Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact

[lenny]

Have we any proof that MH "forced" his players to say the Rosary?
Maybe they all agreed?
Maybe he just asked them?

Maybe he did. I don't know the man or the players involved personally. Would they feel free to say "ah no Mickey, I can see your faith means a lot to you, but I'll pass if you don't mind"?

The discussion is proceeding on the premise that it was forced or expected, whether in reality it was or not. I can't speak for others, but I've qualified my statements in those terms, that it is more about the principle than the actual reality which I am not personally privy to.

However, in this day and age, I'd be shocked if all of those people were enthusiastic participants. I'd imagine at least some resented it, some were bored and endured it as a small price to pay for getting on the team, and others found value in it.

Totally agree with this point. I'd imagine the players would have felt it was something they had to do and couldn't say no. Quite a few may have been enthusiastic but I'm pretty sure there would've been a number who completely resented it. A bit like the "rte ban" the players felt they couldn't think for themselves and defy micky.

[J70]

So are we saying that saying the rosary is equivalent to standing for the national anthem or wearing the words "Abbey Hotel" or "Arnotts" or "insert real controversial company name here" on your shirt??

Colin Kaepernick has been effectively black listed in the NFL now as owners, in a league bereft of quarterback talent, don't want to deal with the publicity associated with his national anthem protests. Is that a fair fate for the Gaelic football player who raises his head above the parapet and tells his manager, justifiably, that the manager's and his own religious beliefs and practices are private, personal issues and should be left at home?

Anthems can be controversial. We all know that from the NI team and the Irish rugby team, but that controversy comes from issues of inclusiveness. Justifying the saying of the rosary with the fact that Neil Lennon had to stand for GSTQ is hardly a ringing endorsement.

[Esmarelda]

So are we saying that saying the rosary is equivalent to standing for the national anthem or wearing the words "Abbey Hotel" or "Arnotts" or "insert real controversial company name here" on your shirt??

Colin Kaepernick has been effectively black listed in the NFL now as owners, in a league bereft of quarterback talent, don't want to deal with the publicity associated with his national anthem protests. Is that a fair fate for the Gaelic football player who raises his head above the parapet and tells his manager, justifiably, that the manager's and his own religious beliefs and practices are private, personal issues and should be left at home?

Anthems can be controversial. We all know that from the NI team and the Irish rugby team, but that controversy comes from issues of inclusiveness. Justifying the saying of the rosary with the fact that Neil Lennon had to stand for GSTQ is hardly a ringing endorsement.

I don't think it's fair. I was just agreeing with the right to object to it. I also disagree if Harte made some players pray or go to mass.

[sensethetone]

So are we saying that saying the rosary is equivalent to standing for the national anthem or wearing the words "Abbey Hotel" or "Arnotts" or "insert real controversial company name here" on your shirt??

Colin Kaepernick has been effectively black listed in the NFL now as owners, in a league bereft of quarterback talent, don't want to deal with the publicity associated with his national anthem protests. Is that a fair fate for the Gaelic football player who raises his head above the parapet and tells his manager, justifiably, that the manager's and his own religious beliefs and practices are private, personal issues and should be left at home?

Anthems can be controversial. We all know that from the NI team and the Irish rugby team, but that controversy comes from issues of inclusiveness. Justifying the saying of the rosary with the fact that Neil Lennon had to stand for GSTQ is hardly a ringing endorsement.

I don't think it's fair. I was just agreeing with the right to object to it. I also disagree if Harte made some players pray or go to mass.

Has Harte forced anyone to pray or go to mass? certainly nobody should be forced.

[Franko]

So are we saying that saying the rosary is equivalent to standing for the national anthem or wearing the words "Abbey Hotel" or "Arnotts" or "insert real controversial company name here" on your shirt??

Colin Kaepernick has been effectively black listed in the NFL now as owners, in a league bereft of quarterback talent, don't want to deal with the publicity associated with his national anthem protests. Is that a fair fate for the Gaelic football player who raises his head above the parapet and tells his manager, justifiably, that the manager's and his own religious beliefs and practices are private, personal issues and should be left at home?

