Author Topic: Sam Maguire permutations  (Read 29553 times)

Fuzzman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4631
  • Aughabrack (Tyrone Not Cork)
    • View Profile
Re: Sam Maguire permutations
« Reply #465 on: May 25, 2023, 05:26:48 PM »
I was looking back over the last 20 years at what teams were making the AI semifinals the most and have listed below, the last 10 years semi finalists. No surprise with the top 3 anyway although amazing Tipp have made more semis than any other Ulster team bar Tyrone. Interestingly back in the 00's you had Cork and Meath up there too.

Obviously for years we are used to Kerry and Dublin being the two main favourites to make it into the semis or the final but Mayo in the last 10 years have joined them with Galway nowhere to be seen for years until recently.
The Ulster champions have a tendency to put in great performances in Ulster and provide good early form but then often disappoint in Croker. Donegal and Monaghan have been doing this for years although Derry reached their first semi last year since 2004, although they did easily hammer Clare.

Galway lost to the Super Dubs in 2018 whilst Monaghan made their first semifinal since the All Ireland series started but still struggle to win in HQ.

In my eyes it's only when you really beat one of the top 3 or 4 teams from the year before that you be truly considered an AI contender. Tyrone hadn't beaten Kerry, Dublin or Mayo from 2008 until 2021 although they did get to a few semis.

I'm a little surprised how many people are talking up this Galway team who got to the final last year but hadn't beaten any of so called big guns on the way. They beat the Rossies in the Connacht final and then struggled to beat Armagh. They did beat Derry quite well in the end in a very defensive match with both teams seemingly at similar levels during the league.

Galway put up a good performance in the final but in my eyes they are being slightly over stated as one of this years strong favourites just on last years showing. I suppose they have improved a bit during the league and with Walsh and Comer in their team they are always in with a good shout. In my eyes Walsh didn't really stand out all year except in the final whilst Comer was the opposite.
I'm sure Mayo are loving such talk and would relish meeting them later in the year.

Team       Semifinal appearances in last 10 years
Dublin   10
Kerry     8
Mayo      8
Tyrone   6
Galway   2
Tipp       2
Donegal  1
Derry      1
Monaghan1
Cavan      1

seafoid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31366
    • View Profile
Re: Sam Maguire permutations
« Reply #466 on: May 25, 2023, 06:09:30 PM »
I was looking back over the last 20 years at what teams were making the AI semifinals the most and have listed below, the last 10 years semi finalists. No surprise with the top 3 anyway although amazing Tipp have made more semis than any other Ulster team bar Tyrone. Interestingly back in the 00's you had Cork and Meath up there too.

Obviously for years we are used to Kerry and Dublin being the two main favourites to make it into the semis or the final but Mayo in the last 10 years have joined them with Galway nowhere to be seen for years until recently.
The Ulster champions have a tendency to put in great performances in Ulster and provide good early form but then often disappoint in Croker. Donegal and Monaghan have been doing this for years although Derry reached their first semi last year since 2004, although they did easily hammer Clare.

Galway lost to the Super Dubs in 2018 whilst Monaghan made their first semifinal since the All Ireland series started but still struggle to win in HQ.

In my eyes it's only when you really beat one of the top 3 or 4 teams from the year before that you be truly considered an AI contender. Tyrone hadn't beaten Kerry, Dublin or Mayo from 2008 until 2021 although they did get to a few semis.

I'm a little surprised how many people are talking up this Galway team who got to the final last year but hadn't beaten any of so called big guns on the way. They beat the Rossies in the Connacht final and then struggled to beat Armagh. They did beat Derry quite well in the end in a very defensive match with both teams seemingly at similar levels during the league.

Galway put up a good performance in the final but in my eyes they are being slightly over stated as one of this years strong favourites just on last years showing. I suppose they have improved a bit during the league and with Walsh and Comer in their team they are always in with a good shout. In my eyes Walsh didn't really stand out all year except in the final whilst Comer was the opposite.
I'm sure Mayo are loving such talk and would relish meeting them later in the year.

