Messages

O'Rourke won't ever take it.
Nothing to do with Shane, just too much to lose and little to gain from it.

I'd agree with Jinxy watching Giles at work. Perhaps he's a shrewd selector, but as a coach I'd not promote him that quickly.

Sean Kelly could be a good move, but for Meath they need a ruthless attitude and it needs to be an internal choice too. Meath are one county that should have a man with a ruthless enough attitude to turn the county around.

Someone mentioned Gerry McEntee and I'd be interested to see if he goes for it.
I think as a manager he'd be good, once he surrounded himself with the correct people and I think knowing the man he'd be astute enough to do that.

Kernan would have been the perfect choice had he not gone to Galway, but his stock has fallen and the gloss has gone from him. Same for Grimley. I'm not sure Grimley is held in as high an esteem as he once was. His reign in Monaghan wasn't exactly glorious - in fact some would suggest they went backwards once he came in. Anyway, he'd never go as a number one.

It's all pointless anyway. It'll be an internal appointment.

[All very subtle but I didn't like the look of how he was slowing down/turning.]

Is it OK if I agree with the points made by maiden rather than regurgitate the same arguments 

Looking at henry in the warm up he just didn't look right to me and it was even more pronounced the first few balls he went for. All very subtle but I didn't like the look of how he was slowing down/turning. As maiden has said Cody is normally ruthless when it comes to these type of decisions. I think him not doing so on this occasion showed weakness and affected the rest of the teams preparation going into the game

Exactly see my post above.

Before the game I was of two minds
1. It's not an ACL injury at all - it's been completely misdiagnosed. There is some cartilage damage and muscle injury but no ACL injury. This was supported by no one clearly coming out and saying for definite or being quoted (after about the Monday after the game) that it was 100% an ACL injury. All that there was was Ian O'Riordan cheerleading about the Lazarus recovery he had.

2. It is a partial ACL injury and he'll last 10 minutes. An ACL injury or more correctly the symptoms of one (swelling etc) can actually die down quite quickly, and the player with correct recovery can resume exercise quite fast. But twisting, turning etc are never at full pace for quite some time.

Sadly 2 it was.

I think Cody did make a mistake, but I certainly think he deserves far more credit for getting KK to that stage - the Drive for 5 was a great testament to his ability not to mention his players.

It's easy being wise after the event.
I sure as hell couldn't have even got into Cody's position to even make that 'mistake'.

3 similar injuries to key players in recent weeks with the 3 managers taking different approaches.

McGeeney named the team with Earley starting then didn't start him.
McCartan said Rodgers wouldn't be playing from early on and Fitzpatrick was taking his place and did exactly that.
Cody said Shefflin would be starting and all the focus in Kilkenny was on whether Shefflin would be playing.  Was there 2 much focus on Henry Shefflin considering some of the other players on the Kilkenny team?

Shefflin was not fit to start, they where 1-5 to 0-1 (or something like that) down when Shefflin came off, he missed a couple of frees (difficult frees) by quite a distance that he would normally have got at least 1 of and there was a few breaking balls around the 1/2 forward line that he would normally been first on to where he looked like he was only 1/2 going for the ball and 1/2 wondering should he be out there at all. 

No one can know for sure what would have happened if Cody had told Michael Rice and the rest of the team at the start of the week to forget about Henry and start focusing on the final without him.  I think Cody made a mistake, there is a good chance Cody with hindsight will think it was a mistake as well.  It is very unlike Cody as well.  He is usually totally ruthless with players like Charlie Carter in terms of dropping them, it looks like he made an exception for Henry Shefflin.

Excellent post.
You've clearly outlined the difference between the team knowing and the outsiders knowing and the fact that Cody perhaps should have been much more ruthless in his approach and not fooled into thinking that Henry could have recovered.

How some people with little or no medical knowledge can question Cody or even more importantly someone like Gerard Hartmann who has worked with over 50 Olympic medalists is beyond me. Of course these are the type of people whose style of "debate" includes such arguments as calling people clowns and saying everyone agrees with their point of view (when clearly that's not the case).

