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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: Trevor Hill on January 18, 2010, 12:28:52 AM

Title: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Trevor Hill on January 18, 2010, 12:28:52 AM
Quite an interesting article in the Sunday Times, while not quite relevant to the Liam/Gerry Adams thread, I think it raises an issue that some may have missed. If Gerry does resign because of his brother, there really is no one to take over.

Shortly after last June’s local elections, a private document wended its way through the backrooms of Sinn Fein headquarters. Marked for the attention of party leaders, it painted a dark and pessimistic picture of the state of Sinn Fein.

A “culture of fear” pervaded the organisation, it said, leaving members disempowered and frustrated. The party’s bright hope for the future, Mary Lou McDonald, had little hope of securing a seat in Dublin Central in the next general election, while Aengus Ó Snodaigh was also likely to lose his Dublin seat. “Sinn Fein is in serious and potentially critical decline in Dublin,” it said. “We are one election away from being totally irrelevant in Dublin, and the south in general.”

Six months after writing the internal review, Killian Forde had still not received a response from his party leaders. He took this to be further evidence of a refusal by Sinn Fein to engage with anyone who spoke out of turn.

The silence was compounded by a public rap across the knuckles from the party for voting for the Dublin city council budget. The 39-year-old councillor decided he had had enough. Last week he announced his intention to jump ship and join the Labour party.

The resignation of a local representative would not normally merit the attention of the national media, but Forde’s defection marked a trend: he was the fourth Sinn Fein councillor to leave the party in six months. To lose one might be regarded as misfortune; to lose four signals political danger.

With the peace process in excellent health in Northern Ireland and a growing appetite for socialist politics in the republic, Sinn Fein should be thriving and expanding. So why would any councillor choose now to leave?

Is it, as party officials have valiantly claimed, an insignificant blip in an otherwise prospering organisation? Or has the absence of a leader in the republic, combined with the infamous party discipline, made it unattractive to both voters and politicians alike? Is there any truth in Forde’s claim that Sinn Fein is one election away from oblivion in the republic?

FOR party headquarters, the figures don’t add up. Between 1999 and 2004, Sinn Fein enjoyed unprecedented electoral success, increasing its number of council seats from 21 to 54 and its TDs from one to five. But instead of it continuing to ride that wave of popularity, the tide seems to have gone out.

Far from achieving its publicly stated objective of doubling the party’s Dail seats in the 2007 elections, Sinn Fein lost a TD when Sean Crowe was defeated in Dublin South West. Suddenly, all the pre-election speculation about a Fianna Fail-Sinn Fein coalition seemed rather premature.

Last year, the party managed to hold its 54 council spots, but McDonald was unseated from the European parliament by Joe Higgins, a socialist rival. McDonald’s €160,000 budget, about four times the amount spent by Higgins, wasn’t enough to convince the electorate.

Pearse Doherty, Sinn Fein’s Donegal-based senator, said it was simply unrealistic to expect big wins at every election.

“Last June we consolidated the huge growth we had made in the previous elections,” he said. “We have also been attracting lots of new members to the party. Last year was one of our best years for that.”

Sure enough, figures from party headquarters show that between 2007 and 2009 there was an increase in the numbers joining the party, as membership grew from 4,366 to 4,823. College applications in particular are booming, with 1,300 students joining the party last year.

It seems to fit with Doherty’s claim, the profile of a small party that is building steadily, after a brief spurt in growth. But closer inspection by one political analyst reveals a considerably more volatile situation.

“If you look at what happened to Sinn Fein in Dublin between the 2004 and 2009 elections, you see there was a huge turnover of councillors,” he said. “Six left and were replaced in Dublin city council, there was another in Tallaght, and even in places like Donegal there were resignations.”

A certain level of turnover is expected in every party between elections, but the analyst said this was well above the norm.

“The last time I saw anything like it was in 1991, when there were mass defections from the Green party,” he said. “It points to something being radically wrong somewhere in the party. With another four having resigned in the past six months, you start to see there’s a definite trend. They might say they’re not worried about it, but they would have to be. It’s actually more surprising and more concerning for Sinn Fein than it would be for other parties, because one thing they are renowned for is their discipline.”

Forde believes that it is precisely this notorious discipline that is driving members away.

“At the time of the peace process it was very important that no one stepped out of line, and I think we all understood that,” he said. “But when you spend 15 years punishing people for being off message, you get a situation where people are afraid to express any view that is different or new. You would notice that people who spoke out were isolated or just didn’t appear on a particular committee any more. When people see how militant it is, they just don’t stay. Hundreds of people have left from the Dublin organisation in the last couple of years.”

Doherty denied there was any problem with democracy in the Sinn Fein organisation, saying that one of the reasons Forde left was that he could not accept the democratic decision of the party to reject the Dublin city council estimates.

“Killian Forde also left because he wanted to advance his own political career,” he said. “If you want a career in politics, Sinn Fein is the wrong party for you. We are not in it for ourselves: we’re there to serve the people.”

It’s a noble sentiment, but a startling one too. Running a party on the basis that nobody looking for a career need apply seems a sure-fire way of driving the most talented and ambitious young politicians into the arms of the opposition parties.

“I don’t think so,” said Doherty. “It’s that type of attitude that is at the core of what Sinn Fein is about, and that will attract the type of candidates we want — the people who see it as a privilege to serve the party.”

Unfortunately for Sinn Fein, there seems to be a dearth of such politicians in Ireland.

Doherty himself is one of the new hopes for the party, and is tipped to take the seat vacated by Fianna Fail’s Pat “the Cope” Gallagher in Donegal when the government gets round to holding a by-election.

McDonald and Toiréasa Ferris are also regularly name-checked by party officials when defending the ageing profile of their public representatives.

Ferris, who failed in her bid for a European parliament seat in Ireland South in June, caused some controversy last year when she claimed Sinn Fein meant “nothing to the bulk of people in the south” and was viewed as a “northern-based party, irrelevant to the everyday concerns of people in the 26 counties”. She later said these remarks were taken out of context.

McDonald, in particular, was being groomed by the party to take a leadership role but despite huge resources being pumped into her 2007 general election campaign and European election bid, she failed to get elected.

“McDonald is just a defeated docket at the moment,” said one Labour analyst. “We haven’t seen or heard a thing from her since last June. Things can obviously change quickly in politics, but at the moment that project has definitely failed.”

In the absence of any obvious successor, it seems Gerry Adams, the Sinn Fein president, will soldier on in the position he first took up in 1983. Even though former and current members of Sinn Fein are reluctant to admit it, Adams is becoming one of the party’s biggest liabilities in the republic.

“The lack of leadership in the south is a huge issue for them,” said one analyst. “Adams is very confident talking about the north, but ask him about the economic crisis here and he looks completely lost. He was totally shown up in the leaders’ television debate before the last general election, and that did Sinn Fein a lot of damage. If they want to stop the tide going out, they need to get a strong southern leader.”

But even if Sinn Fein can successfully grapple with its organisational difficulties, can the party convince the Irish electorate to take it seriously?

On paper, Sinn Fein has some potentially strong selling points, such as the fact that their TDs and senators continue to earn only the average industrial wage, which, in the midst of a recession, should give them a moral advantage over their rivals, the Labour party. They have deep-rooted socialist policies, which should appeal to an electorate scarred by our recently imploded capitalist economy.

“I think we have the right policies and the right politics, but we’re not telling people about it in the right way,” said Ferris. Doherty, too, believes that the party is failing to communicate what it is offering. Both reject the allegation from some commentators that Sinn Fein was a “one-trick-pony”, and that the success of the peace process has, conversely, spelled the death of the party in the south.

Forde also rejects this assessment. “We actually produced a very sound and comprehensive document about the banking crisis,” he said. “The problem is, the crisis happened in October, and it took us until March or April to get it out, so obviously no media organisation wanted to cover it then. Sinn Fein needs to change its mindset from crisis management to normal, routine party work, but that change has to come from the top, and it’s not coming.”

But with no leader in the republic to speak to the media on crucial issues, and the party’s slow reaction to events robbing them of media coverage, Sinn Fein has found itself consistently outshone by the Labour party.

It has also struggled to maintain good relations with its socialist comrades, and is finding itself increasingly isolated in both the Dail and at local level. Christy Burke, the former Sinn Fein councillor who, last June, resigned from the party after 30 years, said Sinn Fein’s refusal to compromise was one of his primary reasons for leaving the party.

“Somebody in head office needs to cop on and realise that you can’t go looking for all the gravy and never dish it out,” he said. “We will never get anywhere if we vote against everything all the time. The Sinn Fein councillors who voted against the Dublin city council estimates thought they were voting against bin charges, but they were also voting against money for playgrounds and swimming pools and community development. I left because I wanted to be a player, to start having a real influence. Sinn Fein has to get real. If they want to see results, they have to start co-operating with other groups.”

In 2007, there did seem to be some glimmer of hope for such co-operation, when Labour and Sinn Fein made history by agreeing to a pact for the Seanad elections. It led to intense speculation that a left-wing collaboration might be in the offing, but since then there has been little sign of any further co-operation between the two parties.

Despite this, Doherty envisages a future “left alliance” involving Sinn Fein, the Labour party, and left-wing independents. “Irish politics can’t always be about the Tweedledum and Tweedledee combination,” he said. “We have seen huge changes in the political landscape in the past few years. People want something different. The left parties and left-wing independents could come together and give voters the option of a majority left government for the first time in this country. That would be a real alternative.”

The Labour party is considerably less enthusiastic about this prospect. Asked if the party would now consider an alliance with Sinn Fein, one Labour analyst laughed. “Of the 80 seats that Fianna Fail lost in the local elections, we took more than 30 and Sinn Fein didn’t take any,” he said. “I don’t know what the future holds for them. But the Labour party is the left alliance.”
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Zapatista on January 18, 2010, 08:03:59 AM
Where did you take that from? It a little sensational.

I think the success of SF between 99 and 04 was huge and they are still holding that ground. It's been a case of 2 steps forward and stop since then so I doubt if they are too worried. I'd say SF look at it over a longer period and that their place in politics didn't start in 99. Since then they are in Government in the north and could become the biggest party in the north.

The 4 cllrs who left all left for different reasons and went to different places so I don't know if you can call that a trend. 1 went to FF, 1 went to LAB, 1 to Eirigi and 1 independent. All bar 1 left within 6 months of being elected on a SF ticket. All were SF reps who held their seats. I'd say all were probably in the wrong party to begin with.

Mary Lou McD didn't loose her seat to Higgans. Dublin was reduced from a 4 seater to a 3 seater and she lost out on that. SF was the obvious one to lose out there. Higgans took the FF seat.

It's a little encouraging to hear Forde left to futher his political career. Brian Lenihan claimed in the Oct budget that politics was a vocation. I laughed when I heard that coming from FF. It's nice to know that there still might be people out there who are not in it for themselves.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 18, 2010, 11:25:09 AM
Would have to agree that this story is sensationalist. Fordes remark that he "wants to be a player" and the fact that he didn't resign his seat won on a SF ticket, contrary to the pledge taken on becoming a SF cllr. essentially proves he was motivated by careerism. In county councils, SF gained 2 cllrs in cork & wicklow, and gained one in 6 city councils & one in 7 more county councils & the figures in the article shows SF remains the choice of young people. No reason to panic.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: trileacman on January 18, 2010, 11:37:52 AM

With the peace process in excellent health in Northern Ireland and a growing appetite for socialist politics in the republic, Sinn Fein should be thriving and expanding. So why would any councillor choose now to leave?


Stopped trying to take it seriously after that. The idea that a) the peace process is in excellent health, b) there's a growing appetite for socialist policies in the south ??? where's that coming from, and c) Sinn fein represent a socialist ticket. Wrong on all counts IMO.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Silky on January 18, 2010, 12:25:56 PM
It seems to be a Dublin problem rather than the whole country.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on January 18, 2010, 12:36:01 PM
It seems to be a Dublin problem rather than the whole country.

Sinn Féin in meltdown is a problem?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 18, 2010, 08:47:19 PM
Yes Sinn Fein in meltdown would b a problem as they currently represent the only effective force in Irish Republican politics. Lets face it, if we're talking about the free state here, they are the only republican party in leinster house and the only party to stand for election in each of Ireland's 32 counties.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: ardmhachaabu on January 18, 2010, 09:16:44 PM
Yes Sinn Fein in meltdown would b a problem as they currently represent the only effective force in Irish Republican politics. Lets face it, if we're talking about the free state here, they are the only republican party in leinster house and the only party to stand for election in each of Ireland's 32 counties.
How does all of that mean that SF in meltdown would be a problem?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: pintsofguinness on January 18, 2010, 09:17:55 PM
a lot of shinners walk around thinking the run the place, I'd love to see them taken down a peg or two
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 18, 2010, 09:24:03 PM
How would it not be a problem? No Republican party in leinster house or standing in all 32 counties would mean a savage blow to those of us who aspire to a united Ireland.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: camloughlad on January 18, 2010, 09:27:20 PM
a lot of shinners walk around thinking the run the place, I'd love to see them taken down a peg or two
how do ya work that out
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 18, 2010, 09:28:39 PM
Pints, unfortunately partitionists do run the place. Therefor is it not they who should b taken down a peg or two? This thread is about a newspaper article not a thread for whether or not you like SF.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: ardmhachaabu on January 18, 2010, 09:32:56 PM
How would it not be a problem? No Republican party in leinster house or standing in all 32 counties would mean a savage blow to those of us who aspire to a united Ireland.
How do you make that out?  I can't see why it would change anyone's aspirations to a united Ireland (whatever that is)

If you look at it objectively, you could say that they are merely administering British rule in the north in much the same way they said they never would.  See, they always knew that negotiations could only get so much...

Seamus Mallon coined it right, it's "Sunningdale for slow learners" and they have no vision or path to a united Ireland... because at the minute, none exists
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: pintsofguinness on January 18, 2010, 09:35:22 PM
a lot of shinners walk around thinking the run the place, I'd love to see them taken down a peg or two
how do ya work that out
I'm not sure what you mean by that or what you're asking. 

Nally, I'm not talking about the areas of government, I'm talking about Sinn Fein activists at local level (not them all I have to say) going around thinking they own the place.  I wouldnt mind seeing them taking down a peg or two. 
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: mylestheslasher on January 18, 2010, 09:38:10 PM
A lot of you boys are in the North and may not be fully aware of what is happening SF in the south. The honeymoon is over, people want some ideas from SF and are tired of constant blathering about the peace process. Adams has become a liability as he is completely out of touch with what  is going on in the South. O Caolain should have been let me SF's main spokesman for the last general election but instead we got Gerry Adams getting obliterated on national tv debates. SF should be making hay in these times as a left wing party but are not positioned to do so and I fear for them in the south big time.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: ardmhachaabu on January 18, 2010, 09:40:10 PM
A lot of you boys are in the North and may not be fully aware of what is happening SF in the south. The honeymoon is over, people want some ideas from SF and are tired of constant blathering about the peace process. Adams has become a liability as he is completely out of touch with what  is going on in the South. O Caolain should have been let me SF's main spokesman for the last general election but instead we got Gerry Adams getting obliterated on national tv debates. SF should be making hay in these times as a left wing party but are not positioned to do so and I fear for them in the south big time.
Unless something drastically changes I can see them getting wiped out in the next set of elections in the south
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 18, 2010, 10:44:44 PM
I never said it would harm aspirations for a united ireland but it would b a problem for achieving it without republicans having a political party to mandate. And SF still at local level made gains and only had their growth slowed by a huge FG vote which was in protest at FFs handling of the recession. This trend of main opposition parties making gains was repeated around the world mid recession. And pints SF is activist based dont forget. Every party has activists it cud do without, SF no more than others.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: pintsofguinness on January 18, 2010, 11:03:23 PM
I never said it would harm aspirations for a united ireland but it would b a problem for achieving it without republicans having a political party to mandate. And SF still at local level made gains and only had their growth slowed by a huge FG vote which was in protest at FFs handling of the recession. This trend of main opposition parties making gains was repeated around the world mid recession. And pints SF is activist based dont forget. Every party has activists it cud do without, SF no more than others.
Oh they do! I dont know any other party who has the w**kers they have.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on January 18, 2010, 11:25:16 PM
SF the only republican party? In what way is SF more republican than - well, choose any party you like for comparison? And explain any criterion by which you consider the other parties non-republican. Are they all monarchist?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 18, 2010, 11:41:27 PM
Irish Republicans are anti partitionist. How about i take as an example FF which has the the gall to call itself "the republican party". Last year one FF td condemned people from the south as being unpatriotic for spending their money in shops north of the border. At a debate last year in UCD argued in a debate in favour of Ireland rejoining the british commonwealth. They are a party which continually refuses to stand candidates in the 6 counties. I could go on.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on January 18, 2010, 11:47:06 PM
Policy on partition is a woefully narrow definition of republicanism. But even under that definition, in what way is SF less partitionist than FF? I see FF in government on this side of the partition and SF in government on the other side (which I applaud, of course). And the difference is?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Pangurban on January 19, 2010, 12:04:20 AM
They are both Hibernian nationalist parties who have long touch with their Republican roots, so as you say Hardy, their is little real difference
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 19, 2010, 12:36:27 AM
It's the central core of modern Irish Republicanism. And your post makes no sense. The diff is that while FF only run for gov south of the border, SF run for gov on both sides of the border.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Zapatista on January 19, 2010, 07:34:34 AM
A lot of you boys are in the North and may not be fully aware of what is happening SF in the south. The honeymoon is over, people want some ideas from SF and are tired of constant blathering about the peace process. Adams has become a liability as he is completely out of touch with what  is going on in the South. O Caolain should have been let me SF's main spokesman for the last general election but instead we got Gerry Adams getting obliterated on national tv debates. SF should be making hay in these times as a left wing party but are not positioned to do so and I fear for them in the south big time.

I don't think you are aware what is happening SF in the South. That's the sort of spin that's coming from the opening post.

They are a small party in the South and have always been. They've been sitting on about 10% for the last 15 years. SF rarely talk about the peace process re southern politics unless it's relevant. Adams was nowhere to be seen in the last election or during the referendum. You are thinking of 07 when he made the balls of that one TV debate (it turns out none of the other three on the panel had a clue about economics either). The country did take a swing to the left from the centre in the last election. They ended up supporting labour who are one step to the left of centre and went no further (it was more of a shimmy than a swing). SF could move futher to the centre and cash in on this swing but then they would become irrelevant.

Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Declan on January 19, 2010, 07:50:26 AM
Interesting opinion piece in todays Times

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0119/1224262632210.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0119/1224262632210.html)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Zapatista on January 19, 2010, 08:47:04 AM
Interesting opinion piece in todays Times

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0119/1224262632210.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0119/1224262632210.html)

There is no evidence in that article to back up the opinion. SF hae been stale in the South since 99-04. This isn't 'freefall' or 'crisis' or any of the other doomsday buzz words. It's nothing. It's not going back and not going forward. If SF have peaked they are still relevant with 4 TD's and 50 plus cllrs.

Ferris had her best ever election and just missed out on an EU seat. Dotherty will probably win the byelection. Even if he doesn't win it I'd say his vote will increase. Mary Lou McD secured more votes last year in the Euro than she did in 04 when she got elected.

Ferris' and Forde's comments in AP were constructive. They were part of any election review which all partys do and are an important part of any democratic party.There are quotes in the article from Ferris and Forde taken out of context. Both were positive. Forde claimed that his was ignored and this was part of the reason he left. If he had have been listened to the quotes would still be there and they would proably still have been used to back up that opinion anyway.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: ardmhachaabu on January 19, 2010, 08:49:04 AM
I never said it would harm aspirations for a united ireland but it would b a problem for achieving it without republicans having a political party to mandate. And SF still at local level made gains and only had their growth slowed by a huge FG vote which was in protest at FFs handling of the recession. This trend of main opposition parties making gains was repeated around the world mid recession. And pints SF is activist based dont forget. Every party has activists it cud do without, SF no more than others.
With respect, you are not making any sense on this.  SDLP have as many republicans in it as SF do, same with FF in the south.  SF are not the only party which attracts republican support.  SF don't speak for all republicans and never have.

I now fully expect you to come back with more pro SF nonsense, which of course you are entitled to do.  Just don't expect to be allowed to get away with it
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 19, 2010, 10:21:44 AM
If I an entitled to, why then say "don't think you will be allowed" to get away with spouting pro SF "nonsense". Any why come up with points to counter an argument i didn't make. Not once did i suggest that all republicans support SF. However your claim that the SDLP and FF have as many republicans as SF is laughable. It wasn't I who nicknamed the SDLP the stoop down low party. A label it earnt for itself for its willingness to bend the knee to unionism. As for FF, my earlier post covered its partitionism
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Ulick on January 19, 2010, 10:44:26 AM
With respect, you are not making any sense on this.  SDLP have as many republicans in it as SF do, same with FF in the south. 

Eh? How could they if they take an oath to a monarch?  ??? Surely that is the complete antithesis of republicanism i.e. the British monarch is not a citizen and therefore not equal before the law.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on January 19, 2010, 11:11:29 AM
That's well covered - the "empty formula" formula.

Nally Stand - would you not take my hint and get out a dictionary and look up "republican".
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Ulick on January 19, 2010, 11:34:47 AM
Hardy, Nally Stand is correct to include partition in any definition of republicanism as as the complete independence for the country as a sovereign republic is at the core of Irish Republicanism. To their credit SF have never recognised the legitimacy of the border, whereas most other political party not only recognise it but have done little to nothing to try and end it.

Therefore the argument follows that by recognising the legitimacy of the border they are denying the legitimacy an Irish Republic ergo they cannot be Irish Republicans. They could be wishy washy republicans in a DeValera sort of way who are happy to replace the British monarch with the Pope and the landlords with bankers and builders, but not Irish Republicans in the mould of Tone, Emmet, Russell, McCrackan, Duffy, Davis, Meagher, Pearse, Connolly, Breen, O'Malley, O'Donnell, Connolly-O'Brien, McBride, Ryan etc...
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on January 19, 2010, 11:48:14 AM
I was talking about the definition of republicanism. I don't know of any consistent definition of "Irish Republicanism". I think you'll get as many definitions as there are political parties, commentators and self-styled "Republican" splinter groups, so it would be a futile exercise to debate which party is more "Irish Republican" than another, a fall at the first fence being inevitable since agreement on the definition would be unreachable.

But I can't understand how you can claim that SF "have never recognised the legitimacy of the border" when they're administering a regime that's based on the legitimacy of the border. I'm sure they even continue to claim it themselves and even carry on happily believing it by some sort of provo version of the recently discovered phenomenon of mental reservation. But sensible people like you and me are not going to be that silly, are we?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Ulick on January 19, 2010, 12:01:23 PM
I was talking about the definition of republicanism. I don't know of any consistent definition of "Irish Republicanism". I think you'll get as many definitions as there are political parties, commentators and self-styled "Republican" splinter groups, so it would be a futile exercise to debate which party is more "Irish Republican" than another, a fall at the first fence being inevitable since agreement on the definition would be unreachable.

Fair enough, but you were being a tad disingenuous by unhitching 'republicanism' from the tradition of 'Irish Republicanism'. 

But I can't understand how you can claim that SF "have never recognised the legitimacy of the border" when they're administering a regime that's based on the legitimacy of the border. I'm sure they even continue to claim it themselves and even carry on happily believing it by some sort of provo version of the recently discovered phenomenon of mental reservation. But sensible people like you and me are not going to be that silly, are we?

All of the people I mentioned above would have engaged in the same type of administration at some stage and we wouldn't deny that they were all genuine republicans. The point remains that SF have been active in trying to end partition, whether not not they have been successful is a moot point, but I ask were all are the green and white papers on partition from the successive government parties in the south? Where are the proposals to end partition and secure the Republic of the First Dáil?   
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on January 19, 2010, 12:17:30 PM
Not being disingenuous. Just trying to do my bit for clarity in the debate and to remove the confusion between true republicanism and the myriad corruptions of it espoused by various shades of the political spectrum here.

I don't think SF have achieved any more than any other party in the effort to end partition. In fact, it can be argued that their antics over the last 80-odd years have done more to copper fasten the border than anything else.

The single most significant step towards the ending of partition was the Good Friday Agreement. And I think it can safely be said that the most important partition-related elements that facilitated that agreement were the Irish government's removal of Articles 2 and 3 from the constitution, the Brits' abandonment of the constitutional guarantee to unionists and the agreement of both sides to accept the principle of consent.

SF, as I remember it, opposed two of those three proposals.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Ulick on January 19, 2010, 12:34:23 PM
Not being disingenuous. Just trying to do my bit for clarity in the debate and to remove the confusion between true republicanism and the myriad corruptions of it espoused by various shades of the political spectrum here.

I don't think SF have achieved any more than any other party in the effort to end partition. In fact, it can be argued that their antics over the last 80-odd years have done more to copper fasten the border than anything else.

The single most significant step towards the ending of partition was the Good Friday Agreement. And I think it can safely be said that the most important partition-related elements that facilitated that agreement were the Irish government's removal of Articles 2 and 3 from the constitution, the Brits' abandonment of the constitutional guarantee to unionists and the agreement of both sides to accept the principle of consent.

SF, as I remember it, opposed two of those three proposals.

