Would you be in favour of a second tier?

[sid waddell]

Yes amplified showing the difference, so why would you have teams that get that can't compete in the league pit themselves against the likes of Dublin Mayo?

The league system itself is an active driver of the gap between the strong and the weak

If the strong keep playing the strong, they get stronger because they're constantly exposed to a high level of football

If the weak keep playing the weak and only the weak, they get weaker in relation to the strong, who keep galloping ahead

How can you improve if you're never exposed to a decent level of football?

So you need to redress the balance somewhat in terms of competition

[sid waddell]

So Kerry playing Clare will do what for each team?

It will do more for Clare than it will for Kerry

That's the point

This system was used with much success in the 2000s, and it drove competitiveness across the board

[imtommygunn]

The game has evolved a lot since then. I think we possibly come from different perspectives here in that you are from a very strong county and myself and mr are not. The constant beatings are not improving us and you could say the same for a number of other counties.

I don't remember offaly's scores from all their games to be honest but I just remember regular post-mortems on them. They haven't been near taking a scalp in a lot of years and are where they deserve to be (no harm to them as I always liked Offaly). They're a county like Antrim who clearly haven't been going anywhere football wise either so what is happening isn't working for them.

Football wise the same could be applied to Wicklow, Wexford, Leitrim, louth(where they go will be very interesting), a team like Laois, Waterford, arguably limerick although they should have beaten tipp this year. The list could go on. There are exceptions- Fermanagh always play above themselves. I am not even sure where I would put Westmeath any more. Sligo I would say the same for.

Also this last few years in hurling Westmeath, Carlow, Kerry and Meath have improved massively. Kildare look to be heading that direction too. Laois have always been a similar level. We have had to improve massively or we would be in the Christy ring too. I would say Westmeath, Carlow and maybe Kerry are the best they have been in my lifetime.

Basically something needs done because football is definitely dying a bit at inter county level. Watching teams in division four try to implement tactics that Dublin, Mayo, Donegal etc use is painful to watch too but maybe that's another story but having the chance to win something might hopefully change that.

[Ed Ricketts]

Nothing wrong with the tiered nature of the league. The tiering allows counties make incremental, measurable progress. You could argue that three tiers instead of four would be better in a future where the league and championship combine, but tiering as a concept is fine. It works at club level, at school level, in hurling, in ladies football, in camogie. It would work in intercounty championship football too, given a chance.

Token exposure for weaker sides didn't do much for anyone when the system was in use 20 years ago. The competition became like an extended McKenna Cup, with experimentation rife and few counties taking the competition seriously. In 2002, Armagh and Kerry were the two best teams in the country. But both had also allowed themselves fall away to Division 2A in the NFL, such was their indifference towards the competition. The weaker counties were learning nothing playing against disinterested, half-strength versions of the big boys.

But none of it really matters in a world where one team wins everything. This is all just shuffling deck chairs until something is done about that.

[Milltown Row2]

A second championship filled with the likes of Meath Cavan Tipp Roscommon Kildare Armagh Cork Derry and other liked teams would provide a tight tournament with the winners gaining promotion to the Sam Maguire.

None of the teams above will win Sam in the next ten years if they continue to muddle along, when you are fighting to get out of a group that would be equal enough in terms of talent then that puts you in good stead going forward, losing a match in your championship and maybe winning one qualifier won't progress you at all

[sid waddell]

The game has evolved a lot since then. I think we possibly come from different perspectives here in that you are from a very strong county and myself and mr are not. The constant beatings are not improving us and you could say the same for a number of other counties.

I don't remember offaly's scores from all their games to be honest but I just remember regular post-mortems on them. They haven't been near taking a scalp in a lot of years and are where they deserve to be (no harm to them as I always liked Offaly). They're a county like Antrim who clearly haven't been going anywhere football wise either so what is happening isn't working for them.

Football wise the same could be applied to Wicklow, Wexford, Leitrim, louth(where they go will be very interesting), a team like Laois, Waterford, arguably limerick although they should have beaten tipp this year. The list could go on. There are exceptions- Fermanagh always play above themselves. I am not even sure where I would put Westmeath any more. Sligo I would say the same for.

