Messages

1

GAA Discussion / Re: Provincial Championships - is this the beginning of the end?

« on: March 31, 2023, 11:23:44 AM »

It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....

This is an error on the schedule - the actual rules for the competition say that the only rule in relation to the groups is that the provincial finalists can't be drawn in the same group as the team they beat in the provincial final.
There is no mention of the Munster Champions and the Connacht Runners-Up being matched up.
For other competitions like the U20 championship where the provincial match-ups rotate, the match-ups for this year are explicitly stated in the rules booklet.
Also last year's booklet did have the breakdown for the semi-final matchups of Connacht or the team that beat them versus Ulster or the team that beat them.
Whoever was preparing the master calendar used finalists when they should have used winners.

If it's an error it would be corrected already?

The schedule suggests it's not error.

Connacht and Munster finals on May 7th and two weeks later four finalists play their round 1 group game May 20th/21

Leinster and Ulster on May 14th and two weeks later four finalists play their round 1 group game on May 27th/28th

The rules suggest that it is an error because of the fact that they say

Each Group shall consist of one team from each of the seeded classifications in (a) to (d) above.
Teams who have already met in that year’s provincial final cannot be drawn to the same group.

If there were any sort of provincial link-up like you are suggesting it would be stated in the rules, like it is stated in the same booklet for other GAA competitions and like it was stated in last year's version of the booklet when there was provincial match-ups.
There would be no need to state that teams who have already met in the provincial final cannot be drawn in the same group if there was to be a provincial element to the draw i.e if the Munster winners were always going to be playing the Connacht runners-up, why would you bother to include in the rules the rule that the none of the provincial winners can be drawn in the same group as the team they beat in the provincial final. The only reason for including this is if there is no provincial match-up fixed. 

If you think that an error would be corrected by now you clearly don't have too much experience dealing with the GAA bureacracy.

twohands, the reason it is not stated in the rules is because the provincial match-ups rotate each year.

So Ulster winners and Leinster runners up will be in the same group this year.  The fixture list is pretty clear on this, and guarantees every team who makes a provincial final a 2 week gap before their first group game.

Leinster winners and Ulster runners-up will also be in the same group (which will be known as the "Group of Death" as there'll be at least one other good team in it too  ).
In fact probably every year, the Ulster runners-up would likely be part of the "Group of Death" 

Except in last year's version of the rules it was included.

Also this year's version of the rules booklet explicitly spells it out for other competitions where the provincal round-ups rotate like the U20 football championship semi-finals and the various club competitions.

2

GAA Discussion / Re: Provincial Championships - is this the beginning of the end?

« on: March 30, 2023, 08:44:07 PM »

Headwrecking but quick question.  If Kerry, Dublin, Derry and say sligo all win provincial championships.  All of these finished in the league behind galway, mayo, roscommon and tyrone.  Which teams would be 3rd seeds in the provincial winners group.  For example, would tyrone in 4th place in the league tie up with dublin? Hope someone gets where I'm coming from!!!

If Derry win the Ulster final that means that Tyrone either lost to Monaghan or Derry.
There is no way Tyrone can get to a Ulster final if Derry win it.
As they finished 4th in the league Tyrone would be one of the 3rd seeds - they could get drawn in any of the groups - they could even get drawn to play Derry again
Whichever 1 of Galway, Mayo or Roscommon lost the Connacht final would make up 1 of the number 2 seeds.
Whichever 2 of Galway, Mayo or Roscommon didn't get to the Connacht final would make up  2 of the number 3 seeds.
Tyrone can get drawn in any group i.e they could be in the group with Sligo or the group with Galway.
They would be playing one of the number 1 seeds.
The 4 number 1 seeds would be Kerry, Dublin, Derry and Sligo.

I'm not sure what you are asking in relation to Dublin.

and this is an improvement over past systems?

The new system is undoubtedly an improvement on what was there previously. It's not perfect but it is a good bit better than what it is replacing.

Automatically thinking that just because something has some bit of complexity to it means that that it can't be an improvement is the type of thinking that would have us still living in the trees.

3

GAA Discussion / Re: Provincial Championships - is this the beginning of the end?