I think we are straying a bit here Hardy and I don't have time to be debating the merits of SF and the GFA. As I understood the initial dispute you were challenging Nally Stand on why he/she feels SF are republican in ways that the other parties are not. I have clarified my interpretation of that in that to me republicanism comes in the context of Irish Republicanism in the tradition of those I have mentioned previously and Irish independence is a central plank in that tradition.

Now if political parties haven't been doing their damnedest to secure that national independence (which incorporates the end of partition) then I don't believe they are republican (big or small r). If you want to ask Nally Stand to refine his definition of republicanism go ahead and I may re-enter the debate when I have more time, but partition should still be a part of that debate whether you believe it to be "woeful" or not. 
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on January 19, 2010, 01:36:44 PM
I'm finished too. Nothing to add.

Just as a matter of interest, since it has been speculated on here, are you sparring partner formerly known as Donagh? It doesn't matter, of course - just idle curiosity on my part.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Evil Genius on January 19, 2010, 03:42:41 PM


I don't think SF have achieved any more than any other party in the effort to end partition. In fact, it can be argued that their antics over the last 80-odd years have done more to copper fasten the border than anything else.

Absolutely. For just as Paisley, with his bigoted bellowing was often (fairly, imo) characterised as the "IRA's Chief Recruitment Officer", then SF/IRA, by their 2,000 murders etc, managed only to reinforce the determination of 1 million Unionists in NI to remain British, to implacable levels.

The single most significant step towards the ending of partition was the Good Friday Agreement.
I haven't the time (or the inclination) to expand further, but imo, the GFA is proving to be the single most important step towards preserving  Partition since WWII (at least).

For as I've said before, the sad fact is that many Unionists are too stupid/fearful to recognise this, whereas many Republicans (SF/IRA effectively) are too dishonest/embarrassed to admit it.

Indeed, as it pleased me to point out at the time of his death, one of the chief Republican proponents of the GFA, Brian Keenan, was born in the UK and died in it. (Joe Cahill the same) And while I have no way of knowing how long I will live, I am more confident than ever that others will be able to make that point about me.

Me and Gerry Adams... :D
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Rossfan on January 19, 2010, 06:33:07 PM
Sinn Feinare the only republican party in leinster house

FF( The Builders/Bankers Party) want a re United Independant Ireland,(without a monarchy) in accordance with the GFA when a majority of 6 Co voters want to end the current link with GB.
FG (once the big farmers and shopkeepers party) want  a re United Independant Ireland,(without a monarchy) in accordance with the GFA when a majority of 6 Co voters want to end the current link with GB.
Labour ( former Union officials party) want a re United Independant Ireland,(without a monarchy) in accordance with the GFA when a majority of 6 Co voters want to end the current link with GB.
Sinn Féin want .......... the same  ::)
So how are they the only republican party in the Dáil ?
I didnt  mention the Greens as they wont exist after 2012  ;D
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: ardmhachaabu on January 19, 2010, 06:40:26 PM
With respect, you are not making any sense on this.  SDLP have as many republicans in it as SF do, same with FF in the south. 

Eh? How could they if they take an oath to a monarch?  ??? Surely that is the complete antithesis of republicanism i.e. the British monarch is not a citizen and therefore not equal before the law.
Don't be so pedantic, you know exactly what I mean  ;)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: ardmhachaabu on January 19, 2010, 06:41:29 PM
If I an entitled to, why then say "don't think you will be allowed" to get away with spouting pro SF "nonsense". Any why come up with points to counter an argument i didn't make. Not once did i suggest that all republicans support SF. However your claim that the SDLP and FF have as many republicans as SF is laughable. It wasn't I who nicknamed the SDLP the stoop down low party. A label it earnt for itself for its willingness to bend the knee to unionism. As for FF, my earlier post covered its partitionism
SF are as partitionist as those other parties, you just don't see it.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: magickingdom on January 19, 2010, 06:44:36 PM
A lot of you boys are in the North and may not be fully aware of what is happening SF in the south. The honeymoon is over, people want some ideas from SF and are tired of constant blathering about the peace process. Adams has become a liability as he is completely out of touch with what  is going on in the South. O Caolain should have been let me SF's main spokesman for the last general election but instead we got Gerry Adams getting obliterated on national tv debates. SF should be making hay in these times as a left wing party but are not positioned to do so and I fear for them in the south big time.

the whole of the sf leadership should go if for no other reason than to make a clean break with the past. when sf lose a european election seat to joe higgins who stands for everything sf stands for except is not sf its time to wake up and get a mirror and ask the hard questions. gerry adams will never recover in the south from the pre election 'debate' (debacle) where his incompetence on the southern economy was breathtaking. btw ff are a republician party
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 19, 2010, 07:16:59 PM
I don't think i have to take past i a red herring argument on defining Irish republicanism. It is generally accepted by the population (just not hardy) that partition is the central part. And if we want to talk about the other "republican" parties, the SDLP takes an oath to the british queen while the southern big two have been tripping over themselves for 3 years to invite this monarch to parade around dublin. One FF cllr in a UCD debate argued for rejoining the british commonwealth. Republican???
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on January 19, 2010, 07:41:05 PM
The commonwealth is full of republics. The British queen regularly visits republics without causing them to revoke their constitutions and become monarchies. Heads of state of our European partners regularly visit Dublin. Why do you fear a visit from the British queen? It's not very republican to be cringing before monarchs.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 19, 2010, 07:49:39 PM
I didn't use the word fear once. I don't think it is appropriate though. She still claims part of Ireland in her kingdom and still has not apologised for awarding medals of bravery to her troops who murdered 14 civil rights protesters in Derry, or apologised for her forces involvement in collusion. That is aside from the argument. I didn't say it would effect the status of the 26 counties as a republic once. While she claims to be queen of any part of Ireland it isn't very republican to invite her here.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on January 19, 2010, 07:53:10 PM
The people of Ireland have accepted her claim by overwhelming democratic majority, which is how it works in republics, so how would it be a token of republicanism to deny it?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 19, 2010, 08:00:56 PM
Read my last message re an apology. Don't forget hardy. A republic is a type of state. Irish Republicanism is a complex political ideology and despite all your denials, if you go outside now and ask 100 people what it's main basis is, i'd safely say over 90 and probably all of them will tell you it is about getting a united Ireland.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on January 19, 2010, 08:18:06 PM
50 million people probably think Westlife is the best band in the world. Are they right?

(Are you saying that if Lizzie apologises for the behaviour of the British army everything will be fine and it's OK with you if she then visits Dublin? Surely not?)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 19, 2010, 08:26:32 PM
I'm not here to suggest circumstances in which she should visit. I'm here to say that the current circumstances don't accomodate it and yet the "republicans" in the dail are crying out for this visit. And opinions on a band do not compare to central definitions of political ideology. I think if you asked 100 people both questions there would be a wide range of answers for favourite band and a consistent answer about what Irish Republicanism is about which is why your argument lacks any real credibility.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on January 19, 2010, 08:39:43 PM
Sorry, I'm confused. You introduced the idea of an apology. You emphasised it in your next post. The apology argument has now disappeared, but the current circumstances are still not right, you say.

I assume it's your other argument that's in play now - that while she claims to be queen of the six counties, etc. it would be un-republican to invite her here? But, as I pointed out, the people of this republic have by ballot accepted her claim to be head of state of those in the North who wish to accept her as such. The people are sovereign in a republic. So how would it be un-republican for the government of this republic to use her claim as a basis for refusing to invite her? They certainly wouldn't be implementing any mandate from the people to that effect.

Not that I give a toss whether she ever visits this country or not. You're the one who introduced the possibility of a visit into a debate about republicanism. I don't see its relevance, that's all.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 19, 2010, 08:49:04 PM
I'm being entirely consistent in my argument. I also notice that you go fact have given up on my argument on what Irish republicanism is. As for her visit, i stand totally by my they that under the current circumstances it is not in the spirit of Irish Republicanism to invite her while she has not apologised and while partitionism exists. If FF are republicans, how to they see such a visit as enhancing the argument for Irish unity?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on January 19, 2010, 09:01:28 PM
Why would a visit have to enhance the argument for Irish unity? Heads of state visit here all the time. Advancing the argument for Irish unity has never been a criterion for whether someone should visit.

What's this obsession with a visit anyway?

(Take that as rhetorical. While this has been great fun, I'm going to enjoy a pint even more).
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: magickingdom on January 19, 2010, 09:07:15 PM
The people of Ireland have accepted her claim by overwhelming democratic majority, which is how it works in republics, so how would it be a token of republicanism to deny it?

now that is what i call bullshit of the highest order, your a smart guy yet thats as dumb a post on a number of levels that i have read on this board. the people of ireland were asked seperate questions by 2, is that how it works for an overwhelming democratic majority? in republics?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 19, 2010, 09:18:44 PM
It came from my point that FF are hardly putting much energy into Irish unity if they are encouraging Irish people to greet liz and fly little union jacks in Dublin. This discussion came about by comparing the Irish Republican credentials of SF and FF.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 19, 2010, 09:54:08 PM
Incidentally, next month SF will host a full weekend conference in london at trade union congress on the theme of Irish unity. It will b addressed by british MPs, Trade union leaders, unionist MLAs, journalists, & a former london mayor for example. It aims to discuss what form a 32 county republic would take & to persuade unionists and people of influence in Britain of the advantages that a united Ireland would bring. I wonder what the other "republican" parties have planned for Feb to advance Irish unity?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: ardmhachaabu on January 19, 2010, 09:56:14 PM
The only thing SF are engaging in is one big bluff.

There will be no united Ireland in any of our lifetimes
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: mylestheslasher on January 19, 2010, 10:13:12 PM
Sinn Feinare the only republican party in leinster house

FF( The Builders/Bankers Party) want a re United Independant Ireland,(without a monarchy) in accordance with the GFA when a majority of 6 Co voters want to end the current link with GB.
FG (once the big farmers and shopkeepers party) want  a re United Independant Ireland,(without a monarchy) in accordance with the GFA when a majority of 6 Co voters want to end the current link with GB.
Labour ( former Union officials party) want a re United Independant Ireland,(without a monarchy) in accordance with the GFA when a majority of 6 Co voters want to end the current link with GB.
Sinn Féin want .......... the same  ::)
So how are they the only republican party in the Dáil ?
I didnt  mention the Greens as they wont exist after 2012  ;D

Listen Rossfan, I am openly critical of SF on a number of points even though I was once a member but to suggest that FF, FG and the rest are republican parties or as republican as SF is a joke (For Hardy, I am using the term republican as the vast majority of people of this island use it, incorrectly, which states republican = united Ireland). All we get from FF, FG is some aspiration to have a united Ireland buried in the back pages of their constitution. What efforts have they ever made to reunite Ireland, to convince unionists of the merits of united ireland, they have no plan whatsoever, no green paper no nothing. At least SF have it at the top of their "to do" list. SF's problem is they have nothing of merit to say on anything else except bland rhetoric with no basis and until they come up with something of substance they will never dig any votes out of the critical middle classes with a left leaning.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: camloughlad on January 20, 2010, 12:08:49 AM
a lot of shinners walk around thinking the run the place, I'd love to see them taken down a peg or two
how do ya work that out
I'm not sure what you mean by that or what you're asking. 

Nally, I'm not talking about the areas of government, I'm talking about Sinn Fein activists at local level (not them all I have to say) going around thinking they own the place.  I wouldnt mind seeing them taking down a peg or two.
i love the way you say you would like to see them take down a peg or two your not man enough to do it yourself.wat areas would you be talking about
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: pintsofguinness on January 20, 2010, 12:12:53 AM
a lot of shinners walk around thinking the run the place, I'd love to see them taken down a peg or two
how do ya work that out
I'm not sure what you mean by that or what you're asking. 

Nally, I'm not talking about the areas of government, I'm talking about Sinn Fein activists at local level (not them all I have to say) going around thinking they own the place.  I wouldnt mind seeing them taking down a peg or two.
i love the way you say you would like to see them take down a peg or two your not man enough to do it yourself.wat areas would you be talking about
we could start in areas not a million miles from you.
Not man enough to do it myself? what do you want me to do?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: JohnDenver on January 20, 2010, 10:14:08 AM
The only thing SF are engaging in is one big bluff.

There will be no united Ireland in any of our lifetimes

You are now an honourary member of The SDLP. Congratulations  :P
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on January 20, 2010, 10:48:45 AM
The people of Ireland have accepted her claim by overwhelming democratic majority, which is how it works in republics, so how would it be a token of republicanism to deny it?

now that is what i call bullshit of the highest order, your a smart guy yet thats as dumb a post on a number of levels that i have read on this board. the people of ireland were asked seperate questions by 2, is that how it works for an overwhelming democratic majority? in republics?

So please explain the situation to dumb old me, as I'm clearly incapable of grasping it.

The people of Ireland, North and South, voted overwhelmingly to accept the GFA, which enshrines partition and the constitutional position in the north, including the position of the British monarch, for as long as the people of the six counties want it to be so. How is this to be interpreted as a rejection of the claim of the British monarch to sovereignty over those who define themselves as British?

Simple question. If you have a formula that turns the GFA vote into a rejection of British rule in the North, I'd be interested to see how it works.

You mightn't like the decision we made and some SF people can even convince themselves that they didn't really mean it and haven't accepted partition and if they keep their fingers crossed behind their backs none of it is really happening. That's grand. Whatever works for you.

I'm only pointing out facts. If you dispute them, I look forward to discussing that with you.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on January 20, 2010, 11:26:52 AM
A simple ( ;)) question for you Hardy: for every vote you've cast, have you been in total agreement with everything that that vote connotes, e.g., the whole manifesto?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on January 20, 2010, 11:33:18 AM
I don't understand the relevance of the question. To answer - of course not. But as a democrat and a republican I have accepted the outcome.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on January 20, 2010, 11:48:37 AM
Well, just because someone may have voted for the GFA doesn't necessarily mean that they're fully accepting of what it may represent, it (the GFA) just might have been the best of what was on offer at the time.

In the same way that you haven't been in full agreement with everything that your votes have brought about, it's prefectably reasonable that those republicans who voted for the GFA are not totally happy with everything that that enshrines in current, de facto, law. Your (implicit) assertion, however, that a vote in favour for the GFA was an explicit endorsement of the British queen's continued dominion in the north or of partition itself is disingenuous, at best. It's an inescapable side-effect, at this juncture, and no more than that for some.

Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on January 20, 2010, 12:26:14 PM
I agree with everything you say, FOSB, except your last two sentences. When you vote in a referendum, you don't get to say "I'm voting YES for this bit, but NO for that bit". It's yes or no and the outcome is taken in the round, whether you have reservations about bits of it or not.

So it's absurd to suggest that the outcome of the GFA referendum can't be taken as endorsement of the constitutional staus quo in the North until such time as the majority wish to change it. To illustrate: if it doesn't mean that, then how is the Irish Government, for instance, to determine what it DOES mean? And what mechanism would they use to arrive at the interpretation you suggest that the decision of the people excludes the recognition of Lizzie as head of state for Northern unionists?

So the referendium, contrary to what you say, is precisely an explicit endorsement of the British queen's continued ... and of partition.

We don't have to like it and we can work to change it, but in the meantime we do have to accept it if we're democrats.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on January 20, 2010, 01:11:52 PM
OK Hardy, we're about 50% in agreement, and may have to leave it at that.

To my mind, the GFA as a referendum was deficient at least one option, i.e., British withdrawal, but despite that I'll accept the result of that somewhat restricted referendum. And just because I may have voted to accept the GFA, that doesn't mean that I now ascribe any more legitimacy or validity to the British presence in Ireland than I ever did (zero); no more than I would have ascribed any legitimacy or validity to the British presence in Cork, Meath or elsewhere in the 26 pre-1922.

Regarding a 'Royal' visit to the 26 counties: for any 'republican' to meekly acquiesce to a visit south of the border by a Britsh monarch is a nonsense (IMHO). For two reasons: 1. A monarchy, any monarchy or monarch, is anaethema to anyone who'd call him or herself a republican 2. An Irish republican does not, by definition (i.e., the 1916 Proclamation), accept the legitimacy of the occupation of any part of Ireland by an alien power, least of all she who's considering darkening the Dublin doorstep.


Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on January 20, 2010, 02:05:59 PM
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it myself and I think it's funny that people would work themselves into a lather over a little ould one in a funny hat. I think it would be self-demeaning to appear to be cowering before the British monarchy by saying we don't want her coming here. We've had plenty of other monarchs visiting here and the sky didn't fall in. Treat her the same as any other head of state.

Otherwise, where do you stop? Brown can't come here for EU summits? Stop meetings of the British-Irish council? See how ludicrous it starts to get when people start getting caniptions at the sight of an ugly little granny.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: trileacman on January 20, 2010, 02:47:25 PM
I agree with Hardy, the refusal to allow liz a wee dander up dame street stinks of token Irish republicanism to me. I won't be there to greet her but I won't lose sleep if she is.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lynchbhoy on January 20, 2010, 04:40:19 PM
The people of Ireland have accepted her claim by overwhelming democratic majority, which is how it works in republics, so how would it be a token of republicanism to deny it?

now that is what i call bullshit of the highest order, your a smart guy yet thats as dumb a post on a number of levels that i have read on this board. the people of ireland were asked seperate questions by 2, is that how it works for an overwhelming democratic majority? in republics?

So please explain the situation to dumb old me, as I'm clearly incapable of grasping it.

The people of Ireland, North and South, voted overwhelmingly to accept the GFA, which enshrines partition and the constitutional position in the north, including the position of the British monarch, for as long as the people of the six counties want it to be so. How is this to be interpreted as a rejection of the claim of the British monarch to sovereignty over those who define themselves as British?

Simple question. If you have a formula that turns the GFA vote into a rejection of British rule in the North, I'd be interested to see how it works.

You mightn't like the decision we made and some SF people can even convince themselves that they didn't really mean it and haven't accepted partition and if they keep their fingers crossed behind their backs none of it is really happening. That's grand. Whatever works for you.

I'm only pointing out facts. If you dispute them, I look forward to discussing that with you.
people that I know of voted to try to end fighting etc and saw the GFA and referrendum as a means to expedite the re-unification of Ireland. as the partition wasnt going to be touched and articles 2 and 3 in the constitution meant nothing in reality - we were all happy to vote in the positive fashion - with only the headcases voting no (but they had their own reasons obv).
while some people try to pretend that GFA has meant the partition will forever remain, we all realise that the only things stopping re-unification are the majority vote wishing for this (I'd say north AND south). Then finally the whole question of economics - that includes not only the capacity for our Gov to asimilate the 6 counties back, but the wages of the people, the health service, the dole and social benefits etc all need to be resolved - and this takes a big wad of cash. Some of which will be gained from Brit gov, but we need a prosperous local econemy before this is viable !
apart from that britain would hand it back in the morning !
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lynchbhoy on January 20, 2010, 04:41:20 PM
btw  - the poor oul queen has done nothing wrong or bad - shes just a figurehead.
Let her visit, its daft begrudgery to oppose this !
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on January 20, 2010, 06:56:43 PM
No worries lads, sure I'll organise little union jacks for you all to wave at the supreme symbol of empire, Frau Windsor, as she perambulates up and down O'Connell St, just like the Dubs did with her predecessor Victoria in 1900  :P
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: ardmhachaabu on January 20, 2010, 06:58:47 PM
To my mind, the GFA as a referendum was deficient at least one option, i.e., British withdrawal, but despite that I'll accept the result of that somewhat restricted referendum. And just because I may have voted to accept the GFA, that doesn't mean that I now ascribe any more legitimacy or validity to the British presence in Ireland than I ever did (zero); no more than I would have ascribed any legitimacy or validity to the British presence in Cork, Meath or elsewhere in the 26 pre-1922.

Regarding a 'Royal' visit to the 26 counties: for any 'republican' to meekly acquiesce to a visit south of the border by a Britsh monarch is a nonsense (IMHO). For two reasons: 1. A monarchy, any monarchy or monarch, is anaethema to anyone who'd call him or herself a republican 2. An Irish republican does not, by definition (i.e., the 1916 Proclamation), accept the legitimacy of the occupation of any part of Ireland by an alien power, least of all she who's considering darkening the Dublin doorstep.
FoSB, you are a smart man in my estimations.  That's why I don't understand how you can say this about the GFA, it was what it was, simply a referendum on the agreement the politicians came to that Good Friday.  Neither British withdrawal nor a united Ireland was on the cards yet the GFA is now being implemented, slowly but surely.  There was pain and there was gain on all sides while the bigger issues were fogged over... and so it will remain for the forseeable future.  I can't see dissidents being a threat to the established and flawed administration at Stormont.  I too would like a united Ireland, I don't know about a 32 county socialist republic though.  I don't think it's achievable and even if it was, how would it survive on the edge of western Europe isolated on its own? 

Republicans need to come to terms with the modern age, new thinking is needed as global Capitalism is the only show in town as far as economic realities go.  That doesn't mean I am a right-winger, I certainly am not, I am just being realistic about political and economic issues.  British withdrawal, I assume you mean soldiers yet this terminology alienates many unionists who see themselves as the British presence in Ireland.  Wasn't it Connolly who said that you could remove the English flag from Dublin Castle but if you left the same economic systems in place that Britain would still control us through the same institutions? :)

And seriously, Hardy is right, a visit from the British Queen to any part of the island should be allowed to go ahead unhindered.  Who cares about her from the nationalist community? 
Not too many nationalists have turned out for her visits in the north.  It would be interesting to see how many people would turn out to see her in the south  ;)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: pintsofguinness on January 20, 2010, 07:03:52 PM
The only thing the GFA referendum demonstrates is that people preferred the GFA to more violence.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 20, 2010, 07:36:21 PM
Firstly Hardy, while a few somehow agree that she should b allowed to visit (on invitation from FF) you have once again come out with a claim that makes the mind boggle. How would not inviting her be self-demeaning but spending tax payers money (however little) and having people wave little union jacks and bowing before this little old woman not self-demeaning? And Lynchbhoy, if she has done nothing wrong, does this mean her honouring of the individual bloody sunday soldiers was right?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on January 20, 2010, 07:38:14 PM
Flattery will get you nowhere ardmhachaabu  ;)

I was merely demonstrating with that (British withdrawal) remark that the GFA referendum was nothing like exhaustive and therefore no definitive conclusions could be fairly drawn from a vote one way or the other in it. That's not to say that I don't consider a reunited Ireland a plausible, feasible and legitimate aspiration, but I'm aware of the mechanics and realities that currently prevail.

I'm not convinced about 'Global Capitalism' being the only show in town: it hasn't exactly covered itself (or anything else, apart from the very few) in glory over the last few years, and who's to say that there isn't another cataclysmic capitalistic catastrophe around the corner, only this time where there won't be enough money left in the public purses to prevent financial meltdown? What then for 'Global Capitalism'?

And it doesn't matter what cuddly and innocuous words (like 'little', or 'oul', etc.) are bandied about concerning Mrs Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, she's still a supreme (hostile) power  ;)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: magickingdom on January 20, 2010, 07:44:32 PM
The people of Ireland have accepted her claim by overwhelming democratic majority, which is how it works in republics, so how would it be a token of republicanism to deny it?

now that is what i call bullshit of the highest order, your a smart guy yet thats as dumb a post on a number of levels that i have read on this board. the people of ireland were asked seperate questions by 2, is that how it works for an overwhelming democratic majority? in republics?

So please explain the situation to dumb old me, as I'm clearly incapable of grasping it.

The people of Ireland, North and South, voted overwhelmingly to accept the GFA, which enshrines partition and the constitutional position in the north, including the position of the British monarch, for as long as the people of the six counties want it to be so. How is this to be interpreted as a rejection of the claim of the British monarch to sovereignty over those who define themselves as British?

Simple question. If you have a formula that turns the GFA vote into a rejection of British rule in the North, I'd be interested to see how it works.

You mightn't like the decision we made and some SF people can even convince themselves that they didn't really mean it and haven't accepted partition and if they keep their fingers crossed behind their backs none of it is really happening. That's grand. Whatever works for you.

I'm only pointing out facts. If you dispute them, I look forward to discussing that with you.

re read your original post that i rejected, it never happened. i note in your second post you say the people of ireland north and south, which is of course two different referenda and a complete different outcome to what you said. i voted for the gfa and have never voted sf so not quite sure what you mean by whatever works for you. i would have no bother with the queen coming here either. your only pointing out facts??
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: ardmhachaabu on January 20, 2010, 08:05:39 PM
FoSB, I accept the GFA wasn't exhaustive but to be fair about it, it could never have covered the bigger issues.  It will take 50 years before they appear on any table and even at that, they are likely to be fudged again even then

I know what you are saying about global Capitalism too and in many ways, that's how capitalism as an economic system works.  There will always be peaks and troughs.   I would be the first to say it's not the most equitable system and that ideally, we could look for somethng else to counter it succesfully and also bring us through a smooth transition but reality bites.  I can't see how anything else could work, I think capitalism is engrained in the world today and that most societies in the world are geared around it.  I am not sure if anything else could ever overtake it globally at this stage in the game

Mrs Saxe-Coburg-Gotha  :D

Never let it be forgotten either!  ;D
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on January 20, 2010, 08:14:28 PM
Sorry, magickingdom, I don't understand any of that. You seem to be angry with me. I don't know why. If you have a problem with something I said or if you want me to clarify any point I made, let me know what it is and I'll do what I can.

