Cookstown Incident

Started by oakleaflad, March 18, 2019, 12:43:55 AM

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Frank_The_Tank

#210
Is it the Police to blame for the arrest or is it everyone who read the original police and media statements and put 2 and 2 together and got whatever conclusion they wanted.

The original police statement said a man was arrested on suspicion of possession of class a drug with intent to supply.  They key word being suspicion - yet most comments on this thread and majority of comments I seen on social media had changed that to being drugs found.  Police partly to blame but people who read a statement and then change or Chinese whisper that statement to not include a key part of the statement are as bad.
Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience

WT4E

No Police to blame in my opinion frank

Walter Cronc

Sorry lads. My point was when Mark Hamilton stood outside the Greenvale he mentioned some attendees being underage. Call me cynical but I just felt they were washing their hands off it - acting as if they didn't know. As for crowd control etc, over the years cops cars have came into the Greenvale car park. I can definitely remember that from going to socials. They didn't appear overly worried with line ups then.

BennyHarp

Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on March 20, 2019, 09:42:20 PM
Is it the Police to blame for the arrest or is it everyone who read the original police and media statements and put 2 and 2 together and got whatever conclusion they wanted.

The original police statement said a man was arrested on suspicion of possession of class a drug with intent to supply.  They key word being suspicion - yet every person who had commented on this thread changed that to being drugs found.  Police partly to blame but people who read a statement and then change or Chinese whisper that statement to not include a key part of the statement are as bad.

I don't know how these things work but I would have thought, given the sensitive and emotive nature of this particular incident, that they could have waited until their express forensic team had ascertained what the substance actually was before releasing any sort of statement on the matter. I suspect the police knew only too well what way their statement would be interpreted.
That was never a square ball!!

WT4E

Quote from: Walter Cronc on March 20, 2019, 09:49:57 PM
Sorry lads. My point was when Mark Hamilton stood outside the Greenvale he mentioned some attendees being underage. Call me cynical but I just felt they were washing their hands off it - acting as if they didn't know. As for crowd control etc, over the years cops cars have came into the Greenvale car park. I can definitely remember that from going to socials. They didn't appear overly worried with line ups then.

The cops where never around the greenvale in my memory for obvious reasons. Maybe back when they wanted trouble but not in my time (the early 00's) I remember hearing that a mother had rang the police to ask to go up to sort out some fighting and they refused as they said that they would only make things worst which was probably the right call.

Gold

Quote from: GetOverTheBar on March 20, 2019, 06:16:12 PM
Quote from: Ty4Sam on March 20, 2019, 06:08:39 PM
He has been dearrested now, what a shambles from the Police. Have they no compassion for the families of the kids?

A very serious issue has descended into farce.

Absolute f**king farce

Police shouldnt have touched this to next week after the funerals. The owner and other boy are not flight risks...families did not need this shite and people saying to them about the drugs arrest etc. Total rank amateur, insensitive, shite.

PSNI are poor as f**k at times. Very few bright minds in this part of the world want to grow up and be a cop...hence the distinct brainpower deficit in that organisation
"Cheeky Charlie McKenna..."

Eamonnca1

Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 09:53:46 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on March 20, 2019, 09:49:57 PM
Sorry lads. My point was when Mark Hamilton stood outside the Greenvale he mentioned some attendees being underage. Call me cynical but I just felt they were washing their hands off it - acting as if they didn't know. As for crowd control etc, over the years cops cars have came into the Greenvale car park. I can definitely remember that from going to socials. They didn't appear overly worried with line ups then.

The cops where never around the greenvale in my memory for obvious reasons. Maybe back when they wanted trouble but not in my time (the early 00's) I remember hearing that a mother had rang the police to ask to go up to sort out some fighting and they refused as they said that they would only make things worst which was probably the right call.

Reminds me of a caller on Talkback years ago. Some thugs were causing trouble at a parade, so he went to the cops and told them about it. The cops refused to intervene, saying "sure if we tried to do anything about it, they'd just wreck the town."