Shefflin trained a good few times on it and while I'm sure it wasn't full pelt it was hardly picnic stuff either. It was a calculated gamble which did not come off. The fact that Tennyson came through and played well reinforces the correctness of trying it in my book. Some people would have you think it was done on a whim.  I suppose if you're heros got extra special whippings off KK in recent times you'd be sore too. 

A few points on the above.
1. Hartmann may have 'worked with' over 50 olympic medalists - Not many would have been ACL's. They are a completely different family of injury.
2. Training and playing in an AI final are not the same (as Larry said himself today) - How hard do you think the KK boys pushed or tackled Henry Shefflin in training? You think you'd want to have been the man to be labelled the guy who crippled HS and ruined the 'Drive for 5'? Not a hope.
3. Thirdly, the position is important - stopping, twisting and turning are the key protective roles of the ACL. While CHB is not a role where twisting and turning is non-essential - the positioning of HS with back to goal is far more predicated on such demands.

It was a very foolish decision to start or even play Shefflin.
There is NO way the man could have played in that or any game of serious competition.

How Cody thought that I don't know?

People talk about the ACL and how strong it is or not - that's not the point. The fact is a very skilled player took the field with a knee (unsupported) and exposed the cartilage and joint to a dramatically increased risk of career ending injury and a nonprofessional life of pain and discomfort.

Whether the man wanted to play or not is largely irrelevant when you consider the long term health implications. 

KK would have been far better not have him near the team and do 'one for the Gipper' rather than have all the hype and hoopla not to mention the distraction on the players wondering if Henry was fit or not. The effect of Henry Shefflin was a FAR greater blow to Kilkenny hurlers than it would have been had he not started - ignoring the boost it gave to the Tipp players.

Absolutely devastating.

Patrick Dinsmore dropped dead tonight playing for Warrenpoint Minors against Rostrevor at Petit Park. Seems it was a massive heart attack.

The most gut wrenching thing that's ever been seen and one which puts so much into perspective. The screams of pain from his mother is something that will never be forgotten. Could cry thinking about it.

RIP young man.

Very, very sad.
RIP

Met a well known Monaghan GAA stalwart at the game in Croker and got chatting about the situation in his county and about Ulster football in general and all the management changes. Some very funny stories too about football over the years also. He said a number of things that I must say surprised me, but largely that the main concern within the county (and I guess the County Board) was the money being spent on the team and basically the large amounts being spent on the backroom team and money basically leaving the county which he made the point isn't the wealthiest county in the country (while some players were even out of work)? Most people don't think they're getting value for money.
He also said that only a very small group of players were even made aware of the 'statement' meeting or that it wasn't as unanimous as people think and there was still a fallout after the dropping or non-selection of that goalkeeper?
There were huge doubts over the Grimley factor too - poor return for the investment, other things were the fact that in 6 years or whatever there's been the same team all along, only a handful of new players introduced etc - so that this current crop of players are being driven into the ground and there'll be a a few lean years coming, if there isn't some new blood introduced? He did say that overall many or all people felt the Banty has done a great job, but has stalled, maybe gone backwards and new ideas and changes were needed to improve or win something before the current crop of players finished for good? 
I'd be interested in a Maguires, Harnguerars or a Monaghan man's thoughts on that? Any truth in any of that?
Both of us did agree that Monaghan would have given Cork or Dublin a good run yesterday and certainly run either Down or Kildare close if not beat them.

Players should concentrate on playing.

I don't mean to sound old fashioned (I still play myself), but a 19 year old or a 22 year old or any age of player has no business taking part in the issuing of statements, dictats or thinly veiled threats. Players should be concentrating on their own development. The clue is in the language. Players play. Adminstrators administer. Delegates are those who a club (the building block of the who damned thing) delegates action to.

A defined system and process put the Banty in place at the outset of his tenure, and who are the players to comment on whether or not this process is appropriate 6 years later? Who is anyone to decide - except the owners? And the owners are those people put in place, in a defined, tried and tested system in the most successful amateur organisation in the world.