« on: March 30, 2023, 08:38:55 PM »

It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....

This is an error on the schedule - the actual rules for the competition say that the only rule in relation to the groups is that the provincial finalists can't be drawn in the same group as the team they beat in the provincial final.
There is no mention of the Munster Champions and the Connacht Runners-Up being matched up.
For other competitions like the U20 championship where the provincial match-ups rotate, the match-ups for this year are explicitly stated in the rules booklet.
Also last year's booklet did have the breakdown for the semi-final matchups of Connacht or the team that beat them versus Ulster or the team that beat them.
Whoever was preparing the master calendar used finalists when they should have used winners.

If it's an error it would be corrected already?

The schedule suggests it's not error.

Connacht and Munster finals on May 7th and two weeks later four finalists play their round 1 group game May 20th/21

Leinster and Ulster on May 14th and two weeks later four finalists play their round 1 group game on May 27th/28th

The rules suggest that it is an error because of the fact that they say

Each Group shall consist of one team from each of the seeded classifications in (a) to (d) above.
Teams who have already met in that year’s provincial final cannot be drawn to the same group.

If there were any sort of provincial link-up like you are suggesting it would be stated in the rules, like it is stated in the same booklet for other GAA competitions and like it was stated in last year's version of the booklet when there was provincial match-ups.
There would be no need to state that teams who have already met in the provincial final cannot be drawn in the same group if there was to be a provincial element to the draw i.e if the Munster winners were always going to be playing the Connacht runners-up, why would you bother to include in the rules the rule that the none of the provincial winners can be drawn in the same group as the team they beat in the provincial final. The only reason for including this is if there is no provincial match-up fixed. 

If you think that an error would be corrected by now you clearly don't have too much experience dealing with the GAA bureacracy.

4

GAA Discussion / Re: Provincial Championships - is this the beginning of the end?

« on: March 30, 2023, 08:29:31 PM »

Headwrecking but quick question.  If Kerry, Dublin, Derry and say sligo all win provincial championships.  All of these finished in the league behind galway, mayo, roscommon and tyrone.  Which teams would be 3rd seeds in the provincial winners group.  For example, would tyrone in 4th place in the league tie up with dublin? Hope someone gets where I'm coming from!!!

If Derry win the Ulster final that means that Tyrone either lost to Monaghan or Derry.
There is no way Tyrone can get to a Ulster final if Derry win it.
As they finished 4th in the league Tyrone would be one of the 3rd seeds - they could get drawn in any of the groups - they could even get drawn to play Derry again
Whichever 1 of Galway, Mayo or Roscommon lost the Connacht final would make up 1 of the number 2 seeds.
Whichever 2 of Galway, Mayo or Roscommon didn't get to the Connacht final would make up  2 of the number 3 seeds.
Tyrone can get drawn in any group i.e they could be in the group with Sligo or the group with Galway.
They would be playing one of the number 1 seeds.
The 4 number 1 seeds would be Kerry, Dublin, Derry and Sligo.

I'm not sure what you are asking in relation to Dublin.

5

GAA Discussion / Re: Provincial Championships - is this the beginning of the end?

« on: March 30, 2023, 08:07:46 PM »

It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....

This is an error on the schedule - the actual rules for the competition say that the only rule in relation to the groups is that the provincial finalists can't be drawn in the same group as the team they beat in the provincial final.
There is no mention of the Munster Champions and the Connacht Runners-Up being matched up.
For other competitions like the U20 championship where the provincial match-ups rotate, the match-ups for this year are explicitly stated in the rules booklet.
Also last year's booklet did have the breakdown for the semi-final matchups of Connacht or the team that beat them versus Ulster or the team that beat them.
Whoever was preparing the master calendar used finalists when they should have used winners.

6

GAA Discussion / Re: Provincial Championships - is this the beginning of the end?

« on: March 30, 2023, 06:09:24 PM »

If Kerry win Munster they go into a pretty easy Super-16 group including Sligo as 2nd seeds, which would leave them half-baked going into the 1/4 finals.
Kerry would be better off losing to Tipp and get a tougher group.
Kerry's only motivation to win Munster is so that Cork don't win it.

