A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

[HiMucker]

I wouldn't have much time for Eilis O'Hanlon as a writer

But maybe she was correct in some of what she said

Certainly the Shinnerbots on this forum seem very intent on proving her right

Nice to see you aligning yourself with the far right in true Eoghan Harris fashion. 

Pointing out that somebody you disagree with on most things may be right on some things isn't "aligning yourself with the far right"

It's displaying an ability to think

Neither is Eilis O'Hanlon far right

You certainly are though

What like snap chap agreeing with the PIRA taking up armed resistance against an oppressive regime but being against the killing of innocent children? You are a hypocrite.

[Angelo]

I wouldn't have much time for Eilis O'Hanlon as a writer

But maybe she was correct in some of what she said

Certainly the Shinnerbots on this forum seem very intent on proving her right

Nice to see you aligning yourself with the far right in true Eoghan Harris fashion. 

Pointing out that somebody you disagree with on most things may be right on some things isn't "aligning yourself with the far right"

It's displaying an ability to think

Neither is Eilis O'Hanlon far right

You certainly are though

Your credibility is shot. How can any poster attach any sincerity to all your shrieking and virtue signalling when you are villanising people who share the same views you once shouted out proudly?

Smile Sidney, you're on camera. 

But sure I've never hid that I used to support Sinn Fein, I've openly stated here several times that I voted for them in 2011 and 2016, and have no intention of ever voting for them again

The reason I did that is because unlike you, I have an ability to think and develop my opinions, and to change them where I think it's necessary

Pretty much everybody has previously held opinions that they now disagree with - anybody with a functioning brain, at any rate

You've absolutely no answer when I or anybody else engages you here so you're understandably totally desperate to do anything to deflect from that

But you have hid that you supported the Provisional IRA.

How can your square off your unequivocal support for their armed campaign with your unequivocal outrage at their armed campaign?

The Troubles ended in 1998, the Provos put down their guns yet you supported that armed campaign for decades after it concluded, celebrated, called the men and women who fought in it heroes.

Now they are the devil.

It's very Eoghan Harris, one of a fair few things you have in tow with the Far Right is a mutual hatred of SF.

[sid waddell]

I previously held opinions about the North I now profoundly disagree with and have never hid that

I disagree with them now because I examined them, realised they were wrong and changed them

So what?

There are a lot of people here who could seriously do with doing the same

You've never changed an opinion in your life - because you've never had any interest in thinking - and it shows

When you do that, you end up having to defend ludicrous things, as you do in every post

[Angelo]

Anybody who thinks the War of Independence and the PIRA campaign are morally equivalent is an idiot

Ok Sid, a number of British soldiers are ambushed by the IRA in their fight against British rule. They unmercifully emptied their magazines into these young men, brutally executed by the side of the road in cold blood.

I'm not telling you what county it happened in or what year.

Morally justified or not?

You're resorting to crude reductionism in an attempt to justify a 28 campaign of futile murder

Horrible things happen in all conflicts - but that's not how we judge them in the round

A plausible, arguable moral case can be made for the War of Independence because it was short, sharp, had a clear strategy was and successful - it got most of what the people waging that war wanted

The PIRA never had any hope of getting anything they wanted - and they didn't

They just kept on murdering for 28 years, murdering in a vacuum, like ISIS

And they sacrificed their own for no reason

The deaths of the hunger strikers, for instance, were totally futile

Now, what's the difference between Omagh and Enniskillen or Warrington?

The answer is nothing

To my knowledge, nobody here supports the Real IRA or justifies what they did at Omagh

Yet they justify the PIRA's 28 year campaign of murder

That's remarkable cognitive dissonance

Incidentally, Bernadette Sands McKevitt, the wife of Michael McKevitt, the Omagh bomber, was the sister of Bobby Sands

So if anybody had a handle on the true mindset of Bobby Sands and what he truly believed, it was her

The SF/PIRA movement as a whole moved away from the ideology of Bobby Sands and the hunger strikers when they decided to surrender - I suppose you could say they did the dirt on Sands and people like Brendan Hughes

I'm glad they did that - because peace followed from it - but it's pretty unarguable that the likes of McKevitt and his wife were the true believers and stayed true to the ideology

SF and the vast majority of the PIRA who abided by the ceasefire abandoned their ideology

So what was it all for?

Nothing

Hey guys.

This one is a doozy.

[sid waddell]

You seriously need a lie down, Angelo 

Debate really isn't for you

[Angelo]

You seriously need a lie down, Angelo 

Debate really isn't for you

I think you'd appreciate that. 

But I think it's important people know your moralising and pontificating are in no way sincere.

[sid waddell]

You seriously need a lie down, Angelo 

Debate really isn't for you

I think you'd appreciate that. 

But I think it's important people know your moralising and pontificating are in no way sincere.

On the contrary, having previously held views I now disagree with makes my views now all the more sincere

Because they are the result of deep thought and self examination

This gives them far more weight and credibility

[Windmill abu]

If the Irish government were to announce tomorrow they were starting to plan for a united Ireland and demanding a border poll it would only cause more tension/problems.

