Fein and didn't support the IRA

How exactly did you reach that conclusion? Not voting SF or supporting the PIRA/INLA or whoever does not mean they have no idea what it was like to live here

[Orior]

To be honest Sid comes across as a bit of a pseudo-intellectual of the Ruth Dudley Edwards school of thinking. Best ignored.

And again a northern nationalist resorts to name calling

Some lads here seem hell bent on proving my points for me

Just tell me that you're not Dudley Edwards (who, by the way, discovered that Orangism in good and Nationalism in bad).

[sid waddell]

This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..

All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading

Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!

Now the narrative is the opposite!

Yis are fierce confused 

SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused

I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation

But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory

So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused

Confusion, I suppose

You've literally no idea of life in the north, none, you're assessment is based on living in the south.

Be like me assessing what life would have been like without having my bag searched on way to school house being searched, intimidating work environments, job inequality, no housing, gerrymandering, I  could go on.

Nice sitting in Ivory tower looking down. 

Im not SF nor for violence.

If you believe that, then neither has Sinn Fein's leadership

The majority of the Catholic population of the north apparently had no idea what it was like to live there, given they didn't vote for Sinn Fein and didn't support the IRA

I believe you've no idea, unless you can provide me with your time, you life in the north. Your experience of the north consisted of?

Ah, the old "you don't live here" excuse beloved of the Trump cultists

I wasn't aware you had to live anywhere in particular to know that murdering civilians is wrong, but sure you learn something new every day

The same Shinners and nationalists who wheel out these weasel words are generally the same ones who have extremely strong views on politics in the Republic, but by their own logic they have no right to hold any views on politics in the Republic

Partitionists when it suits them and anti-partitionists when it doesn't 

Some rabbit hole that

Well that's a lie. You have all the hallmarks of a Trumpist.

But it's not a lie

Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north

But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics

Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you

After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted

More hypocrisy

[sid waddell]

This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..

All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading

Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!

Now the narrative is the opposite!

Yis are fierce confused 

SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused

I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation

But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory

So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused

Confusion, I suppose

You've literally no idea of life in the north, none, you're assessment is based on living in the south.

Be like me assessing what life would have been like without having my bag searched on way to school house being searched, intimidating work environments, job inequality, no housing, gerrymandering, I  could go on.

Nice sitting in Ivory tower looking down. 

Im not SF nor for violence.

If you believe that, then neither has Sinn Fein's leadership

The majority of the Catholic population of the north apparently had no idea what it was like to live there, given they didn't vote for Sinn Fein and didn't support the IRA

How exactly did you reach that conclusion? Not voting SF or supporting the PIRA/INLA or whoever does not mean they have no idea what it was like to live here

Of course it doesn't, but then again I was basically told I hadn't a clue simply for pointing out that the PIRA campaign achieved nothing except societal devastation

Seems most of the northern Catholic population who lived through the PIRA campaign agreed with me

[tonto1888]

This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..

All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading

Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!

Now the narrative is the opposite!

Yis are fierce confused 

SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused

I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation

But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory

So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused

Confusion, I suppose

You've literally no idea of life in the north, none, you're assessment is based on living in the south.

Be like me assessing what life would have been like without having my bag searched on way to school house being searched, intimidating work environments, job inequality, no housing, gerrymandering, I  could go on.

Nice sitting in Ivory tower looking down. 

Im not SF nor for violence.

If you believe that, then neither has Sinn Fein's leadership

The majority of the Catholic population of the north apparently had no idea what it was like to live there, given they didn't vote for Sinn Fein and didn't support the IRA

I believe you've no idea, unless you can provide me with your time, you life in the north. Your experience of the north consisted of?

Ah, the old "you don't live here" excuse beloved of the Trump cultists

I wasn't aware you had to live anywhere in particular to know that murdering civilians is wrong, but sure you learn something new every day

The same Shinners and nationalists who wheel out these weasel words are generally the same ones who have extremely strong views on politics in the Republic, but by their own logic they have no right to hold any views on politics in the Republic

Partitionists when it suits them and anti-partitionists when it doesn't 

Some rabbit hole that

Well that's a lie. You have all the hallmarks of a Trumpist.

But it's not a lie

Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north

But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics

Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you

After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted

More hypocrisy

I believe anyone in Ireland can have a view in any part of the country. It should be an informed view though and not just orepearing things you have read or heard

[grounded]

This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..

