Ulster Club SFC 2016

Started by WT4E, September 27, 2016, 10:39:03 AM

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BennyCake

Quote from: JoG2 on November 14, 2016, 07:25:32 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on November 14, 2016, 06:14:16 PM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on November 14, 2016, 05:18:56 PM
If the Tyrone championship is superior to the rest

Urgh. F**k me.

I'm not a Tyrone man, but even I'll step in to defend what was said at this point to try and stop this pointless bullsh!te.

The fact that more teams can realistically win it and each team has to play nearer 100% of their potential on any given day to win in it doesn't mean its of a higher standard than another county's championship.

Swap out "more competitive" for "more evenly balanced" if it makes you sleep better at night.

(At no point did anyone say the Tyrone SFC was superior to that in any other county)

Did someone not famously say 9 Tyrone teams could win Ulster... Now what other county could boast something similar?

Rock and Pomeroy. Who's the other 7? ;)

Il Bomber Destro

Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on November 14, 2016, 09:07:41 PM
It was clearly inferred that the reason for Tyrone clubs lack of success in ulster was due to the fact their championship was that "competitive" teams were spent the time ulster matches came around; comments that the same faces from Armagh/Derry/Down/Monaghan were always there or thereabouts in Ulster was that they "walked" through their championships without challenge which is bull.   

From reading posts, people are clearing trying to make a point the Tyrone championship is the toughest in Ulster.  The point I was trying to make is that if it that tough, and the winner is that deserving of the title, why do they not compete as well as they should?   

Regarding Maghery, semi-finalists, they have done as well as any Tyrone team in ulster in the past 10 years bar Omagh in 2014, as far as I mind the only Tyrone team to reach a final?

Some people may have inferred that but I haven't.

What I have said is that Tyrone have 8 or 9 sides who would be able to hold their own in the Ulster Club Championship, there's not a lot between the top 8 or 9 sides there and while Tyrone may not have a side up there with the likes of Cross/Kilcoo/Slaughtneil/Scotstown they do have plenty of sides who can go into Ulster, win a few games and be competitive against the best teams.

In the other counties mentioned I highly doubt you would have the same. Derry for a long time has been the best club championship in the province but it's now basically a duopoly between Slaughtneil and Ballinderry, all the other sides seem a good distance off these two. Armagh and Down have generally been processions for the past few years for Cross and Kilcoo and we saw the hockeying Maghery got yesterday. Monaghan is an inferior Derry at the minute with an inferior duopoly in Clontibret and Scotstown. Donegal is of a decent standard but a bit like Tyrone doesn't have any super club who will dominate the scene.

On that basis, I would say Tyrone has the strongest club championship in Ulster - I would not use the best team in the county as a marker for the rest - it would be like saying Leinster foobtall is currently the strongest province because Dublin have won 4 of the last 6 AIs.

Milltown Row2

Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on November 14, 2016, 09:57:08 PM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on November 14, 2016, 09:07:41 PM
It was clearly inferred that the reason for Tyrone clubs lack of success in ulster was due to the fact their championship was that "competitive" teams were spent the time ulster matches came around; comments that the same faces from Armagh/Derry/Down/Monaghan were always there or thereabouts in Ulster was that they "walked" through their championships without challenge which is bull.   

From reading posts, people are clearing trying to make a point the Tyrone championship is the toughest in Ulster.  The point I was trying to make is that if it that tough, and the winner is that deserving of the title, why do they not compete as well as they should?   

Regarding Maghery, semi-finalists, they have done as well as any Tyrone team in ulster in the past 10 years bar Omagh in 2014, as far as I mind the only Tyrone team to reach a final?

Some people may have inferred that but I haven't.

What I have said is that Tyrone have 8 or 9 sides who would be able to hold their own in the Ulster Club Championship, there's not a lot between the top 8 or 9 sides there and while Tyrone may not have a side up there with the likes of Cross/Kilcoo/Slaughtneil/Scotstown they do have plenty of sides who can go into Ulster, win a few games and be competitive against the best teams.

