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Any thoughts lads?

My belief is this is a big mountain to climb, we didnt really blood new players bar Mc Verry who i believe is the real deal. we are going to be without the cross contingent for at least another month. Going to take a stab at a team,

1. N Geoughan
2. A Mallon
3. B Donaghy
4. D Mc Kenna
5. P Duffy
6. K Mc Keever
7. Finn Mo
8. J Kingham
9. Mal Mackin
10. A Duffy
11. M O Rourke
12. C Vernon
13. R Raffery
14. G Swift
15. E mc Verry

Armagh have to be targeting all of our home games for a win in order to stay up, so I'm optimistic even if I don't have a fecking clue how they are going to do it this weekend with a relatively inexperienced team and Vernon playing at FB.

Armagh will have a decent shout but without Jamie Clarke and Stevie the attack will lack potency. But Armagh players are among the most committed in the country and will give their best effort. Cork are not as good as they were in 2010 and I think Armagh will run them close. Without disrespect I expect the bookies are correct and Cork deserve to be favourites, but it shouldn't be easy for them and an upset would not be a major upset if Armagh were to do it.

You could be not far away with that team but i hope there would be a few differences.

I'd hope McEvoy would be in goals.
I'd hope vernon would be at mf with Mackin wing forward - a wing back could have a very handsome day on cv.
I'm assuming dyas is a available after the colleges stint and would be ahead of mo at wing nack.

Concerns:
McKenna shouldn't be played in the full back line - very short on pace for that job.
we have to have better options than Kingham in the middle? he's well short of county standard.
I don't think ryan rafferty is ready yet and we could well end up doing what we've done with grugan.
Aidan Forker is about the same age but i'd class him much further developed for county football than rafferty yet.

Quote from: DuffleKing on January 30, 2012, 11:25:54 AM
You could be not far away with that team but i hope there would be a few differences.

I'd hope McEvoy would be in goals.
I'd hope vernon would be at mf with Mackin wing forward - a wing back could have a very handsome day on cv.
I'm assuming dyas is a available after the colleges stint and would be ahead of mo at wing nack.

Concerns:
McKenna shouldn't be played in the full back line - very short on pace for that job.
we have to have better options than Kingham in the middle? he's well short of county standard.
I don't think ryan rafferty is ready yet and we could well end up doing what we've done with grugan.
Aidan Forker is about the same age but i'd class him much further developed for county football than rafferty yet.

I purely picked them bunch of lads based on mc kenna cup time, Kingham had a fantastic match against st marys, ok it is a college team. but he fielded a lot of ball and he is big strong lad, which will count against a big physical cork team.
i was putting vernon there so that he will have free role to filter back and be around the middle when needed
wee rafferty looked lively on all his appearances and looks very keen although he is small and light, he can still be a handful

to be honest d mc kenna does not totally excite me, he is short of pace but he can make things awkard for boys and i think he has done enough in the mc kenna cup to warrant a start

Cork have loads of injuries.   Still beat Tipp yesterday though. Kerrigan is playing well though.

Is that Kingham the big brut of a lad that came on to mark Dan Gordon against Down or am thinking of someone completely different??

Whoever that lad was he didnt look anywhere near county standard that day, as big as he was.

I think McKenna has done relatively well since coming in, although I do recognise that he is probably better further out the field.

Can't see is us getting within four points. If Carvill doesn't start, and I don't think he will, we'll need O'Rourke or Campbell to have their shooting boots on from free kicks, because our score to chance conversion rate will need to be high to give it a rattle.

Quote from: whitegoodman on January 30, 2012, 01:16:41 PM
Is that Kingham the big brut of a lad that came on to mark Dan Gordon against Down or am thinking of someone completely different??

Whoever that lad was he didnt look anywhere near county standard that day, as big as he was.

Same fella. He was much improved against St Mary's, obviously the huge caveat is the quality of the opposition. Deserves a chance to see what he is made of.

Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on January 30, 2012, 01:35:58 PM

Quote from: whitegoodman on January 30, 2012, 01:16:41 PM
Is that Kingham the big brut of a lad that came on to mark Dan Gordon against Down or am thinking of someone completely different??

Whoever that lad was he didnt look anywhere near county standard that day, as big as he was.

Same fella. He was much improved against St Mary's, obviously the huge caveat is the quality of the opposition. Deserves a chance to see what he is made of.

i agree tac,

I would expect to see something like:

1 - mcevoy
2 - mallon
3 - vernon
4 - donaghy
5 - mckenna
6 - mckeever
7 - pduffy
8 - lavery
9 - mackin
10 - aforker
11 - o'rourke or dyas
12 - aduffy
13 - campbell
14 - swift
15 - mcverry

Is mcparland ok to start? If so, he should start.

Hopefully, CV can impress at full back and some of the young lads make a good push for a championship starting place

Quote from: regal on January 30, 2012, 03:27:33 PM
I would expect to see something like:

1 - mcevoy
2 - mallon
3 - vernon
4 - donaghy
5 - mckenna
6 - mckeever
7 - pduffy
8 - lavery
9 - mackin
10 - aforker
11 - o'rourke or dyas
12 - aduffy
13 - campbell
14 - swift
15 - mcverry

Is mcparland ok to start? If so, he should start.

Hopefully, CV can impress at full back and some of the young lads make a good push for a championship starting place

i hate this idea of CV in full back, we tried it for 3 matches in the mc kenna cup and it didnt work, he is far better suited round the middle of th pitch running at players

Who are the Crossmaglen players that Armagh will be missing that would otherwise start?

Quote from: Onion Bag on January 30, 2012, 03:34:05 PM

Quote from: regal on January 30, 2012, 03:27:33 PM
I would expect to see something like:

1 - mcevoy
2 - mallon
3 - vernon
4 - donaghy
5 - mckenna
6 - mckeever
7 - pduffy
8 - lavery
9 - mackin
10 - aforker
11 - o'rourke or dyas
12 - aduffy
13 - campbell
14 - swift
15 - mcverry

Is mcparland ok to start? If so, he should start.

Hopefully, CV can impress at full back and some of the young lads make a good push for a championship starting place

i hate this idea of CV in full back, we tried it for 3 matches in the mc kenna cup and it didnt work, he is far better suited round the middle of th pitch running at players

But Charlie has been playing around MF / half forwards since 2008 and has proved too inconsistant to nail down a position. Barring a couple of stand out performances, he has been disappointing (he is not alone here). When he runs at players he generally loses possession or falls which isn't acceptable at this level. A lot of his attributes are qualities you would look for in a defender, strength, pace for example. I just think it might be worthwhile playing him in defense to see how he copes against the likes of cork & kerry.

Quote from: Keane on January 30, 2012, 04:32:31 PM
Who are the Crossmaglen players that Armagh will be missing that would otherwise start?

Paul Hearty has played most of Armagh matches in goal for the past decade while Aaron Kernan and Jamie Clarke are certain starters. Then there are another half dozen players who would be on the fringes of the team and may well be capable of forcing themselves into contention for a starting place were their intercounty seasons not consistently hampered by club duty.

TY

Quote from: regal on January 30, 2012, 05:00:35 PM

Quote from: Onion Bag on January 30, 2012, 03:34:05 PM

Quote from: regal on January 30, 2012, 03:27:33 PM
I would expect to see something like:

1 - mcevoy
2 - mallon
3 - vernon
4 - donaghy
5 - mckenna
6 - mckeever
7 - pduffy
8 - lavery
9 - mackin
10 - aforker
11 - o'rourke or dyas
12 - aduffy
13 - campbell
14 - swift
15 - mcverry

Is mcparland ok to start? If so, he should start.

Hopefully, CV can impress at full back and some of the young lads make a good push for a championship starting place

i hate this idea of CV in full back, we tried it for 3 matches in the mc kenna cup and it didnt work, he is far better suited round the middle of th pitch running at players

But Charlie has been playing around MF / half forwards since 2008 and has proved too inconsistant to nail down a position. Barring a couple of stand out performances, he has been disappointing (he is not alone here). When he runs at players he generally loses possession or falls which isn't acceptable at this level. A lot of his attributes are qualities you would look for in a defender, strength, pace for example. I just think it might be worthwhile playing him in defense to see how he copes against the likes of cork & kerry.