Also this last few years in hurling Westmeath, Carlow, Kerry and Meath have improved massively. Kildare look to be heading that direction too. Laois have always been a similar level. We have had to improve massively or we would be in the Christy ring too. I would say Westmeath, Carlow and maybe Kerry are the best they have been in my lifetime.

Basically something needs done because football is definitely dying a bit at inter county level. Watching teams in division four try to implement tactics that Dublin, Mayo, Donegal etc use is painful to watch too but maybe that's another story but having the chance to win something might hopefully change that.

The principle is the exact same - always has been, always will be

If you're exposed to a higher level of competition on a regular basis, you have more chance to improve, if all you're exposed to a low level of competition, you have less chance to improve

This is not a short term fix and is not a stand alone fix - it has to be accompanied by other thing, and in the first few years, teams will ship heavy beatings in some matches - but not all - but you have to start somewhere in terms of evening things up

For all the talk of improvements in hurling in weaker counties, I just don't see it at all, like, what's improvement, is it improvement in terms of skill levels compared to where your team was 10 or 15 years ago or is it improvement in terms of competitiveness - the latter is all that matters, and I don't think that has improved at all, it's got worse

Westmeath beat Dublin in Leinster in 2006, they wouldn't get near them now

If it's the former, you could argue that Leitrim have made strides in football because their team is probably fitter and more skilled than the team they had 15 years ago, but in terms of competition, they're less competitive

[Milltown Row2]

So you haven't watched any of the Joe McDonagh games? Why would you? Sunday game won't show them.

Laois pushed Clare this year, beat Dublin a while back, even Antrim beat Dublin under Daly.

Carlow and Kerry are very decent too, and physically big, what we small teams lack is quickness on the ball, that'll come, once the backdoor came in the traditional counties took off!

Breaking into the top tiers needs to be achieved through promotion. You've got to earn it, getting hammered every week will only bring both standards down, the likes of Kerry playing Clare will result in  Kerry throwing out their b team or not getting up for the match, Clare go behind early doors then then it's a collapse, but like Mayo v Tipp, embarrassing.

Whereas when you've beat the teams around you in tight hard fought games and win the final you're above the bottom tier, physically and mentally ready to target the bottom teams in the top group, yes the beatings may come from the top 4/5 but setting your stall out to target the lesser teams will give confidence.

[sid waddell]

Nothing wrong with the tiered nature of the league. The tiering allows counties make incremental, measurable progress. You could argue that three tiers instead of four would be better in a future where the league and championship combine, but tiering as a concept is fine. It works at club level, at school level, in hurling, in ladies football, in camogie. It would work in intercounty championship football too, given a chance.

Token exposure for weaker sides didn't do much for anyone when the system was in use 20 years ago. The competition became like an extended McKenna Cup, with experimentation rife and few counties taking the competition seriously. In 2002, Armagh and Kerry were the two best teams in the country. But both had also allowed themselves fall away to Division 2A in the NFL, such was their indifference towards the competition. The weaker counties were learning nothing playing against disinterested, half-strength versions of the big boys.

But none of it really matters in a world where one team wins everything. This is all just shuffling deck chairs until something is done about that.

But it hasn't worked in inter-county football

The current Divisions 1 to 4 system came back in in 2008

It took a few years for the gaps to open up in a big way, but they opened up, and got wider

Division 1 is such a high standard of football that those who get in and are able to stay in open up a yawning gap on even the Division 2 teams

When the league had 16 teams each in Division 1 and Division 2, it was a more competitive championship across the board

Sligo and Fermanagh and later Wexford were genuinely contending at the business end of the championship - all were Division 1 teams and all reached at least league semi-finals shortly before they went deep in the championship, Sligo and Fermanagh reached league semi-finals in 2001 and 2003 respectively, and Wexford reached a league final in 2005

I don't think they could have gone so deep in the championship without the good standard of league football they were used to - that standard of regular football brought all of them on hugely

Also Armagh and Kerry falling into Division 2 and still reaching an All-Ireland was proof that the gap between counties and divisions was much closer then -  it was a better system

NFL Division 1 now is a good television product, but that's all it is - it has helped to ruin competitiveness in general

[Milltown Row2]

I'm talking championship, it's not been done before, leagues unfortunately in football are not taken too seriously by all the teams, otherwise Dublin would be going for 10 in a row.

Are you telling me Tipp should be in a fight for Sam? Or Cavan for that matter?

