Sean Brady Steps Down

[T Fearon]

It is logical.If parents don't practice the faith neither will their children.It's totally different from a believer abandoning the church due to.child abuse

[Zip Code]

It is logical.If parents don't practice the faith neither will their children.It's totally different from a believer abandoning the church due to.child abuse

What faith is this?

[lynchbhoy]

funnily enough, ive seen the attendance swell in the past decade in my local church.
Undoubtedly there will be people who stop going due to feeling disillusioned about the whole abuse issue,
but as it was a small number or priests abusing and a small number that ballsed up the handling and stopping of this - the majority of priests were good men (mostly all with their own human problems etc imo ...drink, gambling etc) but as a whole good men.

the issue these days for the catholic church is not the attendances, its the falling numbers of priests.
lay priests, married priests and woman priests imo are the future for the church.

and yes, too many anti religious/anti church folk are speaking up slating the church when they have no stake in the matters or institution. Just an excuse to take pot shots.
 

[AZOffaly]

Yes, and I'm saying that a lot of people who believe in God have 'abandoned' the church. Not necessarily because some priests were abusers, but because the institution of the church decided to protect itself, and put its power above the welfare of the children these priests had abused. Worse than that, it placed these priests in situations where they would have the opportunity to do the exact same thing to more people.

That cover up, and indeed facilitation, of child abuse is a large reason why people are disillusioned with the institution of the church. If you can't accept that, I think you are just willfully refusing to do so. Note, I said 'with the church', not with God, and not with their faith.

[Zip Code]

AZ surely you need to go to mass once a week and coma pray for eternal salvation!

[AZOffaly]

funnily enough, ive seen the attendance swell in the past decade in my local church.
Undoubtedly there will be people who stop going due to feeling disillusioned about the whole abuse issue,
but as it was a small number or priests abusing and a small number that ballsed up the handling and stopping of this - the majority of priests were good men (mostly all with their own human problems etc imo ...drink, gambling etc) but as a whole good men.

I agree with this, but the Church as an institution was corrupt and failed its flock dramatically. I agree that most priests, and certainly any I know myself, are good and devout men, who help people as best they can.

the issue these days for the catholic church is not the attendances, its the falling numbers of priests.
lay priests, married priests and woman priests imo are the future for the church.

Again, I agree. The Vocation to the priesthood was , I believe, always influenced by the perceived power and prestige associated with joining the priesthood. The fact that this prestige has been tarnished, along with the spread of secularism means the numbers just are not there. I agree that Married priests will need to be allowed. Not sure about woman priests being allowed.

and yes, too many anti religious/anti church folk are speaking up slating the church when they have no stake in the matters or institution. Just an excuse to take pot shots.

Again, agree. And there will always be those who take pot shots at any organised religion, that's life. However I think there are lot of people who can be brought back into the church if the church is seen to finally and completely do the right thing, of its own volition instead of being harassed into it all the way. These are people of faith, who have simply been turned away from the Church because of its behaviour. These people are not the same as the group you mention, and I believe quite a few people fall into this category.

[johnneycool]

why the hang up with women priests, are you all misogynists?

[muppet]

funnily enough, ive seen the attendance swell in the past decade in my local church.
Undoubtedly there will be people who stop going due to feeling disillusioned about the whole abuse issue,
but as it was a small number or priests abusing and a small number that ballsed up the handling and stopping of this - the majority of priests were good men (mostly all with their own human problems etc imo ...drink, gambling etc) but as a whole good men.

the issue these days for the catholic church is not the attendances, its the falling numbers of priests.
lay priests, married priests and woman priests imo are the future for the church.

and yes, too many anti religious/anti church folk are speaking up slating the church when they have no stake in the matters or institution. Just an excuse to take pot shots.

There is no doubt that the problems of the Church are mainly higher up and that the vast majority of the clergy on the ground are fantastic, genuine people. I went to a school run by priests and have no complaints regarding any of them. They varied, but all had our interests at heart and did a good job.

But while the day to day stuff is with the members on the ground, the whole ideology and overall respect for the organisation is generated or destroyed higher up the ladder. This is a real problem for the Church and the Vatican in particular, many Cardinals and a lot (apparently declining numbers thankfully) of Bishops ignore this problem.

To do a Tony on it....a neighbour and family friend, and mother of a huge family of devout Catholics, recently left the Catholic Church completely. This wasn't the lure of secularism, this was a reaction to the problems facing the Catholic Church and she has since joined another Church. Some of us would call it a cult, but it offers her devotion something she felt the Vatican didn't.

[Lar Naparka]

Lar, my understanding of secularism is the abandonment of religion in favour of exclusively worldly matters.I have no problem with separation of Church and State ,though the Church has a right to have its voice heard.