Nally Stand, you're being a bit melodramatic about the potential awful consequences of a visit by the queen of the UK, should it ever happen. Who would be bowing to her? Why would anyone in this republic do that? Who would be waving union jacks? Why would anyone in this republic do that? For one thing, I'm pretty sure no politician in this republic would be so politically naive as to provide such a photo opportunity.

If it's ordinary people bowing or waving you're worried about, don't be fretting. I don't think it would happen. But, even if it did, what business of yours or mine would it be? It's a free country and if that was the worst consequence of a visit by the British head of state, I'm sure we'd all get over it in no time.

By the way, our president has visited the queen of the UK. Do you disapprove? (For the record, she didn't bow and no union jack waving took place).

Finally, if you have the time, what is your threshold of tolerance on official contacts, links and meetings between representatives of this country and the UK (our partners in the EU)? Where do you draw the line?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 20, 2010, 08:30:47 PM
It may not have been a republic in 1916 when half of Dublin flew the union jack in response to the Rising - the flags still flew. You haven't answered my question as to how a tax payer funded reception for her would be more self-demeaning than not inviting her? And your the first Irish "republican" ive heard say Ireland is a free country. Not yet hardy. Maybe when it is I would b happier for a british monarch to walk around dublin. As for contacts with the Uk, if it is of tangible benefit, i'm all for it.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 20, 2010, 08:33:54 PM
P.S. As for your photo op remark. If they aren't foolish enough to provide such an opportunity and be seen as ass licking, how come they still happily fill news column inches to talk about how big an honour it would be to have this lovely little woman visit us?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on January 20, 2010, 08:46:16 PM
You haven't answered my question as to how a tax payer funded reception for her would be more self-demeaning than not inviting her?

Sorry, I didn't know you meant it as a serious question. Don't you see that we would be
demeaning ourselves if we were perceived to be so cringing and cowering that our policy on relations with fellow member states of the EU can be dictated by our terror of a monarch. We are a sovereign republic. We've hosted heads of state from all corners of the world, looked them in the eye and treated them with official courtesy and hospitality. Likewise the queen of the UK has visited all sorts of countries. Do you want us to be the only one in the world to fear we'd be unable  to cope with a visit from that little woman? Are you seriously proposing this as an element of our foreign policy?

Quote
And your the first Irish "republican" ive heard say Ireland is a free country. Not yet hardy.

Jesus! What's happened? Have we been enslaved again behind our backs? In what way are you unfree? What freedoms are you denied and who is denying them? We can't have that and we'll sort it out pretty quick if you let us know.

Quote
P.S. As for your photo op remark. If they aren't foolish enough to provide such an opportunity and be seen as ass licking, how come they still happily fill news column inches to talk about how big an honour it would be to have this lovely little woman visit us?

Who said that?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 20, 2010, 09:40:56 PM
It's possible to answer without being continually smug and sarcastic. And i never said we couldn't cope i said it wouldn't b appropriate. You're an awful man for putting words in my mouth. As for freedom i don't regard a partitioned Ireland as a free Ireland. Something I will never apologise for. As for what freedoms how about the freedom to have my taxes paid to the Irish Government, freedom to vote for Irish presidents, freedom from the fear of british gov and her majestys forces collusion should the..
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 20, 2010, 09:48:26 PM
..Peace process fall apart. I could go on. And comparing her to other head of states to have visited is a bit pointless. None of ever claimed to reign over Irish people. And they also are not part of a sectarian charter. Last year a canadian girl was forced to change from her Catholic faith so she could marry into the extended british royal family.  As for who spoke about the honour it would be try bertie& dermot ahern (whom the "republican party" call their foreign minister in dealings with the 6 counties)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Zapatista on January 20, 2010, 11:10:30 PM
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it myself and I think it's funny that people would work themselves into a lather over a little ould one in a funny hat. I think it would be self-demeaning to appear to be cowering before the British monarchy by saying we don't want her coming here. We've had plenty of other monarchs visiting here and the sky didn't fall in. Treat her the same as any other head of state.

Otherwise, where do you stop? Brown can't come here for EU summits? Stop meetings of the British-Irish council? See how ludicrous it starts to get when people start getting caniptions at the sight of an ugly little granny.

Now I see why this thread has reached six pages. You are debating two different things.

References to little old granny's and funny hats are at odds references to unapologetic Morarchs and leaders of a colonial power. One of which many Irish people are victims.

It's like Hardy saying it's only a little red button what harm can it possible do? While FOS is saying it's a nuclear warhead and pressing the button will release it only for hardy to follow up by pointing out that he doesn't lose sleep of little red buttons.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lynchbhoy on January 20, 2010, 11:45:27 PM
And Lynchbhoy, if she has done nothing wrong, does this mean her honouring of the individual bloody sunday soldiers was right?
come off it - it's not as if she hand picks those out to receive awards !!
It's all done for her ... Shed 'honour'  Fred west if they paraded him up in front of her for a knighthood!
We waste taxpayers money on hosting bigger Idiots than the queen so she's not unique there and
I don't recall her doing much against us !!
She's a politically powerless figurehead ! Fecks sake man !!
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Zapatista on January 21, 2010, 12:01:45 AM
She's a politically powerless figurehead ! Fecks sake man !!

Maybe as a person but as a figure i'm not so sure. It wasn't that long ago the Iconic figure of the queen was used to bring the north the the verge of civil war with marches across the north in particular the Garvaghey Rd.

If she wants to come to Ireland with a camera and a street map she's more than welcome. I wouldn't protest against a visit from her in office but I wouldn't agree with it.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 21, 2010, 12:33:54 AM
Well lynchbhoy do you reckon the families of those killed feel the same? She remains the figurehead and symbol of a government which has caused so much pain in this country which has left many people still feeling a very raw hurt today.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lynchbhoy on January 21, 2010, 10:04:21 AM
Well lynchbhoy do you reckon the families of those killed feel the same? She remains the figurehead and symbol of a government which has caused so much pain in this country which has left many people still feeling a very raw hurt today.
I cant speak for those other families but I couldnt see why they wouldnt.
Obv you disagree so I suspect I am still in the minority - but the queen while a figurehead, was not the cause of any problems. She would hardly have been aware of what was going on outside her palace gates among the commoners !!

I would say to you (and Zap) that in this day and age, an ever increasing amount of people are against a monarchy in England - that a lot of people ridicule and laugh at the royal family. The queen is becomming a bit of a joke - with recessionary times etc and I dont believe its a huge coincidence that the royal family have been out of the papers for most of the downturn !
So having her lauded by loyalists/unionists would be somewhat amusing given her perception/standing in England/Scotland and wales !

As we are on the road to re-unification, people must get over what was once part and parcel of the landscape.
The queen is no longer a rallying figure for the unionist/loyalists- but a near comic token figurehead, the sash is an anthem of a dying statelet with a nice tune - nothing more.

We no longer have to worry about our way of life under the apartheid type regieme any more - lets try to move on as we will have to all integrate in the not too distant future under the one Irish flag!
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Trevor Hill on January 21, 2010, 10:45:32 AM
Well lynchbhoy do you reckon the families of those killed feel the same? She remains the figurehead and symbol of a government which has caused so much pain in this country which has left many people still feeling a very raw hurt today.

Thankfully most of us have been able to leave the past where it belongs. I doubt you would remember much of the troubles, you dont seem that old.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 21, 2010, 10:58:16 AM
Firstly, Trevor if you don't agree with my arguments, how about discussing them rather than patronisingly accusing me of being to young to know what i'm talking about? I remember far too much of the troubles and my own family and neighbours have been affected directly in ways i won't be going into on this board. And Lynchbhoy, can't you accept that whether you think it is understandable or not, many people have valid reasons to feel uncomfortable at such a visit?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Trevor Hill on January 21, 2010, 11:08:41 AM
Not meant to be patronising, but you come across as a 14 year old with a chip on his shoulder. Maybe if you could actually come up with a reason against a visit by the Queen, instead of just complaining about the past. The troubles had an effect on us all, but thankfully most of us aren't stuck in a timewarp. We often accuse our protestant neighbours of living in the late seventeenth century, that 1690 to you, when in fact some of our nationalist friends still think its 1916/1969 (delete as appropriate). I am sure the Queen is all to aware of what went on in this country, much of it in her name, but thankfully she is able to put the past behind her. If she wants to come to Ireland on a visit then Ireland should be mature enough to welcome her and remember she is your head of state, wether you like it or not.
If like many in this country you chose to live in the past then you should remember people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: JohnDenver on January 21, 2010, 11:28:07 AM
Not meant to be patronising, but you come across as a 14 year old with a chip on his shoulder. Maybe if you could actually come up with a reason against a visit by the Queen, instead of just complaining about the past. The troubles had an effect on us all, but thankfully most of us aren't stuck in a timewarp. We often accuse our protestant neighbours of living in the late seventeenth century, that 1690 to you, when in fact some of our nationalist friends still think its 1916/1969 (delete as appropriate). I am sure the Queen is all to aware of what went on in this country, much of it in her name, but thankfully she is able to put the past behind her. If she wants to come to Ireland on a visit then Ireland should be mature enough to welcome her and remember she is your head of state, wether you like it or not.
If like many in this country you chose to live in the past then you should remember people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

You make sure and get your butchers apron nicely washed and ironed for that day anyway  :P
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 21, 2010, 11:31:42 AM
I think i'm wasting my time debating this with you and have no intention of continuing to do so. There's no point in telling me you're not being patronising but then proceeding to tell me I sound 14 years old and then inform unintelligent little old (i mean young) me what your "seventeenth century" reference meant. There's a real arrogance about someone who feels that anyone who disagrees with him clearly is too young to understand.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lynchbhoy on January 21, 2010, 11:48:12 AM
Firstly, Trevor if you don't agree with my arguments, how about discussing them rather than patronisingly accusing me of being to young to know what i'm talking about? I remember far too much of the troubles and my own family and neighbours have been affected directly in ways i won't be going into on this board. And Lynchbhoy, can't you accept that whether you think it is understandable or not, many people have valid reasons to feel uncomfortable at such a visit?
thats why I said that I reckoned that I am prob in the minority with my views on this ...

my own family have had plenty to look back on and moan about, but we can do nothing about what has happened. W e wont get any enquiry or retribution, so that phase is over and we are moving on - and most others in time will also.
Time is a great healer as the old cliche goes, and as unionism, loyalism and opponents to a re-unification will find out (though most already know) - money is a great healer too !
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 21, 2010, 11:58:37 AM
I agree that time is a great healer. I just feel that this time has not passed but hopefully by the time Ireland is freed, time will have passed and a visit by a british monarch would be more appropriate. For now, such a visit would only drum up a bitterness and division which would far outweigh any good which would come from it.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on January 21, 2010, 12:04:35 PM
I agree that time is a great healer. I just feel that this time has not passed but hopefully by the time Ireland is freed, time will have passed and a visit by a british monarch would be more appropriate. For now, such a visit would only drum up a bitterness and division which would far outweigh any good which would come from it.

Well it seems you'll be doing your best to see that it does anyway.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 21, 2010, 12:14:22 PM
No hardy. I can only speak for myself and would make a safe guess that i'm not alone. You nor nobody else has the right to tell me or anyone else how I/they should feel about a potential visit, we can only debate it's virtues or lack there of. If such a visit took place I can only speak for myself in saying I would simply boycott it. Others will fight over it and the discussion on this board will be a lot more courteous than the tensions a visit would bring for many people. Anyway i mentioned this royal...
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 21, 2010, 12:20:13 PM
..visit as an example of FF "republicanism" which came out of the original discussion of the thread. I.E. the electoral fortunes of SF. The royal visit topic i brought up was pounced upon by many here but i think nothing new is being said. Time to get back to the actual point of the thread me thinks.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: orangeman on January 22, 2010, 02:56:20 PM
Seems like SF have walked away from Stormont after the talks broke down without agreement.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Zapatista on January 22, 2010, 03:37:31 PM
Seems like SF have walked away from Stormont after the talks broke down without agreement.

Not before time.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: EC Unique on January 22, 2010, 03:39:06 PM
Let the games begin!

Quote
alks between the DUP and Sinn Fein on the devolution of policing and justice powers are over, Sinn Fein have said.

Alex Maskey confirmed that the current round of negotiations had ended. He said the party's meeting in Dublin on Saturday would map the way forward.

However, Mr Maskey added:"Our door remains open."

"They (SF) will decide whether to take the nuclear option of pulling Martin McGuinness out of the coalition," said BBC NI political editor Mark Devenport.

Mr Maskey pointed out that his party leadership had informed the DUP of its decision on Wednesday night.

He was responding to Acting First Minister Arlene Foster who said her party's negotiators had waited at Stormont on Thursday and had no-one to negotiate with.

The DUP and Sinn Fein have been engaged in a war of words on how to progress on transferring the powers to Belfast.

In his blog for the Belfast Media Group, Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams said the "game was up, but not over".

"The failure of the DUP thus far to come up to the plate during the current round of negotiations shouldn't come as any great surprise," he said.

"They want the scrapping of the Parades Commission and progress on the ground - in other words marches through Catholic areas."

He accused the DUP of "looking over their shoulder" at hardline unionist Jim Allister whose TUV party opposes powersharing with Sinn Fein.

It is understood the latest round of discussions concluded on Wednesday.

Mr Maskey said: "There was no question, let me be very clear, Peter Robinson was under no illusion. There was no question of any talks between both of our parties scheduled for yesterday or, indeed, today."

Alliance Party leader David Ford said politicians needed to "grow up and reach an accommodation".

He said there was an urgent need for all parties to work together and that the political process was "sliding towards a crisis".
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Zapatista on January 22, 2010, 03:50:27 PM
Let the games begin!

Quote


However, Mr Maskey added:"Our door remains open."
 

I think it would be a mistake to allow the door to stay open after today. If it does it will look like the DUP are the ones calling the shots. SF need to decide and they need to decide now. The complete failure of London and Dublin is clear. Brown has no bargining power and Cowen couldn't give a f**k.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on January 22, 2010, 03:54:34 PM
RTÉ haven't heard about this yet - at least not up to 3:30 Nuacht.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Zapatista on January 22, 2010, 03:58:50 PM
I love the BBC one. Picture of McGuinness with the caption under 'Martin McGuinness could be removed from Stromont' :D

He should walk from Stormont and remove the rest of them.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: orangeman on January 22, 2010, 05:36:26 PM
Let the games begin!

Quote


However, Mr Maskey added:"Our door remains open."
 

I think it would be a mistake to allow the door to stay open after today. If it does it will look like the DUP are the ones calling the shots. SF need to decide and they need to decide now. The complete failure of London and Dublin is clear. Brown has no bargining power and Cowen couldn't give a f**k.


Let the mind games begin more like !!!


Does anybody really care at this stage ??
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 22, 2010, 09:32:26 PM
With the Iris carry on putting pressure on the DUP from one side, and the TUV from the other, the DUP will be sh1tting a brick at the thought of fresh assembly elections should McGuinness walk. Why else would they suddenly be OK with a voting pact with the UUP? SF have the DUP over a barrel here, if SF quitting the negotiations now doesn't make the DUP take the threat to collapse the assembly seriously, perhaps SF should now call their bluff and collapse it. SF would clean up in fresh elections anyway.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: ardmhachaabu on January 22, 2010, 09:37:50 PM
With the Iris carry on putting pressure on the DUP from one side, and the TUV from the other, the DUP will be sh1tting a brick at the thought of fresh assembly elections should McGuinness walk. Why else would they suddenly be OK with a voting pact with the UUP? SF have the DUP over a barrel here, if SF quitting the negotiations now doesn't make the DUP take the threat to collapse the assembly seriously, perhaps SF should now call their bluff and collapse it. SF would clean up in fresh elections anyway.
Do you mean that partitionist assembly at Stormont?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 22, 2010, 09:56:40 PM
No other one. What do you think? Or do you mean to say SF should sit in the 32 county assembly? It doesn't exist yet so the best they can do is have representatives in the north and south to advance unity. If you have nothing constructive to debate about my post or related posts I'll not waste my time rerunning older arguments from the thread.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: ardmhachaabu on January 22, 2010, 10:04:07 PM
No other one. What do you think? Or do you mean to say SF should sit in the 32 county assembly? It doesn't exist yet so the best they can do is have representatives in the north and south to advance unity. If you have nothing constructive to debate about my post or related posts I'll not waste my time rerunning older arguments from the thread.
I am sure you won't, it hasn't done you much good so far

You have contradicted yourself in this thread, IMO, you are too blinkered to even see that much.  Take the SF blinkers off and have a look at the world around you.  I have given constructive arguments as to why SF are full of sh!t about Irish unity.  You have given the usual SF response and stuck your head in the sand and ignored it

You can't have it both ways, they are either a republican party or a partitionist one - the fact they are sitting in both partitionist parliaments would indicate they now accept partition

In any case, I am done playing with you.  SF lackeys are just no fun these days
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 22, 2010, 10:16:02 PM
You may be done "playing" but at least answer me this in response to your last post. If sitting in both parliaments is partitionist, is it not more partitionist to sit in just one and feel that the other has nothing to do with you (eg. every other party in Ireland)? Or is it that you feel they should sit in neither in order to not be partitionist and if that is the case, what method would they then use to advance the cause of unity?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Zapatista on January 23, 2010, 08:27:00 AM

You can't have it both ways, they are either a republican party or a partitionist one - the fact they are sitting in both partitionist parliaments would indicate they now accept partition

That's a very lazy effort. Can you elaborate?

I'd say SF do accpet partition. I'd actually hope so. Last time I checked the country was partitioned and I'd like to think they noticed it. I'd also say they don't agree to it and are actively trying to unite the country. It would be a little silly to try to unite something if you don't accept it is partitioned.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 23, 2010, 09:16:17 AM
Agree 100% zap. Just hope ardmhacha can honour us with a serious reply to my above questions.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on January 23, 2010, 10:04:06 AM
Or is it that you feel they should sit in neither in order to not be partitionist...
Was that not SF policy until relatively recently? Not that i'm saying it was right.

...and if that is the case, what method would they then use to advance the cause of unity?
Well i'd imagine the majority prefer the current peaceful political means, as the majority always did.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Zapatista on January 23, 2010, 10:18:54 AM
Or is it that you feel they should sit in neither in order to not be partitionist...
Was that not SF policy until relatively recently? Not that i'm saying it was right.



There was no assembley to take a seat in untill relatively recently.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on January 23, 2010, 10:35:18 AM
Or is it that you feel they should sit in neither in order to not be partitionist...
Was that not SF policy until relatively recently? Not that i'm saying it was right.

There was no assembley to take a seat in untill relatively recently.
I was referring primarily to their policy change re Dáil Éireann in 1986. (But didn't their abstentionist policy extend to the old NI Parliament?) Presumably the basis for this abstentionism was that sitting in these would have been partitionist?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 23, 2010, 10:43:26 AM
Firstly 1986, in context of the instability, was not recent. And secondly, your point re. current political means is irrelevant. I asked what method Sinn Fein should use if their current path, according to ardmhaca, is wrong. Sinn Fein ARE trying to achieve a united Ireland by peaceful means. And obviously it's what the majority always wanted. That however does not mean it was always realistically possible, as it now is.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on January 23, 2010, 11:04:29 AM
Firstly 1986, in context of the instability, was not recent.
But how was the policy of abstentionism appropriate in 1985 and not in 1986? Was 1986 that much more stable that 1985?


Basically i'm in agreement with you on two main points. Sinn Fein should sit in both the Dáil and the Assembly. And the aspiration for a United Ireland should by advanced by exclusively peaceful and political means.

The point is that some of us had worked that out a very long time ago.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Zapatista on January 23, 2010, 11:08:36 AM
I was referring primarily to their policy change re Dáil Éireann in 1986. (But didn't their abstentionist policy extend to the old NI Parliament?) Presumably the basis for this abstentionism was that sitting in these would have been partitionist?

That's 25 years ago. Yes that was their policy. I wouldn't really have considered them as a political party back then though. Their candidates were usually prisoners who couldn't take seats anyway such as Bobby Sands MP and Kieran Doherty TD. I think their basis was that they didn't recognise either as legitimate (maybe they still don't?) Rather than them being partitionist they believed the IRA were the legitimate Government of Ireland. None of it is relevant though as SF weren't a political party then they were just spokespersons and support groups for the IRA.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: ardmhachaabu on January 23, 2010, 11:28:33 AM

You can't have it both ways, they are either a republican party or a partitionist one - the fact they are sitting in both partitionist parliaments would indicate they now accept partition

That's a very lazy effort. Can you elaborate?

I'd say SF do accpet partition. I'd actually hope so. Last time I checked the country was partitioned and I'd like to think they noticed it. I'd also say they don't agree to it and are actively trying to unite the country. It would be a little silly to try to unite something if you don't accept it is partitioned.
I remember the Shinners using exactly the same language about partitionist parliaments in the 80's and even early 90s.  It shows how much they have changed that they are now sitting in what is a partitionist parliament, they said they would never do that.  No return to Stormont and all that. 

If you look at it objectively, they have deviated so far from their initial political objectives.  Calling for re-unification, holding meetings to talk about it etc are all very good but it's merely a smokescreen.  They know they can't deliver on a united Ireland and what's more is people in the south look at SF and see that as their only real policy on anything.  They are floundering in politics in the south because they don't have a support base to call on like they do in the north and also because they gloss over the big issues when it comes down to local politics.  People in the south and a growing number of people in the north don't care about unification.  They worry more about putting food on the table and other mundane issues.  Incidentally Zap, I am not against them being in the Dail or Stormont, I think it's practical politics to be involved. 

As an afterthought, I wonder how long it will be until they are nobodies, just like Workers Party/Democratic Left whom they called a partitionist party at the time
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 23, 2010, 11:28:35 AM
1985 and '86 were both reactions to the events of the day. The IRA statement on the canary wharf bomb in '96 referred to how it believed there was a chance in 1994, when it declared permanent ceasefire, for the peace process to begin in earnest. The british government's unwillingness to take it seriously resulted in canary wharf. Clearly as far back as 1986 SF saw potential for a peace process that required they take their seats. History shows that this was almost ten years before britain took it seriously.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 23, 2010, 11:33:35 AM
Oh and ardmhaca, I'm still waiting on a reply to my specific questions to you based on your post I replied with them to.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Zapatista on January 23, 2010, 11:48:16 AM
I remember the Shinners using exactly the same language about partitionist parliaments in the 80's and even early 90s.  It shows how much they have changed that they are now sitting in what is a partitionist parliament, they said they would never do that.  No return to Stormont and all that. 

If you look at it objectively, they have deviated so far from their initial political objectives.  Calling for re-unification, holding meetings to talk about it etc are all very good but it's merely a smokescreen.  They know they can't deliver on a united Ireland and what's more is people in the south look at SF and see that as their only real policy on anything.  They are floundering in politics in the south because they don't have a support base to call on like they do in the north and also because they gloss over the big issues when it comes down to local politics.  People in the south and a growing number of people in the north don't care about unification.  They worry more about putting food on the table and other mundane issues.  Incidentally Zap, I am not against them being in the Dail or Stormont, I think it's practical politics to be involved. 

As an afterthought, I wonder how long it will be until they are nobodies, just like Workers Party/Democratic Left whom they called a partitionist party at the time

I agree that they have done a U-turn on their position re stormont but I honestly don't think the initial policy derived from a politial party. It was an army policy. SF were nobody back then and were considered as a nessasary evil by the IRA. I don't think you can compare SF from the 70s and 80s to SF now anymore than you can compare FF or FG to respective sides and policy during the civil war.