Like most Armagh players, Vernon didn't have an outstanding championship, but I thought he put in several very strong displays from midfield in the earlier part of last year and that, taken as a whole, 2011 could probably be considered his best to date in an Armagh jersey. Given this, and that Kieran Toner will be absent for at least the immediate future, I'd be disappointed if Vernon isn't returned to the middle fairly sharpish and allowed to build on any recent progress.

Vernon had his best spell at midfield for Armagh in the league last year and surely he is the best bet at midfield this year. He often does the hard work in winning possession but still doesn't know when to release it.

On the subject of Cross surely the question should be how many Armagh players would get into the Cross team?

Think this game is on TG4 this weekend.

I was at the McGrath Cup Final in Clonmel yesterday.  Cork won by 7 points and were always going to win, but Tipp would have been a lot nearer, but for some outstanding saves by the Cork goalkeeper, Ken O'Halloran.  He looked like a really good player and will surely push very hard for Alan Quirke's place on the Cork team.

Armagh need to win all home games to beat the drop.

Cork will probably have an experimental look about their team. Missing a few due to injury, particularly in the forwards and other fringe players are away on Sigerson duty, but Armagh will be missing their Cross' contingent so a hard game to predict what will happen, as tends to be the case in the first round of the League.

With Goulding and Sheehan out for a while, Kerrigan and Colm O'Neill (might miss this game) will be expected to carry the scoring threat in the forwards. Opportunity for Fintan Goold to stake a claim as well. Big talent, but has struggled to fulfill his potential thus far at senior level. Canty is fully-fit for the first time in a while so that is a positive.

Armagh - and other counties with their respective county champions - have been making the same mistake with crossmaglen players for some time now. Good club players don't necessarily make good county players - far from it. In recent years we've loaded up the panel with players who have done well or had a run of form for cross and invariably found them short in the long run. In my view both hanrattys, McKenna, McKeown, p kernan, s kernan, mcnamee + cunningham are good club players operating within at fantastic system at cross but that is their ceiling.

The players we consider certs from cross are exceptional club players. The first list of players probably have ironically had the county chances harmed by their club success in that they don't have the same opportunity to develop through the McKenna cup and NFL preparations as other good club players with county potential. I'm sure some of them are happy with that anyway. As we probably all already know, club players from strongest teams are being punished by the GAA calendar.

Quote from: DuffleKing on January 31, 2012, 10:00:29 AM
Armagh - and other counties with their respective county champions - have been making the same mistake with crossmaglen players for some time now. Good club players don't necessarily make good county players - far from it. In recent years we've loaded up the panel with players who have done well or had a run of form for cross and invariably found them short in the long run. In my view both hanrattys, McKenna, McKeown, p kernan, s kernan, mcnamee + cunningham are good club players operating within at fantastic system at cross but that is their ceiling.

The players we consider certs from cross are exceptional club players. The first list of players probably have ironically had the county chances harmed by their club success in that they don't have the same opportunity to develop through the McKenna cup and NFL preparations as other good club players with county potential. I'm sure some of them are happy with that anyway. As we probably all already know, club players from strongest teams are being punished by the GAA calendar.

The problem of course being that we are unable to expose these players to the rigours of county football for the majority of matches most years.

Quote from: DuffleKing on January 30, 2012, 11:25:54 AM
You could be not far away with that team but i hope there would be a few differences.

I'd hope McEvoy would be in goals.
I'd hope vernon would be at mf with Mackin wing forward - a wing back could have a very handsome day on cv.
I'm assuming dyas is a available after the colleges stint and would be ahead of mo at wing nack.

Concerns:
McKenna shouldn't be played in the full back line - very short on pace for that job.
we have to have better options than Kingham in the middle? he's well short of county standard.
I don't think ryan rafferty is ready yet and we could well end up doing what we've done with grugan.
Aidan Forker is about the same age but i'd class him much further developed for county football than rafferty yet.

What has happened to Grugan, has he simply been dropped?  And can anyone confirm the extent of Toner's absence, is he injured?

Grugan has to get an operation, and should be back in the team mid league

Toner has moved to Australia. Paddy O'Rourke has said he hopes to have him home for the Championship but he's certainly missing the NFL.

Who is this Dyas guy?

Kevin Dyas , he is from the Dromitee club,
he had a spell out in Oz along with marty clarke,

Looks like we're cleaned out at midfield.  When at one stage we had 5 or 6 midfielders all of whom were 80% fit for the job.  And at a time like this we're playing CV in FB? 

If Dyas is in Ireland he should be on the squad - a very talented footballer who under the right guidance could offer a lot to the team

Quote from: regal on January 30, 2012, 03:27:33 PM
I would expect to see something like:

1 - mcevoy
2 - mallon
3 - vernon
4 - donaghy
5 - mckenna
6 - mckeever
7 - pduffy
8 - lavery
9 - mackin
10 - aforker
11 - o'rourke or dyas
12 - aduffy
13 - campbell
14 - swift
15 - mcverry

Is mcparland ok to start? If so, he should start.

Hopefully, CV can impress at full back and some of the young lads make a good push for a championship starting place

Surely BJP will start? POR seems to really like him.

Aiden Forker really impressed me in the McKenna cup match in Newry

QuoteIf Dyas is in Ireland he should be on the squad - a very talented footballer who under the right guidance could offer a lot to the team

He is. He's been playing for UCD, at half forward, I think. Scoring anyway. 

QuoteSurely BJP will start? POR seems to really like him

I'd also expect BJP in the team. He does a job.

Quote from: DuffleKing on January 30, 2012, 11:25:54 AM
McKenna shouldn't be played in the full back line - very short on pace for that job.

Mc Kenna short on pace, don't know what games you have been attending DuffleKing.I firmly believe this will be Mc Kennas break through year... excellent defender & he can take a score

Just to let ya know dubs and cork played out a draw at the weekend in a challenge match  ;)

Quote from: BerfArmagh on January 31, 2012, 06:06:02 PM

Quote from: DuffleKing on January 30, 2012, 11:25:54 AM
McKenna shouldn't be played in the full back line - very short on pace for that job.

Mc Kenna short on pace, don't know what games you have been attending DuffleKing.I firmly believe this will be Mc Kennas break through year... excellent defender & he can take a score

berf, I'm going to have to agree with duffleking on this one but I also reckon he is short of pace

I get the feeling that Armagh will merely be hoping to avoid carnage, however if Grimley is going to bring anything to the table, more than parking the bus around the HB line is required.  If Vernon isn't played around the middle I will truely despair, probably something along the lines of:

1 - Middletown guy looked potentially VG
2 - mallon
3 - Donaghy
4 - McKenna
5 - Dyas
6 - mckeever
7 - pduffy
8 - lavery
9 - Vernon
10 - Mackin
11 - M O'rourke
12 - Anto Duffy
13 - Stefan Campbell
14 - swift
15 - mcverry

Assuming Nippy is back at it, the Monaghan game suggested he'd a bit to go, so probably BJP in there.  Stefan Campbell could be our wildcard here, potentially very very good, I wouldn't have as much faith in Mcverry tbh and Nippy along with BJP could be more realistic.  Kingham's physicality will probably mean he'll feature somewhere at some point, but again I wouldn't be fussed on him,but he deserves a chance after the Mary's game.

That's not that terrible a team - I'd agree with sentiments that Cross players wont be our saviours.  If we could get a fit Ronan Clarke, Stevie and Jamie Clarke in a FF line I'd be more a lot more excited.

