A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

[Angelo]

For a UI to be successful the middle ground is where the battle is won and lost and IMO whilst identity may be important to a lot in this group, economics, health and education will probably play a bigger part. In fact a lot of people who vote for what are deemed nationalist parties could be in this very same cohort.
.

And while people slag off the FFG parties, they have delivered a prosperous economy which provides many of these things that this group wants, something SF would never have done. The retort to this is that this only benefits the few, but this is not true, although some bad decisions have caused problems in housing etc.

They also delivered an economic crash that created mass unemployment, forced mass immigration and the legacy of which is a worsening housing crisis.

[pbat]

I think if Leo does end up having to go and Convey is Taoiseach for the second half of this governments term the border poll will move up the agenda. I'm far from a fan of FG but to be fair Convey has really fought hard for the North over Brexit and is the first southern politician in a long time remembered the Island didn't stop at Drogheda. 

[Rossfan]

Has Matt Carty or SF (or any pro AI parties) spelled out what their vision of "New Ireland" will look like or how it will operate?
In practical terms not sound bites or grandiose general terms.
What arrangements will operate for the 6 NE Counties?
What arrangements for those who choose British Nationality (which may not exist by then)?
Will the AI Government be a mandatory Coalition or will a certain number of Cabinet posts be reserved for the 6 NE Counties or for "Ulster British" parties?

[Applesisapples]

SF demands for a poll must be seen in the context of a campaign for unity. In reality the margin will cost for little. When unity happens the consensus for it will be overwhelming. But if 51% is good enough to maintain the union it is good enough to start us on the road to unity. That said I have said before SF have a lot of convincing to do on the nationalist and no aligned sides of the argument before they can realistically deliver a yes vote. SF alone will never deliver unity, nor can they be ignored.

[Applesisapples]

Has Matt Carty or SF (or any pro AI parties) spelled out what their vision of "New Ireland" will look like or how it will operate?
In practical terms not sound bites or grandiose general terms.
What arrangements will operate for the 6 NE Counties?
What arrangements for those who choose British Nationality (which may not exist by then)?
Will the AI Government be a mandatory Coalition or will a certain number of Cabinet posts be reserved for the 6 NE Counties or for "Ulster British" parties?

The way things are currently any changes to Stormont would need agreement. Sovereignty would change from Britain to Ireland but NI could remain as is but with some representation in the Dail.

[Snapchap]

The Irish Government's prime Constitutional imperative and what they are elected for is to run the State.
The Good Friday Agreement sets out the criteria for holding a "Border poll" which unfortunately is in the gift of the Brit Secretary of state.
That however is what a large majority of the Irish people voted for in 1998.

People in the south are constantly being told we don't know what it's like living up in the North. You now want people in the south to call for a border poll on how the people in the north should live. It's up to the UK government/NI assembly to call for a vote on remaining as part of the UK. With SF/DUP as divided as they've ever been I don't see a border poll being called anytime soon and there's certainly no pressure being put on the Irish government by anyone in the south to look for one

There is a general consensus across the board in the north and in London that a border poll will happen in the relatively near future. Would you say that FFG Governments are being responsible by refusing to even discuss the possibility of such a poll, let alone plan for a potential positive outcome?

I see SF calling for a poll, but beyond that there's no appetite or demand for one. The Irish government don't see this as a priority as the electorate in the south don't see it as a priority. Only when people start putting pressure on the Irish government will that position change. I don't blame the government for this. Why put your energy into something that will get them little political gain and knowing the campaign itself will be a very bitter one in the north.

SF's chief demand off FFG is for the planning to start for a poll. I find it staggering that you can't see how stupid it is for any Irish Government to not prepare for possible, or should I say, probable constitutional upheaval. Even Peter Robinson, probably the most strategically minded unionist leader of the past 30 years, has been arguing the point that a border poll is going to happen and that people need to be prepared. We saw what happened when the groundwork wasn't done before the Brexit referendum. It's lunacy to think that the Irish government refusing to plan for a border poll, given it's likelihood in the relatively near future, is anything other than gross negligence.