Cause more problems and tensions? Are you for real? You are really failing to grasp the fact that there is going to be a border poll and it will be relatively soon. Are you suggesting the Irish government would be better just sleepwalking into it and not being prepared for it's outcome, than to actually be prepared?

The Irish government are the sensible ones unlike SF demanding the poll be called.

Again, SF are demanding that the planning start. They are not calling for a poll to be held tomorrow. You've had this pointed out to you numerous times, so drop the straw man argument.

IF SF want a poll to pass they need to bring the DUP/unionists with them and not force them into something they don't want and are not going to vote for

What claptrap. If SF want a polll to pass, they need to bring 50%+1 with them. It's right there in black and white in the GFA. There is absolutely no requirement for a majority of the DUP/unionists to support it. By definition, that can't even happen. When a majority of people vote for reunification, then reunification it is. The days of a unionist veto are over. And if a slim nationalist majority want unity, then you, as a democrat will surely support it? You wouldn't want to "force them into something they don't want" by insisting their wishes be ignored because unionism doesn't like it?

That's the square your position seems unable to circle in your frantic opposition to argue against a border poll. You want unionists to be engaged in a debate about it, yet when it's suggested the Irish government do that very thing, you deem that unacceptable incase it upsets said unionists.

You really think it's that simple? 50.000000001% votes for a united Ireland and everything is settled? I don't see how anything can be settled unless both sides are happy with the deal. Its this nonsense from SF/DUP who both think that the other should do what they want that has the NI assembly in such a mess and anything but a well run functioning government.

If a majority of the population in the north vote for a U.I. 50%+1, then their wishes must be observed. Like the Brexit vote in the U.K. almost 50% voted to remain, but brexit went ahead because the majority voted for it.
That is how democracy works. Pandering to a minority will risk the majority losing faith in democracy and seeking other ways to achieve what they will have voted for.

[Angelo]

You seriously need a lie down, Angelo 

Debate really isn't for you

I think you'd appreciate that. 

But I think it's important people know your moralising and pontificating are in no way sincere.

On the contrary, having previously held views I now disagree with makes my views now all the more sincere

Because they are the result of deep thought and self examination

This gives them far more weight and credibility

How does it make them sincere? It only portrays as a very emotional, vindictive and petty person

The war ended in 1998.

No new information has came to light about The Troubles in the past few years. Yet up until a few years ago you backed the armed campaign, then you fell out with SF and since then have gone a campaign of exercising your own personal grievances.

There's a real lack of objectivity in your posts, they are very emotional and vindictive. It's fair enough of you to criticise SF and the direction they are going in but it's the revisionism which removes all credibility from you.

[sid waddell]

If the "war ended in 1998", why are you so paranoid about the Northern bank robbery, the McCartney murder and the Paul Quinn murder being brought up?

[Rossfan]

When do the sensible posters think there might be a "Border poll" in the 6 Cos?
Only 1 Person can give the go ahead.
Will a 26 Co vote be held the same day or only subsequent to an A I victory in the 6 Co vote?
What planning do SF want the Irish Government to do exactly?
They have no say in when this vote will be called and have no Jurisdiction in the 6 Cos.

[Lar Naparka]

When do the sensible posters think there might be a "Border poll" in the 6 Cos?
Only 1 Person can give the go ahead.
Will a 26 Co vote be held the same day or only subsequent to an A I victory in the 6 Co vote?
What planning do SF want the Irish Government to do exactly?
They have no say in when this vote will be called and have no Jurisdiction in the 6 Cos.

What happens I wonder if the Republic fails to pass the referendum? I'd say a majority in the south would be in favour of a UI but I wouldn't bet the house on it.

[sid waddell]

If the Irish government were to announce tomorrow they were starting to plan for a united Ireland and demanding a border poll it would only cause more tension/problems.

Cause more problems and tensions? Are you for real? You are really failing to grasp the fact that there is going to be a border poll and it will be relatively soon. Are you suggesting the Irish government would be better just sleepwalking into it and not being prepared for it's outcome, than to actually be prepared?

The Irish government are the sensible ones unlike SF demanding the poll be called.

Again, SF are demanding that the planning start. They are not calling for a poll to be held tomorrow. You've had this pointed out to you numerous times, so drop the straw man argument.

IF SF want a poll to pass they need to bring the DUP/unionists with them and not force them into something they don't want and are not going to vote for

What claptrap. If SF want a polll to pass, they need to bring 50%+1 with them. It's right there in black and white in the GFA. There is absolutely no requirement for a majority of the DUP/unionists to support it. By definition, that can't even happen. When a majority of people vote for reunification, then reunification it is. The days of a unionist veto are over. And if a slim nationalist majority want unity, then you, as a democrat will surely support it? You wouldn't want to "force them into something they don't want" by insisting their wishes be ignored because unionism doesn't like it?

