Provincial Championships - is this the beginning of the end?

[twohands!!!]

It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....

This is an error on the schedule - the actual rules for the competition say that the only rule in relation to the groups is that the provincial finalists can't be drawn in the same group as the team they beat in the provincial final.
There is no mention of the Munster Champions and the Connacht Runners-Up being matched up.
For other competitions like the U20 championship where the provincial match-ups rotate, the match-ups for this year are explicitly stated in the rules booklet.
Also last year's booklet did have the breakdown for the semi-final matchups of Connacht or the team that beat them versus Ulster or the team that beat them.
Whoever was preparing the master calendar used finalists when they should have used winners.

[An Watcher]

Headwrecking but quick question.  If Kerry, Dublin, Derry and say sligo all win provincial championships.  All of these finished in the league behind galway, mayo, roscommon and tyrone.  Which teams would be 3rd seeds in the provincial winners group.  For example, would tyrone in 4th place in the league tie up with dublin? Hope someone gets where I'm coming from!!!

[Captain Obvious]

It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....

This is an error on the schedule - the actual rules for the competition say that the only rule in relation to the groups is that the provincial finalists can't be drawn in the same group as the team they beat in the provincial final.
There is no mention of the Munster Champions and the Connacht Runners-Up being matched up.
For other competitions like the U20 championship where the provincial match-ups rotate, the match-ups for this year are explicitly stated in the rules booklet.
Also last year's booklet did have the breakdown for the semi-final matchups of Connacht or the team that beat them versus Ulster or the team that beat them.
Whoever was preparing the master calendar used finalists when they should have used winners.

If it's an error it would be corrected already?

The schedule suggests it's not error.

Connacht and Munster finals on May 7th and two weeks later four finalists play their round 1 group game May 20th/21

Leinster and Ulster on May 14th and two weeks later four finalists play their round 1 group game on May 27th/28th

[twohands!!!]

Headwrecking but quick question.  If Kerry, Dublin, Derry and say sligo all win provincial championships.  All of these finished in the league behind galway, mayo, roscommon and tyrone.  Which teams would be 3rd seeds in the provincial winners group.  For example, would tyrone in 4th place in the league tie up with dublin? Hope someone gets where I'm coming from!!!

If Derry win the Ulster final that means that Tyrone either lost to Monaghan or Derry.
There is no way Tyrone can get to a Ulster final if Derry win it.
As they finished 4th in the league Tyrone would be one of the 3rd seeds - they could get drawn in any of the groups - they could even get drawn to play Derry again
Whichever 1 of Galway, Mayo or Roscommon lost the Connacht final would make up 1 of the number 2 seeds.
Whichever 2 of Galway, Mayo or Roscommon didn't get to the Connacht final would make up  2 of the number 3 seeds.
Tyrone can get drawn in any group i.e they could be in the group with Sligo or the group with Galway.
They would be playing one of the number 1 seeds.
The 4 number 1 seeds would be Kerry, Dublin, Derry and Sligo.

I'm not sure what you are asking in relation to Dublin.

[dec]

Headwrecking but quick question.  If Kerry, Dublin, Derry and say sligo all win provincial championships.  All of these finished in the league behind galway, mayo, roscommon and tyrone.  Which teams would be 3rd seeds in the provincial winners group.  For example, would tyrone in 4th place in the league tie up with dublin? Hope someone gets where I'm coming from!!!

If Derry win the Ulster final that means that Tyrone either lost to Monaghan or Derry.
There is no way Tyrone can get to a Ulster final if Derry win it.
As they finished 4th in the league Tyrone would be one of the 3rd seeds - they could get drawn in any of the groups - they could even get drawn to play Derry again
Whichever 1 of Galway, Mayo or Roscommon lost the Connacht final would make up 1 of the number 2 seeds.
Whichever 2 of Galway, Mayo or Roscommon didn't get to the Connacht final would make up  2 of the number 3 seeds.
Tyrone can get drawn in any group i.e they could be in the group with Sligo or the group with Galway.
They would be playing one of the number 1 seeds.
The 4 number 1 seeds would be Kerry, Dublin, Derry and Sligo.

I'm not sure what you are asking in relation to Dublin.

and this is an improvement over past systems?

[twohands!!!]

It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....