All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading

Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!

Now the narrative is the opposite!

Yis are fierce confused 

SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused

I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation

But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory

So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused

Confusion, I suppose

Sid,

Honest question. Has reading any of the input from other posters on this thread, the Sinn Fein thread or the US thread ever enlightened  or caused you to re-evaluate your beliefs? 
       Surely the whole point of debate is to try and sway (at least some people to your line of thinking) and simultaneously trying to understand the other point of view and to theoretically (at least ) leave yourself open to be swayed the other way.
         
       

I'm always re-evaluating my beliefs

I certainly haven't been in any way swayed by any debate from Shinners, Trumpists or conservative Catholics on this forum because the standard of knowledge and debate is so low from them, and the bad faith is even worse

Right, so by insulting them do you think you will sway them over to your beliefs?
      Do you think you have swayed or influenced the other posters?
     
If the answer is ' i don't care what they think '
   Wtf is the point of debating on this forum. What do you hope to achieve bar convincing yourself you are right all the time?
   

[sid waddell]

Nationalism is a disease.

I thoroughly agree

Plenty of posters here waaaay down that rabbit hole

Agreed. Amazing what can be justified in the the name of nationalism

Is there a country in the world that isn't infected?

Exactly. And it has been like that for centuries. The difference now is that Social Media gives everyone an equal platform. Individually, we have to learn how to consume, make sense of the tidal wave of messages and guage the norm. For their own sanity, the middle ground tend not to get involved in online debates.

Perhaps the reason the middle ground tend not to get involved in online debates about this topic is that when they do, they get called "West Brits" and "Ruth Dudley Edwards"

[tonto1888]

This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..

All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading

Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!

Now the narrative is the opposite!

Yis are fierce confused 

SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused

I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation

But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory

So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused

Confusion, I suppose

You've literally no idea of life in the north, none, you're assessment is based on living in the south.

Be like me assessing what life would have been like without having my bag searched on way to school house being searched, intimidating work environments, job inequality, no housing, gerrymandering, I  could go on.

Nice sitting in Ivory tower looking down. 

Im not SF nor for violence.

If you believe that, then neither has Sinn Fein's leadership

The majority of the Catholic population of the north apparently had no idea what it was like to live there, given they didn't vote for Sinn Fein and didn't support the IRA

How exactly did you reach that conclusion? Not voting SF or supporting the PIRA/INLA or whoever does not mean they have no idea what it was like to live here

Of course it doesn't, but then again I was basically told I hadn't a clue simply for pointing out that the PIRA campaign achieved nothing except societal devastation

Seems most of the northern Catholic population who lived through the PIRA campaign agreed with me

I would say without the Provos campaign, the brits would not have coke to the negotiating table. That doesn't make everything they done ok or right. And in no way diminished the contributions of great men such as Hume and Mallon.

[Milltown Row2]

That's a lot of assuming there Sid..

But if anyone has a view on things in the south or America (Wtf) you've all the answers! How ta f**k to you get that head through the door or lift it off the bed?

[sid waddell]

That's a lot of assuming there Sid..

But if anyone has a view on things in the south or America (Wtf) you've all the answers! How ta f**k to you get that head through the door or lift it off the bed?

But I don't have all the answers and never have claimed to

That'd generally be the Shinners and the Trumpists

I certainly don't have all the answers about Republic of Ireland politics

I give my opinions and people are entitled to disagree with them

Most people who disagree with my opinions just fire names around though

And they aren't entitled to their own facts

Understandably I don't find that very persuasive

[sid waddell]

This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..

All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading

Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!

Now the narrative is the opposite!

Yis are fierce confused 

SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused

I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation

But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory

So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused

Confusion, I suppose

Sid,

Honest question. Has reading any of the input from other posters on this thread, the Sinn Fein thread or the US thread ever enlightened  or caused you to re-evaluate your beliefs? 
       Surely the whole point of debate is to try and sway (at least some people to your line of thinking) and simultaneously trying to understand the other point of view and to theoretically (at least ) leave yourself open to be swayed the other way.
         
       

I'm always re-evaluating my beliefs

I certainly haven't been in any way swayed by any debate from Shinners, Trumpists or conservative Catholics on this forum because the standard of knowledge and debate is so low from them, and the bad faith is even worse

Right, so by insulting them do you think you will sway them over to your beliefs?
      Do you think you have swayed or influenced the other posters?
     