Quote from: bennydorano on January 31, 2012, 08:04:19 PM
I get the feeling that Armagh will merely be hoping to avoid carnage, however if Grimley is going to bring anything to the table, more than parking the bus around the HB line is required.  If Vernon isn't played around the middle I will truely despair, probably something along the lines of:

1 - Middletown guy looked potentially VG
2 - mallon
3 - Donaghy
4 - McKenna
5 - Dyas
6 - mckeever
7 - pduffy
8 - lavery
9 - Vernon
10 - Mackin
11 - M O'rourke
12 - Anto Duffy
13 - Stefan Campbell
14 - swift
15 - mcverry

Assuming Nippy is back at it, the Monaghan game suggested he'd a bit to go, so probably BJP in there.  Stefan Campbell could be our wildcard here, potentially very very good, I wouldn't have as much faith in Mcverry tbh and Nippy along with BJP could be more realistic.  Kingham's physicality will probably mean he'll feature somewhere at some point, but again I wouldn't be fussed on him,but he deserves a chance after the Mary's game.

That's not that terrible a team - I'd agree with sentiments that Cross players wont be our saviours.  If we could get a fit Ronan Clarke, Stevie and Jamie Clarke in a FF line I'd be more a lot more excited.

What club is he from.? ::)

I don'tget why O Rourke is playing Vernon in FB, surely this is donaghys position, Charlies not much taller than Donaghy, so it can't be to mark bigger men. Charlies best position is CHB, but the where do you play mc keever, considering our options he must play mid field

When you learn to distinguish between singular & plural come back to me crossfire

Quote from: BerfArmagh on January 31, 2012, 09:39:22 PM
I don'tget why O Rourke is playing Vernon in FB, surely this is donaghys position, Charlies not much taller than Donaghy, so it can't be to mark bigger men. Charlies best position is CHB, but the where do you play mc keever, considering our options he must play mid field

I wouldn't have thought Vernon was taller than Donaghy at all. There seems to have been an effort in the last year or two at finding an alternative FB. Not the worst idea in the world considering Donaghy has looked ropey at times recently and could always be hit by injury. But I wouldn't be sure about Vernon in defence at all, let alone at CHB. He might look decent there when up against the odd division two club CHF who probably spends the majority of the game running after him, but marking top class intercounty CHFs like O'Sullivan or Brogan would be a whole different story. I'm not sure how he'd reconcile the responsibility of marking a man with his instinct to carry the ball into high risk contact.

Quote from: crossfire on January 31, 2012, 09:20:22 PM

What club is he from.? ::)

Are you incapable of following the theme of a conversation or are you simply focused on making pointless interventions?

Quote from: bennydorano on January 31, 2012, 08:04:19 PM
I get the feeling that Armagh will merely be hoping to avoid carnage, however if Grimley is going to bring anything to the table, more than parking the bus around the HB line is required.  If Vernon isn't played around the middle I will truely despair, probably something along the lines of:

1 - Middletown guy looked potentially VG
2 - mallon
3 - Donaghy
4 - McKenna
5 - Dyas
6 - mckeever
7 - pduffy
8 - lavery
9 - Vernon
10 - Mackin
11 - M O'rourke
12 - Anto Duffy
13 - Stefan Campbell
14 - swift
15 - mcverry

Assuming Nippy is back at it, the Monaghan game suggested he'd a bit to go, so probably BJP in there.  Stefan Campbell could be our wildcard here, potentially very very good, I wouldn't have as much faith in Mcverry tbh and Nippy along with BJP could be more realistic.  Kingham's physicality will probably mean he'll feature somewhere at some point, but again I wouldn't be fussed on him,but he deserves a chance after the Mary's game.

That's not that terrible a team - I'd agree with sentiments that Cross players wont be our saviours.  If we could get a fit Ronan Clarke, Stevie and Jamie Clarke in a FF line I'd be more a lot more excited.

Do not think we will see Nippy there. BJP will probably fill in somewhere. If a freetaker is a priority Carville has to have a chance.

Quote from: BerfArmagh on January 31, 2012, 06:06:02 PM

Quote from: DuffleKing on January 30, 2012, 11:25:54 AM
McKenna shouldn't be played in the full back line - very short on pace for that job.

Mc Kenna short on pace, don't know what games you have been attending DuffleKing.I firmly believe this will be Mc Kennas break through year... excellent defender & he can take a score

I dont know if its a lack of pace or not, but I dont think corner back is the best place for him.  I think he will develop into a great player, but I think that will be in the half back line not the full back one

Quote from: AFS on January 31, 2012, 10:21:50 PM

Quote from: BerfArmagh on January 31, 2012, 09:39:22 PM
I don'tget why O Rourke is playing Vernon in FB, surely this is donaghys position, Charlies not much taller than Donaghy, so it can't be to mark bigger men. Charlies best position is CHB, but the where do you play mc keever, considering our options he must play mid field

I wouldn't have thought Vernon was taller than Donaghy at all. There seems to have been an effort in the last year or two at finding an alternative FB. Not the worst idea in the world considering Donaghy has looked ropey at times recently and could always be hit by injury. But I wouldn't be sure about Vernon in defence at all, let alone at CHB. He might look decent there when up against the odd division two club CHF who probably spends the majority of the game running after him, but marking top class intercounty CHFs like O'Sullivan or Brogan would be a whole different story. I'm not sure how he'd reconcile the responsibility of marking a man with his instinct to carry the ball into high risk contact.

Yea, having come accross both lads im fairly sure donaghy would be fair bit taller than vernon, charlie wouldn't even be 6ft. As you say, they seem to be playing about with this the last 2 years, it was always toner (who can do a good job in FB) and he's now gone, but it doesn't make much sense having vernon in there.

Over all it's not a good team by div 1 standards, though as said if we had a stevie and the 2 clarkes up front i would fancy us to get to the all-ireland final, as crazy as that might sound. That's how great them 3 are, on form.

Would be a fantastic full forward line alright, when's the last time Ronan Clarke was fit?

Ronan Clarke won't play again for the county at anything close to the required level so I reckon people should simply forget about him as an option.  Carville will play on Sunday.  The result isn't necessarily the important thing as I think Armagh will get relegated come what may but the lay out of the team and the attitude will be key.  Think beyond the game and see the only real chance of silverware this year, the Anglo Celt, and the management should be building towards this.  I would push McKeever into the FB line and Donaghy out as Donaghy is a better footballer and McKeever a better marker. 

Quote from: Orchardman on February 01, 2012, 05:54:52 PM

Quote from: AFS on January 31, 2012, 10:21:50 PM

Quote from: BerfArmagh on January 31, 2012, 09:39:22 PM
I don'tget why O Rourke is playing Vernon in FB, surely this is donaghys position, Charlies not much taller than Donaghy, so it can't be to mark bigger men. Charlies best position is CHB, but the where do you play mc keever, considering our options he must play mid field

I wouldn't have thought Vernon was taller than Donaghy at all. There seems to have been an effort in the last year or two at finding an alternative FB. Not the worst idea in the world considering Donaghy has looked ropey at times recently and could always be hit by injury. But I wouldn't be sure about Vernon in defence at all, let alone at CHB. He might look decent there when up against the odd division two club CHF who probably spends the majority of the game running after him, but marking top class intercounty CHFs like O'Sullivan or Brogan would be a whole different story. I'm not sure how he'd reconcile the responsibility of marking a man with his instinct to carry the ball into high risk contact.

Yea, having come accross both lads im fairly sure donaghy would be fair bit taller than vernon, charlie wouldn't even be 6ft. As you say, they seem to be playing about with this the last 2 years, it was always toner (who can do a good job in FB) and he's now gone, but it doesn't make much sense having vernon in there.

Over all it's not a good team by div 1 standards, though as said if we had a stevie and the 2 clarkes up front i would fancy us to get to the all-ireland final, as crazy as that might sound. That's how great them 3 are, on form.

Crazy alright. A good forward line will only get you so far, another Ulster title would keep most in Armagh happy.

listen, i wouldnt be putting any money on us getting to the final, just meant if the 3 lads were flying they would be in with a big chance. (anyway, i agree with crossbar that we won't see ronan clarke, unfortunately for him)

But regardless of how bad we are, we hammered donegal 2 years ago, who should have been in the final last year if they had of kept it together. So a bit of organisation would go a long way. Besides, I would rather play in an all ireland semi this year through the back door rather than win another ulster and get beat in quarter final like 2008. Despite falling down the ranks, i'm not at the stage of getting excited about ulster titles again, maybe in another few years.

