Cookstown Incident

Started by oakleaflad, March 18, 2019, 12:43:55 AM

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GetOverTheBar

Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 09:43:55 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on March 20, 2019, 07:56:30 AM
Kid drinking would have a lot to do with it.  Gross negligence may be the cause or may not, but its as likely that the cause was those who were pushing the crowd forward for what they probably thought was a bit of craic.

Quote from: RedHand88 on March 20, 2019, 08:14:06 AM
There's alot of nervous teenagers knowing full well what they did, waiting on a knock on the door.

I don't understand this train of thought.... in fact I think its disgusting/disgraceful. This is the type of rhetoric that was coming from the Sun news paper after the hillsborough disaster:

'drunken fans'
'people pushing at the back new they where killing people'

These children have been let down .... end of.

I know Mickey McElhatton to be a nice man and will be heartbroken about this... in my opinion he has been let down by his door staff.
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.

Have to agree with this - now that's certainly not in any way saying the people who died tragically are in any way attributed to that.

Perhaps this is youthful immaturity got out of hand....one pushes, then another.....5 minutes later disaster? It could really be that simple.

Obviously final responsibility comes onto the Security Company and Venue. That's for the courts to decide if they go down that path - We would all be guessing, without the information at present.

There was a Tyrone company in the 00s that had to pay about 50k as a direct result of a death if I remember correctly under 'corporate manslaughter'. I don't think a jail term has ever been handed out as a result of it.

WT4E

Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 09:43:55 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on March 20, 2019, 07:56:30 AM
Kid drinking would have a lot to do with it.  Gross negligence may be the cause or may not, but its as likely that the cause was those who were pushing the crowd forward for what they probably thought was a bit of craic.

Quote from: RedHand88 on March 20, 2019, 08:14:06 AM
There's alot of nervous teenagers knowing full well what they did, waiting on a knock on the door.

I don't understand this train of thought.... in fact I think its disgusting/disgraceful. This is the type of rhetoric that was coming from the Sun news paper after the hillsborough disaster:

'drunken fans'
'people pushing at the back new they where killing people'

These children have been let down .... end of.

I know Mickey McElhatton to be a nice man and will be heartbroken about this... in my opinion he has been let down by his door staff.
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.

The incident was cause by lack of security at an event. see the young girls facebook post.... it was the children who where trying to save the lives of other children.

So your saying all children where drunk?? including the victims?

Seany

Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general.  The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it.  400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood.  We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting.  This was an 18+ disco.  If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park?  Why did parents let them out?  Did parents know they were drinking?  Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age?  The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'.,  This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.

armaghniac

Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.

Exactly. This incident was caused by people pushing and they will likely get off scot-free. It became a tragedy because of bad layout and bad management and it is entirely appropriate that there is a thorough investigation as to why. 
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

tbrick18

Quote from: GetOverTheBar on March 20, 2019, 10:25:37 AM
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 09:43:55 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on March 20, 2019, 07:56:30 AM
Kid drinking would have a lot to do with it.  Gross negligence may be the cause or may not, but its as likely that the cause was those who were pushing the crowd forward for what they probably thought was a bit of craic.

Quote from: RedHand88 on March 20, 2019, 08:14:06 AM
There's alot of nervous teenagers knowing full well what they did, waiting on a knock on the door.

I don't understand this train of thought.... in fact I think its disgusting/disgraceful. This is the type of rhetoric that was coming from the Sun news paper after the hillsborough disaster:

'drunken fans'
'people pushing at the back new they where killing people'

These children have been let down .... end of.

I know Mickey McElhatton to be a nice man and will be heartbroken about this... in my opinion he has been let down by his door staff.
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.

Have to agree with this - now that's certainly not in any way saying the people who died tragically are in any way attributed to that.

Perhaps this is youthful immaturity got out of hand....one pushes, then another.....5 minutes later disaster? It could really be that simple.

Obviously final responsibility comes onto the Security Company and Venue. That's for the courts to decide if they go down that path - We would all be guessing, without the information at present.

There was a Tyrone company in the 00s that had to pay about 50k as a direct result of a death if I remember correctly under 'corporate manslaughter'. I don't think a jail term has ever been handed out as a result of it.

Without the facts, it's unfair to point the finger at anyone, that includes the hotel staff, owner, kids, bouncers, bus companies etc.
My own personal feeling is that there could be a portion of responsibility to all of these.

Comparing with Hillsborough is just wrong....no-one granted entry to too many people into a confined space in this instance. The kids were in a huge car part, 400 people would be lost in it. There was no lack of space, so the only thing we know for sure is that there was a queue with pushing and shoving and that resulted in tragic loss of life. We also know that some of the kids were drinking and had been there for some time before the doors were due to open. So its very possible drink was a factor. We know there was pushing and shoving, perhaps deliberate (perhaps drunken) carry on or perhaps accidental and we know there were 3 deaths and it seems it has been fortunate there were not more deaths. We don't know what staff did/didn't do, apart from reports of the owner giving CPR. We don't know what crowd control measures were or were not in place before the event.

It also should be said that the online post from the girl who was there talking about people inside doing nothing should not be considered as guaranteed fact. That view is from her perspective, she would have had no way of telling what staff did on seeing that.
Reports of the emergency services arriving within minutes, suggests staff called them.