I suppose SF can't win either way if the UI thing is only a smokescreen while voters in the South see the UI thing as SF's only issue. That may be why they are floundering in the south maybe they should just drop the smokescreen. I think the reason they are not successfull in the south is due the lack of a support base and their political opponents are far to powerfull. Electoral politics in the north is relatively new compared to the south. The SF brand has been in the north from the the time catholics started to become politically active in the late 60s early 70s while they have only been relevant to the south since the 80s which is a long time after the other major parties. The are playing catch up. Time will tell if they can do it or not.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 23, 2010, 12:20:35 PM
I have to agree that serious work needs to be done in the south and the first step is getting someone young and intelligent to take leadership in the 26 counties, eg Pearse Doherty. On the smokescreen notion however i completely disagree. Those opposed to SF used to accuse it of not working for a UI via peaceful means. When SF become central to bringing peace and developed a peaceful strategy for a UI it is the same people who now accuse them of not being interested in a UI. It's always been priority no. 1
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on January 23, 2010, 01:04:44 PM
Tough on the poor ould shinners, ain't it?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 23, 2010, 01:20:28 PM
To quote the Guinness Hurling ad's of old, "Nobody said it was going to be easy." Certainly not as easy as standing on the outside and criticise while not feeling the need to offer any ideas on alternative paths to Irish Unity.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Trevor Hill on January 23, 2010, 03:16:32 PM
Sinn Fein are always going to do well in the North, where politics is nothing more than a sectarian head count. Lets be honest, neither Sinn Fein nor the DUP are blessed when it comes to brains or political strategy, but they show us and more importantly the rest of the world where the people of NI are at politically. We may have stopped killing each other, but we are still as entrenched as ever and as a result we have moved away from the moderate SDLP and Ulster Unionists to the political hardliners.
Its slightly different in the South. Policies matter, jobs and the economy are important and this is where Sinn Fein fall short, especially when they let Gerry Adams speak. Adams is out of his depth when you take him away from West Belfast and is a liability for Sinn Fein in the South. But Sinn Fein will not accept this, because Gerry wont accept it. Gerry is Sinn Fein. Until Sinn Fein wake up to themselves and to Gerry then they are going to be in serious decline in the South. They need a younger leadership, they failed with Mary Lou, all that money wasted, but they cannot attract the calibre of candidate that they need because they will not tolerate individuals, they do not want ambitious people. They want sheep.
Sinn Fein will continue to attract voters of our generation in border areas in the South, people in Louth, Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal who remember "The Troubles", but the younger generations simply aren't interested in old men and their war stories. They are losing a lot of ground in Dublin at a time when they should be able to make gains. The South is leaderless, Cowen and FF hanging on until the next election when they should be punished for their handling of the economy and the banking crisis, but Sinn Fein simply don't know what to do and don't have anyone to do it for them. They are safer in the "Union".
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: longrunsthefox on January 23, 2010, 03:21:26 PM
Forrest Gump (1994) - Memorable quotes.... he ran and ran and ran and one day stopped and said, 'I'm pretty tired... I think I'll go home now. ...' 
ditto this debate
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on January 23, 2010, 08:58:59 PM
To quote the Guinness Hurling ad's of old, "Nobody said it was going to be easy." Certainly not as easy as standing on the outside and criticise while not feeling the need to offer any ideas on alternative paths to Irish Unity.
What alternative paths? What exactly are these ideas that SF is offering us?
And have we not all (including SF) agreed the way forward through the Good Friday Agreement (i.e. nothing is changing re a United Ireland until the majority in the 6 counties want it)?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 23, 2010, 10:11:43 PM
You ask "What alternative path?" That is exactly my point. People who are most vocal in opposition to SF's current strategy for unity don't seem to be forthcoming with an alternative idea. And the current path is not, as you suggest, SF giving up. The IRA knew they couldn't defeat britain, they could only aim to force them to the table. That is why we are where we are. SF have now endorsed a strategy where a UI can be achieved peacefully through dismantling the traditional state barriers to it, eg the...
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 23, 2010, 10:16:58 PM
RUC, brit army presence, a Protestant parliament for a Protestant people. They are now in a process of building community relations and are the only party with a unionist outreach branch, which aims to build trust and persuade moderate unionists that a UI is in fact nothing to fear. So I ask you in turn, if you feel that strategy is wrong...what is an alternative one?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on January 24, 2010, 01:41:51 PM
...If she wants to come to Ireland on a visit then Ireland should be mature enough to welcome her and remember she is your head of state, wether you like it or not.

Sorry, just getting around to digesting this tripe now  ;)

You may have a crown on your passport, but I most certainly don't, so the chances of the great accident of birth ever being invoked as my 'head of state' are something lower than zero.

Talking about living in the past -- it seems tergiversating toadery of centuries past is alive and well today!  :P
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Trevor Hill on January 24, 2010, 02:44:59 PM
Unless the border has been redrawn overnight then Strabane or Srath Ban if you wish is also in the UK, which would mean that the Queen is also your head of state. You may not want to accept that, but until the people of NI vote in favour of a  united Ireland then that is the reality of the situation that we all find ourselves in. Ulster is still legally British and has been as long as any of us have been alive.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: SuperMac on January 24, 2010, 06:33:22 PM
Ulster is still legally British and has been as long as any of us have been alive.
Six of Ulster's counties are unfortunately under british occupation, so Ulster is not british  ;)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: pintsofguinness on January 24, 2010, 06:39:24 PM
Unless the border has been redrawn overnight then Strabane or Srath Ban if you wish is also in the UK, which would mean that the Queen is also your head of state. You may not want to accept that, but until the people of NI vote in favour of a  united Ireland then that is the reality of the situation that we all find ourselves in. Ulster is still legally British and has been as long as any of us have been alive.
That's like something you'd hear from the DUP
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Trevor Hill on January 24, 2010, 06:44:38 PM
It is sadly the truth. Many of us may not like it, myself included, but the 6 counties remain British and will do so for the forseable future. Anyone who thinks anything different is living in cloud cuckcoo land.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: SuperMac on January 24, 2010, 06:44:56 PM
On an all Ireland basis SF would be the third largest party in the country, how could that be saying they are on the verge of becoming obsolete.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: SuperMac on January 24, 2010, 06:48:06 PM
It is sadly the truth. Many of us may not like it, myself included, but the 6 counties remain British and will do so for the forseable future. Anyone who thinks anything different is living in cloud cuckcoo land.
So the nationalist population is not going to keep increasing but inexplicablly come to a halt ? Your living in cloud cuckoo land.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: pintsofguinness on January 24, 2010, 06:50:04 PM
It is sadly the truth. Many of us may not like it, myself included, but the 6 counties remain British and will do so for the forseable future. Anyone who thinks anything different is living in cloud cuckcoo land.
get that hard to believe
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on January 24, 2010, 06:56:34 PM
You ask "What alternative path?" That is exactly my point. People who are most vocal in opposition to SF's current strategy for unity don't seem to be forthcoming with an alternative idea.
Where do we need the alternative ideas? We've all signed up to the GFA, SF included - we don't need to go thinking up ideas, we've decided we'll unite when the majority want to.

They are now in a process of building community relations and are the only party with a unionist outreach branch, which aims to build trust and persuade moderate unionists that a UI is in fact nothing to fear.
Maybe other parties don't need an explicit 'unionist outreach branch'. Maybe other parties don't have as far to reach.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Trevor Hill on January 24, 2010, 06:58:34 PM
I am Irish, and like most other northerners I aspire to a united Ireland, but I think a lot of northern nationalists need a severe dose of reality. We are further away from a united Ireland than ever before. The GFA has seen to that. This idea that there will be a handover in 2016 is absolute nonsense. It simply will not happen. While Britain may have no strategic interest in the north, it still has the best part of a million unionists to think about. You also have to realise that the unionist MPs are going to have a large bearing on the next parliament, the Conservatives have already realised that and are arranging pacts as we speak.
In my opinion we will not see a united Ireland in our lifetime.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: orangeman on January 24, 2010, 07:05:12 PM
I am Irish, and like most other northerners I aspire to a united Ireland, but I think a lot of northern nationalists need a severe dose of reality. We are further away from a united Ireland than ever before. The GFA has seen to that. This idea that there will be a handover in 2016 is absolute nonsense. It simply will not happen. While Britain may have no strategic interest in the north, it still has the best part of a million unionists to think about. You also have to realise that the unionist MPs are going to have a large bearing on the next parliament, the Conservatives have already realised that and are arranging pacts as we speak.
In my opinion we will not see a united Ireland in our lifetime.

Couldn't argue a lot with that other than to add as I've done before is that I could see a fair few nationalists not turning out to vote in a referendum about the border cos they're happy enough where they're at currently and can't see joining up with Dublin as having too many plus points.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Trevor Hill on January 24, 2010, 07:23:46 PM
It is sadly the truth. Many of us may not like it, myself included, but the 6 counties remain British and will do so for the foreseeable future. Anyone who thinks anything different is living in cloud cuckoo land.
So the nationalist population is not going to keep increasing but inexplicablly come to a halt ? Your living in cloud cuckoo land.

Thinking like that is part of the problem. We simply cannot out breed them. We ve had the best part of a century to do so, but haven't managed it yet. Even if we did mange to get a majority, what do we do with what is still going to be a sizeable minority. We cannot send the planters back.

Couldn't argue a lot with that other than to add as I've done before is that I could see a fair few nationalists not turning out to vote in a referendum about the border cos they're happy enough where they're at currently and can't see joining up with Dublin as having too many plus points.

I actually think that we would turn out in droves if there was ever to be such a referendum. I haven't voted in years, but I would definitely vote for that.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: longrunsthefox on January 24, 2010, 07:28:48 PM
Chatting to a fellow this week who votes SF. He reckons we are aren't in effect under British rule now and happy can express his Irishness. To me our expression of Irishness is a right we should have had all along. The rest re-British rule is an as good as it gets attitude... 'sure it'll do rightly' which a lot of nationalists have now. 
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Zapatista on January 24, 2010, 07:29:34 PM
Forrest Gump (1994) - Memorable quotes.... he ran and ran and ran and one day stopped and said, 'I'm pretty tired... I think I'll go home now. ...' 
ditto this debate
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: longrunsthefox on January 24, 2010, 07:30:22 PM
Forrest Gump (1994) - Memorable quotes.... he ran and ran and ran and one day stopped and said, 'I'm pretty tired... I think I'll go home now. ...' 
ditto this debate

Whatutryingtosayman?   
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Zapatista on January 24, 2010, 07:36:37 PM
ditto
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 24, 2010, 11:02:07 PM
Maguire, once again you raise my exact point about alternative strategies. A lot of the crap being spouted on this board is people criticing SF's method of achieving unity and being somehow partitionist yet these same people offer no alternative ideas and in fact most admit voting for the agreement, and hence have endorsed the current SF strategy. And as for unionist outreach branch, obviously SF for many unionists have a long way to reach, but they are taking this outreach seriously. Why criticise that?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 24, 2010, 11:17:12 PM
Trevor all I can say is im delighted you were not a nationalist political leader. You probably would have had the same "ah sure what can ya do. We cant have the vote so thats just the way it is" attitude. Nationalists are not apathetic. In the '01 general election the Stoop Down Low Party referred to themselves as "post nationalist," (ie your political philosophy). It was generally accepted as their biggest electoral mistake ever and they took a huge backlash from the nationalist community in the election.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Trevor Hill on January 24, 2010, 11:39:52 PM
Where as your nationalist political leaders made sure we had 25 years of murder and mayhem. 25 years when there was little to no economic investment in the north and what little there was they tried to destroy or extort money from. And after all that they got us the GFA, almost exactly what was on the table in 1974, except that now Ireland has abondoned its constitutional claim to the north.
Keep Ulster Bristish, Vótáil Sinn Féin.  ::)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 25, 2010, 03:30:59 AM
And there we have the typical anti republican view that it was all the big bad republicans who  caused all the trouble. There were two sides. In 1974 the brit war machine was in full swing. As i already pointed out, there was no stability then, the IRA felt it was 1994 before it believed the british govn was prepared to talk and yet Canary wharf in 1996 was the result of the british govn not taking republican attempts to talk seriously. As for your last comment, who should we vote for to gain unity then?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: bonaduche on January 30, 2010, 06:36:20 PM
And there we have the typical anti republican view that it was all the big bad republicans who  caused all the trouble. There were two sides. In 1974 the brit war machine was in full swing. As i already pointed out, there was no stability then, the IRA felt it was 1994 before it believed the british govn was prepared to talk and yet Canary wharf in 1996 was the result of the british govn not taking republican attempts to talk seriously. As for your last comment, who should we vote for to gain unity then?
its strange to read some of the comments of people whohighlight they  dont have crowns on their passports and express their irishness withprife by  condemingfellow  irish people as toadyies for inviting a queen to visit their country....    then if you go back on their posts you can discover their double life as english soccer supporters who referre to their teams as our boys       who is the wanna be huns here. the shinners have done fantastic to bring our country to the position it is in at present and will progress and make this the greatest country in the world.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Farrandeelin on January 30, 2010, 06:43:04 PM
Ah, yes bring in the English soccer teams reference once again why not... ::)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: longrunsthefox on January 30, 2010, 06:45:49 PM
And there we have the typical anti republican view that it was all the big bad republicans who  caused all the trouble. There were two sides. In 1974 the brit war machine was in full swing. As i already pointed out, there was no stability then, the IRA felt it was 1994 before it believed the british govn was prepared to talk and yet Canary wharf in 1996 was the result of the british govn not taking republican attempts to talk seriously. As for your last comment, who should we vote for to gain unity then?
its strange to read some of the comments of people whohighlight they  dont have crowns on their passports and express their irishness withprife by  condemingfellow  irish people as toadyies for inviting a queen to visit their country....    then if you go back on their posts you can discover their double life as english soccer supporters who referre to their teams as our boys       who is the wanna be huns here. the shinners have done fantastic to bring our country to the position it is in at present and will progress and make this the greatest country in the world.

Are you Stephen Nolan  ???   the greatest show in the country  ::)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Saffrongael on August 09, 2012, 10:20:47 PM
Were is the "were are Sinn Fein" thread - has it been removed? The following story published at the weekend in the Sunday Life hasn't had much airtime, someone being protected ? Could be very damaging for Sinn Fein and maybe a wee yank of the leash from the British.


FIVE CHARGED WITH IRA MEMBERSHIP


By Ciaran Barnes

Sunday life 05 August 2012

Five people including Sinn Fein activists in Belfast have been charged with belonging to the Provisional IRA more than a decade ago. For legal reasons none of the five can be named at this stage.
The accused - three men and two women,were scheduled to appear at the city's magistrates court last Thursay.But they were excused from standing in the dock after their case was adjourned.
During a short hearing the court ordered that "no details pertaining to their identification be published". The five are charged with "belonging to or professing to belong to a proscribed organisation,namely the Provisional IRA".
The Provo membership charges relate to various dates between 1997 and 2000.Two men are further charged with organising,managing and addressing meetings of the IRA.
One of the men faces an additional claim of forcing a woman to co-operate with a Provisional IRA investigation.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Ulick on August 09, 2012, 10:28:38 PM
Why would it be damaging? Surely it's vindication of Gerry A's "I was not in the IRA" stance?

As for Ciaran Barnes - guttersnipe, as his behaviour over the Boston College/Marion Price episode demonstrates. 
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on August 09, 2012, 11:23:32 PM
Some people in SF were in the IRA. Shocker alright there Saffron.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Saffrongael on August 09, 2012, 11:32:17 PM
Some people in SF were in the IRA. Shocker alright there Saffron.

A decade ago ?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on August 10, 2012, 01:47:40 AM
Some people in SF were in the IRA. Shocker alright there Saffron.

A decade ago ?

5 to 8 years before the IRA stood down, according to the article. Again, shocker of a story  ::)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Trout on August 10, 2012, 05:48:51 PM
Some people in SF were in the IRA. Shocker alright there Saffron.

A decade ago ?

5 to 8 years before the IRA surrendered for their 30 pieces in Stormont, according to the article. Again, shocker of a story  ::)

Fixed that for you.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on September 23, 2012, 08:52:21 AM
Were is the "were are Sinn Fein" thread - has it been removed?
That was lawnseed's thread if i'm not mistaken. lawnseed?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on September 23, 2012, 08:55:42 AM
I found this mildly amusing...

Máirtín Ó Muilleoir‏@newbelfast
BBC News - Athletic Stores campaigners can challenge demolition decision http://bbc.in/UyLYTo Good news. Defending built heritage vital!

 
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Tony Baloney on September 23, 2012, 09:30:06 AM
I found this mildly amusing...

Máirtín Ó Muilleoir‏@newbelfast
BBC News - Athletic Stores campaigners can challenge demolition decision http://bbc.in/UyLYTo Good news. Defending built heritage vital!

The term "collective amnesia" was invented for the Sinners!
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on September 23, 2012, 10:24:04 AM
Up again in today's Red C poll.keep up this shite boys it's working
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on September 23, 2012, 10:47:09 AM
Up again in today's Red C poll.keep up this shite boys it's working
The people who though FF made sense now think SF make sense. Although its margin of error stuff.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on September 23, 2012, 11:02:27 AM
Fighting a losing battle Maguire,but keep the faith as you never know people may wake up and listen to you
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Saffrongael on September 23, 2012, 11:09:36 AM
Up again in today's Red C poll.keep up this shite boys it's working

Up 2% in a 1000 people poll, momentous stuff. United Ireland mustn't be far away now.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on September 23, 2012, 11:13:47 AM
Up again in today's Red C poll.keep up this shite boys it's working
The people who though FF made sense now think SF make sense. Although its margin of error stuff.

Well in fairness, surely the election results prove that the people who thought FF made sense now think that FG and Labour make sense.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on September 23, 2012, 11:16:46 AM
Up again in today's Red C poll.keep up this shite boys it's working

Up 2% in a 1000 people poll, momentous stuff. United Ireland mustn't be far away now.

You keep up all your hard work and you will get us there,at what time is the meeting at McArts fort?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on September 23, 2012, 11:21:01 AM
Up again in today's Red C poll.keep up this shite boys it's working
The people who though FF made sense now think SF make sense. Although its margin of error stuff.

Well in fairness, surely the election results prove that the people who thought FF made sense now think that FG and Labour make sense.

Sure Maguire believes his own propaganda,the poll shows as others have done that it's Labour who are dropping and FF staying the same,but that might be too hard for him to understand
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Saffrongael on September 23, 2012, 11:48:10 AM
Up again in today's Red C poll.keep up this shite boys it's working

Up 2% in a 1000 people poll, momentous stuff. United Ireland mustn't be far away now.

You keep up all your hard work and you will get us there,at what time is the meeting at McArts fort?

Sinn Fein are keeping up their hard work with the DUP and the Brits to ensure it never happens.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on September 23, 2012, 11:52:48 AM
Up again in today's Red C poll.keep up this shite boys it's working

Up 2% in a 1000 people poll, momentous stuff. United Ireland mustn't be far away now.

You keep up all your hard work and you will get us there,at what time is the meeting at McArts fort?

Sinn Fein are keeping up their hard work with the DUP and the Brits to ensure it never happens.

That needle stuck again,get over what Sinn Fein are doing and away and free Ireland,think Martin Og has a plan
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on September 23, 2012, 02:07:16 PM
Up again in today's Red C poll.keep up this shite boys it's working
The people who though FF made sense now think SF make sense. Although its margin of error stuff.

Well in fairness, surely the election results prove that the people who thought FF made sense now think that FG and Labour make sense.

Sure Maguire believes his own propaganda,the poll shows as others have done that it's Labour who are dropping and FF staying the same,but that might be too hard for him to understand
Propoganda?

And I was referring to the swing at the general election. But you can apply the same to those who left FF for FG and Labour as well, if you wish.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on September 23, 2012, 02:08:48 PM
Up again in today's Red C poll.keep up this shite boys it's working

Up 2% in a 1000 people poll, momentous stuff. United Ireland mustn't be far away now.
The irony being that they're riding high(er) in the polls by not mentioning the constitutional question - they know the public aren't interested.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Saffrongael on October 11, 2012, 10:59:53 PM
Were is the "were are Sinn Fein" thread - has it been removed? The following story published at the weekend in the Sunday Life hasn't had much airtime, someone being protected ? Could be very damaging for Sinn Fein and maybe a wee yank of the leash from the British.


FIVE CHARGED WITH IRA MEMBERSHIP


By Ciaran Barnes

Sunday life 05 August 2012

Five people including Sinn Fein activists in Belfast have been charged with belonging to the Provisional IRA more than a decade ago. For legal reasons none of the five can be named at this stage.
The accused - three men and two women,were scheduled to appear at the city's magistrates court last Thursay.But they were excused from standing in the dock after their case was adjourned.
During a short hearing the court ordered that "no details pertaining to their identification be published". The five are charged with "belonging to or professing to belong to a proscribed organisation,namely the Provisional IRA".
The Provo membership charges relate to various dates between 1997 and 2000.Two men are further charged with organising,managing and addressing meetings of the IRA.
One of the men faces an additional claim of forcing a woman to co-operate with a Provisional IRA investigation.

Five IRA accused can be named - Judge

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19916749


A judge has lifted a ban on naming five people facing charges of membership of the IRA and other offences from more than a decade ago.

They include Seamus Finucane, a Sinn Fein member and brother of the murdered Belfast solicitor Pat Finucane.

The BBC had challenged the ban.

The BBC cannot reveal full details of the charges in the case - but can reveal the names of those involved after reporting restrictions were lifted.

Mr Finucane, 55, is a member of Sinn Fein and a community worker in west Belfast.

The others include 53-year-old Padraic Wilson, who was the leader of the IRA in the Maze prison in the late 1990s and is currently Sinn Fein's director of international affairs.

Both men are facing charges of IRA membership and arranging, addressing or assisting in the management of an IRA meeting.

Another man, 48-year-old Martin Edward Morris, with an address in London, is also charged with membership of the IRA.

Two Belfast women are also facing charges.

Agnes McCrory, 72, from Dermot Hill Road, and 55-year-old Briege Wright from Glassmullin Gardens, are accused of membership of the IRA, and arranging, addressing or assisting in the management of an IRA meeting.

The two women and Mr Finucane are also charged accused of unlawfully forcing a person who cannot be identified to co-operate with an IRA investigation.

Lifting the restrictions, district judge Fiona Bagnall agreed with the BBC's argument that open justice was a cornerstone of the criminal judicial system.




Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Evil Genius on October 13, 2012, 01:02:34 AM
A lttle titbit which seems to have escaped the attention of the Board's (concerned) Resident Shinners:

19 September 2012

John O'Dowd breached code for ministerial appointments



A man with an enormous feckin' chin - and an even bigger neck

A report has found that Education Minister John O'Dowd breached the code for ministerial appointments.

It relates to appointments to the board of the General Teaching Council.

The commissioner for public appointments, who examined the process, said the code was not complied with "to a substantial degree."

He found a total of seven breaches.
These included no record of the reasons for Mr O'Dowd's selection of three applicants from a shortlist of five.

Another failing concerned the information provided to Mr O'Dowd by the panel that interviewed the applicants.

Six people were interviewed and five of them were deemed suitable for appointment.

However, the commissioner said the applicant summary drawn up for Mr O'Dowd was "limited in content".

As well as breaches of the code, the report said there were five further shortcomings in what is considered best practice.

The commissioner's report said the department should give "urgent consideration" to the findings.

A spokesman for Mr. O'Dowd said "We're Sinn Fein, so we're not capable of Discriminashun, so we're nat, nat even my bigoted Ministerial colleague, Conor Murphy. Or hav' yis all forgat about 800 Years of Oppresshun, hav' yis?

Anyhow, there's a big Ministerial cyar waitin' and we hav' til go before anyone asks who the Driver is, an' how he got the job..."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19638161
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: fitzroyalty on October 13, 2012, 11:50:24 AM
I see someone was on the West Coast Cooler last night.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: SuperMac on October 13, 2012, 01:48:02 PM
John O'Dowd breached code for ministerial appointments

A spokesman for Mr. O'Dowd said "We're Sinn Fein, so we're not capable of Discriminashun, so we're nat, nat even my bigoted Ministerial colleague, Conor Murphy. Or hav' yis all forgat about 800 Years of Oppresshun, hav' yis?

Anyhow, there's a big Ministerial cyar waitin' and we hav' til go before anyone asks who the Driver is, an' how he got the job..."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19638161

What's that EG, trying to promote the Ulster Scots ' language ' yet again :D " An, do knee forgat 'bout the Ulstur Covenantur's who weed 'ave sacreeficed thamselves at thee stake jus' leek thur Scottash ancesturs "  :D Ah yes, the cenotaph hugger strikes again !!!!!
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Evil Genius on October 13, 2012, 03:17:02 PM
John O'Dowd breached code for ministerial appointments

A spokesman for Mr. O'Dowd said "We're Sinn Fein, so we're not capable of Discriminashun, so we're nat, nat even my bigoted Ministerial colleague, Conor Murphy. Or hav' yis all forgat about 800 Years of Oppresshun, hav' yis?

Anyhow, there's a big Ministerial cyar waitin' and we hav' til go before anyone asks who the Driver is, an' how he got the job..."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19638161

What's that EG, trying to promote the Ulster Scots ' language ' yet again :D " An, do knee forgat 'bout the Ulstur Covenantur's who weed 'ave sacreeficed thamselves at thee stake jus' leek thur Scottash ancesturs "  :D Ah yes, the cenotaph hugger strikes again !!!!!
If you've ever read any of my posts on the topic, you'll know that I have no time for all this "Ulster-Scots Language Grant Scam" - it's a load of bollox, imo.

And if you've ever heard O'Dowd, you'll know that however you dub it, that's how our esteemed Education Minister speaks:
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/o-dowd-under-attack-after-grammar-gaffes-1-4201101

P.S. Any comment on how the big-chinned b**tard blithely ignores the Rules when it comes to making Departmental appointments?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Billys Boots on October 13, 2012, 05:11:37 PM
I might have known that Mr. Genius would be around today.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on October 14, 2012, 10:15:50 PM
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2012/1004/1224324835607.html

Clearing Gerry Adams's name

Sir, – I have just read a report (Home News, September 28th) on how my ex-Westminister MP, Gerry Adams is unable to answer charges made by Dolours Price in the Sunday Telegraph on September 23rd  in a court of law – the allegation concerning of bombing, kidnapping and murder – due to his lack of funds.  I for one will not stand as a one-time constituent and see my ex-MP have his good name and commitment to the peace process put in doubt for the lack of funds.