Anthems can be controversial. We all know that from the NI team and the Irish rugby team, but that controversy comes from issues of inclusiveness. Justifying the saying of the rosary with the fact that Neil Lennon had to stand for GSTQ is hardly a ringing endorsement.

I think you need to calm down and get a little perspective here.  None of the players have come out and said they were against it (opposite in fact) and people on this thread are running round creating whole "other world" hypothetical scenarios where Harte is going to kick boys off the panel for not doing it. 

PS.  I really dislike Harte but if this is how he wants to manage the team that's his call.

[The Iceman]

this thread is a good representative of all that is wrong with the internet,
it should be saved in a museum with the label how social media Died

the board is a joke these days. I really only read posts now and rarely contribute.  I lie the banter with the lads on the NFL fantasy football thread and read the local gaa news but it's hard to interact otherwise.
Theres a lot of lads with axes to grind and old arguments that were never settled that spill in to every thread.
The ongoing anti-religion theme running through everything is saddening.  A lot of ones arguing for the sake of it and commenting just to get a rise out of ones.
Everyone needs to take responsibility  - we're all part of the problem but we're all part of the solution too.

The divide on the board is not about the religious v anti religionists, it is about people who believe that rationalism and logic should supercede irrationalism, non-evidence based beliefs (which covers a huge swath of areas beside religion) and cultural/social/religious discrimination in human relationships and interactions.

The fact of the matter is, that there are plenty of people with religious faith who reside in the former category as well as atheists, whilst, unfortunately, the latter category is almost exclusively made up of members who claim a strong faith in God. Which makes it easy to frame an argument about rational choices as an attack on religion.

I do agree that the board has gone to hell (figuratively, not literally - I'm a card carrying agnostic). And men of goodwill should be able to frame an argument about the use of religion without disrespecting the concept of religion (which I believe happened here). Inversely, they should be able to accept that a desire for a fact based discussion is not an attack on faith.

The Jock Stein thing is a complete red herring - we live in a different (and I believe a better) world than 60s Glasgow. An elite athlete walking into a dressing room expects to see elements of sports psychology, whether they want to use it or not (and they should have a choice). However, the use of a specific religious prayer as part of a pre-match routine, is definitely not routine, is not inclusive, and should not be used in that context.

The only excuse for its use would be if the group itself thought it might aid them and suggested it to Harte. Others above have mentioned the unlikely odds of all members of the Tyrone panel being devout Catholics. Again, if you reside in a non-rational world, you will ignore this. You don't have to be religious to reside there.

I doubt it caused Tyrone to lose. That was definitely because God blessed Dublin with some super footballers.

You open your argument with no room for compromise. I'm smart you are stupid. I live in a rational world you do not. I belief in evidence you do not.  Those are some major leaps and leave no room in your world for discussion.

That is what is wrong with the board.  It's the ongoing theme running through most threads. Digs at people here and there.  The attitude of superiority because we're rational and logic....Comments to get a rise from people. I rarely get involved because there is no point anymore. But despite all of your jumping up and down at my "stupidity", my faith remains strong....

I agree that people should not be forced to pray. I'd love to know if that really was the case in the Tyrone dressing room or if it's merely speculation.  I do know that at the underage level there are strong ties between the local parish, Catholicism and Gaelic sports. Who knows if the lads actually on the team wanted to go along with it. I'd love to hear from someone actually involved.  And if some didn't want to pray, what provision was made for them and what affect did it have on them or the team? All questions nobody here, so far, has been able to answer.

I don't know if you would talk to random people you met in a bar or in your work place the way you talk on here. I've rarely seen in real life what I've read on here.  People are very comfortable hiding behind the security of a screen and the anonymity of the internet. I will say that over the years many of the longer time posters have made an effort to get to know each other (even a little bit) through IM or on FB or in person and it makes such a difference.  We can still disagree afterwards and we still do in most cases but we disagree with civility and respect, not scorn and ridicule.

[J70]

So are we saying that saying the rosary is equivalent to standing for the national anthem or wearing the words "Abbey Hotel" or "Arnotts" or "insert real controversial company name here" on your shirt??

Colin Kaepernick has been effectively black listed in the NFL now as owners, in a league bereft of quarterback talent, don't want to deal with the publicity associated with his national anthem protests. Is that a fair fate for the Gaelic football player who raises his head above the parapet and tells his manager, justifiably, that the manager's and his own religious beliefs and practices are private, personal issues and should be left at home?