That's the square your position seems unable to circle in your frantic opposition to argue against a border poll. You want unionists to be engaged in a debate about it, yet when it's suggested the Irish government do that very thing, you deem that unacceptable incase it upsets said unionists.

You really think it's that simple? 50.000000001% votes for a united Ireland and everything is settled? I don't see how anything can be settled unless both sides are happy with the deal. Its this nonsense from SF/DUP who both think that the other should do what they want that has the NI assembly in such a mess and anything but a well run functioning government.

If a majority of the population in the north vote for a U.I. 50%+1, then their wishes must be observed. Like the Brexit vote in the U.K. almost 50% voted to remain, but brexit went ahead because the majority voted for it.
That is how democracy works. Pandering to a minority will risk the majority losing faith in democracy and seeking other ways to achieve what they will have voted for.

OK, but pretty much all evidence shows that a significant democratic majority in NI wants to remain in the UK

So, isn't constant agitation for a border poll which will inevitably lose "pandering to a minority"?

[Snapchap]

You really think it's that simple? 50.000000001% votes for a united Ireland and everything is settled?

That's what's written in the GFA. Did you vote for the Agreement yourself? Did you miss that bit? It's a legally binding international agreement. If a simple majority votes for reunification, then there will be reunification. It's called democracy.

I don't see how anything can be settled unless both sides are happy with the deal.

Airy fairy, pie-in-the-sky nonsense. Like a Miss Universe being asked what she wants most: "world peace!". On what planet do you live that you think unionists are going to just stop being unionist, or nationalists all suddenly turn unionist? You're never going to get a consensus on the constitutional situation here. All you can do is aim for a reunited Ireland and try to make it as welcoming and inclusive as possible for unionism, because, so as long as a simple majority is enough of a democratic mandate for remaining in the uk, then it is also a sufficient mandate for reunification. And the demographic and political trends all point to that happening. Democracy.


I'm really struggling to understand what you are arguing for. You want there to be a consensus in any future settlement. That implies that if unionism is to be 'converted', they have to be sold a good vision of what reunification would entail. If that's what you are arguing needs to happen, then why on earth would you also argue that the Irish Government shouldn't try to do that very thing because it might upset unionism. FFS make up your mind.

And if you do believe there should be a broad settlement, then that means a border poll would have to be won by a huge majority before it should happen. That being your view, then:
(i) Are you content to scrap the GFA since it legislates for a simple majority being sufficient?
(ii) What % of the population must vote for reunification before you think it should happen? Because I'd love to know just how much more valuable you believe a unionists vote should be over that of a nationalist vote?

[dublin7]

If the Irish government were to announce tomorrow they were starting to plan for a united Ireland and demanding a border poll it would only cause more tension/problems.

Cause more problems and tensions? Are you for real? You are really failing to grasp the fact that there is going to be a border poll and it will be relatively soon. Are you suggesting the Irish government would be better just sleepwalking into it and not being prepared for it's outcome, than to actually be prepared?

The Irish government are the sensible ones unlike SF demanding the poll be called.

Again, SF are demanding that the planning start. They are not calling for a poll to be held tomorrow. You've had this pointed out to you numerous times, so drop the straw man argument.

IF SF want a poll to pass they need to bring the DUP/unionists with them and not force them into something they don't want and are not going to vote for

What claptrap. If SF want a polll to pass, they need to bring 50%+1 with them. It's right there in black and white in the GFA. There is absolutely no requirement for a majority of the DUP/unionists to support it. By definition, that can't even happen. When a majority of people vote for reunification, then reunification it is. The days of a unionist veto are over. And if a slim nationalist majority want unity, then you, as a democrat will surely support it? You wouldn't want to "force them into something they don't want" by insisting their wishes be ignored because unionism doesn't like it?

That's the square your position seems unable to circle in your frantic opposition to argue against a border poll. You want unionists to be engaged in a debate about it, yet when it's suggested the Irish government do that very thing, you deem that unacceptable incase it upsets said unionists.

You really think it's that simple? 50.000000001% votes for a united Ireland and everything is settled? I don't see how anything can be settled unless both sides are happy with the deal. Its this nonsense from SF/DUP who both think that the other should do what they want that has the NI assembly in such a mess and anything but a well run functioning government.

If a majority of the population in the north vote for a U.I. 50%+1, then their wishes must be observed. Like the Brexit vote in the U.K. almost 50% voted to remain, but brexit went ahead because the majority voted for it.
That is how democracy works. Pandering to a minority will risk the majority losing faith in democracy and seeking other ways to achieve what they will have voted for.

If the vote goes through at such a tight margin it will mean a united Ireland can be brought in, but it won't be the end of the matter. You'll have a deeply divided society and based on previous experience I'd expect it to lead to a re-emergence of the paramilitary conflict that no one wants.

Thankfully this is irrelevant anyway. Despite what some SF supporters think a border poll is not on the agenda at the moment for any government (UK or Irish). I would say we are years away from this being called, but if it is it'll be Boris/UK prime minister who decides and not something the Irish government will decide