Team       Semifinal appearances in last 10 years
Dublin   10
Kerry     8
Mayo      8
Tyrone   6
Galway   2
Tipp       2
Donegal  1
Derry      1
Monaghan1
Cavan      1
Also interesting about the last 10 years is that the same 4 teams- Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone and Mayo - appeared  in the semi finals on 5 occasions -2013,2015, 2017, 2019 and 2021
Lookit

An Fhairche Abu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1183
    • View Profile
Re: Sam Maguire permutations
« Reply #467 on: May 25, 2023, 09:25:21 PM »
I was looking back over the last 20 years at what teams were making the AI semifinals the most and have listed below, the last 10 years semi finalists. No surprise with the top 3 anyway although amazing Tipp have made more semis than any other Ulster team bar Tyrone. Interestingly back in the 00's you had Cork and Meath up there too.

Obviously for years we are used to Kerry and Dublin being the two main favourites to make it into the semis or the final but Mayo in the last 10 years have joined them with Galway nowhere to be seen for years until recently.
The Ulster champions have a tendency to put in great performances in Ulster and provide good early form but then often disappoint in Croker. Donegal and Monaghan have been doing this for years although Derry reached their first semi last year since 2004, although they did easily hammer Clare.

Galway lost to the Super Dubs in 2018 whilst Monaghan made their first semifinal since the All Ireland series started but still struggle to win in HQ.

In my eyes it's only when you really beat one of the top 3 or 4 teams from the year before that you be truly considered an AI contender
. Tyrone hadn't beaten Kerry, Dublin or Mayo from 2008 until 2021 although they did get to a few semis.

I'm a little surprised how many people are talking up this Galway team who got to the final last year but hadn't beaten any of so called big guns on the way. They beat the Rossies in the Connacht final and then struggled to beat Armagh. They did beat Derry quite well in the end in a very defensive match with both teams seemingly at similar levels during the league.

Galway put up a good performance in the final but in my eyes they are being slightly over stated as one of this years strong favourites just on last years showing. I suppose they have improved a bit during the league and with Walsh and Comer in their team they are always in with a good shout. In my eyes Walsh didn't really stand out all year except in the final whilst Comer was the opposite.
I'm sure Mayo are loving such talk and would relish meeting them later in the year.

Team       Semifinal appearances in last 10 years
Dublin   10
Kerry     8
Mayo      8
Tyrone   6
Galway   2
Tipp       2
Donegal  1
Derry      1
Monaghan1
Cavan      1


Don't necessarily disagree with the overall thesis that Galway are being overrated at the minute and have a lot to prove, but is the win over Mayo in Connacht first round last year worth nothing given they were in the final the previous year? Are we back to wins bring irrelevant unless they are at the knockout stage, I know that's what some Mayo fans have said. Or do you mean you have to beat Kerry or Dublin. What would constitute beating a big gun this year? Genuine question by the way, take no offence at anything negative said there about Galway.

Point of order on Galway Derry though, played them twice and dismantled them both times.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2023, 09:27:25 PM by An Fhairche Abu »

UpMeeyo

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 46
    • View Profile
Re: Sam Maguire permutations
« Reply #468 on: May 25, 2023, 11:41:06 PM »
I was looking back over the last 20 years at what teams were making the AI semifinals the most and have listed below, the last 10 years semi finalists. No surprise with the top 3 anyway although amazing Tipp have made more semis than any other Ulster team bar Tyrone. Interestingly back in the 00's you had Cork and Meath up there too.

Obviously for years we are used to Kerry and Dublin being the two main favourites to make it into the semis or the final but Mayo in the last 10 years have joined them with Galway nowhere to be seen for years until recently.
The Ulster champions have a tendency to put in great performances in Ulster and provide good early form but then often disappoint in Croker. Donegal and Monaghan have been doing this for years although Derry reached their first semi last year since 2004, although they did easily hammer Clare.

Galway lost to the Super Dubs in 2018 whilst Monaghan made their first semifinal since the All Ireland series started but still struggle to win in HQ.

In my eyes it's only when you really beat one of the top 3 or 4 teams from the year before that you be truly considered an AI contender
. Tyrone hadn't beaten Kerry, Dublin or Mayo from 2008 until 2021 although they did get to a few semis.

I'm a little surprised how many people are talking up this Galway team who got to the final last year but hadn't beaten any of so called big guns on the way. They beat the Rossies in the Connacht final and then struggled to beat Armagh. They did beat Derry quite well in the end in a very defensive match with both teams seemingly at similar levels during the league.

