The impact of Dublin's financial doping on the championship and Division 1

[seafoid]

There is a problem with quarter finals and there has been for a while.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/05/17/sean-moran-there-are-simply-too-many-teams-in-the-all-ireland-round-robin/

"It's hard to imagine what an innovation the quarter-finals were when introduced in 2001. Straight knockout matches between a variety of counties in pairings that were often unusual. As it happened in the first year three of the matches were reruns of provincial championship fixtures but this was alleviated by the first Kerry-Dublin encounter in the All-Ireland series for 16 years.

It even went to a replay. During the next six years there were seven replays in the quarter-finals and the average winning margin was just 0-4. From then up until the format change in 2017 there was just one further replay (as well as one quarter-final that went to extra-time, as was the rule that year, 2011).
Average winning margins almost doubled during that time and the two least competitive years – winning margins averaging nearly 0-12 – occurred in the last three championships, 2015 and 2017, before the Super 8s were introduced the following year. That stabilised things a little but during the two years more than a quarter of the matches ended in double-digit whackings.
Last year the quarter-finals returned but the margins were still averaging more than 0-8 and that included the Galway-Armagh tie that went to penalties. Without it the other three averaged 0-11."


There is a before an after to the Dublin thing.  And there are different patterns to before and after if you look at quarter finals.
If you take 2005 to 2012 as before and 2013 to 22 as after and ignore the covid seasons with no quarter finals in 20 and 21 you get 8 seasons for each.

In the before you have the 4 provinces providing teams with relative weights changing as power changes and a process of teams developing and fading out. So you can see see Cork losing 4 semi finals before winning the all Ireland in 2010 or Donegal going from a quarter final in 2009 to a semi in 2011 and the all Ireland the next year. You can also see Tyrone fading out post 08 and Dublin replacing them with 3 semi finals in a row from 2010.
What you can also see is Laois, Westmeath , Meath and Kildare regularly reaching quarter finals and Meath and Kildare getting to semi finals. There  were 11 quarter final appearances by these teams in 8 seasons. You could imagine Meath reaching an All Ireland final in 2015...

After 2012 there were just 2 non Dublin Leinster quarter final appearances. But there were still quarter finals. And what you see is Monaghan reaching 5 , Galway 4 not including last year and Roscommon getting to 3. This year's Roscommon team is probably different but there was a real drop in quality of the last 2 quarter final teams after 2012. And this is the structural problem with the quarter finals until the previous arrangement is restored. Teams that don't deserve it reach the quarter finals because there is nobody else. Galway eventually got organised but Monaghan didn't or couldn't. Roscommon never made a semi-final. Monaghan reached one.

Another interesting thing about the after situation is that for 4 seasons the same mix of semi finalists was repeated . Mayo, Dublin, Tyrone, Kerry. 13,15,17,19.
This indicates that the natural process of teams rising and falling is broken.

Dublin and Kerry have been in 7 out of 8 quarterfinals since 2013. Kerry arsed up the Super 8s in 2018.  There is a block of 4 "normal" teams and then the 2 slowcoaches. It's the same in Division 1. The quality is diluted.

The championship was a fragile ecosystem. So is Division 1.

And until the Dublin situation is resolved the competitions will continue to be compromised.


#IbelieveLaoisandKildareandWestmeathandMeath

[Derryman forever]

There is a problem with quarter finals and there has been for a while.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/05/17/sean-moran-there-are-simply-too-many-teams-in-the-all-ireland-round-robin/

"It's hard to imagine what an innovation the quarter-finals were when introduced in 2001. Straight knockout matches between a variety of counties in pairings that were often unusual. As it happened in the first year three of the matches were reruns of provincial championship fixtures but this was alleviated by the first Kerry-Dublin encounter in the All-Ireland series for 16 years.

