All Ireland Gaelic Football Final 2014 Kerry v Donegal

[J70]

Could he become Football's Cody going on for 15 years? 

No chance. Hurling's AI title is the preserve of about 5 or 6 counties per year at a push. Kilkenny have no football to compete with so its not even comparable. Prior to McGuinness taking over Donegal they were ranked about 20th I think but have now won 3 Ulster titles in 4 years and are on the verge of their 2nd AI title in the same period. They have over achieved massively in doing this but could just as easily slip down to the lower reaches of the top 20. The depth of competition in football is much greater than hurling.

An over achieving team will win one title, not be one of the leading teams over a span of four years.

If they are not an over achieving side then are you of the opinion that they have only achieved what their ability suggested that they should have done? I would disagree strongly with that, the Donegal collective is much greater than the sum of the individual talent. The single biggest factor is the manager. Without him it is debatable if they would have won an Ulster title, now they are on the verge of their second AI title.

Did the Dubs of the 70s over achieve? What if Heffernan hadn't come along?

How about Meath under Boylan? Armagh under Kernan?

The only thing that is clear is that these Donegal players underachieved prior to McGuinness, through a combination of POOR management (no disrespect to them, but we were a shambles under John Joe and often under McIver) and their infamous lack of application.

[seafoid]

It's becoming clear that Donegal are being bankrolled by a few Abramovich like characters in the background. Another 5 day camp


Do the donegal players work for a living or are they subsidised by these wealthy backers ?

Ireland has very few Abramovich style people who bought state assets on the cheap in murky circumstances. Dinny O Brien would
qualify but who else ? 

[rodney trotter]

I don't think they have overachieved massively tbh, they had a bad year before he took over shipping a heavy defeat to Armagh in the Qualifiers. But they were only a kick of a ball from winning the U21 final against Dublin that year, Murphys penalty coming back off the cross bar.

Karl Lacey had 2 All Stars before McGuinness took over, Gallagher was always a top midfielder a few others weren't consisent like McFadden and Kavanagh.
They had won the Division 1 League title in 2007 so it wasn't like it was all new to them challenging the top teams.

They had some good players alright but I don't think anyone could have thought they would achieve what they have done. He managed to change a whole culture and mindset of a county within the space of 12 months. U-21 success is no guarantee of senior success but it was McGuinness who managed that side as well, which was an early indication what he was capable of.

Yeah he done a great job changing the whole mindset into beliving in the system, but thats what they lacked for a long time as they always had talented players. Donegal had a reputation as party boys before McGuinness took over.

Some of the stories Cassidy said in the infamous book about the drink Culture would never happen under McGuinness.

[yellowcard]

Could he become Football's Cody going on for 15 years? 

No chance. Hurling's AI title is the preserve of about 5 or 6 counties per year at a push. Kilkenny have no football to compete with so its not even comparable. Prior to McGuinness taking over Donegal they were ranked about 20th I think but have now won 3 Ulster titles in 4 years and are on the verge of their 2nd AI title in the same period. They have over achieved massively in doing this but could just as easily slip down to the lower reaches of the top 20. The depth of competition in football is much greater than hurling.

An over achieving team will win one title, not be one of the leading teams over a span of four years.

If they are not an over achieving side then are you of the opinion that they have only achieved what their ability suggested that they should have done? I would disagree strongly with that, the Donegal collective is much greater than the sum of the individual talent. The single biggest factor is the manager. Without him it is debatable if they would have won an Ulster title, now they are on the verge of their second AI title.

Did the Dubs of the 70s over achieve? What if Heffernan hadn't come along?

How about Meath under Boylan? Armagh under Kernan?

The only thing that is clear is that these Donegal players underachieved prior to McGuinness, through a combination of POOR management (no disrespect to them, but we were a shambles under John Joe and often under McIver) and their infamous lack of application.