If the answer is ' i don't care what they think '
   Wtf is the point of debating on this forum. What do you hope to achieve bar convincing yourself you are right all the time?
   

I think you'll find I receive far more insults than I dish out and any insults I dish out are generally more than merited

I wouldn't debate opinions if I didn't think I was right

Why would anybody

Instead of moaning about my opinions, say why they're wrong

Very few people do that, far easier to just shout "Ruth Dudley Edwards" or "West Brit" or say I don't have a right to an opinion

That's persuasive, yeah

[sid waddell]

This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..

All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading

Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!

Now the narrative is the opposite!

Yis are fierce confused 

SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused

I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation

But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory

So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused

Confusion, I suppose

You've literally no idea of life in the north, none, you're assessment is based on living in the south.

Be like me assessing what life would have been like without having my bag searched on way to school house being searched, intimidating work environments, job inequality, no housing, gerrymandering, I  could go on.

Nice sitting in Ivory tower looking down. 

Im not SF nor for violence.

If you believe that, then neither has Sinn Fein's leadership

The majority of the Catholic population of the north apparently had no idea what it was like to live there, given they didn't vote for Sinn Fein and didn't support the IRA

How exactly did you reach that conclusion? Not voting SF or supporting the PIRA/INLA or whoever does not mean they have no idea what it was like to live here

Of course it doesn't, but then again I was basically told I hadn't a clue simply for pointing out that the PIRA campaign achieved nothing except societal devastation

Seems most of the northern Catholic population who lived through the PIRA campaign agreed with me

I would say without the Provos campaign, the brits would not have coke to the negotiating table. That doesn't make everything they done ok or right. And in no way diminished the contributions of great men such as Hume and Mallon.

Even in the hypothetical event the Unionists/Brits hadn't come to the negotiating table before 1998, a peaceful strategy would probably still have saved well over 3,000 lives, which in and of itself would have been a very good thing

Nobody can say exactly what would have happened without the PIRA, but the view that without them things would have remained the same in Northern Ireland between 1969 and 1998 is quite the fringe one I would suggest

The momentum for Civil Rights and a free and fair society would likely have soon proved unstoppable had killing not taken over as the modus operandi, I would suspect

The one thing that makes opponents of a free and fair society dig in to prevent it, is mass killing

Nowhere exists in a vacuum - but what can create a vacuum and kill the chance for peaceful advance through politics, for a long, long time at least, is mass killing and sustained violence

[sid waddell]

This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..

All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading

Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!

Now the narrative is the opposite!

Yis are fierce confused 

SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused

I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation

But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory

So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused

Confusion, I suppose

You've literally no idea of life in the north, none, you're assessment is based on living in the south.

Be like me assessing what life would have been like without having my bag searched on way to school house being searched, intimidating work environments, job inequality, no housing, gerrymandering, I  could go on.

Nice sitting in Ivory tower looking down. 

Im not SF nor for violence.

If you believe that, then neither has Sinn Fein's leadership

The majority of the Catholic population of the north apparently had no idea what it was like to live there, given they didn't vote for Sinn Fein and didn't support the IRA

I believe you've no idea, unless you can provide me with your time, you life in the north. Your experience of the north consisted of?

Ah, the old "you don't live here" excuse beloved of the Trump cultists

I wasn't aware you had to live anywhere in particular to know that murdering civilians is wrong, but sure you learn something new every day

The same Shinners and nationalists who wheel out these weasel words are generally the same ones who have extremely strong views on politics in the Republic, but by their own logic they have no right to hold any views on politics in the Republic

Partitionists when it suits them and anti-partitionists when it doesn't 

Some rabbit hole that

Well that's a lie. You have all the hallmarks of a Trumpist.

But it's not a lie

Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north

But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics

Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you

After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted

More hypocrisy

I believe anyone in Ireland can have a view in any part of the country. It should be an informed view though and not just orepearing things you have read or heard

The problem here is that my opinions are informed and a certain breed of northern nationalist doesn't like that

Hence the arrival of the thought police to threads, and the re-education attempts

You form opinions through reading, hearing, watching and listening, to say otherwise would be to say that nobody here has a right to have an opinion on the Nazis because nobody here has personal experience of being oppressed by them

That would be to say that there should be no such thing as historians