In the other counties mentioned I highly doubt you would have the same. Derry for a long time has been the best club championship in the province but it's now basically a duopoly between Slaughtneil and Ballinderry, all the other sides seem a good distance off these two. Armagh and Down have generally been processions for the past few years for Cross and Kilcoo and we saw the hockeying Maghery got yesterday. Monaghan is an inferior Derry at the minute with an inferior duopoly in Clontibret and Scotstown. Donegal is of a decent standard but a bit like Tyrone doesn't have any super club who will dominate the scene.

On that basis, I would say Tyrone has the strongest club championship in Ulster - I would not use the best team in the county as a marker for the rest - it would be like saying Leinster foobtall is currently the strongest province because Dublin have won 4 of the last 6 AIs.

All about opinions I suppose, Dublin championship would be the strongest in the last ten years for sure... and the likes of Rhode and Portlaois would prop up the rest of Leinster!
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

Maiden1

Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on November 14, 2016, 09:57:08 PM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on November 14, 2016, 09:07:41 PM
It was clearly inferred that the reason for Tyrone clubs lack of success in ulster was due to the fact their championship was that "competitive" teams were spent the time ulster matches came around; comments that the same faces from Armagh/Derry/Down/Monaghan were always there or thereabouts in Ulster was that they "walked" through their championships without challenge which is bull.   

From reading posts, people are clearing trying to make a point the Tyrone championship is the toughest in Ulster.  The point I was trying to make is that if it that tough, and the winner is that deserving of the title, why do they not compete as well as they should?   

Regarding Maghery, semi-finalists, they have done as well as any Tyrone team in ulster in the past 10 years bar Omagh in 2014, as far as I mind the only Tyrone team to reach a final?

Some people may have inferred that but I haven't.

What I have said is that Tyrone have 8 or 9 sides who would be able to hold their own in the Ulster Club Championship, there's not a lot between the top 8 or 9 sides there and while Tyrone may not have a side up there with the likes of Cross/Kilcoo/Slaughtneil/Scotstown they do have plenty of sides who can go into Ulster, win a few games and be competitive against the best teams.

In the other counties mentioned I highly doubt you would have the same. Derry for a long time has been the best club championship in the province but it's now basically a duopoly between Slaughtneil and Ballinderry, all the other sides seem a good distance off these two. Armagh and Down have generally been processions for the past few years for Cross and Kilcoo and we saw the hockeying Maghery got yesterday. Monaghan is an inferior Derry at the minute with an inferior duopoly in Clontibret and Scotstown. Donegal is of a decent standard but a bit like Tyrone doesn't have any super club who will dominate the scene.

On that basis, I would say Tyrone has the strongest club championship in Ulster - I would not use the best team in the county as a marker for the rest - it would be like saying Leinster foobtall is currently the strongest province because Dublin have won 4 of the last 6 AIs.
Your argument doesn't add up.  Coleraine lost the final last year by a point.  The year before Slaughtneil won the county final with a last minute goal that was arguably not over the line and then got to the all ireland final.  I've already shown that Burren are not far off Kilcoo.  There is no evidence at all that the Tyrone championship is stronger than any other county.
There are no proofs, only opinions.

Il Bomber Destro

Quote from: Maiden1 on November 14, 2016, 10:06:45 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on November 14, 2016, 09:57:08 PM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on November 14, 2016, 09:07:41 PM
It was clearly inferred that the reason for Tyrone clubs lack of success in ulster was due to the fact their championship was that "competitive" teams were spent the time ulster matches came around; comments that the same faces from Armagh/Derry/Down/Monaghan were always there or thereabouts in Ulster was that they "walked" through their championships without challenge which is bull.   

From reading posts, people are clearing trying to make a point the Tyrone championship is the toughest in Ulster.  The point I was trying to make is that if it that tough, and the winner is that deserving of the title, why do they not compete as well as they should?   