Justice denied to Jean McConville and her family and to many others, must not be denied to Gerry Adams, former  Westminster MP for West Belfast. I will therefore send a cheque for one euro to Adams’s Dáil office and would appeal and urge others interested in the truth to promote democracy and freedom of speech to do the same. Indeed, would perhaps another good citizen call for a fighting fund to help clear Mr Adams’s name and reputation from these charges once and for all? – Yours, etc,

Cllr BRIAN HEADING (SDLP),

Lisburn City Council,

Mount Eagles Avenue,

Lagmore,

Dunmurry, Lisburn.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on October 14, 2012, 10:40:25 PM
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2012/1004/1224324835607.html

Clearing Gerry Adams's name

Sir, – I have just read a report (Home News, September 28th) on how my ex-Westminister MP, Gerry Adams is unable to answer charges made by Dolours Price in the Sunday Telegraph on September 23rd  in a court of law – the allegation concerning of bombing, kidnapping and murder – due to his lack of funds.  I for one will not stand as a one-time constituent and see my ex-MP have his good name and commitment to the peace process put in doubt for the lack of funds.

Justice denied to Jean McConville and her family and to many others, must not be denied to Gerry Adams, former  Westminster MP for West Belfast. I will therefore send a cheque for one euro to Adams’s Dáil office and would appeal and urge others interested in the truth to promote democracy and freedom of speech to do the same. Indeed, would perhaps another good citizen call for a fighting fund to help clear Mr Adams’s name and reputation from these charges once and for all? – Yours, etc,

Cllr BRIAN HEADING (SDLP),

Lisburn City Council,

Mount Eagles Avenue,

Lagmore,

Dunmurry, Lisburn.

last year i was acused of being a tight scrooge my civil and human rights have been devalued and a great injustice has been done.
i'd like to clear my name send me money and i need euros cause the case is in lanzorote next may/june ;D
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on October 17, 2012, 10:16:58 PM
@IpsosMRBI: New opinion poll for the @IrishTimes: FG 31% (-1), FF 21% (+4), SF 20% (-4), Lab 12% (+2), Ind/ Others 14% (-1), Greens 2%(=).

@IpsosMRBI: Opinion Poll: Satisfaction w. leaders E.Kenny 33%(-3), E.Gilmore 23%(-3), M.Martin 28%(-3), G.Adams 29%(-8), E.Ryan 12%(+2).
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on October 17, 2012, 11:13:43 PM
So if there were an election tomorrow, just over a fifth of the population of the 26 counties would vote Fianna Fáil? The mind just boggles. Does Ireland have any hope for the future with such a large amount of utter fcukwits in the electorate?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Orior on October 17, 2012, 11:19:14 PM
So if there were an election tomorrow, just over a fifth of the population of the 26 counties would vote Fianna Fáil? The mind just boggles. Does Ireland have any hope for the future with such a large amount of utter fcukwits in the electorate?

Emmmm.... is that 1/5 or 4/5 are the fcukwits?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on October 22, 2012, 11:03:37 PM
time for a new leader. Gerry isn't doing the business. he has failed to land a single killer blow on either fianna fail or fine gael. both of these parties are the same. they persue the same policies they indulge in cronyism they don't keep any of their election promises and yet Gerry just doesn't seem to be able to pin them down.  i think sinn fein would benefit from a change of leadership with pierce taking over before the next election infact the sooner the better perhaps peadar tobin as deputy
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on October 22, 2012, 11:44:45 PM
time for a new leader. Gerry isn't doing the business. he has failed to land a single killer blow on either fianna fail or fine gael. both of these parties are the same. they persue the same policies they indulge in cronyism they don't keep any of their election promises and yet Gerry just doesn't seem to be able to pin them down.  i think sinn fein would benefit from a change of leadership with pierce taking over before the next election infact the sooner the better perhaps peadar tobin as deputy

Suprised that Sinn Féin can't land a single killer blow.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on October 22, 2012, 11:48:35 PM
time for a new leader. Gerry isn't doing the business. he has failed to land a single killer blow on either fianna fail or fine gael. both of these parties are the same. they persue the same policies they indulge in cronyism they don't keep any of their election promises and yet Gerry just doesn't seem to be able to pin them down.  i think sinn fein would benefit from a change of leadership with pierce taking over before the next election infact the sooner the better perhaps peadar tobin as deputy

Suprised that Sinn Féin can't land a single killer blow.
endas landed a few killer blows around roscommon since he lied about closing the hospitals
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on October 22, 2012, 11:53:55 PM
time for a new leader. Gerry isn't doing the business. he has failed to land a single killer blow on either fianna fail or fine gael. both of these parties are the same. they persue the same policies they indulge in cronyism they don't keep any of their election promises and yet Gerry just doesn't seem to be able to pin them down.  i think sinn fein would benefit from a change of leadership with pierce taking over before the next election infact the sooner the better perhaps peadar tobin as deputy

Suprised that Sinn Féin can't land a single killer blow.
endas landed a few killer blows around roscommon since he lied about closing the hospitals

Good man, you are now regularly spelling the Taoiseach's name correctly.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Evil Genius on October 23, 2012, 01:07:36 AM
time for a new leader. Gerry isn't doing the business
Can't see anyone moving against him - he knows where all the bodies are buried...*

Anyhow, with the "Armed Struggle" [sic] a thing of the past and no sign of a UI anywhere on the horizon, I predict that both he and McGuinness will make plans to step down not too long after they've got Easter 1916 out of the way.

Which will provide the opportunity for the new breed of younger, probably Republic-based successors to take over. Of course, without the kudos/stench (delete as preferred) of the IRA attached to them, the new guys will be free to lead the Party in a new direction, should they choose.

And this is something which someone like me should welcome, not just because it must take us all further away from the misery and evil inflicted upon everyone by the former leadership, but also because it will almost certainly mean SF will become just another political party, pretty much indistinguishable from all the others.

Meanwhile, Adams and McGuinness will have their retirement years to ponder whether it was all worth the 2,000+ deaths their activities caused, before they finally snuff it in a (still) partitioned Ireland...   

I hope I live long enough to see that day myself.





* - And just in case anyone should be in any doubt, I'm being literal, not humourous  >:(
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on October 25, 2012, 12:30:34 PM
  Speech by Declan Kearney at Westminister 24/10/12


 
 
National Reconciliation in Ireland – The Need For Uncomfortable Conversations
(Westminister 24 October 2012)

British colonial interests and successive government policy have been at the root of political conflict in Ireland, and between our countries for centuries.
British government strategy and its threat of ‘immediate and terrible war’ in the period of the 1921 negotiations after the Tan War was the midwife for the Irish Civil War, and the catalyst for partition.
That led to the onset of unionist one party misrule in the North of Ireland for 50 years. The constitutional, political and economic structure of the northern state was the context for over 30 years of war and armed struggle.
Citizens in Ireland today continue to live with the legacy of the civil war and northern unionists and nationalists live with the legacy of partition in all its forms.
Although British state policy towards the north throughout and to the present day has remained intrinsically unionist, several British administrations have made significant contributions alongside the work of many in developing the Irish peace process during the last twenty years.
That peace process is now irreversible. The war is over, and the conditions of conflict have been removed.
Our peace process is widely admired as a template for conflict resolution. But whilst the process is irreversible, we are still not at peace with each other.
The historical experience of the Irish civil war is that the failure to put in place a reconciliation process after its conclusion created massive fault-lines and division which endured for nine decades.
The immediate challenge as our island emerges from its most recent phase of political conflict is to engage on the development of a reconciliation process in the north, and which addresses the trans generational division and hurt created by the civil war and our political conflicts ever since.
In the past republican leaders have travelled here to Britain to negotiate and discuss the detail of frameworks and agreements which have helped to bring about the Irish peace process and to press the case for Irish unity.
Tonight I want to make the case for the imperative of opening up a new phase in our peace process; that is a phase based on reconciliation and healing.
Although the conditions of conflict have been addressed, the legacy of division, hurt and fear has the potential to be passed on to future generations.
Sinn Féin believes that our generation has a responsibility to stop that happening and to do our best to ensure those future generations have the opportunity to grow up in a better society than we did.
There is new ‘heavy lifting’ still to be undertaken in the peace process.
Enormous human hurt was caused during the political conflict. 
Republicans, unionists and Irish and British citizens share a deep collective pain.
Whilst we might all wish it could be otherwise, we cannot undo the past, but neither can we or should we forget.
During her visit to Dublin last year Queen Elizabeth said;
“With the benefit of historical hindsight we can all see things we would wish had been done differently or not at all.”
All reasonable people will agree with that assessment.
But neither should we allow the past to become a barrier to the future.
That is why Sinn Féin believes it is not only possible but essential that we open a new phase in our process, and facilitate dialogue on how all hurts caused can be equally acknowledged, salved, and if possible healed. And to seek to do this in a spirit of shared compassion, generosity towards one another and recognising our common humanity.
We all need to continue the unfinished journey of our peace process, so that future generations are liberated to explore new possibilities, rather than be burdened with legacies for which they carry no responsibility.
Maya Angelou put it well;
“History despite its wrenching pain cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage need not be lived again.”
Applying the sense of that wisdom will not be easy. It can only come about by a collective resolve to do this by trying to better understand each other, and imagine what it is like to walk in one another’s shoes.
I have characterised the process of national reconciliation in Ireland as involving “uncomfortable conversations”.
These need to take place within and between communities in my country, and as part of that the British state needs to reflect and discuss how to address its responsibilities for the adversity and conflict it perpetuated in Ireland, and between Britain and Ireland.
The republican constituency has begun to discuss the need for national reconciliation. I and other republican leaders have said that means being prepared to move outside our own comfort zones, and being prepared to embrace new thinking.
The Sinn Féin leadership have spoken of and then acted on the need for more compromises and initiatives to advance the peace process, and the wider national interest.
Earlier this year Republicans across Ireland had a very uncomfortable conversation among ourselves about whether Martin McGuinness should meet Queen Elizabeth. Many disagreed, but many more agreed with doing so – because it was the right thing to do.
And that is fundamentally what reconciliation must be about, doing the right thing; even when faced with impasse and opposition.
At this time the potential for reconciliation is challenged by a developing status quo supported by some in the north, which perversely provides for acceptable levels of sectarianism division and fear; and, I would add to that, acceptable levels of instability provoked by militarists opposed to the peace process.
The outworking of that is evidenced in a unionist mindset which tolerates the insistence by loyal order band parades to disrespect the rights of Catholics and nationalist communities. And which also normalises an ongoing refusal to share power with republicans in majority unionist councils.
This summer political unionism singularly failed to give leadership and say or do the right things to confront sectarianism and the violence which it provoked.
Instead of going out front and forcefully defending the principles of equality and mutual respect the leadership of political unionism and specifically the DUP caved in to the lowest common denominators of sectarian triumphalism.
The last five years have been a very slow learning curve on equality and respect for the DUP. 
Peter Robinson’s recent outbursts betray a real discomfort in trying to represent both unionists, republicans and nationalists. He needs to stop talking out of both sides of his mouth, and get with the programme. 
He cannot be a latter day James Craig or Basil Brooke, because the Orange State has gone.  He can only sit in OFM/dFM if he shares power properly with republicans.  The Orange Order and Loyalist bands cannot walk wherever they want; the eleven plus isn’t coming back; minorities do have rights; and nationalists in the north are no longer second class citizens.
The DUP leadership needs to get out of its time warp, get into real time, and start doing grown up politics with the rest of us.
Opposition to sectarianism is not a negotiation or an optional choice, it must be a leadership imperative.
The challenge posed by the unresolved parading issue could be resolved by agreement on the core issues of equality and mutual respect if these are taken forward with united political leadership from unionism and republicanism, particularly by Peter Robinson and Martin Mc Guinness. But failure to do so fuel the extremes within each community opposed to the peace process.
None of that should be allowed to frustrate the pursuit of reconciliation.
We don’t need to reinvent the wheel.
The Good Friday Agreement has already enshrined the principles of equality, parity of esteem, mutual respect and political coexistence.  It provides a framework within which to find important common ground, if the political will exists to do so.
The Hillsborough Castle Agreement set out key principles in relation to parades, with which the DUP agreed, based upon local people providing local solutions, mutual respect, and the right of all citizens to live free from sectarian harassment.
Sinn Féin is calling for an all inclusive national discussion on reconciliation leading to the development of a national reconciliation strategy.
Let me tell you how such a road map might take shape.
We believe republican and unionist political leaders need to take the lead in beginning a national discussion on reconciliation.
This should be leadership frontloaded by;
        Firstly, concluding in the weeks ahead the Cohesion Sharing Integration strategy. This then needs built upon with a charter supporting anti-sectarianism, equality and mutual respect, sponsored and led by OFM/dFM. This initiative itself would contribute to easing the parading impasse; begin to ensure power-sharing happens across all councils in the north; and demonstrate to our communities in a very practical way the need for mutual respect.
        Secondly, and building upon work already undertaken by some local communities, to take a lead in developing cross-community and multi-agency initiatives aimed at reducing segregation through the removal of peace walls, and actively promoting increased integrated community life, and cross-community social and cultural activity.
        Thirdly, agreeing to take forward a united platform in opposition to anti-peace process militarists within nationalism, and against those unionist paramilitaries wedded to violence and criminality.
        Fourthly, cross-party and cross community agreement on additional strategic economic and social interventions and capacity building in areas of objective need across the north.
By ensuring this agenda is strategically driven and stratified across society it can provide the template for local community engagement about the future and the quality of political/community leadership, which we must all provide to move the peace process forward.
Critical mass and momentum is needed to build grassroots community support for reconciliation otherwise it remains theoretical and abstract.
A national reconciliation strategy coordinated under the auspices of the North-South Ministerial Council, and supported by both the Assembly and Oireachtas should be the mechanism into which these four measures fit and by which key measurable and actionable priorities can be agreed and implemented.
Reconciliation is not the property or responsibility of any single political party or community. Engagement between us all is required on how best to proceed.
But move forward we must, because what we have at present is not good enough.
Fear of change is part of our post-conflict legacy.
That can be real or imaginary, at times.
Some have expressed fear, scepticism and suspicion of this Sinn Féin initiative on reconciliation. But those concerns can only be allayed through dialogue.
The refusal of political unionism to engage in this discussion is a mistake, because the alternative is to offer the politics of despair.
A policy on non-engagement validates the segregation which blights our society and helps perpetuate the ‘them and us’ mentality and all of the misunderstanding and abuses which have flowed from that.
But political unionism’s refusal to engage on the development of an authentic reconciliation agenda is also duplicitous and contradictory.
That is illustrated in their bellicose demands for actions now, instead of words from Republicans, and more recently apologies from the 26 Counties government. 
All this while refusing to acknowledge fifty years of one party misrule; their own associations with actual and threatened violence and killings during the Ulster Workers’ strikes in the 1970s; during the anti-Hillsborough Agreement protests in the 1980s;  during the Drumcree crisis in the 1990s; and involvement with organisations such as the Third Force and Ulster Clubs.
The fact is, unionist politicians throughout the 70s, 80s, and 90s legitimised and rationalised sectarian killings by unionist paramilitaries; and have continued, including this summer, to publicly associate themselves with unionist paramilitary leaders.
Senior DUP leaders need to realise that political responsibility for ‘acts of commission and omission’, to borrow a phrase from a DUP minister, cuts both ways.
In recent months it has been breathtaking and bewildering to listen to the recriminatory rhetoric used by representatives of political unionism in public discussions on reconciliation.
Their contributions sit in stark juxtaposition to the involvement of DUP politicians in Ulster Resistance; its documented role in importing weapons later sold to the UDA, with the support of several British agents, not just Brian Nelson; and, subsequently used in multiple sectarian and political assassinations during the 1980s and 1990s.
The DUP would be wise to pause and take a step back.
Unionists and republicans both have to take responsibility for our actions. 
Sinn Fein is saying that now we all have to decide what we are going to do about the future. Our course is set.
The DUP and UUP have a very simple choice to make.  They can continue to throw recriminations all over the place, and accomplish absolutely nothing, except leave their own communities to languish in the status quo; or join with the rest of us, embrace new thinking and continue to make more change.
But ordinary unionist and loyalist citizens are not powerless. They do have a choice, whether to put up with deficits in vision and strategy from the unionist political leadership, or begin to demand uncomfortable conversations with DUP and UUP leaders, and tell them to start leading into the future and not backwards.
None of us as unionists or republicans should let our past shackle how we move to the future. Reconciliation is something we can and should do together in the here and now.
Inevitably we need to deal with the past and all the unanswered questions; and that should be done by agreeing to the establishment of an independent, international truth commission.
Some say that republicans are not serious when we advocate that option.
But what we say means everyone – governments, political parties, and British, unionist and republican combatants, and others – going into that arena together and at the same time; and to deal there with all the causes and consequences of the conflict.
That is Sinn Fein’s unambiguous policy position.
Significantly others have gone or remained silent on this issue, most notably the British Government.  Owen Patterson’s precondition of gaining a consensus on the way forward is aimed at pursuing gridlock, by making a demand which cannot be delivered on.
Perhaps the unavoidable and many uncomfortable conversations which the British state needs to have within itself, and the rest of us about its past use of Military Reconnaissance Force counter gangs; Force Research Unit agents; and, present day running of agents in the unionist paramilitaries, and anti peace process militarists, explains its’ silence?
If the British state is not prepared to contribute to truth recovery by owning up to all aspects and consequences of its military, intelligence, and black operations campaign in Ireland, then it must spell out their alternative to an independent, international process. But let’s be clear, that will have to mean everyone’s role in the past being placed on an even playing field.
For now the responsibility of this and future British governments must be to facilitate, and politically and economically invest in a new phase of the peace process.
The incumbent administration should be persuaders and facilitators for reconciliation.
This requires acknowledgement by them, in some form or another, of the role of successive British governments and their agencies in past conflict.
And it requires a significant input by them to a regeneration programme in the north which redresses the legacy of conflict, past divisions and the decades of underfunding of public services.
It requires an enabling programme with a new dynamic.
A useful beginning would be;
        The implementation of outstanding elements of the Good Friday, St. Andrews and Hillsborough Castle Agreements;
        Committal of the previously agreed £18bn for much needed capital spend projects in the six counties
        A disapplication of the Welfare Cuts agenda to the north and the lowering of corporation tax there;
        A review of the Barnett Formula and the transfer of fiscal powers to the Executive.
 
Add to this;
        the closure of the NIO,
        withdrawal of the British Secretary of State,
        the transfer of reserved powers to the Executive, and
        the setting of a date for a Border Poll.
 
Then we are at once into a major advance in the outworking of the conflict resolution process and a new dynamic; and all in a non-prescriptive way recognising that it is for the people of Ireland, north and south, to determine and shape their future.
 
New and big thinking needs brought to the political and peace processes in Ireland.  The British state and political unionism need to step up to the mark.
Sinn Féin has a vision of an authentic reconciliation process with the capacity to heal divisions within and between diverse communities on the island of Ireland and between our country and Britain.
We aspire to a new phase of the peace process, which allows for the replacement of division with new human and political relationships.
Our ambition is to achieve reconciliation in our time and the beginning of an era in which we all as Republican, unionist, Irish and British citizens can become friends with one another:  a time when our children learn to play and grow up together; and in which, to paraphrase Bobby Sands, the future can echo with their laughter.

Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: theticklemister on October 25, 2012, 01:04:03 PM
I seen 'Declan Kearny's speech at Westminster' heading and I stopped there.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on October 25, 2012, 01:06:57 PM
I seen 'Declan Kearny's speech at Westminster' heading and I stopped there.

Good man with an open mind. ;)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: AQMP on October 25, 2012, 01:19:24 PM
time for a new leader. Gerry isn't doing the business
Can't see anyone moving against him - he knows where all the bodies are buried...*

Anyhow, with the "Armed Struggle" [sic] a thing of the past and no sign of a UI anywhere on the horizon, I predict that both he and McGuinness will make plans to step down not too long after they've got Easter 1916 out of the way.

Which will provide the opportunity for the new breed of younger, probably Republic-based successors to take over. Of course, without the kudos/stench (delete as preferred) of the IRA attached to them, the new guys will be free to lead the Party in a new direction, should they choose.

And this is something which someone like me should welcome, not just because it must take us all further away from the misery and evil inflicted upon everyone by the former leadership, but also because it will almost certainly mean SF will become just another political party, pretty much indistinguishable from all the others.

Meanwhile, Adams and McGuinness will have their retirement years to ponder whether it was all worth the 2,000+ deaths their activities caused, before they finally snuff it in a (still) partitioned Ireland...   

I hope I live long enough to see that day myself.

* - And just in case anyone should be in any doubt, I'm being literal, not humourous  >:(

They say a week is a long time in politics, EG and I rather think 3.5 years is an absolute age.  Whatever about McGuinness, I don't think Adams is a "peacetime" leader and while he may be well versed in the intricacies of revolutionary politics he doesn't possess the required nuanced grasp of the issues around the economy, health, foreign policy etc.  I think he needs to be replaced a lot sooner than post 2016 if SF are to make gains amongst the Southern electorate.  As you have said in other threads (and I agree) SF's vote in the North has peaked + or - 10,000 votes here or there.  So for them to make inroads in the South (amongst other things) they need (ironically for an anti partition party) a Southern leader with no "military" credentials.  If I were an SF strategist I'd be saying "What possible benefit is there to wait until 2016/2017?  Sure Gerry can turn up at 2016 celebrations portraying himself as the grey haired elder statesman of Northern Republicanism, if he wants..."
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on October 25, 2012, 06:23:30 PM
So, just to be clear, he wants...
        The implementation of outstanding elements of the Good Friday, St. Andrews and Hillsborough Castle Agreements;

...but he also wants...
Add to this;
        the closure of the NIO,
        withdrawal of the British Secretary of State,
        the transfer of reserved powers to the Executive, and
        the setting of a date for a Border Poll.

Doesn't the second list of demands contradict the idea of demanding full implementation of the GFA?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on October 25, 2012, 10:36:12 PM
I know Magure you stoops and the dissos thinks the same but to the Shinners the GFA was always a work in progress not the end result.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: armaghniac on October 25, 2012, 11:21:43 PM
Quote
but to the Shinners the GFA was always a work in progress not the end result.

Which parts of the project are being worked on at present?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on October 26, 2012, 07:54:41 AM
I know Magure you stoops and the dissos thinks the same but to the Shinners the GFA was always a work in progress not the end result.
I fully appreciate that things can develop, but that 'wish-list' is nothing more than hot air (and to keep SF's own support base convinced). On what basis does SF expect the British government to ignore the GFA and get rid of the SoS etc? Or call a border poll?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on October 27, 2012, 05:34:44 PM
time for a new leader. Gerry isn't doing the business
Can't see anyone moving against him - he knows where all the bodies are buried...*

Anyhow, with the "Armed Struggle" [sic] a thing of the past and no sign of a UI anywhere on the horizon, I predict that both he and McGuinness will make plans to step down not too long after they've got Easter 1916 out of the way.

Which will provide the opportunity for the new breed of younger, probably Republic-based successors to take over. Of course, without the kudos/stench (delete as preferred) of the IRA attached to them, the new guys will be free to lead the Party in a new direction, should they choose.

And this is something which someone like me should welcome, not just because it must take us all further away from the misery and evil inflicted upon everyone by the former leadership, but also because it will almost certainly mean SF will become just another political party, pretty much indistinguishable from all the others.

Meanwhile, Adams and McGuinness will have their retirement years to ponder whether it was all worth the 2,000+ deaths their activities caused, before they finally snuff it in a (still) partitioned Ireland...   

I hope I live long enough to see that day myself.

* - And just in case anyone should be in any doubt, I'm being literal, not humourous  >:(

They say a week is a long time in politics, EG and I rather think 3.5 years is an absolute age.  Whatever about McGuinness, I don't think Adams is a "peacetime" leader and while he may be well versed in the intricacies of revolutionary politics he doesn't possess the required nuanced grasp of the issues around the economy, health, foreign policy etc.  I think he needs to be replaced a lot sooner than post 2016 if SF are to make gains amongst the Southern electorate.  As you have said in other threads (and I agree) SF's vote in the North has peaked + or - 10,000 votes here or there.  So for them to make inroads in the South (amongst other things) they need (ironically for an anti partition party) a Southern leader with no "military" credentials.  If I were an SF strategist I'd be saying "What possible benefit is there to wait until 2016/2017?  Sure Gerry can turn up at 2016 celebrations portraying himself as the grey haired elder statesman of Northern Republicanism, if he wants..."
i'd go with that. he has to go quickly and take angus with him
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Ulick on October 27, 2012, 06:03:13 PM
i'd go with that. he has to go quickly and take angus with him

Nonsense, no matter what the MSM would have you believe, Adams is SF's number one asset north and south. The whole Party in the south is in the process of being reorganised and put on a more professional footing the fruits of which are only being to pay off - Adams has and is overseeing that. Most people don't appreciate how much of a shambles the organisation was in the south, so much so that they weren't able to capitalise and build on the 2002 election. They stagnated and reverted somewhat over the following five years and have only recently started to make progress again. You may talk about Doherty and Tobin all you like but at the end of the day they are still extremely wet behind the ears. A strong leader is needed to make the necessary changes while keeping all the conflicting lobbies at bay (urban-rural, socialist-nationalist-republican etc...) - Adams is the only man in the Party with the authority to do that and there'll be no challenge against him. He'll step down eventually but only when the Party core is strong enough to ensure it doesn't pull itself apart a la the Workers Party, PDs and Clann na Poblachta.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: orangeman on November 06, 2012, 11:29:16 AM
Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly has called for the immediate release of Padraic Wilson, claiming his arrest is politically motivated.Mr Wilson, a senior republican, is in custody after being charged with offences in relation to the murder of Robert McCartney in 2005.