Fair enough Tony but that's not the orthodox definition of secularism. I've no problem with the church having a say in social or political matters. In  fact, it has a duty to do so.
But it's very obvious that an increasing number of people have decided that the teachings of the Church doesn't meet their needs. They can't all be members of "the trendy brigade."
Archbishop Diarmuid Martin in a recent statement said that while 95% of the population are nominally Catholic, only 17% describe themselves as regular mass-goers.
I've known the man for many years and I genuinely like him. Definitely not a BS merchant.

And another thing, while the fall of in mass attendance may worry the church  authorities, the plummeting numbers studying for the priest must worry them even more. I've already quoted from what he had to say in yesterday's IT. And to jog your memory, here it is again.

"Just two Catholic priests in Dublin are under 40, while a further 44 are aged between 70 and 75 and in the next four or five years will be going into a more retired sort of life"
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/just-two-catholic-priests-in-dublin-aged-under-40-martin-1.1818859

Does all this not suggest to you that the Church's teachings  are being disregarded by the vast majority of the PPI and that its message means less and less to more and more  every day that passes?

[johnneycool]

funnily enough, ive seen the attendance swell in the past decade in my local church.
Undoubtedly there will be people who stop going due to feeling disillusioned about the whole abuse issue,
but as it was a small number or priests abusing and a small number that ballsed up the handling and stopping of this - the majority of priests were good men (mostly all with their own human problems etc imo ...drink, gambling etc) but as a whole good men.

the issue these days for the catholic church is not the attendances, its the falling numbers of priests.
lay priests, married priests and woman priests imo are the future for the church.

and yes, too many anti religious/anti church folk are speaking up slating the church when they have no stake in the matters or institution. Just an excuse to take pot shots.

There is no doubt that the problems of the Church are mainly higher up and that the vast majority of the clergy on the ground are fantastic, genuine people. I went to a school run by priests and have no complaints regarding any of them. They varied, but all had our interests at heart and did a good job.

But while the day to day stuff is with the members on the ground, the whole ideology and overall respect for the organisation is generated or destroyed higher up the ladder. This is a real problem for the Church and the Vatican in particular, many Cardinals and a lot (apparently declining numbers thankfully) of Bishops ignore this problem.

To do a Tony on it....a neighbour and family friend, and mother of a huge family of devout Catholics, recently left the Catholic Church completely. This wasn't the lure of secularism, this was a reaction to the problems facing the Catholic Church and she has since joined another Church. Some of us would call it a cult, but it offers her devotion something she felt the Vatican didn't.

Ah well her faith wasn't overly strong anyway and she'll burn in hell for that (c) T. Fearon.

[foxcommander]

But it's very obvious that an increasing number of people have decided that the teachings of the Church doesn't meet their needs. They can't all be members of "the trendy brigade."

Not everyone can be trendy.

I've lost count of the number of people I've had to listen to bad mouth the church and they never set foot in the doors except for funerals/baptism's and their "big day". They'll lie to the clergy in order to get the venue, even have heard boasting of how they blagged it.
They'll even try get the venue for free. The church certainly will meet their needs for a day.


Hypocrites.

[AZOffaly]

why the hang up with women priests, are you all misogynists?

Not really. I just don't think it will be allowed. I think it might be a step too far for the lads in Rome. I wouldn't have a problem with it, although it would be 'odd'. Do you call them Father, or Mother?

[Hardy]

But it's very obvious that an increasing number of people have decided that the teachings of the Church doesn't meet their needs. They can't all be members of "the trendy brigade."

Not everyone can be trendy.

I've lost count of the number of people I've had to listen to bad mouth the church and they never set foot in the doors except for funerals/baptism's and their "big day". They'll lie to the clergy in order to get the venue, even have heard boasting of how they blagged it.
They'll even try get the venue for free. The church certainly will meet their needs for a day.


Hypocrites.

Wow! Evil b**tards! Vile hypocrites indeed!

Now - what were we talking about? Oh yes - the church covering up and facilitating child rape (while lecturing the public about morality).

[Zip Code]

But it's very obvious that an increasing number of people have decided that the teachings of the Church doesn't meet their needs. They can't all be members of "the trendy brigade."

Not everyone can be trendy.

I've lost count of the number of people I've had to listen to bad mouth the church and they never set foot in the doors except for funerals/baptism's and their "big day". They'll lie to the clergy in order to get the venue, even have heard boasting of how they blagged it.
They'll even try get the venue for free. The church certainly will meet their needs for a day.


Hypocrites.

Wow! Evil b**tards! Vile hypocrites indeed!

Now - what were we talking about? Oh yes - the church covering up and facilitating child rape (while lecturing the public about morality).

+1 You couldn't make it up.  The altar huggers here certainly put up a strong case to have fcuk all to do with the Catholic Church if they are all as brainwashed as fox and Tone.

[foxcommander]

Wow! Evil b**tards! Vile hypocrites indeed!

I'm glad you agree. We may have some common ground after all.