If you don't agree with the system, then to borrow some bullet point letters from the players' statement:

a. become a club delegate yourself at your own club AGM and exercise your voice and your opinion (lot's of players do...Dessie Farrell did while still a relatively young player)

or

b. start your own association.

Was Fernando Torres consulted about the appointed before Hodgson was made manager of Liverpool? Absolutely not.
Was Brian O'Driscoll consulted before Declan Kidney was made manager of Ireland? Absolutely not.
Was Sean Cavanagh or Graham Canty consulted before Anthony Tohill was made manager of Ireland? Absolutely not.
The owners decide. And in GAA, the owners are the people, not the players who are merely a small subset of these same people, and merely passing through.

There is a system in place, whereby clubs elect club delegates, and club delegates represent the club at county board level.
The system is not broken. There is no need to fix.

We are talking about the most (and amateur) successful sporting organisation not just nationally, but globally in my view. And what makes it great is the fact that personalities are never bigger than the association. The cult of manager is a thing that has cropped up recently, but the wonderful thing is that these personalities often melt back into the ether when they get the occasional dose of humble pie...Kernan, O'Connor, Og Cusack... But the show goes on.

What would you rather exactly?

A democratic system of election, when the preferred candidate is elected. And then if you like him a lot, then change that system so that he can be manager for all eternity, but then when you are not happy with him (this will of course happen because you are evidently fickly by nature) and then put it back to a democratic vote.

The GAA is not based on whimsy or caprice, it is based on procedure and rules.

This is not Russia and Putin. When the rules said he couldn't remain in power, he tweaked the rules, and he's still the guvnor over there. What exactly do you want?

And before players put their name to any statements, they need to think more about their own performances when they cross the white line, and when their command of the most basic skills of Gaelic Football come down to themselves and not who the current manager is or should be, or concentrating on copper fastening a position on the team for next year by kicking on from encouraging performances in the white and blue and by making a significant mark in the club championships within the county.

In the Ulster Final, the Monaghan team gave possession of the ball back to the Tyrone team FORTY times in approx 40 minutes of actual playing time (and that does not include losing Monaghan kickouts), though poor kicks, handpasses, getting dispossessed or fouling the ball. If I was party to an abject statistic like that, I would think long and hard before writing a misguided letter to 'the media' about who the next manager should be.

In the Ulster Final and last round of qualifiers one particular player (I don't wish to personalize) repeatedly kicked the ball to the opposition or over the sideline and constantly frustrated his inside forwards with poor deliveries under limited pressure. He would be better served to think about that aspect of his game than to worry about who the next manager is and signing letters.

One of the forwards caused three totally unnecessary fouls inside the first 5 minutes against Kildare, when Monaghan were building up a head of steam and two points to no score to the good. Think more about that than signing pointless letters.

Two hugely talented teenagers are on this Monaghan panel. One has nailed down his jersey this year, and he needs to stay focussed on next year and ensuring he wasn't a one hit wonder. Not to become complacent and to build on the promise. Another who finally featured as a substitute seems to have all that is required at county level, so he needs to stay focussed too.

These guys would be well advised not become led by players who have been around for ten years and who are possibly approaching their intercounty expiry date.

These lads have no business signing statements when they are barely finding their feet at county level.

I'm never sure why this happens, but I feel it is a mixture of a few things:
-  'well sure every other county has done it' (Offally, Roscommon, Donegal, Cavan, Cork, Cork, Cork) so I suppose we should...
- players of an older vintage, or players who might be deemed 'close to the manager', may feel that their place on the panel for the following season may be under pressure if there is a change at the top.
- media stirring things up. As soon as the third Sunday of September passes and when there is a need to cmplement the inevitable sh1tstirring when the Compromise Rules comes to town, the media will need some player-power, medical expecnse outrages and GPA stories to keep the typewriters clickety clicking.

The future of Monaghan is hugely promising. And it is downright stupid for anyone to think that the success or failure will come down to whether one man remains at the helm or not.

Players like Dermot Malone, Colin Walshe, Kieran Duffy, Colm Greenan, Darren Hughes, Kieran Hughes, Conor McManus should be serious players for Monaghan over the next few years, with hopefully the likes of T Freeman, V Corey and P Finlay still there for the experience and class.