And explain why

[imtommygunn]

Are Dublin not way better than they were in 2006? Also to be honest the game is vastly different from 13/14 years ago. The preparation is on a different level so you would expect skill levels to be better.

To me Westmeath etc are way better than they were. Your barometer is competitiveness. I really don't think Carlow, Westmeath, Antrim etc have been competitive for a long time. Offaly too. I mean competitive against the "big boys". I watched these teams a lot over the years and in most cases they have been poor. The current Westmeath team is not poor, the Kerry team isn't poor, Carlow 10-15 years ago imo these teams were poor.

Your point about playing a higher level is fair enough but if teams are getting hammered, and they are, they are learning nothing. That was what was happening in the hurling. That is what happens a lot in the football now. Football doesn't lend itself to as big hammerings scoreboard wise as hurling but the chances of shocks really remains the same.

I don't disagree with some of your points but when the gap is too big you learn nothing. If the sport is in a place where are too many gaps that are too big then something like splitting championship needs seriously looked at.

[From the Bunker]

The game has evolved a lot since then. I think we possibly come from different perspectives here in that you are from a very strong county and myself and mr are not. The constant beatings are not improving us and you could say the same for a number of other counties.

I don't remember offaly's scores from all their games to be honest but I just remember regular post-mortems on them. They haven't been near taking a scalp in a lot of years and are where they deserve to be (no harm to them as I always liked Offaly). They're a county like Antrim who clearly haven't been going anywhere football wise either so what is happening isn't working for them.

Football wise the same could be applied to Wicklow, Wexford, Leitrim, louth(where they go will be very interesting), a team like Laois, Waterford, arguably limerick although they should have beaten tipp this year. The list could go on. There are exceptions- Fermanagh always play above themselves. I am not even sure where I would put Westmeath any more. Sligo I would say the same for.

Also this last few years in hurling Westmeath, Carlow, Kerry and Meath have improved massively. Kildare look to be heading that direction too. Laois have always been a similar level. We have had to improve massively or we would be in the Christy ring too. I would say Westmeath, Carlow and maybe Kerry are the best they have been in my lifetime.

Basically something needs done because football is definitely dying a bit at inter county level. Watching teams in division four try to implement tactics that Dublin, Mayo, Donegal etc use is painful to watch too but maybe that's another story but having the chance to win something might hopefully change that.

The principle is the exact same - always has been, always will be

If you're exposed to a higher level of competition on a regular basis, you have more chance to improve, if all you're exposed to a low level of competition, you have less chance to improve

This is not a short term fix and is not a stand alone fix - it has to be accompanied by other thing, and in the first few years, teams will ship heavy beatings in some matches - but not all - but you have to start somewhere in terms of evening things up

For all the talk of improvements in hurling in weaker counties, I just don't see it at all, like, what's improvement, is it improvement in terms of skill levels compared to where your team was 10 or 15 years ago or is it improvement in terms of competitiveness - the latter is all that matters, and I don't think that has improved at all, it's got worse

Westmeath beat Dublin in Leinster in 2006, they wouldn't get near them now

If it's the former, you could argue that Leitrim have made strides in football because their team is probably fitter and more skilled than the team they had 15 years ago, but in terms of competition, they're less competitive

Dublin won the Leinster Championship in 2006. Westmeath beat them in 2004.

On the Hurling example - Hurling has improved. The problem is that counties like Antrim and Offaly have been left behind.

[sid waddell]

So you haven't watched any of the Joe McDonagh games? Why would you? Sunday game won't show them.

Laois pushed Clare this year, beat Dublin a while back, even Antrim beat Dublin under Daly.

Carlow and Kerry are very decent too, and physically big, what we small teams lack is quickness on the ball, that'll come, once the backdoor came in the traditional counties took off!

Breaking into the top tiers needs to be achieved through promotion. You've got to earn it, getting hammered every week will only bring both standards down, the likes of Kerry playing Clare will result in  Kerry throwing out their b team or not getting up for the match, Clare go behind early doors then then it's a collapse, but like Mayo v Tipp, embarrassing.

Whereas when you've beat the teams around you in tight hard fought games and win the final you're above the bottom tier, physically and mentally ready to target the bottom teams in the top group, yes the beatings may come from the top 4/5 but setting your stall out to target the lesser teams will give confidence.