Seems unfair to have Leinster, Munster and Connaught runners-up as 2nd seeds when 3rd and 4th best in Ulster are better and will end up being 3rd or 4th seeds.

I think you are wrong about the rules in relation to the Super-16s.
The only rule in the rule-book about the make-up of the groups is that the provincial winner and the team they beat in the provincial final can't be drawn in the same group.
Apart from that there are no restrictions. So if Kerry win Munster they have a one in three chance of being drawn against the Connacht, Leinster or Ulster provincial loser.

Two of Galway, Mayo and Roscommon are going to be the 2 of the 3rd seeds as only one of these can get to a provincial final.
Tyrone if they don't get to the provincial final would fill the next spot.
Kerry if they don't get to the provincial final would fill the next spot.
Monaghan if don't get to the provincial final would fill the next spot if there is still space in the 3rd seed pot.
Also because Monaghan play Tyrone at least one of those two teams will be a 3rd seed and it could be both, if either Derry or Fermanagh win that Ulster semi-final.
At the moment the final league standing for Derry and Dublin hasn't been decided - whoever wins on Sunday is ranked higher.
Whichever of Derry/Dublin win the Division 2 final and don't get to the provincial final, would be the next team to be 3rd seed (if there was still space in the 3rd seeds pot) and whoever loses the Division 2 final would be next in line to take the last 3rd seed place (if there is still space in the 3rd seed pot).
Because only one of Derry, Monaghan and Tyrone can get to the Ulster final, two of Derry, Monaghan and Tyrone will make up the third seeds if Kerry and Dublin get to their provincial finals.


The league rankings at the moment are

Galway/Mayo - both 1st until after Sunday - in reality the result Sunday doesn't affect anything
Roscommon 3rd
Tyrone 4th
Kerry 5th
Monaghan 6th
Derry/Dublin 7th/8th - not decided until Sunday

At the moment Westmeath are one of the 4 4th seeds.

The other 3 4th seeds are made up of the 7th best league finisher after the 8 provincial teams are taken out, the 6th best league finisher after the 8 provincial teams are taken out
and the 5th best league finisher after the 8 provincial teams are removed from the rankings.
If Westmeath gets to the Leinster final the 8th best league finisher after the 8 provincial teams are taken out will replace Westmeath as the 4th 4th seed.

Armagh 9th
Donegal 10th
Louth 11th
Cork 12th
Kildare 13th
Meath 14th
Fermanagh/Cavan 15th/16th  - not decided until Sunday

Armagh are the highest ranked team who could be 4th seeds.

7

GAA Discussion / Re: NFL Division 1 2023

« on: March 30, 2023, 01:44:56 PM »

it did seem he did not know how seeding worked or he thinks its not that important

“The way the whole season is crammed in now it looks like this is the beginning of the end of the Ulster championship the way it’s all going,” he said.

“We will be going out to try and compete to win every match but we are under no illusion – our main priority is the super 16s. That’s when the real football starts.”

“There is no incentive now to go and win an Ulster championship,” he insisted.

McKeever doesn't seem to have even a basic understanding of the new structure. Pretty much exposed himself as clueless.

Say Armagh did win Ulster this year - that would mean that they would definitely avoid all of the other provincial winners in the group stages which would surely increase their changes of getting past the group stages.

Even getting to an Ulster final would mean they would avoid all of the other provincial runners-up (which is probably not as great a benefit as it would be in other years because of the Connacht draw but most years a 2nd place seeding would mean avoiding one of Mayo/Galway/Roscommon)

By comparison as a 3rd or 4th seed Armagh would be guaranteed to play at least one provincial winner and one provincial loser in the group stages.

Also there is no protection for them to avoid any Ulster teams in the group stages if they end up as 3rd or 4th seed - the only protection/restriction is that the provincial winner and the provincial loser can't be drawn in the same group.

That's before you even consider the advantage the 1st and 2nd seeds have as regards their fixtures.

With all the effort it took to get the new structure accross the line, I don't see any significant changes being made for a good few years so I think that the Ulster championship is here to stay for a good few years yet, even though in time the Ulster counties are bound to be giving out about how it is harder for them to win an All-Ireland. I wonder will any of the county officials look back and realise that voting against the Green proposal effectively brought this on themselves.