Mr Kelly, said the arrest was political policing by some PSNI members and was undermining confidence in the police.

"This has gone through republicanism like a bush fire," he said.

"I can tell you frankly that many, many people have been in touch, from other colleagues, very angry about the idea that someone who was crucial to bringing people along in the peace process and political process is now behind bars where he should not be."

Mr Kelly said that the media should also be concerned at the arrest because under this legislation reporters could be charged for talking to illegal organisations.

He said a protest was being planned, and rejected suggestions his call as a member of the policing board was political interference in policing.

The SDLP's west Belfast MLA Alex Attwood said the party was trying to influence the justice system.

"In previous years, Sinn Fein complained of 'political influence' over the courts and of 'political policing'," he said.

"Today, in a brazen public way, Sinn Fein are at the same. People campaigned, worked and struggled to change 'the old order of things', for now Sinn Fein to recreate it, a modern version of the failed past, a renewed attempt to pressure politically the due process of law."

The DUP's Lord Morrow said: "Sinn Fein's stance on this serious matter does nothing to take Northern Ireland forward into a normal society despite their protestations that this is their aim and objective.

"They cannot expect to endear themselves to the Unionist community or portray a society of equals if they continue to practice a separatist agenda which applies only to their own ideals."

The Traditional Unionist Voice assembly member Jim Allister said plans for a protest were "unacceptable".

"It is hard to imagine a situation anywhere else in the western world where a party of government would take to the streets to demand the release of someone accused of serious terrorist offences," he said.

"Not only that but Wilson continues to hold a senior post within the party."

Padraic Wilson, 53, was a key negotiator in the Maze Prison in the late 1990s. He is Sinn Fein's director of international affairs.

He has been charged with IRA membership and addressing a meeting to encourage support for the IRA, which he denies.

Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on November 06, 2012, 01:13:34 PM
PRESS RELEASE: Sinn Féin President Gerry Adams TD and Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness MP MLA have written a joint letter to senior US political leaders, including Secretary of State Hilary Clinton, Congressman Peter King, who is Chair of the Congr
essional Friends of Ireland, and Richard Neal who is the ranking Democrat on the Friends of Ireland committee, and other senior figures, urging them to raise the case of Marian Price McGlinchey and to support her release.

Mr Adams, who will be in the US and Canada later this week, pointed out that: “Mrs Price McGlinchey has been held in virtual solitary confinement since her arrest in May 2011 and is very ill.

A recent report by a UN doctor has concluded that Mrs Price McGlinchey is ‘unable to comprehend the allegations being made against her to a sufficient degree to inform her defence.’

“In a separate report earlier this year a consultant clinical
psychiatrist for the prison service concluded that it was ‘highly
likely’ that she ‘will be unable to fully and effectively participate
in any upcoming legal proceedings due to the inherent level of stress
and demand of such proceedings.’”

The two Sinn Féin leaders have written to the senior political figures in the US seeking their support for her release and asking that they lobby the British and Irish governments.

In their letter Mr Adams and Mr McGuinness describe Marian Price
McGlinchey’s imprisonment as “a serious case of injustice and denial of human rights and judicial rights in the North of Ireland.

“Marian Price McGlinchey has been held in virtual solitary confinement by the British Government since her arrest in May 2011. Sinn Féin is very concerned about the manner and conditions in which Mrs Price McGlinchey has been detained.

“We believe that her detention is unjust and runs contrary to the
principles of natural justice.

“She has been detained without trial on the basis of secret reports by British intelligence agencies. Everyone is entitled to due process and to a fair trial. Mrs Price
McGlinchey has been denied this, representing, in our view, a
serious breach of her human rights.

“For the most of this latest period of imprisonment Mrs Price Mc
Glinchey has been held in isolation, firstly at Maghaberry Male
Prison, in the hospital wing at Hydebank Women's Prison and
latterly, in a secure ward in a Belfast hospital.

“In all of these institutions her health has continued to deteriorate.
A number of doctors who have examined Mrs Price McGlinchey have confirmed that her mental health has suffered greatly and that she would be unable to participate meaningfully in a ‘review’ of her case…

“We believe very strongly that Marian Price McGlinchey should be
released. Her human rights have been breached. She has been denied justice and due process. She is seriously ill. Her detention
undermines the justice system and the political process. She clearly presents no threat to anyone. I am writing to ask that you use your considerable influence and raise this case and the release of Marian Price McGlinchey with the British and Irish governments.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Tony Baloney on November 06, 2012, 03:50:00 PM
I have to say Niall O Donnghaile came across as a decent citizen in that documentary last night. Couple of lapses in judgement re. cadets etc. but overall seemed about 100 times better than the DUP dinosaurs of the past. The narrator seemed to offer criticism re. removal of his Republican pictures etc, whereas I thought it was a decent touch and in line with his earlier talk about mutual respect.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on November 06, 2012, 04:01:07 PM
I have to say Niall O Donnghaile came across as a decent citizen in that documentary last night. Couple of lapses in judgement re. cadets etc. but overall seemed about 100 times better than the DUP dinosaurs of the past. The narrator seemed to offer criticism re. removal of his Republican pictures etc, whereas I thought it was a decent touch and in line with his earlier talk about mutual respect.
Yep, credit where it's due, and it was good to have someone a bit (or a lot) younger in such a role, especially given the year that it was - although the lapses in judgement were disappointing.

In the context of the 'DUP dinosaurs of the past', it's worth noting that the current Mayor, Gavin Robinson, is himself a vast improvement on a lot of his party colleagues.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Evil Genius on November 07, 2012, 06:22:36 PM
PRESS RELEASE: Sinn Féin President Gerry Adams TD and Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness MP MLA have written a joint letter to senior US political leaders, including Secretary of State Hilary Clinton, Congressman Peter King, who is Chair of the Congr
essional Friends of Ireland, and Richard Neal who is the ranking Democrat on the Friends of Ireland committee, and other senior figures, urging them to raise the case of Marian Price McGlinchey and to support her release.

Mr Adams, who will be in the US and Canada later this week, pointed out that: “Mrs Price McGlinchey has been held in virtual solitary confinement since her arrest in May 2011 and is very ill.

A recent report by a UN doctor has concluded that Mrs Price McGlinchey is ‘unable to comprehend the allegations being made against her to a sufficient degree to inform her defence.’

“In a separate report earlier this year a consultant clinical
psychiatrist for the prison service concluded that it was ‘highly
likely’ that she ‘will be unable to fully and effectively participate
in any upcoming legal proceedings due to the inherent level of stress
and demand of such proceedings.’”

The two Sinn Féin leaders have written to the senior political figures in the US seeking their support for her release and asking that they lobby the British and Irish governments.

In their letter Mr Adams and Mr McGuinness describe Marian Price
McGlinchey’s imprisonment as “a serious case of injustice and denial of human rights and judicial rights in the North of Ireland.

“Marian Price McGlinchey has been held in virtual solitary confinement by the British Government since her arrest in May 2011. Sinn Féin is very concerned about the manner and conditions in which Mrs Price McGlinchey has been detained.

“We believe that her detention is unjust and runs contrary to the
principles of natural justice.

“She has been detained without trial on the basis of secret reports by British intelligence agencies. Everyone is entitled to due process and to a fair trial. Mrs Price
McGlinchey has been denied this, representing, in our view, a
serious breach of her human rights.

“For the most of this latest period of imprisonment Mrs Price Mc
Glinchey has been held in isolation, firstly at Maghaberry Male
Prison, in the hospital wing at Hydebank Women's Prison and
latterly, in a secure ward in a Belfast hospital.

“In all of these institutions her health has continued to deteriorate.
A number of doctors who have examined Mrs Price McGlinchey have confirmed that her mental health has suffered greatly and that she would be unable to participate meaningfully in a ‘review’ of her case…

“We believe very strongly that Marian Price McGlinchey should be
released. Her human rights have been breached. She has been denied justice and due process. She is seriously ill. Her detention
undermines the justice system and the political process. She clearly presents no threat to anyone. I am writing to ask that you use your considerable influence and raise this case and the release of Marian Price McGlinchey with the British and Irish governments.
So let me see.

On the very same day as the McGuinness was asked to stay way from the funeral of a Prison Officer at Maghaberry who had been murdered by Dissident Republicans, SF issues a Press Release in support of, ahem, a Dissident Republican imprisoned at Maghaberry.

Were they not concerned by Price's plight a week before? Could they not, out of sensitivity, have delayed the Press Release for a few days?

If nothing else, that would have permitted them to assess the results of the US Presidential Election, in case it needed re-addressing from Mrs Clinton to a future Republican Secretary of State?

Callous, calculating, cynical b**tards  >:(


P.S. What exactly do they mean by "virtual solitary confinement"? Surely it is either solitary confinement or it is not. Unless, of course, it might be that Price is/was for a period the only female Dissident prisoner in Maghaberry/Hydebank, and it would hardly have been acceptable to have her (ahem) banged up with a man...
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Gaaboardmod3 on November 13, 2012, 10:59:46 AM
Wrong thread!!!
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on November 13, 2012, 08:26:13 PM
Councillor Mickey Coogan quits Sinn Fein

By Martina Purdy
BBC NI Political Correspondent
 
The chairman of Down Council, Mickey Coogan, has dramatically quit Sinn Fein to become an independent councillor.

 Mickey Coogan quit Sinn Fein because of "irreconcilable differences"
He will remain as council chairman as he is legally entitled to do. Sources say this has infuriated Sinn Fein.

In a statement, Sinn Fein's South Down chairperson, Ryan Morgan, said he was sad and disappointed that the Ballynahinch man had resigned.

Cllr Coogan told the BBC that he quit because of "irreconcilable differences" with individual members of Sinn Fein.

The 45 year old said that he felt undermined by some people when it came to projects he was working on in the Ballynahinch area.

Anti-social behaviour
 
"I have been working on projects - Sinn Fein encouraged my projects - but individuals tried to undermine them."

Mr Coogan has been working on various projects including the tackling of anti-social behaviour and fear of crime.

He has been involved in republican politics since he was a teenager and helped to form the first Sinn Fein branch in Ballynahinch in 1999.

He said Sinn Fein councillor Sean McPeake, council co-ordinator, and Chris Hazzard, MLA for South Down, met him yesterday in a bid to dissuade him.

He added he had no problem with any of his council colleagues and "great respect" for Mr Hazzard but he had made up his mind.

Mr Coogan said he had some issues in the past but had persevered. "This could have happened a few years ago," he said.

He also admitted being unhappy with the strategy employed by Sinn Fein in 2011 when Naomi Bailie was brought onto the ticket for the assembly election - although he added he has no personal issue with her.

'Unforgiving'
 
Mr Coogan said he intends to remain as an independent for the duration of his council term and then decide his future.

Asked if he would rejoin Sinn Fein, he said: "I don't think so - politics is unforgiving."

Mr Morgan said: "Mickey Coogan has served Sinn Fein since 2005 on council so I am disappointed he has decided to resign from the party.

"Despite offers from myself and other senior party colleagues to meet with Mr Coogan to discuss any difficulties, he has yet to give a substantial reason why he decided to resign."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20310706
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on November 16, 2012, 12:29:11 PM
Seriously worried about the lack of a strong nationalist/republican party, shinners and the stoops are Peter's lapdogs. Not one inch of parity of esteem has followed from the GFA and no sign of a UI in the next 100 years...well done guys.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Ulick on November 16, 2012, 01:36:51 PM
Seriously worried about the lack of a strong nationalist/republican party, shinners and the stoops are Peter's lapdogs. Not one inch of parity of esteem has followed from the GFA and no sign of a UI in the next 100 years...well done guys.

What exactly are you doing to gain "parity of esteem" or advance the cause of UI?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: charlieTully on November 16, 2012, 01:49:16 PM
Seriously worried about the lack of a strong nationalist/republican party, shinners and the stoops are Peter's lapdogs. Not one inch of parity of esteem has followed from the GFA and no sign of a UI in the next 100 years...well done guys.

What exactly are you doing to gain "parity of esteem" or advance the cause of UI?

thats what we vote sf for. they need to keep at it. good to hear them call for the release of Marian Price though. thought they should have been a lot more vocal during the summer around parades and bonfires etc.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on November 16, 2012, 11:41:46 PM
Seriously worried about the lack of a strong nationalist/republican party, shinners and the stoops are Peter's lapdogs. Not one inch of parity of esteem has followed from the GFA and no sign of a UI in the next 100 years...well done guys.

What exactly are you doing to gain "parity of esteem" or advance the cause of UI?

thats what we vote sf for. they need to keep at it. good to hear them call for the release of Marian Price though. thought they should have been a lot more vocal during the summer around parades and bonfires etc.
Fc*K Marian Price she is a dissident. What about proper representation .
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Ulick on November 16, 2012, 11:57:29 PM
Dissidents are human as well.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on November 17, 2012, 12:45:02 AM
Seriously worried about the lack of a strong nationalist/republican party, shinners and the stoops are Peter's lapdogs. Not one inch of parity of esteem has followed from the GFA and no sign of a UI in the next 100 years...well done guys.

What exactly are you doing to gain "parity of esteem" or advance the cause of UI?

thats what we vote sf for. they need to keep at it. good to hear them call for the release of Marian Price though. thought they should have been a lot more vocal during the summer around parades and bonfires etc.
Fc*K Marian Price she is a dissident. What about proper representation .
Clown.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on November 17, 2012, 09:31:41 AM
Seriously worried about the lack of a strong nationalist/republican party, shinners and the stoops are Peter's lapdogs. Not one inch of parity of esteem has followed from the GFA and no sign of a UI in the next 100 years...well done guys.

What exactly are you doing to gain "parity of esteem" or advance the cause of UI?

thats what we vote sf for. they need to keep at it. good to hear them call for the release of Marian Price though. thought they should have been a lot more vocal during the summer around parades and bonfires etc.
Fc*K Marian Price she is a dissident. What about proper representation .
Clown.
Happy to be a clown but Ms Price wants to drag us back to war, and no one I know wants to go there.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on November 17, 2012, 10:04:28 AM
Seriously worried about the lack of a strong nationalist/republican party, shinners and the stoops are Peter's lapdogs. Not one inch of parity of esteem has followed from the GFA and no sign of a UI in the next 100 years...well done guys.

What exactly are you doing to gain "parity of esteem" or advance the cause of UI?

thats what we vote sf for. they need to keep at it. good to hear them call for the release of Marian Price though. thought they should have been a lot more vocal during the summer around parades and bonfires etc.
Fc*K Marian Price she is a dissident. What about proper representation .
Clown.
Happy to be a clown but Ms Price wants to drag us back to war, and no one I know wants to go there.
You talk on one hand about decent representation and parity of esteem and on the other, show a total ignorance of learning from the past by supporting internment without trial. Glad you're happy being a clown because you're nothing more.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Saffrongael on November 17, 2012, 08:33:43 PM
Sunday Times/Behaviour & Attitudes poll  FG 30 -1, Lab 12 -2, FF 22 +6, SF 14 -4, Ind 19 nc, green 3 +1.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on November 17, 2012, 09:13:30 PM
Good to see your happy with FF doing well
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on November 17, 2012, 11:24:17 PM
What?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on November 18, 2012, 12:05:47 AM
Inching towards a quarter of people in the 26 counties wanting to put back in power the party which bankrupted the place and surrendered sovereignty. Pathetic beyond belief! Shameful!
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: armaghniac on November 18, 2012, 12:56:07 AM
Quote
Inching towards a quarter of people in the 26 counties wanting to put back in power the party which bankrupted the place and surrendered sovereignty.


People always want an alternative to the government and the rest of the leftie looneys are of no interest for responsible people, so they may think FF have learned their lesson.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on November 18, 2012, 01:11:18 AM
Quote
Inching towards a quarter of people in the 26 counties wanting to put back in power the party which bankrupted the place and surrendered sovereignty.


People always want an alternative to the government and the rest of the leftie looneys are of no interest for responsible people, so they may think FF have learned their lesson.

Justifying the unjustifiable. If it needs repeating, FF bankrupted the state and surrendered its sovereignty FFS!!!
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Ulick on November 18, 2012, 01:46:29 AM
Sunday Times/Behaviour & Attitudes poll  FG 30 -1, Lab 12 -2, FF 22 +6, SF 14 -4, Ind 19 nc, green 3 +1.

Not surprising
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on November 18, 2012, 09:58:40 AM
Inching towards a quarter of people in the 26 counties wanting to put back in power the party which bankrupted the place and surrendered sovereignty. Pathetic beyond belief! Shameful!
When you say 'pathetic' and 'shameful', are you referring to the voters, or the rest of the opposition who haven't managed to convince that they're a viable alternative?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on November 18, 2012, 10:51:41 AM
Inching towards a quarter of people in the 26 counties wanting to put back in power the party which bankrupted the place and surrendered sovereignty. Pathetic beyond belief! Shameful!
When you say 'pathetic' and 'shameful', are you referring to the voters, or the rest of the opposition who haven't managed to convince that they're a viable alternative?

The voters, Maguire. The gombeen voters. See reply to armaghniac.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on November 18, 2012, 11:01:09 AM
Inching towards a quarter of people in the 26 counties wanting to put back in power the party which bankrupted the place and surrendered sovereignty. Pathetic beyond belief! Shameful!
When you say 'pathetic' and 'shameful', are you referring to the voters, or the rest of the opposition who haven't managed to convince that they're a viable alternative?

The voters, Maguire. The gombeen voters. See reply to armaghniac.
Yes, I had gathered that. I was being facetious.
At the same time, this represents a massive failure by SF to convince the public that they're the alternative to an unpopular government.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on November 18, 2012, 02:05:05 PM
Inching towards a quarter of people in the 26 counties wanting to put back in power the party which bankrupted the place and surrendered sovereignty. Pathetic beyond belief! Shameful!
When you say 'pathetic' and 'shameful', are you referring to the voters, or the rest of the opposition who haven't managed to convince that they're a viable alternative?


The voters, Maguire. The gombeen voters. See reply to armaghniac.
Yes, I had gathered that. I was being facetious.
At the same time, this represents a massive failure by SF to convince the public that they're the alternative to an unpopular government.
not often i agree with you maguire especially regarding sinn fein. while i'm a shinner myself i'm also a realist. gerry has to go as leader, he just has'nt been able to land any blows on two parties that are 'hanging for banging' (fine fail) ffs a senior sf td caught biffo playin golf with criminal bankers! and the electorate arent hearing that. you can forget about labour they are finished. gerry is caring and decent and that isnt what is needed. sinn fein need to tear into the gombeens and highlight the crap thats going on the hospitals closing, the failure to address the banking problem, the pensions.. etc fianna fail cant do it they put most of the shite there in the first place. we need a paisley in essence someone to thump the table and do the never never never stuff and thats not gerry
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Rossfan on November 18, 2012, 05:14:19 PM
A realistic SFer.
Ulick and Nally please note this lads comments and stop throwing ye're toys put of the pram.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: naka on November 19, 2012, 02:51:12 PM
Inching towards a quarter of people in the 26 counties wanting to put back in power the party which bankrupted the place and surrendered sovereignty. Pathetic beyond belief! Shameful!
i can understand why people might be tempted to try FF again. Enda has been no great shakes and SF havent really done anything  in the south since gerry went down there. o doherty might have been a better choice but i really dont know  what is behind their policies.
having said that sf are in power in stormont and the north is in a mess
with no direction whatsoever.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on November 19, 2012, 05:32:14 PM
gerry is caring and decent and that isnt what is needed.
;D
Brilliant! Yes, he's practically Mother Teresa. Nothing to do with competence - it's just that he's all heart.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on November 19, 2012, 05:37:33 PM
i can understand why people might be tempted to try FF again.

Yeah it's not as if they bankrupted the state and surrendered it's sovereignty or anything bad like that I suppose.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on November 19, 2012, 05:40:32 PM
I can't understand this move against Jim Wells.

MLAs reject attempt to exclude DUP's Jim Wells
By Gareth Gordon
BBC NI political correspondent
 
The Assembly has rejected an attempt to exclude the DUP MLA Jim Wells from the chamber for a week.

The sanction had been suggested by a Stormont committee after Mr Wells refused to apologise for comments he made to Mary McArdle, former adviser to the Culture Minister Caral Ni Chuilin.

Ms McArdle was convicted for her part in the 1984 murder of magistrate's daughter Mary Travers.

The motion was defeated by 51 votes to 49.

Mr Wells made the comments last year when the controversial appointment of Ms McArdle was in the headlines.

Ms McArdle had been convicted for her part in the shooting of the young school teacher.

Mary Travers, 22, was shot as she left Mass at Derryvolgie, Belfast, with her father, magistrate Tom Travers. Ms McArdle was sentenced to a life term and was released under the Good Friday Agreement.

She has since left the adviser post and been replaced by Jarlath Kearney, a former journalist who has worked as a Sinn Fein policy adviser.

In two separate encounters last summer Mr Wells made his views known face-to-face and vehemently to the minister and her then adviser.

Kieran McCarthy, deputy chair of the standards and privileges committee, said Ms Ni Chuilin claimed Mr Wells behaved in an aggressive and threatening manner telling her 'You needn't think you're going to bring that murderer to South Down'.

Ms McArdle alleged that Mr Wells had confronted her later on the same month - she said that Mr Wells had passed her on the first floor of the corridor in parliament buildings and had said to her, "there's the murderer herself".

Mr Wells admits calling Ms McArdle a monster adviser but denies calling her a murderer.

Last week the former assembly standards commissioner Tom Frawley decided Mr Wells had not shown the women enough respect.



So he called a convicted murder a murderer, apparently - is that it?
And Catriona Ruane is accusing him of being anti-Catholic, anti-Nationalist and a misogynist - am I missing something here? I wouldn't consider Wells to be a very likeable individual, but I can't understand the fuss over this - or Ruane's response.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on November 20, 2012, 02:28:55 PM
Seriously worried about the lack of a strong nationalist/republican party, shinners and the stoops are Peter's lapdogs. Not one inch of parity of esteem has followed from the GFA and no sign of a UI in the next 100 years...well done guys.

What exactly are you doing to gain "parity of esteem" or advance the cause of UI?

thats what we vote sf for. they need to keep at it. good to hear them call for the release of Marian Price though. thought they should have been a lot more vocal during the summer around parades and bonfires etc.
Fc*K Marian Price she is a dissident. What about proper representation .
Clown.
Happy to be a clown but Ms Price wants to drag us back to war, and no one I know wants to go there.
You talk on one hand about decent representation and parity of esteem and on the other, show a total ignorance of learning from the past by supporting internment without trial. Glad you're happy being a clown because you're nothing more.
This is not internment, she new what she was doing by consorting with dissidents therefore breaking the terms of her licence which were negotiated as part of the GFA by Sinn Fein. I would look in the mirror before calling anyone names.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on November 20, 2012, 02:33:29 PM
I can't understand this move against Jim Wells.

MLAs reject attempt to exclude DUP's Jim Wells
By Gareth Gordon
BBC NI political correspondent
 
The Assembly has rejected an attempt to exclude the DUP MLA Jim Wells from the chamber for a week.

The sanction had been suggested by a Stormont committee after Mr Wells refused to apologise for comments he made to Mary McArdle, former adviser to the Culture Minister Caral Ni Chuilin.

Ms McArdle was convicted for her part in the 1984 murder of magistrate's daughter Mary Travers.

The motion was defeated by 51 votes to 49.

Mr Wells made the comments last year when the controversial appointment of Ms McArdle was in the headlines.

Ms McArdle had been convicted for her part in the shooting of the young school teacher.

Mary Travers, 22, was shot as she left Mass at Derryvolgie, Belfast, with her father, magistrate Tom Travers. Ms McArdle was sentenced to a life term and was released under the Good Friday Agreement.

She has since left the adviser post and been replaced by Jarlath Kearney, a former journalist who has worked as a Sinn Fein policy adviser.

In two separate encounters last summer Mr Wells made his views known face-to-face and vehemently to the minister and her then adviser.

Kieran McCarthy, deputy chair of the standards and privileges committee, said Ms Ni Chuilin claimed Mr Wells behaved in an aggressive and threatening manner telling her 'You needn't think you're going to bring that murderer to South Down'.

Ms McArdle alleged that Mr Wells had confronted her later on the same month - she said that Mr Wells had passed her on the first floor of the corridor in parliament buildings and had said to her, "there's the murderer herself".

Mr Wells admits calling Ms McArdle a monster adviser but denies calling her a murderer.

Last week the former assembly standards commissioner Tom Frawley decided Mr Wells had not shown the women enough respect.