Galway put up a good performance in the final but in my eyes they are being slightly over stated as one of this years strong favourites just on last years showing. I suppose they have improved a bit during the league and with Walsh and Comer in their team they are always in with a good shout. In my eyes Walsh didn't really stand out all year except in the final whilst Comer was the opposite.
I'm sure Mayo are loving such talk and would relish meeting them later in the year.

Team       Semifinal appearances in last 10 years
Dublin   10
Kerry     8
Mayo      8
Tyrone   6
Galway   2
Tipp       2
Donegal  1
Derry      1
Monaghan1
Cavan      1


Don't necessarily disagree with the overall thesis that Galway are being overrated at the minute and have a lot to prove, but is the win over Mayo in Connacht first round last year worth nothing given they were in the final the previous year? Are we back to wins bring irrelevant unless they are at the knockout stage, I know that's what some Mayo fans have said. Or do you mean you have to beat Kerry or Dublin. What would constitute beating a big gun this year? Genuine question by the way, take no offence at anything negative said there about Galway.

Point of order on Galway Derry though, played them twice and dismantled them both times.

I think putting it up to Kerry in the final last year probably gives Galway more clout than beating Mayo, because it works different when playing your neighbour and rival (see Mayo v Roscommon this year). saying that, beating Mayo last year + good showing in AIF + performances to date from Galway this year + recognisably decent players in every position is what maybe accelerates them in the rankings vs past performance as expected above. That and the lack of an obvious clear favourite.

greatpoint

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 363
    • View Profile
Re: Sam Maguire permutations
« Reply #469 on: May 26, 2023, 04:02:16 PM »
I was looking back over the last 20 years at what teams were making the AI semifinals the most and have listed below, the last 10 years semi finalists. No surprise with the top 3 anyway although amazing Tipp have made more semis than any other Ulster team bar Tyrone. Interestingly back in the 00's you had Cork and Meath up there too.

Obviously for years we are used to Kerry and Dublin being the two main favourites to make it into the semis or the final but Mayo in the last 10 years have joined them with Galway nowhere to be seen for years until recently.
The Ulster champions have a tendency to put in great performances in Ulster and provide good early form but then often disappoint in Croker. Donegal and Monaghan have been doing this for years although Derry reached their first semi last year since 2004, although they did easily hammer Clare.

Galway lost to the Super Dubs in 2018 whilst Monaghan made their first semifinal since the All Ireland series started but still struggle to win in HQ.

In my eyes it's only when you really beat one of the top 3 or 4 teams from the year before that you be truly considered an AI contender. Tyrone hadn't beaten Kerry, Dublin or Mayo from 2008 until 2021 although they did get to a few semis.

I'm a little surprised how many people are talking up this Galway team who got to the final last year but hadn't beaten any of so called big guns on the way. They beat the Rossies in the Connacht final and then struggled to beat Armagh. They did beat Derry quite well in the end in a very defensive match with both teams seemingly at similar levels during the league.

Galway put up a good performance in the final but in my eyes they are being slightly over stated as one of this years strong favourites just on last years showing. I suppose they have improved a bit during the league and with Walsh and Comer in their team they are always in with a good shout. In my eyes Walsh didn't really stand out all year except in the final whilst Comer was the opposite.
I'm sure Mayo are loving such talk and would relish meeting them later in the year.

Team       Semifinal appearances in last 10 years
Dublin   10
Kerry     8
Mayo      8
Tyrone   6
Galway   2
Tipp       2
Donegal  1
Derry      1
Monaghan1
Cavan      1

Tyrone are an interesting country to look at from that list. They played Ulster teams in the QFs the years they progressed and the one year they played a non Ulster team (Mayo 2016), they lost. 

2013 Monaghan
2015 Monaghan
2017 Armagh
2018 Donegal

In 2019 they shared a Super 8 group with Dublin, Roscommon, Cork and obviously progressed without any issue.

I would say beating Donegal in Ballybofey in 2018 is by far the pick of those victories with the rest being fairly reasonable draws when you look at who they could have gotten.

If you compare them with the other dominant Ulster team of that era, Donegal, itís pretty interesting. Their QF opponents in those year were:

2013 Mayo
2015 Mayo
2016 Dublin
2018 Tyrone
2019 Mayo

Quite a stark comparison.