The Sunday Game sometimes shows brief highlights of the lower tier hurling competitions, but it's tokenism, and that's all it will ever be, these second and third tier competitions are of no real interest to television, the viewing public are not interested

Which is a warning as to why they should be avoided in football

As soon as you break into the top tier, you're likely back down straight away because you are not used to the speed of the game at the higher level

This is a pattern in hurling and it's now a pattern for teams who get promoted from Division 2 in football - they go straight back down

It's over 11 years since Antrim beat Dublin

Laois improved because they had Eddie Brennan, who is a good coach and a massive name, who knows what it takes at the highest level, with the best team in history - he is a legend of the game who knows what he's doing - that's why he had total buy in from his players

Also Laois have advantages that Antrim don't have, like geographical proximity to strong hurling counties, meaning a much easier cross-pollination of ideas and people

But Carlow have that too and it's not enough

And but for relegation being abandoned in Leinster this year, Laois would still be back in the Tier 2 competition next year - whoever wins it this year will likely face instant relegation back next year - it's very hard to improve in the long term like that, because it's nearly always one step forward, two steps back - there's no continuity

Laois might get some continuity next year through staying in the Leinster round robin, but now Brennan is gone, which will likely knock them back significantly

[Milltown Row2]

The game has evolved a lot since then. I think we possibly come from different perspectives here in that you are from a very strong county and myself and mr are not. The constant beatings are not improving us and you could say the same for a number of other counties.

I don't remember offaly's scores from all their games to be honest but I just remember regular post-mortems on them. They haven't been near taking a scalp in a lot of years and are where they deserve to be (no harm to them as I always liked Offaly). They're a county like Antrim who clearly haven't been going anywhere football wise either so what is happening isn't working for them.

Football wise the same could be applied to Wicklow, Wexford, Leitrim, louth(where they go will be very interesting), a team like Laois, Waterford, arguably limerick although they should have beaten tipp this year. The list could go on. There are exceptions- Fermanagh always play above themselves. I am not even sure where I would put Westmeath any more. Sligo I would say the same for.

Also this last few years in hurling Westmeath, Carlow, Kerry and Meath have improved massively. Kildare look to be heading that direction too. Laois have always been a similar level. We have had to improve massively or we would be in the Christy ring too. I would say Westmeath, Carlow and maybe Kerry are the best they have been in my lifetime.

Basically something needs done because football is definitely dying a bit at inter county level. Watching teams in division four try to implement tactics that Dublin, Mayo, Donegal etc use is painful to watch too but maybe that's another story but having the chance to win something might hopefully change that.

The principle is the exact same - always has been, always will be

If you're exposed to a higher level of competition on a regular basis, you have more chance to improve, if all you're exposed to a low level of competition, you have less chance to improve

This is not a short term fix and is not a stand alone fix - it has to be accompanied by other thing, and in the first few years, teams will ship heavy beatings in some matches - but not all - but you have to start somewhere in terms of evening things up

For all the talk of improvements in hurling in weaker counties, I just don't see it at all, like, what's improvement, is it improvement in terms of skill levels compared to where your team was 10 or 15 years ago or is it improvement in terms of competitiveness - the latter is all that matters, and I don't think that has improved at all, it's got worse

Westmeath beat Dublin in Leinster in 2006, they wouldn't get near them now

If it's the former, you could argue that Leitrim have made strides in football because their team is probably fitter and more skilled than the team they had 15 years ago, but in terms of competition, they're less competitive

Dublin won the Leinster Championship in 2006. Westmeath beat them in 2004.

On the Hurling example - Hurling has improved. The problem is that counties like Antrim and Offaly have been left behind.

Antrim are promoted and play final on Sunday, but I get your point about Offaly

[macdanger2]

Changing competition structures will do damn all for improving the lot of any county. Money and expertise is what counts

[Captain Obvious]

So I'm wondering if opinions have changed on this topic in the last year.  We had the two big upsets in the provincial finals followed by two absolute hammerings for those teams.  The more I think about this, the more I am on the side of a tier two competition, with continued participation in the provincial championship.

Tipperary, Cavan provincial title success will be talked about for many years to come. If either was to play in this second tier competition and won it,   it would be quickly forgotten about.