Yes, they probably did under achieve prior to McGuinness but they have been getting close to the limits of their capabilities since then. Not many counties can say the same thing because to do so the players have to totally buy into what the manager wants and demands of them without any guarantee of success. McGuinness' greatest gift is that he convinced the players early on in his reign that great things lay in store for them if they followed him, he changed an entire counties culture overnight and the rest is history. No other manager in the country was capable of doing what he done imo.   

[Bensars]

McGuinness has become poacher turned gamekeeper. He was part of that underachieving group with their "infamous lack of application".

The current squad couldnt be regarded as underachieving. Even though some older  members may have been part of panels prior to McGuinness taking control,  it would be harsh to judge them individually, as the underachievement tag can really only be applied collectively in team sports.

As a County set up, in regards of preparation ( compared to now) , management strength of character/conviction (Kevin Cassidy expulsion) it could with the aid of hindsight been regarded as a period of under achievement.

[J70]

Could he become Football's Cody going on for 15 years? 

No chance. Hurling's AI title is the preserve of about 5 or 6 counties per year at a push. Kilkenny have no football to compete with so its not even comparable. Prior to McGuinness taking over Donegal they were ranked about 20th I think but have now won 3 Ulster titles in 4 years and are on the verge of their 2nd AI title in the same period. They have over achieved massively in doing this but could just as easily slip down to the lower reaches of the top 20. The depth of competition in football is much greater than hurling.

An over achieving team will win one title, not be one of the leading teams over a span of four years.

If they are not an over achieving side then are you of the opinion that they have only achieved what their ability suggested that they should have done? I would disagree strongly with that, the Donegal collective is much greater than the sum of the individual talent. The single biggest factor is the manager. Without him it is debatable if they would have won an Ulster title, now they are on the verge of their second AI title.

Did the Dubs of the 70s over achieve? What if Heffernan hadn't come along?

How about Meath under Boylan? Armagh under Kernan?

The only thing that is clear is that these Donegal players underachieved prior to McGuinness, through a combination of POOR management (no disrespect to them, but we were a shambles under John Joe and often under McIver) and their infamous lack of application.

Yes, they probably did under achieve prior to McGuinness but they have been getting close to the limits of their capabilities since then. Not many counties can say the same thing because to do so the players have to totally buy into what the manager wants and demands of them without any guarantee of success. McGuinness' greatest gift is that he convinced the players early on in his reign that great things lay in store for them if they followed him, he changed an entire counties culture overnight and the rest is history. No other manager in the country was capable of doing what he done imo.

You say they are "getting close to the limits of their capabilities" as if it is self evident. So what IS the evidence?

There seems to be a popular consensus that you could parachute McGuinness into ANY county and provincial titles and AI final appearances would almost inevitably follow. This consensus doesn't appear to be built on anything  beyond lazy hype,  however.

[J70]

McGuinness has become poacher turned gamekeeper. He was part of that underachieving group with their "infamous lack of application".

The current squad couldnt be regarded as underachieving. Even though some older  members may have been part of panels prior to McGuinness taking control,  it would be harsh to judge them individually, as the underachievement tag can really only be applied collectively in team sports.

As a County set up, in regards of preparation ( compared to now) , management strength of character/conviction (Kevin Cassidy expulsion) it could with the aid of hindsight been regarded as a period of under achievement.

And the "over achievement" hypothesis?

[Fuzzman]

I Indiana fight back campaign is still full throttle. Let it go man. Ye have the makings of a decent team there with a few more transfers and sure Kieran McKeever will be there next year I'd say.

You wont be laughing Indiana when Donegal join with the Ulster council to build a 100K multipurpose stadium in casement park and all future All Ireland finals will be there.
Then ye lot might start appreciating how much of an advantage being the HOME team really means.

It will be interesting to see if the media highlight the Donegal money problem now that they were so reluctant to talk about with the Dubs.

Back to the match and when is the last time Kerry beat Donegal in the championship?
How many times have Kerry lost to an Ulster team in the AI final now?