It even went to a replay. During the next six years there were seven replays in the quarter-finals and the average winning margin was just 0-4. From then up until the format change in 2017 there was just one further replay (as well as one quarter-final that went to extra-time, as was the rule that year, 2011).
Average winning margins almost doubled during that time and the two least competitive years – winning margins averaging nearly 0-12 – occurred in the last three championships, 2015 and 2017, before the Super 8s were introduced the following year. That stabilised things a little but during the two years more than a quarter of the matches ended in double-digit whackings.
Last year the quarter-finals returned but the margins were still averaging more than 0-8 and that included the Galway-Armagh tie that went to penalties. Without it the other three averaged 0-11."


There is a before an after to the Dublin thing.  And there are different patterns to before and after if you look at quarter finals.
If you take 2005 to 2012 as before and 2013 to 22 as after and ignore the covid seasons with no quarter finals in 20 and 21 you get 8 seasons for each.

In the before you have the 4 provinces providing teams with relative weights changing as power changes and a process of teams developing and fading out. So you can see see Cork losing 4 semi finals before winning the all Ireland in 2010 or Donegal going from a quarter final in 2009 to a semi in 2011 and the all Ireland the next year. You can also see Tyrone fading out post 08 and Dublin replacing them with 3 semi finals in a row from 2010.
What you can also see is Laois, Westmeath , Meath and Kildare regularly reaching quarter finals and Meath and Kildare getting to semi finals. There  were 11 quarter final appearances by these teams in 8 seasons. You could imagine Meath reaching an All Ireland final in 2015...

After 2012 there were just 2 non Dublin Leinster quarter final appearances. But there were still quarter finals. And what you see is Monaghan reaching 5 , Galway 4 not including last year and Roscommon getting to 3. This year's Roscommon team is probably different but there was a real drop in quality of the last 2 quarter final teams after 2012. And this is the structural problem with the quarter finals until the previous arrangement is restored. Teams that don't deserve it reach the quarter finals because there is nobody else. Galway eventually got organised but Monaghan didn't or couldn't. Roscommon never made a semi-final. Monaghan reached one.

Another interesting thing about the after situation is that for 4 seasons the same mix of semi finalists was repeated . Mayo, Dublin, Tyrone, Kerry. 13,15,17,19.
This indicates that the natural process of teams rising and falling is broken.

Dublin and Kerry have been in 7 out of 8 quarterfinals since 2013. Kerry arsed up the Super 8s in 2018.  There is a block of 4 "normal" teams and then the 2 slowcoaches. It's the same in Division 1. The quality is diluted.

The championship was a fragile ecosystem. So is Division 1.

And until the Dublin situation is resolved the competitions will continue to be compromised.


#IbelieveLaoisandKildareandWestmeathandMeath

My head hurts.

[armaghniac]

That's a bit harsh on Roscommon or Monaghan. Surely a smaller county should get credit for their achievements even if they do not actually win an All Ireland?

[Cunny Funt]

That's a bit harsh on Roscommon or Monaghan. Surely a smaller county should get credit for their achievements even if they do not actually win an All Ireland?

Yes they should be getting more credit as counties much bigger than them aren't getting close to reach All Ireland quarter final or playing Div 1 football.

seafoid you already started a thread with that Irish Times article,  such average article didn't deserve one thread never mind two.

[seafoid]

It's because it didn't happen in a vacuum. Saying there is a problem with quarter finals doesn't tell you why.
The GAA also messed up the 2 main competitions. I think this is appalling.

Also re Monaghan I always wondered how they couldn't kick on. I would have loved to see them in an all Ireland final . But they couldn't. For me this explains it.
And hopefully Ros can change things this year.

But carry on.

[Captain Obvious]

It's because it didn't happen in a vacuum. Saying there is a problem with quarter finals doesn't tell you why.
The GAA also messed up the 2 main competitions. I think this is appalling.

Also re Monaghan I always wondered how they couldn't kick on. I would have loved to see them in an all Ireland final . But they couldn't. For me this explains it.
And hopefully Ros can change things this year.

But carry on.

Monaghan punched above their weight to reach All-Ireland semi final. A difficult group that year which included Kerry making their exit and beating your own county in their backyard.