Fuzzman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4631
  • Aughabrack (Tyrone Not Cork)
    • View Profile
Re: Sam Maguire permutations
« Reply #470 on: May 26, 2023, 05:13:51 PM »
Very good point and one I wasn't aware of.
A good draw in the quarters certainly makes life a lot easier and no wonder Monaghan are fed up seeing the sight of Tyrone.
They've had a few good results against us in Ulster but just seems they can't get across the line in Croker.

I don't think it was the fact that it was Ulster teams though that we were beating and non Ulster Donegal were losing to.
I think it was Donegal kept meeting one of the big 3 whereas we mainly avoided them til the semi or final.
Likewise Galway got to the final last year avoiding Dublin, Kerry and Mayo.

Yes that 2018 away win to Donegal in the super 8s was probably our best performance in the last 10 years. Well maybe after beating Kerry in 2021.




imtommygunn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15914
    • View Profile
Re: Sam Maguire permutations
« Reply #471 on: May 26, 2023, 05:27:00 PM »
I always thought you timing your peak better was the reason why Monaghan or Donegal didnít do better in the latter stages.

seafoid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31366
    • View Profile
Re: Sam Maguire permutations
« Reply #472 on: May 26, 2023, 05:35:18 PM »
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/03/23/donegal-gaa-have-questions-to-answer-after-a-disastrous-few-months/Brian McEniff, manager of the countyís first All-Ireland winners in 1992, is hopeful things can get back on track but concedes that the blow to development is a major concern.

ďThere is an advantage that some of the counties on the western seaboard have. We have a population of nearly 170,000, which gives us a distinct advantage over, say, the Monaghans."

Monaghan's Aughrim is population size. Fermanagh has a similar problem. Antrim has no excuse.
Lookit

Rossfan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19822
  • Ballaghaderreen CO ROSCOMMON
    • View Profile
    • Roscommon County Board official website
Re: Sam Maguire permutations
« Reply #473 on: May 27, 2023, 09:48:17 PM »
3 close dramatic games today and the Joe McDonagh Final was something else too.
Gaelic games...what a gem we have in this Country!!
Remember we're a noble race from a land where Kings once trod.

clarshack

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4291
    • View Profile
Re: Sam Maguire permutations
« Reply #474 on: May 27, 2023, 10:26:46 PM »
Itís embarrassing in this day and age watching an inter county game with grass banks behind the goals.

armaghniac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16883
    • View Profile
Re: Sam Maguire permutations
« Reply #475 on: May 27, 2023, 10:45:15 PM »
Itís embarrassing in this day and age watching an inter county game with grass banks behind the goals.

Well it is less embarrassing than having to go to a stadium with a grass bank behind the goals because you do not have one.
The Pairc Tailteann redevelopment did not proceed owing to construction inflation, but they got some extra money I think before the selling of passports was abolished.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

GalwayBayBoy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8588
  • No show like a Joe show!
    • View Profile
Re: Sam Maguire permutations
« Reply #476 on: May 28, 2023, 01:44:41 AM »
I don't think it was the fact that it was Ulster teams though that we were beating and non Ulster Donegal were losing to.
I think it was Donegal kept meeting one of the big 3 whereas we mainly avoided them til the semi or final.
Likewise Galway got to the final last year avoiding Dublin, Kerry and Mayo.

Galway beat Mayo last year. I feel like I'm on crazy pills how often this is overlooked to suit some spurious point.

seafoid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31366
    • View Profile
Re: Sam Maguire permutations
« Reply #477 on: May 28, 2023, 07:27:07 AM »
Dublin and Kerry were on the other side of the draw so they could only meet one of them in the final.Which they did. They weren't good enough last year.
Lookit

seafoid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31366
    • View Profile
Re: Sam Maguire permutations
« Reply #478 on: May 28, 2023, 10:51:35 AM »
What the games to date show is the imbalance between the provinces this year and the lack of definitiveness of the provincial results.
 It makes the championship more interesting.
Lookit

onefineday

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 249
    • View Profile
Re: Sam Maguire permutations
« Reply #479 on: May 29, 2023, 12:02:09 AM »
Most notable point from that list of semi-finalists is the absence of Cork who had contested all Ireland semis every year from 2005 to 2010. Worrying for the GAA imo, especially when considering that the hurlers haven't won Liam since 2005 and have only had one decent stab at it since then too.