[AZOffaly]

So yer all ulster now is it? Ye are gas men for vicarious success.

[Bensars]

McGuinness has become poacher turned gamekeeper. He was part of that underachieving group with their "infamous lack of application".

The current squad couldnt be regarded as underachieving. Even though some older  members may have been part of panels prior to McGuinness taking control,  it would be harsh to judge them individually, as the underachievement tag can really only be applied collectively in team sports.

As a County set up, in regards of preparation ( compared to now) , management strength of character/conviction (Kevin Cassidy expulsion) it could with the aid of hindsight been regarded as a period of under achievement.

And the "over achievement" hypothesis?

Dont think they have over achieved. That would be hughly disrespectful to some very good footballers( in so much that their success is solely down to the management). If it was the case, Mc Guinness would be able to the same with a much weaker panel. ( which i would doubt) .Its doesnt matter a rats arse how talented individual players are, they have to work as a unit.

Donegal are the sum of quite a few talented parts, who collectively put a huge amount of preparation in.

[yellowcard]

Could he become Football's Cody going on for 15 years? 

No chance. Hurling's AI title is the preserve of about 5 or 6 counties per year at a push. Kilkenny have no football to compete with so its not even comparable. Prior to McGuinness taking over Donegal they were ranked about 20th I think but have now won 3 Ulster titles in 4 years and are on the verge of their 2nd AI title in the same period. They have over achieved massively in doing this but could just as easily slip down to the lower reaches of the top 20. The depth of competition in football is much greater than hurling.

An over achieving team will win one title, not be one of the leading teams over a span of four years.

If they are not an over achieving side then are you of the opinion that they have only achieved what their ability suggested that they should have done? I would disagree strongly with that, the Donegal collective is much greater than the sum of the individual talent. The single biggest factor is the manager. Without him it is debatable if they would have won an Ulster title, now they are on the verge of their second AI title.

Did the Dubs of the 70s over achieve? What if Heffernan hadn't come along?

How about Meath under Boylan? Armagh under Kernan?

The only thing that is clear is that these Donegal players underachieved prior to McGuinness, through a combination of POOR management (no disrespect to them, but we were a shambles under John Joe and often under McIver) and their infamous lack of application.

Yes, they probably did under achieve prior to McGuinness but they have been getting close to the limits of their capabilities since then. Not many counties can say the same thing because to do so the players have to totally buy into what the manager wants and demands of them without any guarantee of success. McGuinness' greatest gift is that he convinced the players early on in his reign that great things lay in store for them if they followed him, he changed an entire counties culture overnight and the rest is history. No other manager in the country was capable of doing what he done imo.

You say they are "getting close to the limits of their capabilities" as if it is self evident. So what IS the evidence?

There seems to be a popular consensus that you could parachute McGuinness into ANY county and provincial titles and AI final appearances would almost inevitably follow. This consensus doesn't appear to be built on anything  beyond lazy hype,  however.

What I should have added is that it is 'getting close to the limits of their capabilities as amateur sportsmen' because the only possible way to squeeze a large degree of improvement out of themselves would be to become full time profesisonals.  Where is the evidence? Its in the week long warm weather training camp in Portugal before the championship. Its in the countless hours of video analysis undertaken and prepared on the upcoming opponent and the detailed specific gameplan devised to counteract their strengths and attack their weaknesses. Its in the size of the backroom staff that each have a small but significant role in creating an environment for maximum performance for each player. Its in the weekend breaks (and sometimes 5 days) before each championship match where multiple daily sessions and meetings are held to fine tune preparations.

[J70]

Could he become Football's Cody going on for 15 years? 

No chance. Hurling's AI title is the preserve of about 5 or 6 counties per year at a push. Kilkenny have no football to compete with so its not even comparable. Prior to McGuinness taking over Donegal they were ranked about 20th I think but have now won 3 Ulster titles in 4 years and are on the verge of their 2nd AI title in the same period. They have over achieved massively in doing this but could just as easily slip down to the lower reaches of the top 20. The depth of competition in football is much greater than hurling.

