Sean Brady Steps Down

[muppet]

Just saying a lot of people aren't welcome, you and Tone are of the same ilk.

who isn't welcome in Church?
The RC Church welcomes everyone. The Church calls us all out of sin into a relationship with Christ. If you don't want to leave behind your sin you can't then say the church isn't making you welcome.... there's no sense in that argument whatsoever....

He is responding to the constant bashing of people who have stopped going to mass, and their subsequent showing up at funerals, having wedding in a Church etc.

I tend to agree with you overall (not wholly gone on the sin bit). The view of Jesus was as per the Prodigal Son parable imho.

The prodigal son gave up his old life but. Turned away from it. And because of that choice the Father ran to him. Ran.

I'm not sure where the constant bashing of people who have stopped going to mass happens? On the board?

It is usually Foxcommander.

[The Iceman]

If it's true,genuine and real,he's ok,according to doctrine,according to both Catholic and Protestant beliefs.

Fair enough. And when is the deadline for his repenting?

Thats the struggle of all believers Muppet. You can repent on your deathbed and if its genuine then you have hope of salvation.
Back to our old story of the prodigal son. The other brother was left a little upset about the whole thing....

The shepherd cares for us all equally but will seek out the lost sheep...

[The Iceman]

Just saying a lot of people aren't welcome, you and Tone are of the same ilk.

who isn't welcome in Church?
The RC Church welcomes everyone. The Church calls us all out of sin into a relationship with Christ. If you don't want to leave behind your sin you can't then say the church isn't making you welcome.... there's no sense in that argument whatsoever....

He is responding to the constant bashing of people who have stopped going to mass, and their subsequent showing up at funerals, having wedding in a Church etc.

I tend to agree with you overall (not wholly gone on the sin bit). The view of Jesus was as per the Prodigal Son parable imho.

The prodigal son gave up his old life but. Turned away from it. And because of that choice the Father ran to him. Ran.

I'm not sure where the constant bashing of people who have stopped going to mass happens? On the board?

It is usually Foxcommander.

thankfully none of us are the Church - just a part of it. I wouldn't be getting too bothered about what the fox says
I read somewhere or heard that thousands upon thousands of people hate what they think is the catholic church or how they understand the catholic church to be. but only hundreds actually know the church and still hate it...  could be true  - who knows.

[muppet]

If it's true,genuine and real,he's ok,according to doctrine,according to both Catholic and Protestant beliefs.

Fair enough. And when is the deadline for his repenting?

Thats the struggle of all believers Muppet. You can repent on your deathbed and if its genuine then you have hope of salvation.
Back to our old story of the prodigal son. The other brother was left a little upset about the whole thing....

The shepherd cares for us all equally but will seek out the lost sheep...

I don't have a huge problem with this line of thinking but the obvious extreme cases would cause difficultly. For example, does Stalin get off if he genuinely repents? I am not asking you as it is not fair. But you can see the difficulty.

[T Fearon]

Did not Barabas repent at the very last minute,on the cross,and was assured of salvation by the Master himself

[foxcommander]

Did not Barabas repent at the very last minute,on the cross,and was assured of salvation by the Master himself

Does anyone know if Paisley repented on his deathbed?

[The Iceman]

Did not Barabas repent at the very last minute,on the cross,and was assured of salvation by the Master himself

tony what are you talking about? If you are referring to the good thief at the crucifixion he was not assure salvatation. he was told he would join Jesus in "paradise" which if you look at Jewish tradition you would see is the holding place between heaven and hell  -what Catholics call purgatory.

If Stalin repented I believe he would go to purgatory. Were all of us would be lucky to get to. Repenting and reconciling are two different things. We can be forgiven but we need to work out our salvation in purgatory (to my understanding of it all anyway).

None of this is easy to understand or take in.

Paisley is doomed sure he is a prod

[LCohen]

I have no problem with secularism,each to their own,but the clerical abuse is not driving secularism.

Your last comment is totally wrong.I have said time and again the church was wrong to try and protect its reputation 40 years ago by trying to manage this issue in house when it was not in any way experienced or equipped to do so effectively.But you would concede that lessons have been learned and apologies offered.

The church was wrong in its actions. We can agree that because its obvious.

The individual church members who committed the abuse, covered it up at the time, failed to report to the police at the time, frustrated legal inquiries at the time, frustrated the subsequent inquries, moved assets beyond the reach of victims and fail to bring forward all the evidence they have today were/are also wrong. This is equally obvious. Can you agree that?

When these actions are reversed/made good then I will join you in saying that the lessons that need to be learned have in fact been learned. Everything is inadequate and indeed shameful.