Regarding Maghery, semi-finalists, they have done as well as any Tyrone team in ulster in the past 10 years bar Omagh in 2014, as far as I mind the only Tyrone team to reach a final?

Some people may have inferred that but I haven't.

What I have said is that Tyrone have 8 or 9 sides who would be able to hold their own in the Ulster Club Championship, there's not a lot between the top 8 or 9 sides there and while Tyrone may not have a side up there with the likes of Cross/Kilcoo/Slaughtneil/Scotstown they do have plenty of sides who can go into Ulster, win a few games and be competitive against the best teams.

In the other counties mentioned I highly doubt you would have the same. Derry for a long time has been the best club championship in the province but it's now basically a duopoly between Slaughtneil and Ballinderry, all the other sides seem a good distance off these two. Armagh and Down have generally been processions for the past few years for Cross and Kilcoo and we saw the hockeying Maghery got yesterday. Monaghan is an inferior Derry at the minute with an inferior duopoly in Clontibret and Scotstown. Donegal is of a decent standard but a bit like Tyrone doesn't have any super club who will dominate the scene.

On that basis, I would say Tyrone has the strongest club championship in Ulster - I would not use the best team in the county as a marker for the rest - it would be like saying Leinster foobtall is currently the strongest province because Dublin have won 4 of the last 6 AIs.
Your argument doesn't add up.  Coleraine lost the final last year by a point.  The year before Slaughtneil won the county final with a last minute goal that was arguably not over the line and then got to the all ireland final.  I've already shown that Burren are not far off Kilcoo.  There is no evidence at all that the Tyrone championship is stronger than any other county.

My argument does add up, the same clubs come out of those Championships year on year on year. If The Burren were not far off Kilcoo then Kilcoo would not have won 5 titles on the trot and hammering Burren when it matters.

Maiden1

Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on November 14, 2016, 10:21:08 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on November 14, 2016, 10:06:45 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on November 14, 2016, 09:57:08 PM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on November 14, 2016, 09:07:41 PM
It was clearly inferred that the reason for Tyrone clubs lack of success in ulster was due to the fact their championship was that "competitive" teams were spent the time ulster matches came around; comments that the same faces from Armagh/Derry/Down/Monaghan were always there or thereabouts in Ulster was that they "walked" through their championships without challenge which is bull.   

From reading posts, people are clearing trying to make a point the Tyrone championship is the toughest in Ulster.  The point I was trying to make is that if it that tough, and the winner is that deserving of the title, why do they not compete as well as they should?   

Regarding Maghery, semi-finalists, they have done as well as any Tyrone team in ulster in the past 10 years bar Omagh in 2014, as far as I mind the only Tyrone team to reach a final?

Some people may have inferred that but I haven't.

What I have said is that Tyrone have 8 or 9 sides who would be able to hold their own in the Ulster Club Championship, there's not a lot between the top 8 or 9 sides there and while Tyrone may not have a side up there with the likes of Cross/Kilcoo/Slaughtneil/Scotstown they do have plenty of sides who can go into Ulster, win a few games and be competitive against the best teams.

In the other counties mentioned I highly doubt you would have the same. Derry for a long time has been the best club championship in the province but it's now basically a duopoly between Slaughtneil and Ballinderry, all the other sides seem a good distance off these two. Armagh and Down have generally been processions for the past few years for Cross and Kilcoo and we saw the hockeying Maghery got yesterday. Monaghan is an inferior Derry at the minute with an inferior duopoly in Clontibret and Scotstown. Donegal is of a decent standard but a bit like Tyrone doesn't have any super club who will dominate the scene.

On that basis, I would say Tyrone has the strongest club championship in Ulster - I would not use the best team in the county as a marker for the rest - it would be like saying Leinster foobtall is currently the strongest province because Dublin have won 4 of the last 6 AIs.
Your argument doesn't add up.  Coleraine lost the final last year by a point.  The year before Slaughtneil won the county final with a last minute goal that was arguably not over the line and then got to the all ireland final.  I've already shown that Burren are not far off Kilcoo.  There is no evidence at all that the Tyrone championship is stronger than any other county.