[Louther]

Has Matt Carty or SF (or any pro AI parties) spelled out what their vision of "New Ireland" will look like or how it will operate?
In practical terms not sound bites or grandiose general terms.
What arrangements will operate for the 6 NE Counties?
What arrangements for those who choose British Nationality (which may not exist by then)?
Will the AI Government be a mandatory Coalition or will a certain number of Cabinet posts be reserved for the 6 NE Counties or for "Ulster British" parties?

I don't believe so and in fairness maybe they making the noise now to start this process. It will be complex and time consuming.

And from a 26 counties view I would also think they'd prefer to be in opposition when the process starts, so they can wash their hands of it if it goes wrong and shout from the sidelines.

[Angelo]

SF demands for a poll must be seen in the context of a campaign for unity. In reality the margin will cost for little. When unity happens the consensus for it will be overwhelming. But if 51% is good enough to maintain the union it is good enough to start us on the road to unity. That said I have said before SF have a lot of convincing to do on the nationalist and no aligned sides of the argument before they can realistically deliver a yes vote. SF alone will never deliver unity, nor can they be ignored.

That is undeniably true.

The central is that FF, particularly in Micheal Martin are doing everything they can to thwart the move towards Irish Unity.

FFG have too much of a vested interest in the establishment politics here, a United Ireland threatens their stranglehold on control.

[Angelo]

The Irish Government's prime Constitutional imperative and what they are elected for is to run the State.
The Good Friday Agreement sets out the criteria for holding a "Border poll" which unfortunately is in the gift of the Brit Secretary of state.
That however is what a large majority of the Irish people voted for in 1998.

People in the south are constantly being told we don't know what it's like living up in the North. You now want people in the south to call for a border poll on how the people in the north should live. It's up to the UK government/NI assembly to call for a vote on remaining as part of the UK. With SF/DUP as divided as they've ever been I don't see a border poll being called anytime soon and there's certainly no pressure being put on the Irish government by anyone in the south to look for one

There is a general consensus across the board in the north and in London that a border poll will happen in the relatively near future. Would you say that FFG Governments are being responsible by refusing to even discuss the possibility of such a poll, let alone plan for a potential positive outcome?

I see SF calling for a poll, but beyond that there's no appetite or demand for one. The Irish government don't see this as a priority as the electorate in the south don't see it as a priority. Only when people start putting pressure on the Irish government will that position change. I don't blame the government for this. Why put your energy into something that will get them little political gain and knowing the campaign itself will be a very bitter one in the north.

SF's chief demand off FFG is for the planning to start for a poll. I find it staggering that you can't see how stupid it is for any Irish Government to not prepare for possible, or should I say, probable constitutional upheaval. Even Peter Robinson, probably the most strategically minded unionist leader of the past 30 years, has been arguing the point that a border poll is going to happen and that people need to be prepared. We saw what happened when the groundwork wasn't done before the Brexit referendum. It's lunacy to think that the Irish government refusing to plan for a border poll, given it's likelihood in the relatively near future, is anything other than gross negligence.

You're wasting your time debating with Dublin7.

He doesn't like facts or truth. He is typical of that FS mentality which looks to dismiss the plight of the northern natioanlists and reform of politics on this island.

[dublin7]

The Irish Government's prime Constitutional imperative and what they are elected for is to run the State.
The Good Friday Agreement sets out the criteria for holding a "Border poll" which unfortunately is in the gift of the Brit Secretary of state.
That however is what a large majority of the Irish people voted for in 1998.

People in the south are constantly being told we don't know what it's like living up in the North. You now want people in the south to call for a border poll on how the people in the north should live. It's up to the UK government/NI assembly to call for a vote on remaining as part of the UK. With SF/DUP as divided as they've ever been I don't see a border poll being called anytime soon and there's certainly no pressure being put on the Irish government by anyone in the south to look for one

There is a general consensus across the board in the north and in London that a border poll will happen in the relatively near future. Would you say that FFG Governments are being responsible by refusing to even discuss the possibility of such a poll, let alone plan for a potential positive outcome?