So he called a convicted murder a murderer, apparently - is that it?
And Catriona Ruane is accusing him of being anti-Catholic, anti-Nationalist and a misogynist - am I missing something here? I wouldn't consider Wells to be a very likeable individual, but I can't understand the fuss over this - or Ruane's response.
I think Ruane's discription would be fairly on the money. Jim is very much on the Nelson wing of the DUP. He performs well when talking on health, but Killkeel is not a bastion of reconcilliation. That said the outcome of this debate was predictable and I suspect it was more about point scoring than an apology. It just shows you the level of politics in the North. All the issues we have with the economy and MLA's still waste time on shit like this, marches etc. Plus Ca Change I believe the French would say. (I can't manage the dangly bit on the C pefore the French Grammar Police take isssue.)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on November 20, 2012, 02:49:55 PM
Seriously worried about the lack of a strong nationalist/republican party, shinners and the stoops are Peter's lapdogs. Not one inch of parity of esteem has followed from the GFA and no sign of a UI in the next 100 years...well done guys.

What exactly are you doing to gain "parity of esteem" or advance the cause of UI?

thats what we vote sf for. they need to keep at it. good to hear them call for the release of Marian Price though. thought they should have been a lot more vocal during the summer around parades and bonfires etc.
Fc*K Marian Price she is a dissident. What about proper representation .
Clown.
Happy to be a clown but Ms Price wants to drag us back to war, and no one I know wants to go there.
You talk on one hand about decent representation and parity of esteem and on the other, show a total ignorance of learning from the past by supporting internment without trial. Glad you're happy being a clown because you're nothing more.
This is not internment, she new what she was doing by consorting with dissidents therefore breaking the terms of her licence which were negotiated as part of the GFA by Sinn Fein. I would look in the mirror before calling anyone names.

She was never released on licence, which makes your claim (and that of your ally, the former British SoS) that she broke the terms of "her licence" a bit odd. She was granted a so-called "royal pardon" which was conveniently "lost or destroyed". The only occurrence of this in recent history in fact.

It is clear cut internment. With an attitude like yours, you'd fit right in at the NIO. Amazing inability to learn from the past and shocking for someone who claims to want "parity of esteem" etc to be so willing to make excuses for a british minister interning people in Ireland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17071818 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17071818)
Former prison chaplain Monsignor Raymond Murray said Mr Paterson's decision had echoes of the past for nationalists.
"This is a form of internment," said Monsignor Murray, who was prison chaplain in Armagh for almost 20 years. "I am just shocked that the secretary of state wouldn't be aware of how seriously nationalist people look on internment. We thought it had all ended and here it is coming under a form of revocation, revoking a license. He would have to explain to us and explain the process of law as regards Marian Price. In any way has she broken the law? That would have to be provided but it is not provided by shoving her into prison on a pretence in an unjust way."
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: AQMP on November 20, 2012, 03:19:57 PM
I can't understand this move against Jim Wells.

MLAs reject attempt to exclude DUP's Jim Wells
By Gareth Gordon
BBC NI political correspondent
 
The Assembly has rejected an attempt to exclude the DUP MLA Jim Wells from the chamber for a week.

The sanction had been suggested by a Stormont committee after Mr Wells refused to apologise for comments he made to Mary McArdle, former adviser to the Culture Minister Caral Ni Chuilin.

Ms McArdle was convicted for her part in the 1984 murder of magistrate's daughter Mary Travers.

The motion was defeated by 51 votes to 49.

Mr Wells made the comments last year when the controversial appointment of Ms McArdle was in the headlines.

Ms McArdle had been convicted for her part in the shooting of the young school teacher.

Mary Travers, 22, was shot as she left Mass at Derryvolgie, Belfast, with her father, magistrate Tom Travers. Ms McArdle was sentenced to a life term and was released under the Good Friday Agreement.

She has since left the adviser post and been replaced by Jarlath Kearney, a former journalist who has worked as a Sinn Fein policy adviser.

In two separate encounters last summer Mr Wells made his views known face-to-face and vehemently to the minister and her then adviser.

Kieran McCarthy, deputy chair of the standards and privileges committee, said Ms Ni Chuilin claimed Mr Wells behaved in an aggressive and threatening manner telling her 'You needn't think you're going to bring that murderer to South Down'.

Ms McArdle alleged that Mr Wells had confronted her later on the same month - she said that Mr Wells had passed her on the first floor of the corridor in parliament buildings and had said to her, "there's the murderer herself".

Mr Wells admits calling Ms McArdle a monster adviser but denies calling her a murderer.

Last week the former assembly standards commissioner Tom Frawley decided Mr Wells had not shown the women enough respect.



So he called a convicted murder a murderer, apparently - is that it?
And Catriona Ruane is accusing him of being anti-Catholic, anti-Nationalist and a misogynist - am I missing something here? I wouldn't consider Wells to be a very likeable individual, but I can't understand the fuss over this - or Ruane's response.
I think Ruane's discription would be fairly on the money. Jim is very much on the Nelson wing of the DUP. He performs well when talking on health, but Killkeel is not a bastion of reconcilliation. That said the outcome of this debate was predictable and I suspect it was more about point scoring than an apology. It just shows you the level of politics in the North. All the issues we have with the economy and MLA's still waste time on shit like this, marches etc. Plus Ca Change I believe the French would say. (I can't manage the dangly bit on the C pefore the French Grammar Police take isssue.)

Shurely you mean a "cedille" or "cedilla" ;)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: AQMP on November 20, 2012, 03:22:06 PM
I can't understand this move against Jim Wells.

MLAs reject attempt to exclude DUP's Jim Wells
By Gareth Gordon
BBC NI political correspondent
 
The Assembly has rejected an attempt to exclude the DUP MLA Jim Wells from the chamber for a week.

The sanction had been suggested by a Stormont committee after Mr Wells refused to apologise for comments he made to Mary McArdle, former adviser to the Culture Minister Caral Ni Chuilin.

Ms McArdle was convicted for her part in the 1984 murder of magistrate's daughter Mary Travers.

The motion was defeated by 51 votes to 49.

Mr Wells made the comments last year when the controversial appointment of Ms McArdle was in the headlines.

Ms McArdle had been convicted for her part in the shooting of the young school teacher.

Mary Travers, 22, was shot as she left Mass at Derryvolgie, Belfast, with her father, magistrate Tom Travers. Ms McArdle was sentenced to a life term and was released under the Good Friday Agreement.

She has since left the adviser post and been replaced by Jarlath Kearney, a former journalist who has worked as a Sinn Fein policy adviser.

In two separate encounters last summer Mr Wells made his views known face-to-face and vehemently to the minister and her then adviser.

Kieran McCarthy, deputy chair of the standards and privileges committee, said Ms Ni Chuilin claimed Mr Wells behaved in an aggressive and threatening manner telling her 'You needn't think you're going to bring that murderer to South Down'.

Ms McArdle alleged that Mr Wells had confronted her later on the same month - she said that Mr Wells had passed her on the first floor of the corridor in parliament buildings and had said to her, "there's the murderer herself".

Mr Wells admits calling Ms McArdle a monster adviser but denies calling her a murderer.
Last week the former assembly standards commissioner Tom Frawley decided Mr Wells had not shown the women enough respect.



So he called a convicted murder a murderer, apparently - is that it?
And Catriona Ruane is accusing him of being anti-Catholic, anti-Nationalist and a misogynist - am I missing something here? I wouldn't consider Wells to be a very likeable individual, but I can't understand the fuss over this - or Ruane's response.

Must be something "unparliamentary" about it or he wouldn't have denied calling her a murderer?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Cold tea on November 20, 2012, 03:30:41 PM
I can't understand this move against Jim Wells.

MLAs reject attempt to exclude DUP's Jim Wells
By Gareth Gordon
BBC NI political correspondent
 
The Assembly has rejected an attempt to exclude the DUP MLA Jim Wells from the chamber for a week.

The sanction had been suggested by a Stormont committee after Mr Wells refused to apologise for comments he made to Mary McArdle, former adviser to the Culture Minister Caral Ni Chuilin.

Ms McArdle was convicted for her part in the 1984 murder of magistrate's daughter Mary Travers.

The motion was defeated by 51 votes to 49.

Mr Wells made the comments last year when the controversial appointment of Ms McArdle was in the headlines.

Ms McArdle had been convicted for her part in the shooting of the young school teacher.

Mary Travers, 22, was shot as she left Mass at Derryvolgie, Belfast, with her father, magistrate Tom Travers. Ms McArdle was sentenced to a life term and was released under the Good Friday Agreement.

She has since left the adviser post and been replaced by Jarlath Kearney, a former journalist who has worked as a Sinn Fein policy adviser.

In two separate encounters last summer Mr Wells made his views known face-to-face and vehemently to the minister and her then adviser.

Kieran McCarthy, deputy chair of the standards and privileges committee, said Ms Ni Chuilin claimed Mr Wells behaved in an aggressive and threatening manner telling her 'You needn't think you're going to bring that murderer to South Down'.

Ms McArdle alleged that Mr Wells had confronted her later on the same month - she said that Mr Wells had passed her on the first floor of the corridor in parliament buildings and had said to her, "there's the murderer herself".

Mr Wells admits calling Ms McArdle a monster adviser but denies calling her a murderer.

Last week the former assembly standards commissioner Tom Frawley decided Mr Wells had not shown the women enough respect.



So he called a convicted murder a murderer, apparently - is that it?
And Catriona Ruane is accusing him of being anti-Catholic, anti-Nationalist and a misogynist - am I missing something here? I wouldn't consider Wells to be a very likeable individual, but I can't understand the fuss over this - or Ruane's response.
I think Ruane's discription would be fairly on the money. Jim is very much on the Nelson wing of the DUP. He performs well when talking on health, but Killkeel is not a bastion of reconcilliation. That said the outcome of this debate was predictable and I suspect it was more about point scoring than an apology. It just shows you the level of politics in the North. All the issues we have with the economy and MLA's still waste time on shit like this, marches etc. Plus Ca Change I believe the French would say. (I can't manage the dangly bit on the C pefore the French Grammar Police take isssue.)

Shurely you mean a "cedille" or "cedilla" ;)

Ah the old spelling mistakes by design as well as the constant exclusion of any punctuation!!!  Redner and take kid! 
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: AQMP on November 20, 2012, 03:34:34 PM
Will someone else tell him or will I?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on November 20, 2012, 07:55:23 PM
I can't understand this move against Jim Wells.

MLAs reject attempt to exclude DUP's Jim Wells
By Gareth Gordon
BBC NI political correspondent
 
The Assembly has rejected an attempt to exclude the DUP MLA Jim Wells from the chamber for a week.

The sanction had been suggested by a Stormont committee after Mr Wells refused to apologise for comments he made to Mary McArdle, former adviser to the Culture Minister Caral Ni Chuilin.

Ms McArdle was convicted for her part in the 1984 murder of magistrate's daughter Mary Travers.

The motion was defeated by 51 votes to 49.

Mr Wells made the comments last year when the controversial appointment of Ms McArdle was in the headlines.

Ms McArdle had been convicted for her part in the shooting of the young school teacher.

Mary Travers, 22, was shot as she left Mass at Derryvolgie, Belfast, with her father, magistrate Tom Travers. Ms McArdle was sentenced to a life term and was released under the Good Friday Agreement.

She has since left the adviser post and been replaced by Jarlath Kearney, a former journalist who has worked as a Sinn Fein policy adviser.

In two separate encounters last summer Mr Wells made his views known face-to-face and vehemently to the minister and her then adviser.

Kieran McCarthy, deputy chair of the standards and privileges committee, said Ms Ni Chuilin claimed Mr Wells behaved in an aggressive and threatening manner telling her 'You needn't think you're going to bring that murderer to South Down'.

Ms McArdle alleged that Mr Wells had confronted her later on the same month - she said that Mr Wells had passed her on the first floor of the corridor in parliament buildings and had said to her, "there's the murderer herself".

Mr Wells admits calling Ms McArdle a monster adviser but denies calling her a murderer.

Last week the former assembly standards commissioner Tom Frawley decided Mr Wells had not shown the women enough respect.



So he called a convicted murder a murderer, apparently - is that it?
And Catriona Ruane is accusing him of being anti-Catholic, anti-Nationalist and a misogynist - am I missing something here? I wouldn't consider Wells to be a very likeable individual, but I can't understand the fuss over this - or Ruane's response.
I think Ruane's discription would be fairly on the money. Jim is very much on the Nelson wing of the DUP. He performs well when talking on health, but Killkeel is not a bastion of reconcilliation. That said the outcome of this debate was predictable and I suspect it was more about point scoring than an apology. It just shows you the level of politics in the North. All the issues we have with the economy and MLA's still waste time on shit like this, marches etc. Plus Ca Change I believe the French would say. (I can't manage the dangly bit on the C pefore the French Grammar Police take isssue.)
On what basis? What did he say here that could be construed as anti-Catholic, anti-Nationalist or misogynistic?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: fitzroyalty on November 20, 2012, 08:45:26 PM
Why did mr wells not make similar comments to male members of SF with similar convictions?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on November 20, 2012, 09:06:04 PM
Why did mr wells not make similar comments to male members of SF with similar convictions?
What SPADs in particular are you referring to?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on November 21, 2012, 11:02:03 AM
Seriously worried about the lack of a strong nationalist/republican party, shinners and the stoops are Peter's lapdogs. Not one inch of parity of esteem has followed from the GFA and no sign of a UI in the next 100 years...well done guys.

What exactly are you doing to gain "parity of esteem" or advance the cause of UI?

thats what we vote sf for. they need to keep at it. good to hear them call for the release of Marian Price though. thought they should have been a lot more vocal during the summer around parades and bonfires etc.
Fc*K Marian Price she is a dissident. What about proper representation .
Clown.
Happy to be a clown but Ms Price wants to drag us back to war, and no one I know wants to go there.
You talk on one hand about decent representation and parity of esteem and on the other, show a total ignorance of learning from the past by supporting internment without trial. Glad you're happy being a clown because you're nothing more.
This is not internment, she new what she was doing by consorting with dissidents therefore breaking the terms of her licence which were negotiated as part of the GFA by Sinn Fein. I would look in the mirror before calling anyone names.

She was never released on licence, which makes your claim (and that of your ally, the former British SoS) that she broke the terms of "her licence" a bit odd. She was granted a scaled "royal pardon" which was conveniently "lost or destroyed". The only occurrence of this in recent history in fact.

It is clear cut internment. With an attitude like yours, you'd fit right in at the NIO. Amazing inability to learn from the past and shocking for someone who claims to want "parity of esteem" etc to be so willing to make excuses for a British minister interning people in Ireland.

http://www.BBC.co.UK/news/uk-northern-ireland-17071818 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17071818)
Former prison chaplain Monsignor Raymond Murray said Mr Paterson's decision had echoes of the past for nationalists.
"This is a form of internment," said Monsignor Murray, who was prison chaplain in Armagh for almost 20 years. "I am just shocked that the secretary of state wouldn't be aware of how seriously nationalist people look on internment. We thought it had all ended and here it is coming under a form of revocation, revoking a license. He would have to explain to us and explain the process of law as regards Marian Price. In any way has she broken the law? That would have to be provided but it is not provided by shoving her into prison on a pretence in an unjust way."

Brilliant!! A Republican accepting a Royal pardon, whatever happened to her Republican principles. whatever way you dress it up Sinn Fein need to cut the cord with these dissidents and put them where they belong...in jail, time to move on. We were promised a push towards  unity this will not be achieved by given succour to Price and her likes.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on November 21, 2012, 11:04:20 AM
I can't understand this move against Jim Wells.

MLAs reject attempt to exclude DUP's Jim Wells
By Gareth Gordon
BBC NI political correspondent
 
The Assembly has rejected an attempt to exclude the DUP MLA Jim Wells from the chamber for a week.

The sanction had been suggested by a Stormont committee after Mr Wells refused to apologise for comments he made to Mary McArdle, former adviser to the Culture Minister Caral Ni Chuilin.

Ms McArdle was convicted for her part in the 1984 murder of magistrate's daughter Mary Travers.

The motion was defeated by 51 votes to 49.

Mr Wells made the comments last year when the controversial appointment of Ms McArdle was in the headlines.

Ms McArdle had been convicted for her part in the shooting of the young school teacher.

Mary Travers, 22, was shot as she left Mass at Derryvolgie, Belfast, with her father, magistrate Tom Travers. Ms McArdle was sentenced to a life term and was released under the Good Friday Agreement.

She has since left the adviser post and been replaced by Jarlath Kearney, a former journalist who has worked as a Sinn Fein policy adviser.

In two separate encounters last summer Mr Wells made his views known face-to-face and vehemently to the minister and her then adviser.

Kieran McCarthy, deputy chair of the standards and privileges committee, said Ms Ni Chuilin claimed Mr Wells behaved in an aggressive and threatening manner telling her 'You needn't think you're going to bring that murderer to South Down'.

Ms McArdle alleged that Mr Wells had confronted her later on the same month - she said that Mr Wells had passed her on the first floor of the corridor in parliament buildings and had said to her, "there's the murderer herself".

Mr Wells admits calling Ms McArdle a monster adviser but denies calling her a murderer.

Last week the former assembly standards commissioner Tom Frawley decided Mr Wells had not shown the women enough respect.



So he called a convicted murder a murderer, apparently - is that it?
And Catriona Ruane is accusing him of being anti-Catholic, anti-Nationalist and a misogynist - am I missing something here? I wouldn't consider Wells to be a very likeable individual, but I can't understand the fuss over this - or Ruane's response.
I think Ruane's discription would be fairly on the money. Jim is very much on the Nelson wing of the DUP. He performs well when talking on health, but Killkeel is not a bastion of reconcilliation. That said the outcome of this debate was predictable and I suspect it was more about point scoring than an apology. It just shows you the level of politics in the North. All the issues we have with the economy and MLA's still waste time on shit like this, marches etc. Plus Ca Change I believe the French would say. (I can't manage the dangly bit on the C pefore the French Grammar Police take isssue.)

Shurely you mean a "cedille" or "cedilla" ;)
Thanks for that French isn't my thing.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on November 21, 2012, 11:17:57 AM
Seriously worried about the lack of a strong nationalist/republican party, shinners and the stoops are Peter's lapdogs. Not one inch of parity of esteem has followed from the GFA and no sign of a UI in the next 100 years...well done guys.

What exactly are you doing to gain "parity of esteem" or advance the cause of UI?

thats what we vote sf for. they need to keep at it. good to hear them call for the release of Marian Price though. thought they should have been a lot more vocal during the summer around parades and bonfires etc.
Fc*K Marian Price she is a dissident. What about proper representation .
Clown.
Happy to be a clown but Ms Price wants to drag us back to war, and no one I know wants to go there.
You talk on one hand about decent representation and parity of esteem and on the other, show a total ignorance of learning from the past by supporting internment without trial. Glad you're happy being a clown because you're nothing more.
This is not internment, she new what she was doing by consorting with dissidents therefore breaking the terms of her licence which were negotiated as part of the GFA by Sinn Fein. I would look in the mirror before calling anyone names.

She was never released on licence, which makes your claim (and that of your ally, the former British SoS) that she broke the terms of "her licence" a bit odd. She was granted a scaled "royal pardon" which was conveniently "lost or destroyed". The only occurrence of this in recent history in fact.

It is clear cut internment. With an attitude like yours, you'd fit right in at the NIO. Amazing inability to learn from the past and shocking for someone who claims to want "parity of esteem" etc to be so willing to make excuses for a British minister interning people in Ireland.

http://www.BBC.co.UK/news/uk-northern-ireland-17071818 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17071818)
Former prison chaplain Monsignor Raymond Murray said Mr Paterson's decision had echoes of the past for nationalists.
"This is a form of internment," said Monsignor Murray, who was prison chaplain in Armagh for almost 20 years. "I am just shocked that the secretary of state wouldn't be aware of how seriously nationalist people look on internment. We thought it had all ended and here it is coming under a form of revocation, revoking a license. He would have to explain to us and explain the process of law as regards Marian Price. In any way has she broken the law? That would have to be provided but it is not provided by shoving her into prison on a pretence in an unjust way."

Brilliant!! A Republican accepting a Royal pardon, whatever happened to her Republican principles. whatever way you dress it up Sinn Fein need to cut the cord with these dissidents and put them where they belong...in jail, time to move on. We were promised a push towards  unity this will not be achieved by given succour to Price and her likes.
So she should have stayed in jail on a point of principle because her release was called a "royal" pardon? What age are you if that's the best you can come up with as a retort to my points?

I repeat...you claim she broke the terms of her early release licence. She never received such a licence. She was RELEASED. She has not committed any crime since, therefor her current situation is simply a case of INTERNMENT no matter how much you like to deny it and no matter how often you obediently trot out the lies of a Tory secretary of state. Your continued support for the policy of internment is staggering. Those who do not learn the lessons of the past are destined to repeat it.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on November 21, 2012, 12:01:59 PM
Murphy hits out at abuse of legal process in Price, McGeough and Corey cases

Speaking in London last night, Sinn Fein MP Conor Murphy hit out at the behaviour of the British government in the continuing imprisonment of Marian Price, Martin Corey and Gerry McGeough.


...
Conor Murphy was speaking at a public meeting in Westminster, on a panel which included Fianna Fáil TD Eamon O'Cúiv, British Labour MP John McDonnell, former Armagh prison chaplain Fr Raymond Murray, and prisoners campaigner Moya St Leger.



Addressing the Price and Corey cases, Mr Murphy said:

"These two people should be released immediately. Their detention without trial and due process is unjust and runs contrary to natural justice. They are detained on the basis of secret allegations by British intelligence agencies, which they are unable to challenge, contest or refute. Everyone is entitled to due process and to a fair trial Marian Price and Martin Corey are being denied this. This represents a serious breach of their human rights and their continued imprisonment undermines the justice system. We are against the use of ‘revocation of licences’ as a substitute for due process.

On the continued imprisonment of Gerry McGeough, Conor Murphy said:

"Sinn Féin believes that Gerry McGeough should not have been arrested, should not therefore be in prison and should be released immediately. We have made this position clear publicly on many occasions since Gerry’s arrest, including during the course of many meetings with both the British and Irish governments. Several of our MLAs have visited the prisoners in Maghaberry many times over the course of the past two years.

“They have met with Gerry McGeough and discussed his predicament. They have repeated our position to him personally. Indeed, during these visits Gerry has expressed his appreciation for the efforts Sinn Féin has made on his behalf. Most recently Sinn Féin tabled motions at a number of Councils, north and south, calling for his release".
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on November 21, 2012, 09:32:57 PM
gerry totally ineffectual today in the dail as eejit kenny continues to make a laughing stock out of the nation in front of the world meejah. jeez what does he want kenny is putting his head on the block and all he has to do is pull the lever! o caolin would have took him apart..
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Evil Genius on November 22, 2012, 11:50:18 PM
Murphy hits out at abuse of legal process blah blah blah
Are there two Conor Murphys in SF?

Or is the one blethering about "abuse of legal process" (above) the same individual as this bigot?

Alan Lennon case: Protestant job applicant to receive £150,000

The man discriminated against by the former Sinn Fein minister Conor Murphy for a top job at Northern Ireland Water is to receive £150,000 in damages.

Alan Lennon won a tribunal case against Stormont's Department for Regional Development (DRD) in June.

It ruled he had been overlooked for the post because he was a Protestant.

Mr Lennon has now agreed a compensation settlement which is equivalent to three years salary for the chair of NIW, the job he had applied for.

He said: "I took the case primarily to challenge what I believe to be serious flaws in the public appointments system and the level of compensation agreed marks the seriousness of what occurred.

"I hope that this will result in a more transparent and equitable public appointments process."

Deciding Mr Lennon was discriminated against, the tribunal believed Mr Murphy - DRD minister at the time and now MP for Newry and Armagh - also broke the code of practice for appointments.

In March 2011, Mr Murphy appointed a Catholic as chairman, Sean Hogan, ahead of four others shortlisted after interview, all of them Protestants.

According to the tribunal, Mr Hogan was selected because "he was not from a Protestant background and because he was known to the minister and his (then Sinn Fein) ministerial colleagues", Michelle Gildernew and Caitriona Ruane, who were consulted about the appointment.


Mr Murphy strongly disputes the tribunal's findings which he claimed branded him as "sectarian".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20451694


Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Evil Genius on November 23, 2012, 12:50:16 AM

Brilliant!! A Republican accepting a Royal pardon, whatever happened to her Republican principles. whatever way you dress it up Sinn Fein need to cut the cord with these dissidents and put them where they belong...in jail, time to move on.
Now to be fair to the murderous oul bitch, Price is hardly alone amongst Republicans in ditching her principles when it suits...


Published on Saturday 13 October 2012
SF back ‘Lough is in UK’ pipe lobby

A SINN Féin delegation including Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness and MEP Martina Anderson has lent support to a Moville campaign group, which wants the whole of Lough Foyle to remain as British as Finchley unless border negotiations can secure protective clauses to prevent a sewerage pipeline being extended hundreds of metres into the waterway.
(Read more at: http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/lifestyle/entertainment/very-l-derry/sf-back-lough-is-in-uk-pipe-lobby-1-4325467 )

Since ye couldn't make it up, isn't it great that with this bunch of hypocrites, we don't have to!  ;D

Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: fitzroyalty on November 23, 2012, 10:41:04 AM
Clutching at straws there to be fair EG. Did you even read your own article?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Saffrongael on November 23, 2012, 07:41:47 PM
Shinners always yapping about other parties and politicians wasting money, tax payer suffering blah blah, not a word on the expected £400k bill for the tax payer from the discrimination tribunal.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on November 23, 2012, 09:20:18 PM
connor murphy has said he didnt know what religion mr lennon was. all the lennons i know are catholics.. i dont know how deciding to give the job to any one of the candidates and not to all of them could have prevented this type of scenario
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on November 23, 2012, 10:56:37 PM
Shinners always yapping about other parties and politicians wasting money, tax payer suffering blah blah, not a word on the expected £400k bill for the tax payer from the discrimination tribunal.