My argument does add up, the same clubs come out of those Championships year on year on year. If The Burren were not far off Kilcoo then Kilcoo would not have won 5 titles on the trot and hammering Burren when it matters.
09 Aug 2015 Burren 2.13 v 2.10 Kilcoo (AET)
13 Sep 2015 Burren 1.9 v 2.7 Kilcoo

07Aug 2016 Kilcoo 1.7 v 2.10 Burren
11 Sep 2016 Kilcoo 4.7 v 2.8 Burren

Ok whatever on Burren.  Look up the list of Derry championship finals if you think it's the same teams.
There are no proofs, only opinions.

Il Bomber Destro

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 14, 2016, 10:03:33 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on November 14, 2016, 09:57:08 PM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on November 14, 2016, 09:07:41 PM
It was clearly inferred that the reason for Tyrone clubs lack of success in ulster was due to the fact their championship was that "competitive" teams were spent the time ulster matches came around; comments that the same faces from Armagh/Derry/Down/Monaghan were always there or thereabouts in Ulster was that they "walked" through their championships without challenge which is bull.   

From reading posts, people are clearing trying to make a point the Tyrone championship is the toughest in Ulster.  The point I was trying to make is that if it that tough, and the winner is that deserving of the title, why do they not compete as well as they should?   

Regarding Maghery, semi-finalists, they have done as well as any Tyrone team in ulster in the past 10 years bar Omagh in 2014, as far as I mind the only Tyrone team to reach a final?

Some people may have inferred that but I haven't.

What I have said is that Tyrone have 8 or 9 sides who would be able to hold their own in the Ulster Club Championship, there's not a lot between the top 8 or 9 sides there and while Tyrone may not have a side up there with the likes of Cross/Kilcoo/Slaughtneil/Scotstown they do have plenty of sides who can go into Ulster, win a few games and be competitive against the best teams.

In the other counties mentioned I highly doubt you would have the same. Derry for a long time has been the best club championship in the province but it's now basically a duopoly between Slaughtneil and Ballinderry, all the other sides seem a good distance off these two. Armagh and Down have generally been processions for the past few years for Cross and Kilcoo and we saw the hockeying Maghery got yesterday. Monaghan is an inferior Derry at the minute with an inferior duopoly in Clontibret and Scotstown. Donegal is of a decent standard but a bit like Tyrone doesn't have any super club who will dominate the scene.

On that basis, I would say Tyrone has the strongest club championship in Ulster - I would not use the best team in the county as a marker for the rest - it would be like saying Leinster foobtall is currently the strongest province because Dublin have won 4 of the last 6 AIs.

All about opinions I suppose, Dublin championship would be the strongest in the last ten years for sure... and the likes of Rhode and Portlaois would prop up the rest of Leinster!

I was referring to county level as the contrast. Dublin have won four of the last six AIs yet there hasn't been another side from Leinster in that time who have looked close to breaking the last four.

Il Bomber Destro

Quote from: Maiden1 on November 14, 2016, 10:24:02 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on November 14, 2016, 10:21:08 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on November 14, 2016, 10:06:45 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on November 14, 2016, 09:57:08 PM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on November 14, 2016, 09:07:41 PM
It was clearly inferred that the reason for Tyrone clubs lack of success in ulster was due to the fact their championship was that "competitive" teams were spent the time ulster matches came around; comments that the same faces from Armagh/Derry/Down/Monaghan were always there or thereabouts in Ulster was that they "walked" through their championships without challenge which is bull.   

From reading posts, people are clearing trying to make a point the Tyrone championship is the toughest in Ulster.  The point I was trying to make is that if it that tough, and the winner is that deserving of the title, why do they not compete as well as they should?   