Realistically though, i just hope we get to the 1/4 wkend in august either way.

Armagh team:

1. Niall Geoghan
2. Andy Mallon
3. Brendan Donaghy
4. Declan McKenna
5. Paul Duffy
6. Ciaran McKeever
7. Finnian Moriarty
8. Charlie Vernon
9. John Kingham
10. Colm Watters
11. Kevin Dyas
12. Anto Duffy
13. Paul Carville
14. Malachy Mackin
15. Eugene McVerry

16. Philip McEvoy
17. Aidan Forker
18. David Lavery
19. Mark Shields
20. Billy Joe Padden
21. Brian Mallon
22. James Lavery
23. Ryan Rafferty
24. Stefan Campbell
25. Michael Stevenson
26. Caolan Rafferty


Cork team:

Ken O' Halloran
Ray Carey
Michael Shields
Eoin Cadogan
Noel O'Leary
Graham Canty
Paudie Kissane
Alan O Connor
Pearse O Neill
Fintan Goold
Patrick Kelly
Conor O'Driscoll
Colm O' Neill
Donncha O'Connor
Paul Kerrigan

Only one winner looking at those line ups. Should be a handy two points for ourselves.

The Armagh forward division has an unfamiliar look about it. Will Dyas stay in the HF or roam back, I wonder?
What's the story with Swift, not yet fit?

Word is Nippy's left the panel.

An interesting line up. Glad to see wee PC starting, his late father would be so proud of him. A small full forward line, Mackin excepted, against a physically imposing Cork back line could work to Armagh's advantage in terms of drawing frees, which McVerry and Carvill are adept at taking.

Pacy, mobile inside forwards certainly have the potential to be Cork's achilles heel if they get decent ball.

Weak half back line for Armagh, very open with Moriarity (will give away free after free) and Duffy (loose marking) on the wings. Can't see them being able to deal very well with Cork running at them.

Armagh will line out with Dyas pulling back in front of the CHB position allowing McKeever to be a "sweeper" (insert bluffer) in front of Donaghy.  Mackin will pull out to the CHF position and act as a third midfielder.  I believe that barring something unusual Armagh will be beaten by 5-7 points.

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 03, 2012, 03:00:20 PM
Armagh will line out with Dyas pulling back in front of the CHB position allowing McKeever to be a "sweeper" (insert bluffer) in front of Donaghy. Mackin will pull out to the CHF position and act as a third midfielder.  I believe that barring something unusual Armagh will be beaten by 5-7 points.

Would be surprised if that happened. Anto Duffy will already be out there as a third midfielder, and if Mackin was withdrawn from the FF line it would leave very little experience or physical presence in there.

Quote from: AFS on February 03, 2012, 07:21:55 PM

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 03, 2012, 03:00:20 PM
Armagh will line out with Dyas pulling back in front of the CHB position allowing McKeever to be a "sweeper" (insert bluffer) in front of Donaghy. Mackin will pull out to the CHF position and act as a third midfielder.  I believe that barring something unusual Armagh will be beaten by 5-7 points.

Would be surprised if that happened. Anto Duffy will already be out there as a third midfielder, and if Mackin was withdrawn from the FF line it would leave very little experience or physical presence in there.

Just because it defies logic doesn't mean it won't happen.  I believe Sundays team will be laid out not to lose as opposed to going out to win and that is why I feel that this will happen.  I hope to be proved wrong of course.

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 03, 2012, 07:56:49 PM
I believe Sundays team will be laid out not to lose as opposed to going out to win and that is why I feel that this will happen.  I hope to be proved wrong of course.

???

Good to see Vernon moved back to midfield.

Some very negative vibs from the Armagh supporters on here.  Yes yas are missing a few but so are Cork.  Being at home is a big benefit and you would like to think Armagh will go out and give it a go.

Dont think they will win but definitely think Armagh will get within 5 points of Cork.  First game is also a great time to play them, maybe catch them on the hop.

Positive thinking and all that.

Quote from: whitegoodman on February 03, 2012, 10:13:07 PM
Some very negative vibs from the Armagh supporters on here.  Yes yas are missing a few but so are Cork.  Being at home is a big benefit and you would like to think Armagh will go out and give it a go.

Dont think they will win but definitely think Armagh will get within 5 points of Cork.  First game is also a great time to play them, maybe catch them on the hop.

Positive thinking and all that.

Cork look like they're missing three or four boys from a team contending for All Irelands. We're missing twice as many from a team contending for f**k all. Not really the same thing. And the Athletic Grounds has hardly been a fortress for us since it reopened.

Negative thinking and all that.

Can someone please tell me the handicap betting on this game. Cork seem to have to much for Armagh at the minute. 
Armagh are blooding some new players and best of luck to them, but i think Cork's experience and well drilled forward line could have a bit of a field day unless Armagh park the bus, which i hope they dont.

-3 is still available but you have to pay extra juice (i.e. 5/6 instead of 10/11) which is a big swing from when I took it early yesterday at 11/10.

Value-wise the handicap looks pretty much gone, I'd recommend taking the 2/5 on Cork straight up with Victor Chandler or leaving it alone entirely at this stage.

What would happen if they didn't park the bus a12?

So the chance is gone to make a few bob on Cork, any other game that would make me a few pound?  If Armagh dont part the bus it could be a long night for the mallon and Co in the full back line

QuoteIf Armagh dont part the bus it could be a long night for the mallon and Co in the full back line

I'm sure we'll deploy a strong defence, perhaps taking our cue from our stalwart performance against Derry in Clones last year.

Perhaps we should have scantily clad dancing girls behind the goal Cork are shooting into. These ladies might suffer a bit in the climatic conditions, but their sacrifice might keep the damage down.
   

Quote from: armaghranger12 on February 04, 2012, 12:12:53 PM
So the chance is gone to make a few bob on Cork, any other game that would make me a few pound?  If Armagh dont part the bus it could be a long night for the mallon and Co in the full back line

I'm still going through today's games, I'll try get back to you later.

Can someone tell me if the donegal and down teams have been named for the game tonight or is the donegal management gonna surprise us by naming 13defenders on the starting 15?

QuoteSome very negative vibs from the Armagh supporters on here.  Yes yas are missing a few but so are Cork. Being at home is a big benefit and you would like to think Armagh will go out and give it a go.

Just as with Healy Park for Tyrone I don't ever recall the Athletic Grounds exactly being a fortress for Armagh!

Quote from: under the bar on February 04, 2012, 02:05:32 PM

QuoteSome very negative vibs from the Armagh supporters on here.  Yes yas are missing a few but so are Cork. Being at home is a big benefit and you would like to think Armagh will go out and give it a go.

Just as with Healy Park for Tyrone I don't ever recall the Athletic Grounds exactly being a fortress for Armagh!

Your recollection is the difficulty here then.

Did both ur league victories last year not come at home?

Did u not beat ur nearest and dearest in the championship at home back in May?

All be it Monaghan, Galway and Down may not be at the same level as Cork but its not is if its a graveyard for Armagh.

Travelling 3 or 4 hours down tonight or in the morning is a disadvantage for any amateur side.  Playing at home has to been seen as an advantage, it wont be enough imo but it I dont see it being the hiding that everyone on here thinks it will be.

Quote from: whitegoodman on February 04, 2012, 02:41:06 PM
Did both ur league victories last year not come at home?

Did u not beat ur nearest and dearest in the championship at home back in May?

All be it Monaghan, Galway and Down may not be at the same level as Cork but its not is if its a graveyard for Armagh.

Travelling 3 or 4 hours down tonight or in the morning is a disadvantage for any amateur side.  Playing at home has to been seen as an advantage, it wont be enough imo but it I dont see it being the hiding that everyone on here thinks it will be.