This is an error on the schedule - the actual rules for the competition say that the only rule in relation to the groups is that the provincial finalists can't be drawn in the same group as the team they beat in the provincial final.
There is no mention of the Munster Champions and the Connacht Runners-Up being matched up.
For other competitions like the U20 championship where the provincial match-ups rotate, the match-ups for this year are explicitly stated in the rules booklet.
Also last year's booklet did have the breakdown for the semi-final matchups of Connacht or the team that beat them versus Ulster or the team that beat them.
Whoever was preparing the master calendar used finalists when they should have used winners.

If it's an error it would be corrected already?

The schedule suggests it's not error.

Connacht and Munster finals on May 7th and two weeks later four finalists play their round 1 group game May 20th/21

Leinster and Ulster on May 14th and two weeks later four finalists play their round 1 group game on May 27th/28th

The rules suggest that it is an error because of the fact that they say

Each Group shall consist of one team from each of the seeded classifications in (a) to (d) above.
Teams who have already met in that year's provincial final cannot be drawn to the same group.

If there were any sort of provincial link-up like you are suggesting it would be stated in the rules, like it is stated in the same booklet for other GAA competitions and like it was stated in last year's version of the booklet when there was provincial match-ups.
There would be no need to state that teams who have already met in the provincial final cannot be drawn in the same group if there was to be a provincial element to the draw i.e if the Munster winners were always going to be playing the Connacht runners-up, why would you bother to include in the rules the rule that the none of the provincial winners can be drawn in the same group as the team they beat in the provincial final. The only reason for including this is if there is no provincial match-up fixed. 

If you think that an error would be corrected by now you clearly don't have too much experience dealing with the GAA bureacracy.

[twohands!!!]

Headwrecking but quick question.  If Kerry, Dublin, Derry and say sligo all win provincial championships.  All of these finished in the league behind galway, mayo, roscommon and tyrone.  Which teams would be 3rd seeds in the provincial winners group.  For example, would tyrone in 4th place in the league tie up with dublin? Hope someone gets where I'm coming from!!!

If Derry win the Ulster final that means that Tyrone either lost to Monaghan or Derry.
There is no way Tyrone can get to a Ulster final if Derry win it.
As they finished 4th in the league Tyrone would be one of the 3rd seeds - they could get drawn in any of the groups - they could even get drawn to play Derry again
Whichever 1 of Galway, Mayo or Roscommon lost the Connacht final would make up 1 of the number 2 seeds.
Whichever 2 of Galway, Mayo or Roscommon didn't get to the Connacht final would make up  2 of the number 3 seeds.
Tyrone can get drawn in any group i.e they could be in the group with Sligo or the group with Galway.
They would be playing one of the number 1 seeds.
The 4 number 1 seeds would be Kerry, Dublin, Derry and Sligo.

I'm not sure what you are asking in relation to Dublin.

and this is an improvement over past systems?

The new system is undoubtedly an improvement on what was there previously. It's not perfect but it is a good bit better than what it is replacing.

Automatically thinking that just because something has some bit of complexity to it means that that it can't be an improvement is the type of thinking that would have us still living in the trees.

[Captain Obvious]

It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....

This is an error on the schedule - the actual rules for the competition say that the only rule in relation to the groups is that the provincial finalists can't be drawn in the same group as the team they beat in the provincial final.
There is no mention of the Munster Champions and the Connacht Runners-Up being matched up.
For other competitions like the U20 championship where the provincial match-ups rotate, the match-ups for this year are explicitly stated in the rules booklet.
Also last year's booklet did have the breakdown for the semi-final matchups of Connacht or the team that beat them versus Ulster or the team that beat them.
Whoever was preparing the master calendar used finalists when they should have used winners.

If it's an error it would be corrected already?

The schedule suggests it's not error.

Connacht and Munster finals on May 7th and two weeks later four finalists play their round 1 group game May 20th/21

Leinster and Ulster on May 14th and two weeks later four finalists play their round 1 group game on May 27th/28th

The rules suggest that it is an error because of the fact that they say

Each Group shall consist of one team from each of the seeded classifications in (a) to (d) above.
Teams who have already met in that year’s provincial final cannot be drawn to the same group.

If there were any sort of provincial link-up like you are suggesting it would be stated in the rules, like it is stated in the same booklet for other GAA competitions and like it was stated in last year's version of the booklet when there was provincial match-ups.
There would be no need to state that teams who have already met in the provincial final cannot be drawn in the same group if there was to be a provincial element to the draw i.e if the Munster winners were always going to be playing the Connacht runners-up, why would you bother to include in the rules the rule that the none of the provincial winners can be drawn in the same group as the team they beat in the provincial final. The only reason for including this is if there is no provincial match-up fixed. 