No I disagree.The Church responded in the time honoured way of trying to protect its reputation.I don't believe that Brady or anyone else in the mid 70s had a tiny conception of the scale of the problem or indeed that they were managing a monster in Brendan Smyth.Perhaps they in all innocence felt that if Smyth was made aware of his activities,like an errant schoolboy, he would not repeat them.It is all to easy knowing what we know now,to criticise mistakes and omissions 40 years ago.

The number of abusive clerics imprisoned in Ireland would suggest that the authorities are not being denied the required information and evidence to secure convictions.

When you get something wrong in a "time honoured" way that doesn't make you innocent it make your offending serial. I think you should set out why you claim otherwise.

If you are unaware of the scale of the child rape problem (and that is something that you contend have not in any way sought to prove) then that does not excuse the cover up/failure to investigate/ failure to report/failure to protect victims/failure to protect potential victims. I think you should set out why you claim otherwise.

Just watch this space on the issue of how much the church has and is cooperating with legal and criminal inquiries.

[LCohen]

Lar, my understanding of secularism is the abandonment of religion in favour of exclusively worldly matters.I have no problem with separation of Church and State ,though the Church has a right to have its voice heard.

Abandonment?

Surely we are born without religion and adults bring us into that world.

Those brought up without religion are they not secular? If so how have they abandoned religion?

Secularism is the separation of church and state, the treatment of all religion's equally and generall requires religions to offer some form of proof/evidence to support their views when the religion is seeking to influence public policy. The latter seems to be the problem that the religious have with secularism.

Regrettably the church has used its voice to do some truely terrible things that extend well beyond child rape and its cover up

[foxcommander]

Paisley is doomed sure he is a prod

:O

Can't he at least hang about outside the Pearly gates with all the trendy brigade? Can't see them wanting to actually go in since they don't believe in the church of Rome.

[LCohen]

My God is one who wants people to believe in him and the redemptive sacrifice of his Son on the cross,and living a life which gives witness to and reflects such beliefs.I also believe he doesn't expect anyone to be infallible all the time, and genuinely welcomes those who repent and come back into the fold.

Why does he want people to believe in "him" - sounds like petty jealousy. But seriously why does he want to be believed in. Surely "he" would be more worreid about what people do?

What is this redemptive sacrifice? (Its been a while since I last attended)

[lynchbhoy]

I think a lot of people are over estimating two things
-The amount of clergy in the chain of command that were involved with covering things up and keeping it quiet ( for whatever reasons)
- the amount of people leaving the church... So what if done do - it's their right!


The trendy brigade amuse and at times annoy me !
Nowhere better to see these charades than around Dublin !

[Zip Code]

Did not Barabas repent at the very last minute,on the cross,and was assured of salvation by the Master himself

Nice religion, rape, murder - so whatever you want, then repent before death and you are saved.   

[foxcommander]

Just saying a lot of people aren't welcome, you and Tone are of the same ilk.

who isn't welcome in Church?
The RC Church welcomes everyone. The Church calls us all out of sin into a relationship with Christ. If you don't want to leave behind your sin you can't then say the church isn't making you welcome.... there's no sense in that argument whatsoever....

He is responding to the constant bashing of people who have stopped going to mass, and their subsequent showing up at funerals, having wedding in a Church etc.

I tend to agree with you overall (not wholly gone on the sin bit). The view of Jesus was as per the Prodigal Son parable imho.

The prodigal son gave up his old life but. Turned away from it. And because of that choice the Father ran to him. Ran.

I'm not sure where the constant bashing of people who have stopped going to mass happens? On the board?

It is usually Foxcommander.

Squealer.

[muppet]

Just saying a lot of people aren't welcome, you and Tone are of the same ilk.

who isn't welcome in Church?
The RC Church welcomes everyone. The Church calls us all out of sin into a relationship with Christ. If you don't want to leave behind your sin you can't then say the church isn't making you welcome.... there's no sense in that argument whatsoever....

He is responding to the constant bashing of people who have stopped going to mass, and their subsequent showing up at funerals, having wedding in a Church etc.

I tend to agree with you overall (not wholly gone on the sin bit). The view of Jesus was as per the Prodigal Son parable imho.

The prodigal son gave up his old life but. Turned away from it. And because of that choice the Father ran to him. Ran.

I'm not sure where the constant bashing of people who have stopped going to mass happens? On the board?

It is usually Foxcommander.

Squealer.

I went to confession and got 3 years purgatory on a plea bargain.

Sorry about that.