Home advantage is an advantage but it dosent improve a team that much. Armagh will be lucky not to receive a hammering.

A point in an entire half of play. Lumping the ball in like it was the bloody 50s. Good players playing like they've never seen a ball before. This is beyond pathetic. Doyle making a balls of things isn't helping either. Cork are bloody terrible too. If we could play with a smidgeon of conviction we'd be tearing them apart.

How is Anto Duffy still on the pitch?

Good second half for Armagh (the spare man notwithstanding), after an abysmal first, and exciting finish. Good result.

The armagh team must have been looking at this thread before the match as they looked like a team already beat in the first half.  It took the tactical and motivational genius POR to sort it out at half time ;)

In all seriousness some of the subs did make a decent impact and it was a fighting performance in the 2nd half.  Would anticipate thats the end of the kingham experiment!!!!

The O'Rourke/Grimley partnership is working well. Paddy manages the team for the first half and Paul for the second half.

 :D

That was a result that most Armagh fans did not expect. I for one accepted defeat at the end of the first half. But then Armagh powered there way back. Some say it was due to the referee giving Armagh soft frees, I wont comment because I did not see the match. But Armagh forwards are small and that would have been evident especially against a huge team such as Cork.

From an Armagh perspective, the next year was looking very bad but the players showed their worth in the second half. Along with the bad refereeing, Armagh gifted Cork with a goal. Armagh are only going to get better but expectations are low. We still have a number of key players to return such as the Cross players and Stevie to return. It was the opening game and I think we got Cork at the best possibly time.

Quote from: Etienne Lantier on February 05, 2012, 03:50:38 PM
How is Anto Duffy still on the pitch?

im glad he was left on.  thought anto, forker, the bigger of the two raffertys (Caolan?) and McVerry all had very good second halfs.  A bit more composure by McVerry could have won us the game.  Duffy and Rafferty showed great pace when running with the ball.  Very pleased with the performance.  Though Vernon was very good (apart from when trying to pass, loses a serious amount of attacking opportunities with wayward hand passing)

Like most i wasn't expecting to pick up any points from this game but was hoping to see a battling display. Up until the row, well into the 1st half, it wasn't looking good at all though. That 2nd half display was like watching the Armagh of old, fighting for every ball, tackling like demons and playing with obvious pride in the jersey. The Grimley factor? Without a doubt in my opinion.

Out of the new lads, McVerry, Anto Duffy,, Campbell, Forker, McKenna and C. Rafferty look like they could make it at this level. A serious amount of positives to take out of this display today. The future is not as bleak as many claim.

Mal Mackin was immense when moved out the field. McKeever, Donaghy and Andy Mallon enhanced their reputations too. If we continue to put in gutsy displays like this we will stay up.

ARD MHACHA ABU

The result was important but I think people need a bit of perspective.  In the first 35 minutes Armagh got 1 score.  they didn't score from play until, what 15 minutes into the second half.  SOme of the frees for scores at the start of the second half were dubious to say the least and Cork struggled badly once Kerrigan was sent off (wrongly in my book).  McVerry, Anto Duffy, young McKenna and Rafferty did their chances a world of good.  Andy Mallon was excellent.  Mackin did well in running at the defence but still has very poor decision making skills and gives away a lot of ball when he has to think about it, Vernon the same.  The difference in the second half seemed to be that Armagh took the game to the Cork lads and they reaped rewards as a result.  In the first half there were too many times that they sat back and allowed Cork to play football.  I don't know if it was tactical or a small bit of lack of belief but hopefully players and management learn a lesson from it. 

BTW, McKeever lucky to stay on for the elbow to the face which was more of a red card than Kerrigan and Donaghy lucky he didn't pick up a secodn yellow for persistent pulling.

Great comeback. Forker, B Mallon did well when brought on. McKeever, brilliant. Vernon, very good too. Someone order a taxi for Kingham though. Thon boy's a dose!

That Cork team are no big shakes. Canty and Pearse O'Neill were nowhere to be seen. This point could be priceless come April.

didn't expect anything from this game so fair play to the lads. My view is helped by the fact i only watched the 2nd half, as 1 point in the first half is pure muck. In fairness we had an extra man a long time but the thing that impressed me most was the tackling, easy to see the grimley 'pressure cookers' are back at training. Lost count of times in 2nd half where vernon, mackin and others hit the cork men, diving in for ball, and cork struggling to work it out of their half. Plenty of pace from some of the new lads too which is good to see, especially anto duffy. Need a lot more to stay in div 1 but decent start

In reply to the not scoring enough from play I always maintain that it is nearly always down to opposition fouling when a score is inevitable. Take the positives from it, learn from the mistakes & move on, dwelling on negatives seems to be our default position. As Mal Mackin alluded to after the game I thought the difference (in 2nd half &) from previous seasons was that we defended high up the field, rather than inviting trouble in our half.

Well done Armagh an unexpected point, plenty of fight & positives. Thought Mackin, mckeever, CV & Mcverry were best.

Quote from: bennydorano on February 05, 2012, 06:08:57 PM
In reply to the not scoring enough from play I always maintain that it is nearly always down to opposition fouling when a score is inevitable. Take the positives from it, learn from the mistakes & move on, dwelling on negatives seems to be our default position. As Mal Mackin alluded to after the game I thought the difference (in 2nd half &) from previous seasons was that we defended high up the field, rather than inviting trouble in our half.

Well done Armagh an unexpected point, plenty of fight & positives. Thought Mackin, mckeever, CV & Mcverry were best.

To a point benny, it didn't happen though really for 40 minutes if the game.  There were noc real chances created which is a concern. Also some of the "fouls" were dubious to the extreme. You are right though that once they took the game to Cork they were much better.  They put serious pressure on their defenders coming out and won at least 1 scored free as a result of forcing the mistake.  These are important to emphasise but it is also important to dwell on the negatives as you cannot improve if you do not address the failings you have as a team and for 40 minutes there was no attacking impetus whatsoever.  cork were very poor today and if Armagh had gone at them from the start they would have won with a bit to spare.  Just remember that although Armagh may have been missing 5-6 championship starters, so where Cork and they played 45 minutes of the game with 14 men.  Highlight the postives by all means but be honest and realise that there were a lot of problems there also.

Unexpected point however you need to win your homes games. Will need to pick up a few points on the road now.

Good hardworking display from Armagh, with players clearly giving their all to get a win.  A bit more composure and better shooting and we could have been won with a little bit to spare. As others have said a big factor was the pressure but high up the pitch - for too long Armagh have sat back and let teams come onto them, so hopefully this is going to be more of a feature. Vernon and Mackin in particular put in big displays and showed a good bit of leadership.  Good solid performances from many of the new fellas.  Hopefully this will give the team a bit of confidence - a good start in this division is critical.

Benny

Has Nippy definitely left the panel?

If so, why?

He's gone, dont know his reasons or if a return in the future is a possibility. Irish news cited work committments - which is pants.

McVerry a bit on the greedy side. He needs to learn to pass the ball a bit more

how did the keeper do? and what happened for the goal?

BC why did you think the sending off was harsh? From my view admittedly some distance away he appeared to strike and attempt to kick the man. Was that not case?

There were a few positives for me from the game but there's still a lot of negatives to be addressed otherwise it'll be a short summer.  That said I was in Croke park last night as well and for me the top teams are coming back to the pack a bit so maybe it's not all doom and gloom for Armagh

Quote from: Midman on February 05, 2012, 06:52:17 PM
how did the keeper do? and what happened for the goal?

It was a free in and Niall had it covered all the way but Kingham took a head stagger and tried to do a Daragh O Se on it, but fumbled and it flew into the net. Niall made a good stop in the second half, showed a lot of variation in kick outs and was competent.

I think people are too down on Kingham. The goal came from inexperience on all counts and was forgiveable, even though it looked awful. Kingham got an undeserved yellow card for a second tick and was probably on borrowed time because of that anyway. However he looked big, ignorant (in a good way) and mobile, which makes him better than James Lavery who is merely big and ignorant. I'd like to see more of him, I know Kerry wouldn't like to see him coming anyway.