I see SF calling for a poll, but beyond that there's no appetite or demand for one. The Irish government don't see this as a priority as the electorate in the south don't see it as a priority. Only when people start putting pressure on the Irish government will that position change. I don't blame the government for this. Why put your energy into something that will get them little political gain and knowing the campaign itself will be a very bitter one in the north.

SF's chief demand off FFG is for the planning to start for a poll. I find it staggering that you can't see how stupid it is for any Irish Government to not prepare for possible, or should I say, probable constitutional upheaval. Even Peter Robinson, probably the most strategically minded unionist leader of the past 30 years, has been arguing the point that a border poll is going to happen and that people need to be prepared. We saw what happened when the groundwork wasn't done before the Brexit referendum. It's lunacy to think that the Irish government refusing to plan for a border poll, given it's likelihood in the relatively near future, is anything other than gross negligence.

Just because SF want a border poll ASAP it doesn't mean it's going to happen anytime soon. In case you hadn't noticed the UK/Irish governments have other priorities to be dealing with that are actually happening now.

The issues with Brexit are not due to a lack of groundwork but Boris/Arlene breaking agreements that had been agreed with the EU. The sensible approach would be to wait until such a poll has a high chance of passing before calling it. All calling one now would achieve is a bitter campaign between 2 deeply divided parties in SF & DUP that will only cause further division in the North.

[Snapchap]

Just because SF want a border poll ASAP it doesn't mean it's going to happen anytime soon. In case you hadn't noticed the UK/Irish governments have other priorities to be dealing with that are actually happening now.

Where did I say it would/should happen just because it's what SF want? The reason it will happen, and happen relatively soon, is because all the trends point to it. The Catholic (mostly nationalist) population is younger and growing more rapidly than the Protestant (mostly unionist) population, opinion polls have been showing a steady climb in support for reunification and at the last assembly election, unionism lost it's majority for the first time since partition. So a border poll will happen DESPITE the Irish Government, not because of it. The point is, they need to waken up to that reality and start planning. This in a state that was gerrymandered to ensure they could hold a permanent majority. Brexit has already resulted in what some are calling an "economic united Ireland". Things are already moving inexorably in one direction. To not plan for such constitutional upheaval is gross negligence.

The issues with Brexit are not due to a lack of groundwork but Boris/Arlene breaking agreements that had been agreed with the EU.

So you think people DID know what they were voting for with Brexit? Are you for real?

The sensible approach would be to wait until such a poll has a high chance of passing before calling it. All calling one now would achieve is a bitter campaign between 2 deeply divided parties in SF & DUP that will only cause further division in the North.

And as I have now repeatedly said, SF's call is not for a border poll to be held tomorrow, but for the contingency planning to begin today. That IS a sensible approach. The outright refusal of the Irish government to prepare for one is not sensible.

[sid waddell]

The latest opinion poll in NI for a united Ireland shows a 57-43 margin for the status quo

Seems a bit pointless holding a poll in which the outcome seems pretty inevitable and which would seriously ramp up tensions, doesn't it

[bennydorano]

Just for clarification, Sid and I posted on a different forum for years back.

We agreed on a lot of things back then so I do know his views now are completely at odds. I know what he is saying now is both vindictive and emotional at his personal opinion with the current actions of SF. He's entitled to criticise the party but when he engages in revisionism of The Troubles is another things.

Here are some of his former viewpoints. The Troubles ended in 1998 yet Sidney was a supporter of the Provisional IRA campaign until about 3 or 4 years ago.

















So when people engage in his crazy revisionism of The Troubles and the context around they should be fully knowledgeable that they come from an emotional and embittered place, that he in fact doesn't even believe those views himself. It's political point scoring over a conflict he had no personal experience of.

Contested??

They are his posts.

He was a big supporter of SF and the armed campaign up until his Eoghan Harris moment a couple of years or so back.

The moralising and pontificating you see here are completely hollow.

Well Sid, is this your #metoo moment?

[sid waddell]

The Shinnerbots seem to be having a nervous breakdown 

[Angelo]

Former shinnerbot Sidney must have had a complete malfunction after his last firmware update.