Anthems can be controversial. We all know that from the NI team and the Irish rugby team, but that controversy comes from issues of inclusiveness. Justifying the saying of the rosary with the fact that Neil Lennon had to stand for GSTQ is hardly a ringing endorsement.

I think you need to calm down and get a little perspective here.  None of the players have come out and said they were against it (opposite in fact) and people on this thread are running round creating whole "other world" hypothetical scenarios where Harte is going to kick boys off the panel for not doing it. 

PS.  I really dislike Harte but if this is how he wants to manage the team that's his call.

First, I am very calm.

Second, I've already stated, several times, that I've no idea what the actual Tyrone-Harte situation is.

I'm not discussing that - I'm discussing the principle, the idea that players would be required to take part in religious rituals or prayers or other routines or ceremonies as a condition of membership of a squad.

[tonto1888]

How true is it that Harte is making the players say the rosary? And by saying the rosary is he actually making each player individually say a couple of Hail Marys or is he happy for them to stand with their head bowed while he does a decade?

[easytiger95]

this thread is a good representative of all that is wrong with the internet,
it should be saved in a museum with the label how social media Died

the board is a joke these days. I really only read posts now and rarely contribute.  I lie the banter with the lads on the NFL fantasy football thread and read the local gaa news but it's hard to interact otherwise.
Theres a lot of lads with axes to grind and old arguments that were never settled that spill in to every thread.
The ongoing anti-religion theme running through everything is saddening.  A lot of ones arguing for the sake of it and commenting just to get a rise out of ones.
Everyone needs to take responsibility  - we're all part of the problem but we're all part of the solution too.

The divide on the board is not about the religious v anti religionists, it is about people who believe that rationalism and logic should supercede irrationalism, non-evidence based beliefs (which covers a huge swath of areas beside religion) and cultural/social/religious discrimination in human relationships and interactions.

The fact of the matter is, that there are plenty of people with religious faith who reside in the former category as well as atheists, whilst, unfortunately, the latter category is almost exclusively made up of members who claim a strong faith in God. Which makes it easy to frame an argument about rational choices as an attack on religion.

I do agree that the board has gone to hell (figuratively, not literally - I'm a card carrying agnostic). And men of goodwill should be able to frame an argument about the use of religion without disrespecting the concept of religion (which I believe happened here). Inversely, they should be able to accept that a desire for a fact based discussion is not an attack on faith.

The Jock Stein thing is a complete red herring - we live in a different (and I believe a better) world than 60s Glasgow. An elite athlete walking into a dressing room expects to see elements of sports psychology, whether they want to use it or not (and they should have a choice). However, the use of a specific religious prayer as part of a pre-match routine, is definitely not routine, is not inclusive, and should not be used in that context.

The only excuse for its use would be if the group itself thought it might aid them and suggested it to Harte. Others above have mentioned the unlikely odds of all members of the Tyrone panel being devout Catholics. Again, if you reside in a non-rational world, you will ignore this. You don't have to be religious to reside there.

I doubt it caused Tyrone to lose. That was definitely because God blessed Dublin with some super footballers.

You open your argument with no room for compromise. I'm smart you are stupid. I live in a rational world you do not. I belief in evidence you do not.  Those are some major leaps and leave no room in your world for discussion.

That is what is wrong with the board.  It's the ongoing theme running through most threads. Digs at people here and there.  The attitude of superiority because we're rational and logic....Comments to get a rise from people. I rarely get involved because there is no point anymore. But despite all of your jumping up and down at my "stupidity", my faith remains strong....

I agree that people should not be forced to pray. I'd love to know if that really was the case in the Tyrone dressing room or if it's merely speculation.  I do know that at the underage level there are strong ties between the local parish, Catholicism and Gaelic sports. Who knows if the lads actually on the team wanted to go along with it. I'd love to hear from someone actually involved.  And if some didn't want to pray, what provision was made for them and what affect did it have on them or the team? All questions nobody here, so far, has been able to answer.