Man of the Match was McKeever. Even when every single other member of the team was playing pure dung, McKeever was getting in Cork's collective grills and making them work. The subs were a huge addition, but this is a recurring theme with O'Rourke. We start with a team that we think are alright, but when they come out they play the first 20 minutes as if their confidence is in their boots.

I don't doubt we'll see Rafferty or Campbell, for example, starting against Kerry and them not able to do anything right and playing with total fear and getting subbed before half time. This happens again and again under O'Rourke.

As Crossbar says, large dose of perspective required here. Cork were crap even before they went down to, after that they were worse again. By rights we should have put six points on them. We huffed and puffed to draw when the win was there for the taking, it's a point lost, but hopefully we'll have learned valuable lessons this week and apply them in Kerry and maybe for once send out a team with a tiny amount of confidence in their ability and not shitting themselves about the reputations of the opponents for the entire first half.

On the ref, as noted earlier he was awful. However he was consistent with the soft free thing. Basically if a man was going through and he went over at all he won a free. Cork copped that very quick, it took us to the second half  to do it.

Heartening stuff today. Cork's shiteness and numerical disadvantage can't be discounted, but there were definitely a lot of positives to take away. Commitment and effort were first rate. Some promising individual displays from a few of the younger lads too. On the down side, the first half forward effort was pretty woeful and there were a few starters that might have to wait a long time to be given the nod again. Heading into next weekend, I'd hope a bit more faith is placed in the likes of Forker, Campbell and Rafferty, with the starting team resembling something closer to the team that dominated much of today's second half. A lot more encouraged about this year's prospects.

QuoteSome very negative vibs from the Armagh supporters on here.  Yes yas are missing a few but so are Cork. Being at home is a big benefit and you would like to think Armagh will go out and give it a go.

Just as with Healy Park for Tyrone I don't ever recall the Athletic Grounds exactly being a fortress for Armagh!

Your recollection is the difficulty here then.

that must be the case.  Remind me when it was fortress TAM?

I suppose a draw is a draw, when most were expecting a loss. Perspective is needed. Cork had to make the long trip. Cork were down to 14 men for the whole of the second half, a big loss in what transpired to be a running game. Though Armaghs fighting qualities have to be admired in the second half. Cork are not world beaters, as a modest Mayo side showed last summer.

Only watched the last 10 mins of this game. However one thing that did annoy me was the kick-out after the Armagh forward kicked a free wide. The Cork goalie picked out Alan O'Connor who won a good ball and was fouled, got up took a quick free and Cork appeared to be on their way when the ref for some unknown bizarre reason holds up the game to book a player for a challenge that was not worthy of a yellow card.

Did the ref ever play the game!!!! Why in gods name could he not let play go on and book him later if needs be. The booking played into the Armagh defence hands; everyone funnels back when the boy in black notes a number. Anyone with a feel for the game would have let the play develop. The biggest crisis facing the game if the quality of refs; or indeed how they are trained / assessed.

Incidentely the muppet did the same thing when the game ended. Surly the advantage has to be with the team attaching. With all the technology why can't we wait for the next big break to book a player. Rant over (and it only the first weekend of the league).

Quote from: SuperDooperCooper on February 05, 2012, 07:41:29 PM
Only watched the last 10 mins of this game. However one thing that did annoy me was the kick-out after the Armagh forward kicked a free wide. The Cork goalie picked out Alan O'Connor who won a good ball and was fouled, got up took a quick free and Cork appeared to be on their way when the ref for some unknown bizarre reason holds up the game to book a player for a challenge that was not worthy of a yellow card.

Did the ref ever play the game!!!! Why in gods name could he not let play go on and book him later if needs be. The booking played into the Armagh defence hands; everyone funnels back when the boy in black notes a number. Anyone with a feel for the game would have let the play develop. The biggest crisis facing the game if the quality of refs; or indeed how they are trained / assessed.

Incidentely the muppet did the same thing when the game ended. Surly the advantage has to be with the team attaching. With all the technology why can't we wait for the next big break to book a player. Rant over (and it only the first weekend of the league).

Would have to agree with you that this is how it should be done, but I don't think the rules allow it to be done that way, as technically the ref has to restart play (before the free is taken) so if he does that hes effectively saying I have dealt with everything up until now.  For the sending off in the first half, Armagh had the ball in the middle third on the left side when the ref blew his whistle and went and spoke to the linesman and sent off Kerrigan for whatever had happened on the right hand side of the pitch, he then went over and it appeared he was going to hop the ball where Armagh had it when he blew it up before deciding instead to give Armagh a free kick for no apparent reason.

A good point for Armagh, one which looked very unlikely at half time. McVerry who I thought was poor in the first half had a very good second half. Watters and Dyas were poor, saying that Dyas would probably be a better option at lhb than Finn Mo. Mackin was very good but still can't see a pass. Forker a Caolan Rafferty played well.

I like everyone else thought the ref had a bit of a mare. To me Kerrigan was sent off for putting his head into Moriarty's face.

Didn't look good at half time but great spirit showed by Armagh in the 2nd half.

Great leadership shown by McKeever and Andy Mallon in particular and Mal Mackin in the 2nd half. Caolan Rafferty was good in the 2nd half.

Unexpected point today, Cork were poor, they had a strong team out but there was no great urgency from them at any stage.
2 wins from somewhere would keep us up.

Poor performance from Cork and lucky enough to hold on for a point in the end. Cork should have been further ahead before the sending-off and in the second period we retreated too deep with the 14 men trying to hold on to the lead rather than pushing on to try and finish the game with a few scores of our own.

Don't have a big issue with the sending-off as Kerrigan raised his hand so under the rules deserved to go but overall I felt the referee was poor with some dubious calls made in the second half. I suppose you definitely know the GAA season is bang in earnest again when we are complaining about poor officiating so nothing new there.

Armagh deserved the draw and should be competitive in the division when they have a full contingent of players available. Cork will need to get a few of our forwards back from injury because the forward unit that lined out today will not be good enough in the long run.

Whilst the goal was a school-boy error I think Kingham should get another chance. As someone else said, he was big and ignorant in a good way.

Glad to see the tactics change. In the first half the long high ball into Mackin paid zero return. When Armagh ran at Cork in the second half it produced the scores. If we do that more often then we'll get much better at it.

A lot of positives from the second half today. I don't think Kingham deserves any stick and hopefully he will get another start to give him a chance to show his worth. The keeper looks very promising as did others mentioned such as a.duffy, mcverry, forker, campbell & rafferty. The stupid and ponderous play of the first half was replaced with hard work, ferocious tackling and a more positive attitude in the second half.

Swift will be no big loss as after being in the U21 team in 2004 (now in his late 20's) he has failed to break into an average enough armagh team. Unlucky last year with injury

Cork's backs exposed again in the second half.

Same old story. If you try and pass your way through them they'll just smother you. Run straight at them with pace and they don't like it one bit.

Kerrigan did put the head in... but he swung his elbow twice also.

Some of the comments on here show up what seems to be a divide in the County...Cross against the rest. Whether it is comments of BCB about McKeever or those about some Cross players having hit the ceiling. A bit of perspective and community outreach is required (maybe Peter Robinson could help). There are a number of Cross players, Aaron Cunningham, David McKenna, Stephen Kernan, Paul Kernan and James Morgan among them who are much better footballers than a number of yesterdays starters. Time to take of the pro Cross and Anti Cross blinkers lads. As to yesterday, hats off to Mackin, a player I have doubted in the past but he stepped up when it was needed and with McKeever dragged us home. Moriarty was much better than some comments on here pre game suggested he might be and Paul Duffy was as poor as I have always believed him to be. Vernon was good at midfiled despite the passing, but thank god Clarke and Stevie are in the wings.