If you think that an error would be corrected by now you clearly don't have too much experience dealing with the GAA bureacracy.

Errors have been made in the past i know however it's April on Saturday and group stages starting May 20th.  As I said about scheduling why would a beaten Connacht,Munster finalist have potentially 3 weeks to prepare for their round 1 group match  and the Connacht,Munster winner only two weeks?

[Eire90]

Does this system have a 3 year trial like supers 8s

[Itchy]

It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....

Surely it will have to be the Sweet 16.

[onefineday]

Influence of this thread come from reading the opinion of Ciarán McKeever?  You are using the same headline from the Irish Independent anyway

Completely independent of each other!! I saw the article this evening and was thinking that was a similar headline, fecking ndo journos stealing my line again!!

[blanketattack]

It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....

Surely it will have to be the Sweet 16.

The 4x4? The matrix?
The round after that better have a funky name. The competition will live or die based on what they call that round.

[onefineday]

It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....

Surely it will have to be the Sweet 16.

The 4x4? The matrix?
The round after that better have a funky name. The competition will live or die based on what they call that round.

The final 12?
I think they're planning on calling it preliminary quarter finals?

As I said at the start, this is the beginning of the end for the provinces, with 3 teams qualifying from each group, you just have to win a match pretty much. Then it's knockout. Be better to win your group of course, but not essential and either way, progressing in your province ain't necessarily going to improve your chances of winning the group by enough to justify the efforts and risks.
Expect the prestige and appeal of provincial football championships to fade away over the next 5-10 years.

[Hound]

It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....

This is an error on the schedule - the actual rules for the competition say that the only rule in relation to the groups is that the provincial finalists can't be drawn in the same group as the team they beat in the provincial final.
There is no mention of the Munster Champions and the Connacht Runners-Up being matched up.
For other competitions like the U20 championship where the provincial match-ups rotate, the match-ups for this year are explicitly stated in the rules booklet.
Also last year's booklet did have the breakdown for the semi-final matchups of Connacht or the team that beat them versus Ulster or the team that beat them.
Whoever was preparing the master calendar used finalists when they should have used winners.

If it's an error it would be corrected already?

The schedule suggests it's not error.

Connacht and Munster finals on May 7th and two weeks later four finalists play their round 1 group game May 20th/21

Leinster and Ulster on May 14th and two weeks later four finalists play their round 1 group game on May 27th/28th

The rules suggest that it is an error because of the fact that they say

Each Group shall consist of one team from each of the seeded classifications in (a) to (d) above.
Teams who have already met in that year's provincial final cannot be drawn to the same group.

If there were any sort of provincial link-up like you are suggesting it would be stated in the rules, like it is stated in the same booklet for other GAA competitions and like it was stated in last year's version of the booklet when there was provincial match-ups.
There would be no need to state that teams who have already met in the provincial final cannot be drawn in the same group if there was to be a provincial element to the draw i.e if the Munster winners were always going to be playing the Connacht runners-up, why would you bother to include in the rules the rule that the none of the provincial winners can be drawn in the same group as the team they beat in the provincial final. The only reason for including this is if there is no provincial match-up fixed. 

If you think that an error would be corrected by now you clearly don't have too much experience dealing with the GAA bureacracy.

twohands, the reason it is not stated in the rules is because the provincial match-ups rotate each year.

So Ulster winners and Leinster runners up will be in the same group this year.  The fixture list is pretty clear on this, and guarantees every team who makes a provincial final a 2 week gap before their first group game.

Leinster winners and Ulster runners-up will also be in the same group (which will be known as the "Group of Death" as there'll be at least one other good team in it too  ).
In fact probably every year, the Ulster runners-up would likely be part of the "Group of Death" 

[Rossfan]

It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....

Surely it will have to be the Sweet 16.

The 4x4? The matrix?
The round after that better have a funky name. The competition will live or die based on what they call that round.

The final 12?
I think they're planning on calling it preliminary quarter finals?

As I said at the start, this is the beginning of the end for the provinces, with 3 teams qualifying from each group, you just have to win a match pretty much. Then it's knockout. Be better to win your group of course, but not essential and either way, progressing in your province ain't necessarily going to improve your chances of winning the group by enough to justify the efforts and risks.
Expect the prestige and appeal of provincial football championships to fade away over the next 5-10 years.

Never existed in Munster, long since faded in Leinster.