Regarding Maghery, semi-finalists, they have done as well as any Tyrone team in ulster in the past 10 years bar Omagh in 2014, as far as I mind the only Tyrone team to reach a final?

Some people may have inferred that but I haven't.

What I have said is that Tyrone have 8 or 9 sides who would be able to hold their own in the Ulster Club Championship, there's not a lot between the top 8 or 9 sides there and while Tyrone may not have a side up there with the likes of Cross/Kilcoo/Slaughtneil/Scotstown they do have plenty of sides who can go into Ulster, win a few games and be competitive against the best teams.

In the other counties mentioned I highly doubt you would have the same. Derry for a long time has been the best club championship in the province but it's now basically a duopoly between Slaughtneil and Ballinderry, all the other sides seem a good distance off these two. Armagh and Down have generally been processions for the past few years for Cross and Kilcoo and we saw the hockeying Maghery got yesterday. Monaghan is an inferior Derry at the minute with an inferior duopoly in Clontibret and Scotstown. Donegal is of a decent standard but a bit like Tyrone doesn't have any super club who will dominate the scene.

On that basis, I would say Tyrone has the strongest club championship in Ulster - I would not use the best team in the county as a marker for the rest - it would be like saying Leinster foobtall is currently the strongest province because Dublin have won 4 of the last 6 AIs.
Your argument doesn't add up.  Coleraine lost the final last year by a point.  The year before Slaughtneil won the county final with a last minute goal that was arguably not over the line and then got to the all ireland final.  I've already shown that Burren are not far off Kilcoo.  There is no evidence at all that the Tyrone championship is stronger than any other county.

My argument does add up, the same clubs come out of those Championships year on year on year. If The Burren were not far off Kilcoo then Kilcoo would not have won 5 titles on the trot and hammering Burren when it matters.
09 Aug 2015 Burren 2.13 v 2.10 Kilcoo (AET)
13 Sep 2015 Burren 1.9 v 2.7 Kilcoo

07Aug 2016 Kilcoo 1.7 v 2.10 Burren
11 Sep 2016 Kilcoo 4.7 v 2.8 Burren

Ok whatever on Burren.  Look up the list of Derry championship finals if you think it's the same teams.

Finals don't necessitate the spread. I have said both Monaghan and Derry are duopolies. Ballinderry and Slaughtneil have shared the last 6 titles between them in Derry, when they meet it is more or less the de facto final, the same could apply to Monaghan with Clontibret and Scotstown.

Milltown Row2

These are recent stats you are discussing? Last seven years? But this competition is a lot longer so can you do the figures for that?
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

redzone

f**k up now the pair of Yous

grounded

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on November 14, 2016, 09:48:20 PM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on November 14, 2016, 09:07:41 PM
It was clearly inferred that the reason for Tyrone clubs lack of success in ulster was due to the fact their championship was that "competitive" teams were spent the time ulster matches came around; comments that the same faces from Armagh/Derry/Down/Monaghan were always there or thereabouts in Ulster was that they "walked" through their championships without challenge which is bull.   

From reading posts, people are clearing trying to make a point the Tyrone championship is the toughest in Ulster.  The point I was trying to make is that if it that tough, and the winner is that deserving of the title, why do they not compete as well as they should?   

Regarding Maghery, semi-finalists, they have done as well as any Tyrone team in ulster in the past 10 years bar Omagh in 2014, as far as I mind the only Tyrone team to reach a final?


Let's make this clear for the hard of thinking.


I said that Tyrone arguably has the most competitive senior club championship in Ulster. That doesn't mean that it is necessarily the highest caliber among all of them, and IMHO it isn't. For much of the last several decades the Ulster Intercounty Football Championship was the most competitive of the four in terms of teams who could beat each other but at the same time it was perhaps the weakest, fighting alongside Connacht for that claim. For much of the 70's & 80's an Ulster county reaching an All-Ireland final was a major scalp in its own right usually after coming up against Connacht opponents in the semis.