Quote from: Applesisapples on February 06, 2012, 10:02:31 AM
Some of the comments on here show up what seems to be a divide in the County...Cross against the rest. Whether it is comments of BCB about McKeever or those about some Cross players having hit the ceiling. A bit of perspective and community outreach is required (maybe Peter Robinson could help). There are a number of Cross players, Aaron Cunningham, David McKenna, Stephen Kernan, Paul Kernan and James Morgan among them who are much better footballers than a number of yesterdays starters. Time to take of the pro Cross and Anti Cross blinkers lads. As to yesterday, hats off to Mackin, a player I have doubted in the past but he stepped up when it was needed and with McKeever dragged us home. Moriarty was much better than some comments on here pre game suggested he might be and Paul Duffy was as poor as I have always believed him to be. Vernon was good at midfiled despite the passing, but thank god Clarke and Stevie are in the wings.

What about my comments about McKeever?  I said he was lucky to stay on the field for a very clear elbow to the face of the Cork man who was lying on the ground.  On looking at it again it was a more clear cut sending off than Kerrigans.  I looked at Kerrigans again and matbe it was a sending off but Finn Mo was clearly the instigator and he got Kerrigan to react.  I made no issue about Cross or anti Cross.  I felt pre match that Cork would win with a bit to spare going by the teams on paper.  Losing Pa Kelly is a massive lose for Cork when he doesn't play as he is the fulcrum of every single attack and would have been a real steadying influence for them after Kerrigan got the line. 

The second half was encouraging for us mostly through the seeming change in attitude with regards to work rate and taking responsibility.  The reality though is that we didn't score from play for 50 minutes of the game and that is a worry.  If the pressure is to be lifted off Jamie and Stevie then that needs to change.  In fact I think the only starting forward who scored from play was Mackin and that was when he moved to midfield.  McVerry may have got 1 from play but 2 scores from play from you starting team is a poor return.  A lot of positives but just as many negatives and sometimes we lose perspective after a good result.

I think the point about McKeever bc is that you didn't mention his contribution when he was probably our best player. It was great to see Andy Mallon looking sharp and confident again and fair play to big mal - who I have severly doubted in the past myself.

McVerry, anto, forker and caolan raff will only be better players for yesterday's experience, irrespective of the fact that the sending off created the front foot environment. As I've said before, I'm not sure apple's list of possibles from cross will prove to be accurate. I think only Morgan is a possible armagh starter.

Great result for Armagh yesterday i was one of the many that doubted they have the capabilies to compete with the Cork team. However just because we achieved a result against one of the so-called big three teams dosnt make us world beaters.  I was impressed with Mc keever, Mallon, Mackin (when he moved out the field) Anto and Mc Very (in the second half.)  However i still think that without Stevie and Jamie we are going to struggle for scores from play.

Quote from: DuffleKing on February 06, 2012, 12:26:58 PM

I think the point about McKeever bc is that you didn't mention his contribution when he was probably our best player. It was great to see Andy Mallon looking sharp and confident again and fair play to big mal - who I have severly doubted in the past myself.

McVerry, anto, forker and caolan raff will only be better players for yesterday's experience, irrespective of the fact that the sending off created the front foot environment. As I've said before, I'm not sure apple's list of possibles from cross will prove to be accurate. I think only Morgan is a possible armagh starter.

I disagree with that would Stephen Kernan not deserve a chance at center half forward? In midfield would you not rather see David Mc Kenna or Johnny Hanratty in there if Toner isnt available?

Quote from: armaghranger12 on February 06, 2012, 01:53:10 PM

Quote from: DuffleKing on February 06, 2012, 12:26:58 PM

I think the point about McKeever bc is that you didn't mention his contribution when he was probably our best player. It was great to see Andy Mallon looking sharp and confident again and fair play to big mal - who I have severly doubted in the past myself.

McVerry, anto, forker and caolan raff will only be better players for yesterday's experience, irrespective of the fact that the sending off created the front foot environment. As I've said before, I'm not sure apple's list of possibles from cross will prove to be accurate. I think only Morgan is a possible armagh starter.

I disagree with that would Stephen Kernan not deserve a chance at center half forward? In midfield would you not rather see David Mc Kenna or Johnny Hanratty in there if Toner isnt available?

stephen kernan is now aged 28 / 29. His father and peter mcdonell give him ample opportunities between 2005 - 2009 to prove that he was good enough for county football. His da picked him for the mckenna cup at the same time he couldn't get into the crossmaglen team around 2007 / 2008. He gives me the impression he doesn't want to do the hard yards that are needed to be a successful county player. I certainly wouldn't be trying to build a forward line around him.

Quote from: regal on February 06, 2012, 02:40:28 PM

Quote from: armaghranger12 on February 06, 2012, 01:53:10 PM

Quote from: DuffleKing on February 06, 2012, 12:26:58 PM

I think the point about McKeever bc is that you didn't mention his contribution when he was probably our best player. It was great to see Andy Mallon looking sharp and confident again and fair play to big mal - who I have severly doubted in the past myself.

McVerry, anto, forker and caolan raff will only be better players for yesterday's experience, irrespective of the fact that the sending off created the front foot environment. As I've said before, I'm not sure apple's list of possibles from cross will prove to be accurate. I think only Morgan is a possible armagh starter.

I disagree with that would Stephen Kernan not deserve a chance at center half forward? In midfield would you not rather see David Mc Kenna or Johnny Hanratty in there if Toner isnt available?

stephen kernan is now aged 28 / 29. His father and peter mcdonell give him ample opportunities between 2005 - 2009 to prove that he was good enough for county football. His da picked him for the mckenna cup at the same time he couldn't get into the crossmaglen team around 2007 / 2008. He gives me the impression he doesn't want to do the hard yards that are needed to be a successful county player. I certainly wouldn't be trying to build a forward line around him.

Thats a fair point you make yea he is 29 and had a few chances but after watching the game yesterday i dont think that any of the starting half forwards would be the answer. Can you tell me who you would build your forward line around?
Brian Mallon, Micheal O'Rourke, Billy Joe Padden surly hes as good if not better then these guys?

did i hear right that hearty is retiring?
for what its worth i would play stephen kernan and would also like to see murnin get a run out
i am hoping that we can get a decent full forward( the county guys i am chatting to arent holding much hope for ronan getting back) with stevie and Jamie either side. wonder what aaron cunningham would be like
full back line should see  jamesmorgan coming in , and hopefully we should see toner back in midfield altho to be fair he may have his detractors but Mal has been playing out of his skin for these past 14 months

Quote from: armaghranger12 on February 06, 2012, 02:55:36 PM

Quote from: regal on February 06, 2012, 02:40:28 PM

Quote from: armaghranger12 on February 06, 2012, 01:53:10 PM

Quote from: DuffleKing on February 06, 2012, 12:26:58 PM

I think the point about McKeever bc is that you didn't mention his contribution when he was probably our best player. It was great to see Andy Mallon looking sharp and confident again and fair play to big mal - who I have severly doubted in the past myself.

McVerry, anto, forker and caolan raff will only be better players for yesterday's experience, irrespective of the fact that the sending off created the front foot environment. As I've said before, I'm not sure apple's list of possibles from cross will prove to be accurate. I think only Morgan is a possible armagh starter.

I disagree with that would Stephen Kernan not deserve a chance at center half forward? In midfield would you not rather see David Mc Kenna or Johnny Hanratty in there if Toner isnt available?

stephen kernan is now aged 28 / 29. His father and peter mcdonell give him ample opportunities between 2005 - 2009 to prove that he was good enough for county football. His da picked him for the mckenna cup at the same time he couldn't get into the crossmaglen team around 2007 / 2008. He gives me the impression he doesn't want to do the hard yards that are needed to be a successful county player. I certainly wouldn't be trying to build a forward line around him.

Thats a fair point you make yea he is 29 and had a few chances but after watching the game yesterday i dont think that any of the starting half forwards would be the answer. Can you tell me who you would build your forward line around?
Brian Mallon, Micheal O'Rourke, Billy Joe Padden surly hes as good if not better then these guys?