I don't know if you would talk to random people you met in a bar or in your work place the way you talk on here. I've rarely seen in real life what I've read on here.  People are very comfortable hiding behind the security of a screen and the anonymity of the internet. I will say that over the years many of the longer time posters have made an effort to get to know each other (even a little bit) through IM or on FB or in person and it makes such a difference.  We can still disagree afterwards and we still do in most cases but we disagree with civility and respect, not scorn and ridicule.

Jesus Christ, talk about missing the point. If you read what I actually said, it was there is a divide on the board, between those who prefer evidence based arguments (about anything) and those who don't. The "those who don't" are mainly made up of people of faith, but that doesn't excuse disregarding rationalism. I also said there are plenty of people of faith who do embrace rationalism. I also made it clear that one of the main things that divides the board is people of faith(who are against evidence based arguments) claiming an argument from rationalism was an attack on their faith. No matter what the subject. As this subject clearly illustrates.

This topic is not an argument against faith. It is an argument against evangelising that faith in (what I believe to be) inappropriate cirumstances.
This is all about punching down - any member of the squad who did have reservations about saying the rosary, would find it difficult to raise those complaints, simply because MH is the boss essentially. It doesn't mean that he was doing it deliberately or maliciously or in a bigoted way - he just forgot that there might be others there who feel differently to him, and even if there wasn't, down the road there could be. So in effect, it is about respect for individuals, rather than those individuals religious feelings. At worst, inappropriate, but definitely worth having the discussion over.

You'll also have to point out where I called you "stupid" in the post quoted above, as I take it that your use of the word in inverted commas means that I have?

I started my post with my analysis of the "divide" that I agreed (with you) had opened up on the board. It was you who placed yourself on the side of the divide that you - you - have labelled "stupid". I was actually leaving space for you to argue, because I appreciated the tone of your post and I dislike anyone being attacked for reason of their faith, as anyone who has read my contributions over the years knows. Where I will argue is when the end result of that faith is to cause actions which have material damage on people or cultures. Otherwise you can worship who, when and where you please.

It might interest you to know that I have been posting on this board a long time before your appearance, usually in the same tone and about the same subjects, that I feel passionately about. The only two things that have changed since 2001 and now is that the Dubs win now and I have lost a lot of my sense of humour about these things. Because I really have seen this board go downhill, I really have seen people come on here, and use the same brash disregard for truth and rationalism that characterised the rise of buffoons like Johnson, Le Pen, Trump et al. (and right now my spidey sense is tingling that Omaghjoe is about to unleash another philosophically convoluted essay about what I should believe truth or rationalism to be, completely disregarding the simple premise that people should not be asked to participate in religious ceremonies as prerequisites to sporting activities - can't wait to read it).

It almost might interest you to know that I turned up at the one and only Gadderin' of the Board, back in the 2000s. I also have revealed my real name on this board, my occupation, and received help and advice from many of its members. I don't hide my face here and I don't hide my opinions.

As I pointed out above, I never used the word "stupid" with regard to you in my previous post. It would be churlish to point out, that given your misreading of my post, that I'm more than willing to do so now. So let me finish with this - whenever you're in Dublin, you're more than welcome to PM to meet and continue the conversation face to face. I might be funnier in person, you never know.

[AZOffaly]

Most of lads on this board were dead sound when I met them. It's a bit sad the way it's gone here in the past few years. Argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. It's getting to be a tiring place. If it wasn't for the odd good chat, I doubt I'd bother any more.

[The Iceman]

sorry easytiger most of that wasnt directed at you - i took the opportunity to vent my frustrations and it wasn't directly pointed at you even though it was in reply to you initially

its difficult to be a believer on this board - because it is my life I can't stand idly by when people throw it in the gutter and spout lies about it. I am very logical and rational and I'm a Catholic. Some people don't believe those can co-exist and angrily go on the offense in unrelated threads.

I did agree in this instance that those who don't want to pray should not be forced to. If thats the case here it is wrong but I don't want to speculate. I am not in the tryone team and dont know anyone who would speak to it who is.

I echo AZs comments. It is harder and harder to stick around. When it's good its great but most of the time it's saddening

[tonto1888]

sorry easytiger most of that wasnt directed at you - i took the opportunity to vent my frustrations and it wasn't directly pointed at you even though it was in reply to you initially

its difficult to be a believer on this board - because it is my life I can't stand idly by when people throw it in the gutter and spout lies about it. I am very logical and rational and I'm a Catholic. Some people don't believe those can co-exist and angrily go on the offense in unrelated threads.