I also said that there could be a number of reasons why Tyrone sides have failed to make much of an impact beyond county borders, but that the fact is that Tyrone reps in the Ulster club SFC competition by and large simply haven't been good enough. Killyclogher were simply not good enough yesterday to overcome Slaughtneil.


OTOH the same competition at Intermediate & Junior levels have seen clubs from Tyrone - and Monaghan - produce a good record and unsurprisingly it is teams from both counties that will be in both finals. Can't speak for Monaghan, but evidence would appear to indicate that the gaps in playing standards between Senior to Intermediate, and Intermediate to Junior in Tyrone are maybe not as wide as they are in several other Ulster counties.


Now enough of this bullshít and let's get the thread back on track to the final between what I'd regard as the two best club sides in Ulster at present.

On that note. I can't see Lavery getting anything like the space he got against the Maghery defence. He ran the show. Glenswilly bottled him up rightly in the previous game and he had to move out the pitch in the second half to get into the game, were he is less of a threat.

Milltown Row2

Quote from: redzone on November 14, 2016, 10:43:30 PM
f**k up now the pair of Yous

I know I should but ... right I'll not discuss it anymore
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

BennyHarp

#387
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 14, 2016, 10:36:43 PM
These are recent stats you are discussing? Last seven years? But this competition is a lot longer so can you do the figures for that?

Ive lost the run of this debate at this stage. What exactly is the point you have arguing here for the past day or so, Milltown? Is it that the Tyrone championship isn't competitive? Or that it is just poor quality? Either way you're like a dog with a bone. Not sure why it matters so much. But it's good to have something futile to focus the mind in the off season, I suppose.

Edit: Taking into account your last post, you can disregard this one! 😃
That was never a square ball!!

Milltown Row2

Quote from: BennyHarp on November 14, 2016, 10:58:05 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 14, 2016, 10:36:43 PM
These are recent stats you are discussing? Last seven years? But this competition is a lot longer so can you do the figures for that?

Ive lost the run of this debate at this stage. What exactly is the point you have arguing here for the past day or so, Milltown? Is it that the Tyrone championship isn't competitive? Or that it is just poor quality? Either way you're like a dog with a bone. Not sure why it matters so much. But it's good to have something futile to focus the mind in the off season, I suppose.

Edit: Taking into account your last post, you can disregard this one! 😃

;D some eejit was confused and yes I was like a dog with a bone!! Stupid I know
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

ose 14

the tyrone championship is the most competitive in ulster in terms of the teams that can win it 7 diff winners in the last 7 years. however bar omagh no tyrone team has reached an ulster final in the last 20 years. this is a poor record for a county that is as competitive. however i think there are mitigating factors. firstly since 2000  the tyrone county team success has diluted the club scene in tyrone. all energy is pointed at garvaghey to the detriment of the clubs. its no surprise when tyrone are dumped out early the senior club championship is better. omagh benefitted from tyrones early exit in 2014. they had their 6 players back early and had time between matches to properly prepare. i think  the derry and armagh clubs and antrim (st galls) have benefitted from early county exits. secondly crossmaglen ballinderry st galls have dominated the ulster club scene since 2000 superb all ireland winning sides. winning ulster in that period isnt easy. it took an excellent errigal team with the greatest player ive ever seen time and patience to get over the line. killyclogher looked poor on sunday (hence club football in tyrone must be poor) however slaughtneil are a superbly conditioned and smart team. and in rodgers at full back mckaigue centre back bradley and cassidy midfield sammy bradley centre half forward and mcguigan at full forward they have a county spine and id argue as good a club spine as there is in the country. this maybe is slaughtneils time i thought they were magnificent in the tackle and there control of the game in the last 20 mins was on a different level to anything ive seen in club football this year. does that mean killyclogher and tyrone football is shite? or maybe like our county team we need to be realistic? that there are better teams out there.