To be fair O'Rourke and Padden had fine championships last year, I don't remember Kernan having a great year with Armagh? I could be wrong though, i certainly remember a few league games when he was excellent.

However, the point is, he looks a different player with Cross this last two years. I don't even know if he wants to play county, but his club form over the last two years means he deserves a chance anyway. Club is different from county, he may not take it. O'Rourke and Padden have had a good year at county, Kernan will have to play well when given his chance. He does look a much better player 2010-2011 than he did when he was younger.

If he can bring that, then it means more competition for players, bringing the standard up,  and whether it's Padden, O'Rourke, Kernan or AN Other wearing 11 against Tyrone, that can only be a good thing surely.

Given the  fourteen men and all the injury problems , the feeling down South is that we are very happy with draw. The Subs performed very well and bar Sheeehan all the others will be back for the later stages of the League.

There is encouragement from this performance by Armagh, which seemed unlikely at half time. Armagh showed a bit of urgency in the second half, which has been lacking in a lot of performances in recent years.Andy Mallon showed why he was once regarded as an important player on the team, McKeever should watch his discipline, but he makes a priceless contribution. Kingham is a rough diamond, but he might benefit from polishing. Once again in recent years Armagh did not seem to have the coaching to bring players on. It was mentioned last year that Paul McGrane was helping out, advice from the likes of him and John Mc in his club could make Kingham a more measured player. Some of the younger forwards will benefit from the experience, as noted above. But we missed several handy frees and you need to get them if you are winning the frees.

Armagh has a tough campaign in Div 1, two teams have to be below us if we are to avoid the drop. Down have two points, Dublin or Donegal will pick up points later, including against us. Still a very hard road. 

armaghranger, I would agree that SK offers more than MOR or BJP. However, I would prefer others to be given gametime to see if we can develop a more effective forward line. Perhaps:

10 - AForker
11 - Cunningham
12 - ADuffy
13 - JClarke
14 - McDonnell
15 - McParland

I like Dyas, but it is frustrating that he cant nail down a position. Caolan Rafferty and Stefan Campbell look very promising. Others maybe - Grugan / BMallon / RRafferty / MORourke / McVerry. Those who I would suggest are further down the list - TKernan / Padden.

How do you rate Cunningham?

firstly the athletic grounds look great on TV so maybe a few more supporters could make the effort to go to the games. i enjoyed this game although the 'possession' game isn't easy to watch. the handbags ::) not worth talking about. for me it was mckeever,mal,andy, gene and also b.mallon when he came on. you could see that they had got a doin at half time for they were rearing to go in the second half and its not easy pinning this cork team back into their own half in any game. mals attacking play revealed the weakness in this cork team in that they would rather foul and give away frees than let an attacker shoot. i was a little disappointed that armagh didnt run at them a bit more. as for big kingham he can have a role to play on this team whether its in mid-field or up front, his sheer size makes him a useful asset but he needs coached into a role/system. kerry next and mckeever v galvin.. almost worth the drive down and back 

ps. after the game canty and mckeever made straight for each other to shake hands and embrace no doubt because of their involvement in the international rules. so inspite of their critics these games do have some value.

I see both counties have been fined €5000 by the CCCC and McKeever and Mackin both received one match suspensions over the first half melee. I wonder has the ref received any sanctions as it was undoubtedly his inconsistency that caused the row.

Can Kerry object? If McKeever didn't play against Kerry, poor old Tomás wouldn't have accidentally rubbed his knee off McKeever's thigh, and wouldn't have been sent off!!  ;)

From RTE:

Cork and Armagh have responded to the CCCC's decision to suspend a quartet of players and fine both county boards €5,000 following the mass brawl at the the Athletic Grounds a fortnight ago.

Cork's Michael Shields faces a two-match ban and his team-mate Pearse O'Neill has been banned for one match.

Armagh duo Malachy Mackin and Ciaran McKeever have both been handed one-match bans.

Cork will discuss the bans and fine between the panel before deciding whether to appeal the decision, while a county official for Armagh told the Irish Examiner that he would be "very surprised" if his county didn't appeal. That same official was also surprised the CCCC took so long to deliver their decision.

Cork selector Ger O'Sullivan has expressed surprise at the CCCC's decision. He told the Irish Examiner: "Okay, maybe they want to stamp out this pushing and shoving but I have seen it on DVD and I would be very surprised if anything came of it.

"There are more serious incidents that need investigation and should probably take up more time than something like this.

"Okay, it doesn't look good, I admit that, but unless I missed something it was two guys just wrestling and the rest of them came in to pull them off. If that is a crime and merits an investigation then that is very strange."

Monaghan and Kildare were also fined €5,000 on Wednesday for the clashes at Clones on Sunday last; that fracas carried over into the stands and tunnel.

Lilywhite selector Niall Carew has been handed a four-week suspension after being sent from the line while defender Brian Flanagan was banned for one game after receiving a red card.

GAA president Christy Cooney told the Irish Examiner that the deduction of league points may be considered as a suitable ban for similar scuffles in the future.

"I think that might come," he told the newspaper. "If the deterrent that is put in place now by the CCCC doesn't get the required response from counties, maybe the CCCC will have to look at it in another way, certainly.

"What that is I don't know. I haven't thought about it but it will certainly have to be looked at because what happened in Cork and Armagh and between Monaghan and Kildare is unacceptable and it cannot continue."

Cork's Michael Shields faces a two-match ban and his team-mate Pearse O'Neill has been banned for one match.

IMO the referee in that match created the atmosphere for something like that to happen. As far as I remember, Mackin was taken out of it... (& didn't get a free) which started barging match.

I reckon appeals will be made - they'll do well to find a punch thrown. - Pulling & shoving match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekwjHo6O9GY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekwjHo6O9GY)

The scuffle is on this after Kerrigan's red card about 8 1/2 mins in.

I assume McKeever has got done for the barge right at the ned of this clip about 10:15 or so...

Fine's are a joke, considering it was all the players pulling each other out of it.

10k fines and player suspensions for that? I've seen more pushing and shoving at the bar at last call. 

Between Armagh v Cork and Monaghan v Kildare they wasn't one decent punch thrown but I suppose someone has to think of the children in all this.  ::)

It seems to me that the furore over the junior bans has left the cccc in a position were they think they have to be hard on everyone and all they have actually done is alienate more players and fans. From what I saw at the match when there and from the video clips I cannot figure out why players were banned. There were worse 'tackles' in other parts of the match which have not warranted sanction. Talk of bans or point deductions are ridiculous - how do you deduct points if it happens in a championship match. If they really want to end this all they have to do is put a rule in where the third man in gets sent off.

Quote from: Throw ball on February 16, 2012, 02:23:12 PM
It seems to me that the furore over the junior bans has left the cccc in a position were they think they have to be hard on everyone and all they have actually done is alienate more players and fans. From what I saw at the match when there and from the video clips I cannot figure out why players were banned. There were worse 'tackles' in other parts of the match which have not warranted sanction. Talk of bans or point deductions are ridiculous - how do you deduct points if it happens in a championship match. If they really want to end this all they have to do is put a rule in where the third man in gets sent off.

Derrytresks fault again!!  :P

QuoteIf they really want to end this all they have to do is put a rule in where the third man in gets sent off.

This is the solution. When there are 2 players it is at least possible in principle for the officials to see what is going on and deal with it. These great crowds of players make it impossible to figure out exactly what is going on.

Can we get a restrospective ban for this one as well??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uG8jWZ4g7Nc

Tyrone and Armagh AGAIN . . . seems to be a bit of a trend in the GAA maybe both should be kicked out of the Ulster Championship to teach them a lesson!!

Wouldn't be suprised to see a slpit within the GAA in the next few years. The GAA committee's really are ruining the game.

I can see the suspensions being quashed on appeal, there was'nt a punch thrown - handbags

The whole thing is a farce. Sure a bit of shoving and pushing never hurt anyone.

cant believe it typical GAA I will wait to see if they persit with this until September???