8

GAA Discussion / Re: NFL Division 1 2023

« on: March 29, 2023, 06:10:17 PM »

I'd be surprised if Donegal get past Down in the first round. The repercussions of this years shenanigans will not be solved in a few short weeks and may affect Donegal football for years to come.

The thing is that if Donegal do lose against Down they will still have 3 games in the round-robin stages.
Odds are this will likely be in the All-Ireland so one game against a provincial winner, one against a provincial loser and probably against a 3rd seed.
If there isn't some improvement from how they performed in the Mayo and Roscommon games it could get be a nasty summer for them.
Before the championship is over there might well be some Donegal folk who are hankering for the old days when you could go out of the Ulster championship in the first round and be done for the year.

9

GAA Discussion / Re: Tailteann Cup 2022

« on: March 29, 2023, 05:58:02 PM »

Clearly a flaw in the competitions is allowing provincial finalists a backdoor out of the Tailteann and into the Sam Maguire. Should only be the provincial winners (and last year's Taliteann winners of course) that can skip their league placing.

I don't agree actually. With your logic here, you're putting more weight on League results than actual Championship results in the previous 3 weeks in that actual Championship. Championship is the main competition, and that should be rewarded so. A team getting to a final should be rewarded for having a good year.

I will quantify that by saying the draws should be seeded to prevent a Division 4 team getting to a final by not playing anyone decent, like Connacht this year. Seed the draws, and if you then make it through to a final by beating quality teams, then you fully deserve your place there

I'd firmly be in the more weight should be put on the league results.

Plenty of poor/average teams over the years have ended up getting to a provincial final because of a kind draw/becaue they were less worse than the opposition on a given day.

10

GAA Discussion / Re: 2023 League Competition - Finals prediction - closes Fri Midnight

« on: March 27, 2023, 10:25:31 AM »

Sligo   by 3
Cavan by 3
Derry by 3
Galway by   3

11

GAA Discussion / Re: Ulster U20 Championship 2023

« on: March 26, 2023, 05:13:03 PM »

Tyrone had 308 registered underage football teams in 2022 while Armagh had 282.

Tyrone had the 12th hightest number of underage teams while Armagh had the 16th overall.

Not exactly a massive gap in the numbers to pick from.

The numbers in other Ulster counties.

Antrim 213
Cavan 296
Derry 268
Donegal 325
Down 298
Fermanagh 136
Monaghan 232

Fair to say Tyrone looking like serious over-achievers in terms of numbers and success.

I'd like to see the actual breakdown of that data. Armagh have 44 senior clubs, Tyrone have 53, a 17% difference in actual clubs, but it doesn't tell you the difference in sizes, memberships and most importantly quality.

Tyrone are undoubtedly doing a lot right at underage but i've always thought Derry are the real over achievers in underage county football in Ulster.

Those figures were taken from the GAA Annual Report which doesn't break it down any further.

Also these figures don't give the breakdown by age ranges which would tell if numbers are growing/stagnant or falling.

12

GAA Discussion / Re: Ulster U20 Championship 2023

« on: March 26, 2023, 12:36:26 PM »

Tyrone had 308 registered underage football teams in 2022 while Armagh had 282.

Tyrone had the 12th hightest number of underage teams while Armagh had the 16th overall.

Not exactly a massive gap in the numbers to pick from.

The numbers in other Ulster counties.

Antrim 213
Cavan 296
Derry 268
Donegal 325
Down 298
Fermanagh 136
Monaghan 232

Fair to say Tyrone looking like serious over-achievers in terms of numbers and success.

13

GAA Discussion / Re: Gaelic football is crap- and needs to change ASAP

« on: March 23, 2023, 05:43:10 PM »

I watched 10 minutes of Monaghan and Tyrone and switched it over. Genuinely couldn’t be arsed watching Monaghans slow build up, passing the ball across the pitch and back, constantly afraid or unable to slice a pass into the forwards. The outcome looked inevitable within minutes, Tyrone with everyone back, then breaking up field when Monaghan give it away and nick a score.  Boring predictable shite .