I just think everyone needs to be careful about pointing the finger without the facts as it could influence any legal proceedings and possibly leave those families with more questions than answers. I'm sure all staff will feel responsible, as will bus companies dropping off a load of kids with drink, as will parents and anyone involved in pushing. There's no winners in this and I would hate to see anyone being tarnished with blame before the facts are out.

sid waddell

Quote from: armaghniac on March 20, 2019, 10:35:17 AM
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.

Exactly. This incident was caused by people pushing and they will likely get off scot-free. It became a tragedy because of bad layout and bad management and it is entirely appropriate that there is a thorough investigation as to why.
That's the whole point of crowd control.

You put barriers and a system in place so that the possibility of pushing, or at least the possibility of pushing causing injury or death, is eliminated.

If crowds are not controlled, some people will always push - people may push in any situation, no matter the layout.

It's up to those who own and administer the venue to eliminate the possibility any pushing can result in injury or death.

If they don't, there has to be consequences.

trailer

Quote from: armaghniac on March 20, 2019, 10:35:17 AM
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.

Exactly. This incident was caused by people pushing and they will likely get off scot-free. It became a tragedy because of bad layout and bad management and it is entirely appropriate that there is a thorough investigation as to why.

I find it unbelievable that people would want to vilify children, without knowing the full facts of what went on.
The mentality of some people on this board beggars belief.
While I understand emotions are high, it is important that a full investigation is carried out and only then people should comment on the cause, when the facts have been established.


Frank_The_Tank

Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general.  The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it.  400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood.  We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting.  This was an 18+ disco.  If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park?  Why did parents let them out?  Did parents know they were drinking?  Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age?  The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'.,  This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.

what a ridiculous post - any facts to back that up or just wild speculation on your part
Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience

belfastsaff

Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on March 20, 2019, 10:51:24 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general.  The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it.  400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood.  We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting.  This was an 18+ disco.  If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park?  Why did parents let them out?  Did parents know they were drinking?  Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age?  The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'.,  This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.

what a ridiculous post - any facts to back that up or just wild speculation on your part

I agree stupid statement blowing it out of proportion its very sad what happened and how it has went wrong but saying many of them teenagers having taken cocaine is ridiculous.

trailer

Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general.  The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it.  400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood.  We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting.  This was an 18+ disco.  If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park?  Why did parents let them out?  Did parents know they were drinking?  Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age?  The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'.,  This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.

The absolute cut of this post. Please seek help from a trained professional. You are not well in the head.

johnnycool

Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general.  The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it.  400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood.  We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting.  This was an 18+ disco.  If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park?  Why did parents let them out?  Did parents know they were drinking?  Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age?  The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'.,  This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.

We really do have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol and you're right that it's passed down from generation to generation where underage drinking is seemed as a rite of passage and "sure we all did it" makes it ok.
Most come through this phase ok but some don't and aren't mature enough to handle alcohol and binge drinking/Alcoholism develops from these formative years and replace proper social skills like holding conversations with people without being hammered.

No one wants to shout stop though.

Tubberman

Quote from: trailer on March 20, 2019, 11:03:24 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general.  The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it.  400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood.  We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting.  This was an 18+ disco.  If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park?  Why did parents let them out?  Did parents know they were drinking?  Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age?  The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'.,  This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.

The absolute cut of this post. Please seek help from a trained professional. You are not well in the head.

Other than the unsubstantiated cocaine claim, I don't see much wrong with that post.
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall."

toby47

Quote from: belfastsaff on March 20, 2019, 11:03:09 AM
Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on March 20, 2019, 10:51:24 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general.  The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it.  400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood.  We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting.  This was an 18+ disco.  If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park?  Why did parents let them out?  Did parents know they were drinking?  Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age?  The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'.,  This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.

what a ridiculous post - any facts to back that up or just wild speculation on your part

I agree stupid statement blowing it out of proportion its very sad what happened and how it has went wrong but saying many of them teenagers having taken cocaine is ridiculous.

Absolutely idiotic to mention this

Boycey

Quote from: Tubberman on March 20, 2019, 11:10:43 AM
Quote from: trailer on March 20, 2019, 11:03:24 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general.  The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it.  400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood.  We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting.  This was an 18+ disco.  If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park?  Why did parents let them out?  Did parents know they were drinking?  Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age?  The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'.,  This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.

The absolute cut of this post. Please seek help from a trained professional. You are not well in the head.

Other than the unsubstantiated cocaine claim, I don't see much wrong with that post.

Yeah I'm in agreement

oakleaflad

Quote from: Tubberman on March 20, 2019, 11:10:43 AM
Quote from: trailer on March 20, 2019, 11:03:24 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general.  The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it.  400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood.  We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting.  This was an 18+ disco.  If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park?  Why did parents let them out?  Did parents know they were drinking?  Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age?  The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'.,  This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.

The absolute cut of this post. Please seek help from a trained professional. You are not well in the head.

Other than the unsubstantiated cocaine claim, I don't see much wrong with that post.
+1

And whilst the cocaine claim is completely unsubstantiated, drugs are absolutely everywhere at the moment and are a serious problem with a large number of young people.