An over achieving team will win one title, not be one of the leading teams over a span of four years.

If they are not an over achieving side then are you of the opinion that they have only achieved what their ability suggested that they should have done? I would disagree strongly with that, the Donegal collective is much greater than the sum of the individual talent. The single biggest factor is the manager. Without him it is debatable if they would have won an Ulster title, now they are on the verge of their second AI title.

Did the Dubs of the 70s over achieve? What if Heffernan hadn't come along?

How about Meath under Boylan? Armagh under Kernan?

The only thing that is clear is that these Donegal players underachieved prior to McGuinness, through a combination of POOR management (no disrespect to them, but we were a shambles under John Joe and often under McIver) and their infamous lack of application.

Yes, they probably did under achieve prior to McGuinness but they have been getting close to the limits of their capabilities since then. Not many counties can say the same thing because to do so the players have to totally buy into what the manager wants and demands of them without any guarantee of success. McGuinness' greatest gift is that he convinced the players early on in his reign that great things lay in store for them if they followed him, he changed an entire counties culture overnight and the rest is history. No other manager in the country was capable of doing what he done imo.

You say they are "getting close to the limits of their capabilities" as if it is self evident. So what IS the evidence?

There seems to be a popular consensus that you could parachute McGuinness into ANY county and provincial titles and AI final appearances would almost inevitably follow. This consensus doesn't appear to be built on anything  beyond lazy hype,  however.

What I should have added is that it is 'getting close to the limits of their capabilities as amateur sportsmen' because the only possible way to squeeze a large degree of improvement out of themselves would be to become full time profesisonals.  Where is the evidence? Its in the week long warm weather training camp in Portugal before the championship. Its in the countless hours of video analysis undertaken and prepared on the upcoming opponent and the detailed specific gameplan devised to counteract their strengths and attack their weaknesses. Its in the size of the backroom staff that each have a small but significant role in creating an environment for maximum performance for each player. Its in the weekend breaks (and sometimes 5 days) before each championship match where multiple daily sessions and meetings are held to fine tune preparations.

But all the top teams are doing that stuff.

Are they all over achieving?

[BluestackBoy]

McGuinness has become poacher turned gamekeeper. He was part of that underachieving group with their "infamous lack of application".

The current squad couldnt be regarded as underachieving. Even though some older  members may have been part of panels prior to McGuinness taking control,  it would be harsh to judge them individually, as the underachievement tag can really only be applied collectively in team sports.

As a County set up, in regards of preparation ( compared to now) , management strength of character/conviction (Kevin Cassidy expulsion) it could with the aid of hindsight been regarded as a period of under achievement.

And the "over achievement" hypothesis?

Dont think they have over achieved. That would be hughly disrespectful to some very good footballers( in so much that their success is solely down to the management). If it was the case, Mc Guinness would be able to the same with a much weaker panel. ( which i would doubt) .Its doesnt matter a rats arse how talented individual players are, they have to work as a unit.

Donegal are the sum of quite a few talented parts, who collectively put a huge amount of preparation in.

Agreed. The all for one & one for all ethic is paramount in McGuinness's way of thinking & you are either in or out.

With that in mind I wonder what he makes of Mark McHugh's new career in the media with the sharp suit, gelled hair & trendy beard not to mention the congratulatory tweets.

I think it could be a long road back for him under the gimlet eye of the one who never forgets!!

[Crete Boom]

Are any of ye Donegal boys ( and girls) worried that maybe you hit your big performance against the Dubs and might be a little flat for the final like happened in Ulster last year after the Tyrone match?

[Fuzzman]

So yer all ulster now is it? Ye are gas men for vicarious success.

It's called rowing in behind your neighbours and preferring Sam to come North rather than stay in Leinster or go back to Munster?

Do you want Kerry to win then AZ? I wonder why.