Makes you wonder what's the point of having law enforcement if they're not going to bother their heads enforcing the law. Only in Ireland do I ever see this defeatist attitude from cops.

cornerback

Quote from: Walter Cronc on March 20, 2019, 09:49:57 PM
Sorry lads. My point was when Mark Hamilton stood outside the Greenvale he mentioned some attendees being underage. Call me cynical but I just felt they were washing their hands off it - acting as if they didn't know. As for crowd control etc, over the years cops cars have came into the Greenvale car park. I can definitely remember that from going to socials. They didn't appear overly worried with line ups then.
I was at a social (probably 1997) were the police actually came in & walked around the entire room, area around the bar went from packed to totally cleared in no time at all. No alcohol sold for the rest of the night unless you'd ID to show you were over 18. Fake IDs not as prevalent back then so very little trade done that night!!!
Police knew that these events were full of underage teenagers over 20 years ago!!

Milltown Row2

It's not so much fake ID, they get friends who are 18 and borrow their real ID providing there is a likeness, and as far as bouncers are concerned they have checked and job done..

It's not like the states, I was 21 and had to show my ID to the same barman and off-licence every night!
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

gallsman

If the cops had shut down the Greenvale or any other local spot before this tragedy occurred, the same lads insisting they're accountable would be banging on about poor McElhatton being harassed and persecuted by the PSNIRUC.

Post hoc ergo proctor hoc

sid waddell

Underage drinking has precisely nothing to do with what happened at the Greenvale Hotel.

It wouldn't have mattered whether the crowd had all been intoxicated Rangers hooligans over for a friendly match against an ex-LVF XI.

The same duty of care to put proper safety measures in place for whoever turns up at the door would apply.


Armagh18

Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on March 20, 2019, 09:42:20 PM
Is it the Police to blame for the arrest or is it everyone who read the original police and media statements and put 2 and 2 together and got whatever conclusion they wanted.

The original police statement said a man was arrested on suspicion of possession of class a drug with intent to supply.  They key word being suspicion - yet most comments on this thread and majority of comments I seen on social media had changed that to being drugs found.  Police partly to blame but people who read a statement and then change or Chinese whisper that statement to not include a key part of the statement are as bad.
It's 100% the polices fault. Why arrest him on suspicion of the drugs charges at all given the circumstances unless they had actually found drugs? Making themselves look even more incompetent than people already think they are.

GetOverTheBar

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 20, 2019, 09:39:25 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on March 20, 2019, 09:19:45 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on March 20, 2019, 08:10:20 PM
Not sure if already mentioned but surely the police have to be held accountable here. The dogs on the street knew about underage drinking at the greenvale this past 20 years.

Ah look, I'm no lover of the police but they've more important things to be at than a weekly raid of every bar in every town in the country. It is what it is. The police can't be held accountable for young ones getting steamed before they even set foot in/on a premises. Simply can't be done - the horse has bolted on that. It's simply unavoidable at this stage - I mean I've seen police shut down bars in Dungannon/Cookstown and Omagh over Easter Sunday but bar that - that's it. They simply don't have the numbers for what is a task that is well, well down the list.

I don't mean that to sound in any way disrespectful to the victims - nor do I intend to cause offence but whilst I get your point, what realistically can be done bar forming local groups and policing the matter themselves? Maybe that's something they talk of at these policing board meetings (do they even happen anymore?) I couldn't tell you.

Then what do the police think their job is? If they're not going to do it then what's the point in having them?

Vigilante groups is hardly the answer.

I didn't say it wasn't their job, I said they have much bigger issues to deal with versus an obvious lack of resources to do so

So like you or I would do in our weekly workload you prioritize accordingly, I'm sure no Chief Inspector tortures the rank and file about lifting underage drinking.

Milltown Row2

There were a catalogue of events that has made this happen, but fundamentally, not ensuring that people are queued correctly and safely is one major factor.

No poster on here was actually at it, second hand evidence isn't to be trusted. So while everyone has a view I'd wait until the HSE and police come up with some facts before giving a balanced view on it.

None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

Armagh18

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 20, 2019, 10:58:49 PM
There were a catalogue of events that has made this happen, but fundamentally, not ensuring that people are queued correctly and safely is one major factor.

No poster on here was actually at it, second hand evidence isn't to be trusted. So while everyone has a view I'd wait until the HSE and police come up with some facts before giving a balanced view on it.
Agreed. However your point about queuing correctly applies across the board which is why I am reluctant to criticise the owner. Like I've said previously, a tragedy like this could happen at any venue in the country on any big night. Hopefully changes in attitudes to queuing systems are brougt in across the board in the aftermath of this.