Football has become a game that is very difficult to attract a neutral, I struggle to watch games that ive no dog in the fight and anyone I talk to seems to be the same. Hurling still has the appeal that you can watch a game between 2 top teams and it keeps you interested, football not so much.

I'm getting the same way too. You watch a game, and head down to throw the laundry in the dryer, and three or four minutes later you come back and maybe, just maybe, there's been a point scored. Leaving aside our current predicament, I'm even close to giving up on watching Donegal, such is the lack of enjoyment to be had from watching them. I said it in the thread for last year's Ulster Final, a game in which we were very competitive and could have won, that it would have been a hollow victory, so grim was the fare that was served up (think I said the same in the '16 final when Tyrone nicked it right at the end). We had some promising, fast moving football under Bonner in 18 and 19, but its been utterly dreadful since then and unfortunately the vast majority of the other teams are the same. Even watching Dublin go about their methodical, systematic, possession-based takedown of the opposition towards the end of the six in a row period was as dull as watching paint dry.

Apart from David Clifford and Shane Walsh and the runners of Mayo and your county loyalty, there just isn't much to attract spectators in gaelic football these days.

You'd wonder how that's different to games 20 years ago when scorelines are broadly the same?

Plenty of reasons, more frees now a days, a lot more scores come from dead balls now than did in the early 00s for example, id love to see the free counts from games in the 00s compared to now, forwards are told to go down like they've been shot if touched inside the 45 as its a free hit for a score, again down to the stats. Less wides, teams are now instructed not to shoot outside 'scoring zone' and 'give it to the shooters' you end up with similar scores but far less entertainment, teams holding the ball rather than shooting a wide and giving up possession.

its a different game now, the days of players/ teams being man for man is pretty much gone unfortunately, I often look and think how would a Peter canavan or a Mulligan get by today?

The game is now dictated by analysis and GPS. players are given stats a after a game and there are teams that if the players stats aren't good he's dropped, no wonder players are robotic.

The more frees now is definitely an issue. In the 80’s you’d have to take a limb off half the time to get a free. Too much diving and conning of the ref. The rules have all been tinkered to suit the forward in the hope this will make creative football. The adverse effect of that is that teams know one on one, 9 times out of 10, the forward will either get past the defender or win a free. Therefore the next logical step is to prevent 1 on 1’s. Make it easier to defend, enforce the steps more, allow that bit more contact in the tackle and you’d see defenders might be more confident 1 on 1. Until then, logic will always make the least risky option the most favourable. And that means packed defences and breaking at speed to get a score or free in a good position.

The problem is that teams have worked out that it makes sense to foul a lot of the time.

While there is some diving and conning of the ref, it is only a tiny percentage of the time- well over 95% of the time a free is awarded it is because of foul playe by the defender

I think a large part of the problem is that the punishment for conceding a foul isn't harsh enough.

If there was adequate punishment for committing foul play/cheating the amount of frees conceded would drop instantly.

It’s hard to claim one way or another I suppose. But in my view, there’s fouls now considered for minimal contact, which according to the text book could be identified as a foul. But should they be? I think given the nature of the game, we should tolerate a higher level of contact. But given the tackle is so loosely defined it’s hard to say how that would be done. I think refs tend to err more on the side of caution now for fear of being overanalysed. How often hear in club games how a ref gets praised for letting the game flow. You see that less and less at county level imo.

It's not that hard to see that under the current rules it makes sense for teams to go out and foul constantly.

If it didn't make sense to foul, teams wouldn't be doing it.

When's the last time there was a championsip game with no foul play/cheating ?

Anytime I hear any ref being praised for letting the game flow I just think it's a politically correct way of saying that the person is fine with allowing cheating if it makes the game more dramatic and that fairness isn't important to that individual.

Also the blame is never placed on players or management for a game not flowing/being stop-start when they have far more to do with it than a referee. I've yet to see a game where a referee was out there deliberately breaking the rules. The fact that as you go up the underage levels discipline gets worse and worse until you get to adult level is a pretty poor reflection on the GAA.

More physical contact adds pretty much nothing in my opinion. Requires little to no skill, just being willing to impose yourself/increase the risk of hurting your opponent. Just encourages lads to spend more time in the gym/less time practising skills/ punishes the smaller and weaker individual.