If the Banty remains, then that would be great. He has done an excellent job.
And if he does not remain, well then may the next man come in and do an excellent job.

The important thing is that the players retain open minds and just because the new man does things differently, just because he mightn't give a toss about S.A.Q. training or body fat, but perhaps has a more acute tactical awareness. None of it matters. What should matter to the players is the fact that managers are passing through too, as indeed the players are the temporary holders of the jersey, before passing it on to the next generation. All they should care about is that jersey, about fighting tooth and nail for their place in the Div 1 team next February and about keeping that jersey for next May and June. Managers come and go. Players come and go.

But players, please just play.

A friend of mine was involved in one of those player power actions a number of (10?) years ago, he finished playing 5 or 6 years back. He looks back now on that whole player power episode with mortal embarassment. He sees the big picture a lot better. That tends to happen when you look at things from a step back.

Last thing I'll say here is that players should play END OF (and I still play).

I hope some of the Monaghan panel are reading this.

Excellent Post Giveitlong.
Some great points and well made.

[Cavan]

Cavan - Outgoing: Tommy Carr - Incoming: Undecided - Favourite: Terry Hyland - Others: Pete McGrath - Non Runners: Donal Keoghan - Surprise Outsider : Seamus McEnaney

Fermanagh - Outgoing: Malachy O'Rourke - Incoming: Undecided - Favourite: Adrren Chapman - Others:  Sean Maguire, Aidan O'Rourke - Non Runners: Peter McGinnity

Laois - Outgoing: Sean Dempsey - Incoming:  Undecided - Favourite: None - Others:  Mick O'Dwyer, Seamus McEnaney - Non Runners: Dara O'Se

Wicklow - Outgoing: Mick O'Dwyer - Incoming:  Undecided - Favourite: No one - Others:

Donegal - Outgoing: John Joe Doherty - Incoming:  Jim McGuinness

Westmeath - Outgoing: Pat Flanagan - Incoming:  Undecided - Favourite: Dessie Dolan - Others:

Derry - Outgoing: Damien Cassidy  - Incoming:  Undecided - Favourite: John Brennan - Others: Henry Downey, John McCloskey, Damien Barton, Tony Scullion

Monaghan - Outgoing: Seamus McEnaney - Incoming:  Seamus McEnaney ?? - Favourite: - Undecided Others: Paul Grimley, Sean McCague, Declan Loughman

Mayo - Outgoing: John O'Mahony - Incoming: Undecided - Favourite: Non one! - Others: John Maughan, Tony Duffy

Brennan & Downey early favourites

Grimley is a good coach.
He's been well regarded by most of those he's worked with and few people have much bad to say about him.

He didn't 'over' achieve with Monaghan either, that's absolute bo!!ox. He didn't make them any worse either, but he certainly didn't over achieve. Monaghan are a decent team, but perhaps they've missed their chance. Like I think someone else said, there's too far too many cooks spoiling the broth in Monaghan.

In fairness it's hard to rate Grimley, he'd have to admit that too. It's easy to be second in command. If you look at Kildare this year and Monaghan, based on previous results you could nearly argue (wrongly) that he improved Kildare by leaving and made Monaghan worse! But that's not the case. He's a good addition to a sideline, a shrewd reader of a game and good coach and confidante of the players. Might never get to judge him properly though if he never take the Number one job.

As regards Kernan, you can't compare the two men. Kernan is a far better motivator and organizer than most and they worked well together.

BUT the ONLY one common theme that has been shown clearly by this year with both Grimley and Kernan - It doesn't matter who you are - you need good footballers to win!!!

McGuiness has the Donegal job ...

So the latest ...
Banty to Laois?

The Meath minor football manager:



Someone has to teach them young ruffians how to play the game. Their seniors clearly don't know what game they're playing as their last minute Touchdown in the Leinster Final proves.

That's an old one
Nearly looks like Eamon Dunphys brother

The ignorance and arrogance from the West Brits is equally interesting

Rumours now that Seamus McEnaney is going to be approached to become new Laois manager

Could do worse