I did agree in this instance that those who don't want to pray should not be forced to. If thats the case here it is wrong but I don't want to speculate. I am not in the tryone team and dont know anyone who would speak to it who is.

I echo AZs comments. It is harder and harder to stick around. When it's good its great but most of the time it's saddening

I know you are coming from. I've a degree in Astrophysics and am a catholic who has faith. Sometimes I find it hard to marry the two myself never mind others doing it

[easytiger95]

sorry easytiger most of that wasnt directed at you - i took the opportunity to vent my frustrations and it wasn't directly pointed at you even though it was in reply to you initially

its difficult to be a believer on this board - because it is my life I can't stand idly by when people throw it in the gutter and spout lies about it. I am very logical and rational and I'm a Catholic. Some people don't believe those can co-exist and angrily go on the offense in unrelated threads.

I did agree in this instance that those who don't want to pray should not be forced to. If thats the case here it is wrong but I don't want to speculate. I am not in the tryone team and dont know anyone who would speak to it who is.

I echo AZs comments. It is harder and harder to stick around. When it's good its great but most of the time it's saddening

No problem Iceman, we've definitely had our differences but I would never doubt or disparage your faith. Invitation still stands.

It has gone very bad here. I used to try and make an effort to write the odd humorous piece, I just don't see the point of it anymore. But I think, in general, I think culture has definitely got more polarised.

[omaghjoe]

ALright I will give it a rest here obviously not going to gain anything more one this, and between weans and work I dont have the time these days any road.

But I will depart the subject by saying that I believe Harte is well within his rights to try whatever method he sees fit as long as he and is players see value in it, there should be no exclusion to anything legal.

I acknowledge that I post on faith matters quite a bit, funnily enuff I wouldnt classify myself as a real HolyJoe or anything but I do feel that alot of the antifaith posts on here are not thought out and the rationale not applied equally to other things that are taken for granted. So, I challenge those posts and while I get a lot of flack I dont care because logic trumps all and its perfectly apparent to me that many if not all anti religious posters on here do not apply their rationale equally, probably without realising it TBF.

I have to say I do get a bit tetchy with some posters. And i do enjoy these long discussions with opposing views, J70 and Esmerlda in particular (and actually Muppet too when he was about believe it or not) are good value. They at least appear open to the logic of the conversation even if they (J70 in particular! ;P) are never going to change his mind.
Alot of the other commenters are self righteous and prepared to oppose you on every sentence because you disagree or challenge their views. And then they start at the idiotic ad hominen which I used to ignore as its pretty stupid but we are susceptable to getting sucked into that trap.
But its tough luck for them, as logic is what it is and if you apply it to one thing then you have to apply it to the other.

BTW lads this is a anonymous discussion board. If you dont like that join a non-anonymous one or declare you name like Fearon, who cares FFS?

[omaghjoe]

sorry easytiger most of that wasnt directed at you - i took the opportunity to vent my frustrations and it wasn't directly pointed at you even though it was in reply to you initially

its difficult to be a believer on this board - because it is my life I can't stand idly by when people throw it in the gutter and spout lies about it. I am very logical and rational and I'm a Catholic. Some people don't believe those can co-exist and angrily go on the offense in unrelated threads.

I did agree in this instance that those who don't want to pray should not be forced to. If thats the case here it is wrong but I don't want to speculate. I am not in the tryone team and dont know anyone who would speak to it who is.

I echo AZs comments. It is harder and harder to stick around. When it's good its great but most of the time it's saddening

I know you are coming from. I've a degree in Astrophysics and am a catholic who has faith. Sometimes I find it hard to marry the two myself never mind others doing it

Laws of the universe?

....or are there actaully none at all... what the feck is dark Matter? Is it in us also? Why does it only noticeable with Gravity at macro levels...What the feck is gravity anyway?
Considering Spacetime what do you think of the Block Universe/Eternalisim?
IF you could start a new thread titled Cosmoslogy might be a good place to hear your thoughts on all this stuff?