If people want to see a game where players bodies and welfare is put at risk for the sake of more physical contact there's plenty of rugby games to be found.

14

GAA Discussion / Re: NFL Division 1 2023

« on: March 23, 2023, 05:32:40 PM »

If Leitrim and /or Sligo get to the D4 Final they have NY/London away the following weekend!

Bonkers of scheduling.

And not one bit need for it.

With the split season two weeks between the Connacht quarter-finals and the semi-finals seems excessive.

Can't help but feel it's already a holdover from a time when there were a lot less games. 

Probably be a bit of a nightmare to reschedule flights to Ny and London.

15

GAA Discussion / Re: Gaelic football is crap- and needs to change ASAP

« on: March 23, 2023, 03:50:51 PM »

I watched 10 minutes of Monaghan and Tyrone and switched it over. Genuinely couldn’t be arsed watching Monaghans slow build up, passing the ball across the pitch and back, constantly afraid or unable to slice a pass into the forwards. The outcome looked inevitable within minutes, Tyrone with everyone back, then breaking up field when Monaghan give it away and nick a score.  Boring predictable shite .

Football has become a game that is very difficult to attract a neutral, I struggle to watch games that ive no dog in the fight and anyone I talk to seems to be the same. Hurling still has the appeal that you can watch a game between 2 top teams and it keeps you interested, football not so much.

I'm getting the same way too. You watch a game, and head down to throw the laundry in the dryer, and three or four minutes later you come back and maybe, just maybe, there's been a point scored. Leaving aside our current predicament, I'm even close to giving up on watching Donegal, such is the lack of enjoyment to be had from watching them. I said it in the thread for last year's Ulster Final, a game in which we were very competitive and could have won, that it would have been a hollow victory, so grim was the fare that was served up (think I said the same in the '16 final when Tyrone nicked it right at the end). We had some promising, fast moving football under Bonner in 18 and 19, but its been utterly dreadful since then and unfortunately the vast majority of the other teams are the same. Even watching Dublin go about their methodical, systematic, possession-based takedown of the opposition towards the end of the six in a row period was as dull as watching paint dry.

Apart from David Clifford and Shane Walsh and the runners of Mayo and your county loyalty, there just isn't much to attract spectators in gaelic football these days.

You'd wonder how that's different to games 20 years ago when scorelines are broadly the same?

Plenty of reasons, more frees now a days, a lot more scores come from dead balls now than did in the early 00s for example, id love to see the free counts from games in the 00s compared to now, forwards are told to go down like they've been shot if touched inside the 45 as its a free hit for a score, again down to the stats. Less wides, teams are now instructed not to shoot outside 'scoring zone' and 'give it to the shooters' you end up with similar scores but far less entertainment, teams holding the ball rather than shooting a wide and giving up possession.

its a different game now, the days of players/ teams being man for man is pretty much gone unfortunately, I often look and think how would a Peter canavan or a Mulligan get by today?

The game is now dictated by analysis and GPS. players are given stats a after a game and there are teams that if the players stats aren't good he's dropped, no wonder players are robotic.

The more frees now is definitely an issue. In the 80’s you’d have to take a limb off half the time to get a free. Too much diving and conning of the ref. The rules have all been tinkered to suit the forward in the hope this will make creative football. The adverse effect of that is that teams know one on one, 9 times out of 10, the forward will either get past the defender or win a free. Therefore the next logical step is to prevent 1 on 1’s. Make it easier to defend, enforce the steps more, allow that bit more contact in the tackle and you’d see defenders might be more confident 1 on 1. Until then, logic will always make the least risky option the most favourable. And that means packed defences and breaking at speed to get a score or free in a good position.

The problem is that teams have worked out that it makes sense to foul a lot of the time.

While there is some diving and conning of the ref, it is only a tiny percentage of the time- well over 95% of the time a free is awarded it is because of foul playe by the defender

I think a large part of the problem is that the punishment for conceding a foul isn't harsh enough.

If there was adequate punishment for committing foul play/cheating the amount of frees conceded would drop instantly.