Always yapping yourself ffs change the record you gurn
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Saffrongael on November 23, 2012, 11:10:17 PM
Shinners always yapping about other parties and politicians wasting money, tax payer suffering blah blah, not a word on the expected £400k bill for the tax payer from the discrimination tribunal.

Always yapping yourself ffs change the record you gurn

Didnt think you would want to talk about this episode, hardly surprising. You are quick enough with the cut and paste with SF statements any other time, loyal little lackey that you are.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on November 23, 2012, 11:16:02 PM
Shinners always yapping about other parties and politicians wasting money, tax payer suffering blah blah, not a word on the expected £400k bill for the tax payer from the discrimination tribunal.

Always yapping yourself ffs change the record you gurn

Didnt think you would want to talk about this episode, hardly surprising. You are quick enough with the cut and paste with SF statements any other time, loyal little lackey that you are.

Sure when you get an answer you can't respond to,you run off like the rest of you cronies do.Away and get them Shinners to change the weather as it's very cold.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Saffrongael on November 23, 2012, 11:22:56 PM
Shinners always yapping about other parties and politicians wasting money, tax payer suffering blah blah, not a word on the expected £400k bill for the tax payer from the discrimination tribunal.

Always yapping yourself ffs change the record you gurn

Didnt think you would want to talk about this episode, hardly surprising. You are quick enough with the cut and paste with SF statements any other time, loyal little lackey that you are.

Sure when you get an answer you can't respond to,you run off like the rest of you cronies do.Away and get them Shinners to change the weather as it's very cold.

Yea that was a real show stopper from you there. So it wasn't Sinn Feins fault the tax payer has a £400,000 tab ?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Ulick on November 23, 2012, 11:26:53 PM
DRD have been legally advised to appeal. If you are so upset about the £150k maybe you should write to the UUP DRD Minister Danny Kennedy and ask him why he is defying the legal advice. Obviously nothing to do with playing Party politics with taxpayers money?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on November 23, 2012, 11:31:31 PM
Shinners always yapping about other parties and politicians wasting money, tax payer suffering blah blah, not a word on the expected £400k bill for the tax payer from the discrimination tribunal.

Always yapping yourself ffs change the record you gurn

Saff don't let Martin Og hear you complaining about SF costing the tax payer £400k or you will get expelled

Didnt think you would want to talk about this episode, hardly surprising. You are quick enough with the cut and paste with SF statements any other time, loyal little lackey that you are.

Sure when you get an answer you can't respond to,you run off like the rest of you cronies do.Away and get them Shinners to change the weather as it's very cold.

Yea that was a real show stopper from you there. So it wasn't Sinn Feins fault the tax payer has a £400,000 tab ?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on November 23, 2012, 11:38:23 PM
DRD have been legally advised to appeal. If you are so upset about the £150k maybe you should write to the UUP DRD Minister Danny Kennedy and ask him why he is defying the legal advice. Obviously nothing to do with playing Party politics with taxpayers money?

Ffs it's saffrongael that's posting,he is under orders from Martin Og who wouldn't know what DRD is
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on November 26, 2012, 10:52:44 AM
I don't believe for one minute that Conor Murphy is sectarian. I do believe he and his Department messed up the selection process which
gave the opportunity to others to portray him as such. I don't know about the possibility of grounds for appeal without seeing the evidence. However one thing is for sure Danny Kennedy wasn't going to miss an opportunity to make it look like Murphy is a bigot.

In relation to Dissident Republican Prisoners, SF need to take a step back, many in the broader Catholic community do not like the ease with which they take up the causes of these people. Lets face it the most high profile victims of all this dissident activity has been to GAA members, one an Irish Speaker, and a Catholic police officer. A bit like the DUP and the OO time to stop riding two horses.

AS evidenced at the DUP conference, and in various opinion polls many Catholics now support the union. SF's populist stance on many issues and it's reluctance to abandon left wing ideology makes victory in any border poll unlikely. A growing catholic middle class has stopped voting or is drifting towards alliance. Parity of esteem is as far away as ever. If the SDLP had proper united leadership and some clear ideas they would wipe the floor with SF, unforunately they don't. All the Republican rhetoric, and abusive comments from the SF element on this board can not hide the fact that SF's policies on unity are in tatters. 
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on November 26, 2012, 11:22:04 AM
I don't believe for one minute that Conor Murphy is sectarian. I do believe he and his Department messed up the selection process which
gave the opportunity to others to portray him as such. I don't know about the possibility of grounds for appeal without seeing the evidence. However one thing is for sure Danny Kennedy wasn't going to miss an opportunity to make it look like Murphy is a bigot.

In relation to Dissident Republican Prisoners, SF need to take a step back, many in the broader Catholic community do not like the ease with which they take up the causes of these people. Lets face it the most high profile victims of all this dissident activity has been to GAA members, one an Irish Speaker, and a Catholic police officer. A bit like the DUP and the OO time to stop riding two horses.

AS evidenced at the DUP conference, and in various opinion polls many Catholics now support the union. SF's populist stance on many issues and it's reluctance to abandon left wing ideology makes victory in any border poll unlikely. A growing catholic middle class has stopped voting or is drifting towards alliance. Parity of esteem is as far away as ever. If the SDLP had proper united leadership and some clear ideas they would wipe the floor with SF, unforunately they don't. All the Republican rhetoric, and abusive comments from the SF element on this board can not hide the fact that SF's policies on unity are in tatters.

The broad nationalist community would also be highly uncomfortable with internment, too. Something you are clearly not all that bothered about if your recent comments on this thread are anything to go by.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: charlieTully on November 26, 2012, 01:27:41 PM
I don't believe for one minute that Conor Murphy is sectarian. I do believe he and his Department messed up the selection process which
gave the opportunity to others to portray him as such. I don't know about the possibility of grounds for appeal without seeing the evidence. However one thing is for sure Danny Kennedy wasn't going to miss an opportunity to make it look like Murphy is a bigot.

In relation to Dissident Republican Prisoners, SF need to take a step back, many in the broader Catholic community do not like the ease with which they take up the causes of these people. Lets face it the most high profile victims of all this dissident activity has been to GAA members, one an Irish Speaker, and a Catholic police officer. A bit like the DUP and the OO time to stop riding two horses.

AS evidenced at the DUP conference, and in various opinion polls many Catholics now support the union. SF's populist stance on many issues and it's reluctance to abandon left wing ideology makes victory in any border poll unlikely. A growing catholic middle class has stopped voting or is drifting towards alliance. Parity of esteem is as far away as ever. If the SDLP had proper united leadership and some clear ideas they would wipe the floor with SF, unforunately they don't. All the Republican rhetoric, and abusive comments from the SF element on this board can not hide the fact that SF's policies on unity are in tatters.

'As evidenced at the DUP conference'.. was peter delivering the results of a border poll or offering his opinion?. could you please provide evidence of the various opinion polls that many catholics now support the union.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on November 26, 2012, 01:29:52 PM
I don't believe for one minute that Conor Murphy is sectarian. I do believe he and his Department messed up the selection process which
gave the opportunity to others to portray him as such. I don't know about the possibility of grounds for appeal without seeing the evidence. However one thing is for sure Danny Kennedy wasn't going to miss an opportunity to make it look like Murphy is a bigot.

In relation to Dissident Republican Prisoners, SF need to take a step back, many in the broader Catholic community do not like the ease with which they take up the causes of these people. Lets face it the most high profile victims of all this dissident activity has been to GAA members, one an Irish Speaker, and a Catholic police officer. A bit like the DUP and the OO time to stop riding two horses.

AS evidenced at the DUP conference, and in various opinion polls many Catholics now support the union. SF's populist stance on many issues and it's reluctance to abandon left wing ideology makes victory in any border poll unlikely. A growing catholic middle class has stopped voting or is drifting towards alliance. Parity of esteem is as far away as ever. If the SDLP had proper united leadership and some clear ideas they would wipe the floor with SF, unforunately they don't. All the Republican rhetoric, and abusive comments from the SF element on this board can not hide the fact that SF's policies on unity are in tatters.

The broad nationalist community would also be highly uncomfortable with internment, too. Something you are clearly not all that bothered about if your recent comments on this thread are anything to go by.
It isn't internment, and these anti agreement dissidents must pay for their support for those Martin McGuinness referred to as traitors.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on November 26, 2012, 01:33:15 PM
I don't believe for one minute that Conor Murphy is sectarian. I do believe he and his Department messed up the selection process which
gave the opportunity to others to portray him as such. I don't know about the possibility of grounds for appeal without seeing the evidence. However one thing is for sure Danny Kennedy wasn't going to miss an opportunity to make it look like Murphy is a bigot.

In relation to Dissident Republican Prisoners, SF need to take a step back, many in the broader Catholic community do not like the ease with which they take up the causes of these people. Lets face it the most high profile victims of all this dissident activity has been to GAA members, one an Irish Speaker, and a Catholic police officer. A bit like the DUP and the OO time to stop riding two horses.

AS evidenced at the DUP conference, and in various opinion polls many Catholics now support the union. SF's populist stance on many issues and it's reluctance to abandon left wing ideology makes victory in any border poll unlikely. A growing catholic middle class has stopped voting or is drifting towards alliance. Parity of esteem is as far away as ever. If the SDLP had proper united leadership and some clear ideas they would wipe the floor with SF, unforunately they don't. All the Republican rhetoric, and abusive comments from the SF element on this board can not hide the fact that SF's policies on unity are in tatters.

The broad nationalist community would also be highly uncomfortable with internment, too. Something you are clearly not all that bothered about if your recent comments on this thread are anything to go by.
It isn't internment, and these anti agreement dissidents must pay for their support for those Martin McGuinness referred to as traitors.
Please explain to me how Marion Price is not being interned.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on November 26, 2012, 01:41:17 PM
I don't believe for one minute that Conor Murphy is sectarian. I do believe he and his Department messed up the selection process which
gave the opportunity to others to portray him as such. I don't know about the possibility of grounds for appeal without seeing the evidence. However one thing is for sure Danny Kennedy wasn't going to miss an opportunity to make it look like Murphy is a bigot.

In relation to Dissident Republican Prisoners, SF need to take a step back, many in the broader Catholic community do not like the ease with which they take up the causes of these people. Lets face it the most high profile victims of all this dissident activity has been to GAA members, one an Irish Speaker, and a Catholic police officer. A bit like the DUP and the OO time to stop riding two horses.

AS evidenced at the DUP conference, and in various opinion polls many Catholics now support the union. SF's populist stance on many issues and it's reluctance to abandon left wing ideology makes victory in any border poll unlikely. A growing catholic middle class has stopped voting or is drifting towards alliance. Parity of esteem is as far away as ever. If the SDLP had proper united leadership and some clear ideas they would wipe the floor with SF, unforunately they don't. All the Republican rhetoric, and abusive comments from the SF element on this board can not hide the fact that SF's policies on unity are in tatters.

'As evidenced at the DUP conference'.. was peter delivering the results of a border poll or offering his opinion?. could you please provide evidence of the various opinion polls that many catholics now support the union.
OK Robinson was quoting polls, they have been widely publicized and whilst not definitive it is fair to say they are fairly indicative of where we are.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: armaghniac on November 26, 2012, 03:54:11 PM
Quote
could you please provide evidence of the various opinion polls that many catholics now support the union.

You only have to look as posters on this board, most of whom come from a "Catholic" background in NI terms.

But for a more systematic survey
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2010/Political_Attitudes/NIRELND2.html

Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: charlieTully on November 26, 2012, 04:08:35 PM
Quote
could you please provide evidence of the various opinion polls that many catholics now support the union.

You only have to look as posters on this board, most of whom come from a "Catholic" background in NI terms.

But for a more systematic survey
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2010/Political_Attitudes/NIRELND2.html

a survey of 1205 people. thats me convinced, cheers.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: armaghniac on November 26, 2012, 04:46:41 PM
Quote
a survey of 1205 people. thats me convinced, cheers.

Good, 1205 is actually a rather large sample for a properly structured survey.

Of course with such surveys, it is largely a case of what exact question you ask.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Evil Genius on November 27, 2012, 12:22:45 PM
I don't believe for one minute that Conor Murphy is sectarian.
"Don't believe" or "don't want to believe"?

You see, the facts are that Murphy chose the sole RC applicant, over 4 other Protestant applicants, at least one of whom was obviously better qualified.

And when an independent, qualified and experienced Fair Employment Tribunal carefully examined the situation, they refuted eg Murphy's assertion that he was unaware of the overlooked Candidate's religious background, and pointed out that the successful applicant was personally well-known to Murphy and senior SF colleagues.

On the basis of this and other factors, they determined unequivocally that Murphy's actions were motived by by religious/ sectarian considerations. And I think it not coincidental that despite Murphy's protests that he is not sectarian etc, neither he nor his Party has done anything to get this verdict overturned, nor demonstrate why it was incorrect.

Yet even in the face of this clear and unambiguous evidence, you remain prepared to give Murphy a "bye-ball".

This contrasts starkly with your comments on the "Dissidents" thread, where you disgracefully linked by implication the family of the murdered Prison Officer and OO member, Mr. Black, to Loyalist terrorists etc, despite confessing that you "... have no specfic evidence that the Black family have had interaction with loyalist paramilitary elements etc"
[I note that you were careful to use the word "specific", when you might have excluded it completely  ::)]

So why the contrasting standards of proof?

I do believe he and his Department messed up the selection process which gave the opportunity to others to portray him as such. I don't know about the possibility of grounds for appeal without seeing the evidence. However one thing is for sure Danny Kennedy wasn't going to miss an opportunity to make it look like Murphy is a bigot.
Ah, he "messed up", and his Department, too. Poor, misguided lambs.
Why, you could almost call Murphy "unfortunate", were it not for the inconvenient fact that the Tribunal unambiguously found that his was a case of bad faith (i.e. sectarianism), rather than simple incompetence...

I don't know about the possibility of grounds for appeal without seeing the evidence.
If you need evidence, why don't you read the Tribunal's findings? They had all the evidence they needed to conclude that Murphy's actions were motivated by sectarianism.

However one thing is for sure Danny Kennedy wasn't going to miss an opportunity to make it look like Murphy is a bigot.
Danny Kennedy didn't force Conor Murphy to act as he did. Nor is it his responsibility to absolve Murphy from such claims.

Quite simply, if Murphy doesn't want to look like a bigot, he should stop behaving like one.  >:(
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: armaghniac on November 27, 2012, 01:15:40 PM
Quote
Quite simply, if Murphy doesn't want to look like a bigot, he should stop behaving like one.

Good advice for anyone, EG. Maybe take it to heart?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Evil Genius on November 27, 2012, 02:30:39 PM
Quote
Quite simply, if Murphy doesn't want to look like a bigot, he should stop behaving like one.

Good advice for anyone, EG. Maybe take it to heart?
I certainly try my best [bold, not least since I wouldn't like to be found a bigot by a qualified organisation such as an Employment Tribunal.

A petty keyboard warrior, sniping from the touchline, is another matter, mind...  ::)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: naka on November 27, 2012, 02:44:35 PM
interesting wee spack between shinners sdlp and dup over the cuts,
the guys try to play real politics every so often but the tribal tendencies always seem to get in the way.

reality is the cuts will be voted through because we need the block grant because of the bloated public sector and welfare state.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: charlieTully on November 27, 2012, 02:57:38 PM
interesting wee spack between shinners sdlp and dup over the cuts,
the guys try to play real politics every so often but the tribal tendencies always seem to get in the way.

reality is the cuts will be voted through because we need the block grant because of the bloated public sector and welfare state.

they could always try cutting the amount spent on unelected quangos.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: deiseach on November 27, 2012, 02:59:34 PM
they could always try cutting the amount spent on unelected quangos.

AKA the peace dividend ;)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on November 27, 2012, 04:45:33 PM
interesting wee spack between shinners sdlp and dup over the cuts,
the guys try to play real politics every so often but the tribal tendencies always seem to get in the way.

reality is the cuts will be voted through because we need the block grant because of the bloated public sector and welfare state.

they could always try cutting the amount spent on unelected quangos.
Or the amount spent on 161 Press Officers at Stormont.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: charlieTully on November 27, 2012, 05:36:44 PM
interesting wee spack between shinners sdlp and dup over the cuts,
the guys try to play real politics every so often but the tribal tendencies always seem to get in the way.

reality is the cuts will be voted through because we need the block grant because of the bloated public sector and welfare state.

they could always try cutting the amount spent on unelected quangos.
Or the amount spent on 161 Press Officers at Stormont.

maybe save another few quid by halving the number of mla's
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on November 29, 2012, 10:59:25 AM
I don't believe for one minute that Conor Murphy is sectarian.
"Don't believe" or "don't want to believe"?

You see, the facts are that Murphy chose the sole RC applicant, over 4 other Protestant applicants, at least one of whom was obviously better qualified.

And when an independent, qualified and experienced Fair Employment Tribunal carefully examined the situation, they refuted eg Murphy's assertion that he was unaware of the overlooked Candidate's religious background, and pointed out that the successful applicant was personally well-known to Murphy and senior SF colleagues.

On the basis of this and other factors, they determined unequivocally that Murphy's actions were motived by by religious/ sectarian considerations. And I think it not coincidental that despite Murphy's protests that he is not sectarian etc, neither he nor his Party has done anything to get this verdict overturned, nor demonstrate why it was incorrect.

Yet even in the face of this clear and unambiguous evidence, you remain prepared to give Murphy a "bye-ball".

This contrasts starkly with your comments on the "Dissidents" thread, where you disgracefully linked by implication the family of the murdered Prison Officer and OO member, Mr. Black, to Loyalist terrorists etc, despite confessing that you "... have no specfic evidence that the Black family have had interaction with loyalist paramilitary elements etc"
[I note that you were careful to use the word "specific", when you might have excluded it completely  ::)]

So why the contrasting standards of proof?

I do believe he and his Department messed up the selection process which gave the opportunity to others to portray him as such. I don't know about the possibility of grounds for appeal without seeing the evidence. However one thing is for sure Danny Kennedy wasn't going to miss an opportunity to make it look like Murphy is a bigot.
Ah, he "messed up", and his Department, too. Poor, misguided lambs.
Why, you could almost call Murphy "unfortunate", were it not for the inconvenient fact that the Tribunal unambiguously found that his was a case of bad faith (i.e. sectarianism), rather than simple incompetence...

I don't know about the possibility of grounds for appeal without seeing the evidence.
If you need evidence, why don't you read the Tribunal's findings? They had all the evidence they needed to conclude that Murphy's actions were motivated by sectarianism.

However one thing is for sure Danny Kennedy wasn't going to miss an opportunity to make it look like Murphy is a bigot.
Danny Kennedy didn't force Conor Murphy to act as he did. Nor is it his responsibility to absolve Murphy from such claims.

Quite simply, if Murphy doesn't want to look like a bigot, he should stop behaving like one.  >:(
EG I don't believe it because I know the man. I am not saying his actions or decisions did not result in this man being discriminated against, but that is a different thing to someone being sectarian. Interview processes are by their nature discriminatory, that's how you arrive at a decision. But that process must be fair. In this case it would appear that the process was not fair. But that is a far cry from the man being a sectarian bigot. You could look a lot closer to your own roots for examples of that.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on November 29, 2012, 11:10:05 AM
Whilst NI is part of the UK we will never really have control over our own economy. Most Unionist turn a blind eye to the fact that the UK government enacts and will continue to act in the interests of the "mainland". Hence we have an approach in Europe to CAP reform which will adversely affect farmers here. Our enconomy and interests lie more closely with the ROI. We need to stop relying on handouts and start accepting responsibility for our own affairs. That does not equate to a United Ireland, it could be a federal arrangement with ties still to Britain akin to Jersey or the IoM. At the moment we are like the married child living in our own home but mum and dad still underwrite the bills. Unfortunately all parties including SF and the SDLP are happy to continue with this, to their shame. Time to grow up and earn our own living.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Rossfan on November 29, 2012, 11:34:51 AM
. At the moment we are like the married child living in our own home but mum and dad still underwrite the bills. Unfortunately all parties including SF and the SDLP are happy to continue with this, to their shame. Time to grow up and earn our own living.

That would mean they would have to make responsible and difficult decisions .....
and sure we couldn't be having that now could we?
They might end up like Labour and Fine Gael then  ::)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on November 29, 2012, 12:24:43 PM
It isn't internment, and these anti agreement dissidents must pay for their support for those Martin McGuinness referred to as traitors.
Please explain to me how Marion Price is not being interned.

Take your time...
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on November 29, 2012, 01:14:31 PM
Ó Snodaigh demands release of republican prisonersNovember 29, 2012

Sinn Féin TD Aengus Ó Snodaigh has called on the Eamon Gilmore to demand of the British Government an end of the internment without trial of two Irish citizens in the Six Counties and to honour the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement and Weston Park Agreement and release two other Irish citizens being held in Maghaberry Prison in the North.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh was part of a cross party delegation which visited a number of republican prisoners in Maghaberry Prison and Marion Price who is currently being detained in the City Hospital. The delegation also met with the North’s Minister for Justice David Ford.

Both Marion Price and Martin Corey are being held without charge, sentence or release dates.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh said;

“It is the judicial norms in a democratic society that those arrested would be charged or released but the British government has once again, in its dealings with Ireland, violated the basic rights of Irish citizens.

“I call on the British Government to act now and release both Marion Price and Martin Corey. Eamon Gilmore should contact the British Government directly to make this demand on behalf of the Irish Government.”

In relation to two of the other prisoners whom the delegation met, Gerry McGeough and Gary Adams, Ó Snodaigh called for their immediate release and reminded the British and Irish government that both qualify for release under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement and Weston Park. One of the men is seriously ill having had a 7th stent inserted in his heart only this week.

Ó Snodaigh said;

“Failure to release Gerry McGeough and Gary Adams is a breach of commitment made during the peace process by both governments and they should be released without any further delay.

“That these men are in jail, away from their families and friends without any release date, is feeding anti-peace process sentiment in some quarters and is an insult to those who endorsed the Good Friday Agreement 14 years ago.” ENDS
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on November 29, 2012, 06:02:53 PM
It isn't internment, and these anti agreement dissidents must pay for their support for those Martin McGuinness referred to as traitors.
Please explain to me how Marion Price is not being interned.

Take your time...
I don't need to explain, it's a fact. But sure you will twist it to suit anyway. If it was so clear cut the courts would have let her out, you know those courts that Sinn Fein now support, with the crowns on the coat of arms.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on November 29, 2012, 06:31:29 PM
It isn't internment, and these anti agreement dissidents must pay for their support for those Martin McGuinness referred to as traitors.
Please explain to me how Marion Price is not being interned.

Take your time...
I don't need to explain, it's a fact. But sure you will twist it to suit anyway. If it was so clear cut the courts would have let her out, you know those courts that Sinn Fein now support, with the crowns on the coat of arms.
If someone is held in prison without crime or trial, it is internment. Go on, just explain to me how Marian Price is not being interned. Less copping out and just explain the detail.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: hardstation on November 29, 2012, 11:43:34 PM
It isn't internment, and these anti agreement dissidents must pay for their support for those Martin McGuinness referred to as traitors.
Please explain to me how Marion Price is not being interned.

Take your time...
I don't need to explain, it's a fact.
It is? Enlighten me please.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on November 30, 2012, 09:18:26 AM
It isn't internment, and these anti agreement dissidents must pay for their support for those Martin McGuinness referred to as traitors.
Please explain to me how Marion Price is not being interned.

Take your time...
I don't need to explain, it's a fact.
It is? Enlighten me please.
There is obviously not going to be agreement here on Price. The point I was making which has become lost in all of this is that SF cannot expect to attract middleclass and more moderate support if they continue to champion dissident causes. If Price is being interned then let her challenge it in the courts. As I said the self same Royal Courts of Justice SF now support.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on November 30, 2012, 09:40:21 AM
Another cop out.

SF cannot expect to attract middleclass and more moderate support if they continue to champion dissident causes.

I'd be more concerned if SF didn't speak out about the internment without trial of an innocent woman..

You have repeatedly stated that Marian Price is not interned. I, and now hardstation, are simply asking you to explain how her situation cannot be termed as internment without trial. Have the courage of your convictions and back up your claim with some sort of rationale, instead of resorting to "we won't agree anyway" and "let her go to court", ffs.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: naka on November 30, 2012, 10:58:05 AM
not a shinner but have to agree that Price and corey have been removed from the streets  which should be construed as internment by the back door.
we shouldnt lambast other regimes and allow this to happen in a supposedly mature democracy
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on November 30, 2012, 11:42:57 AM
not a shinner but have to agree that Price and corey have been removed from the streets  which should be construed as internment by the back door.
we shouldnt lambast other regimes and allow this to happen in a supposedly mature democracy

100% right naka,I have no love for Marion Price and she has a deep hatred of Sinn Fein but we must always stand up and speak out against what is wrong,and this very ill woman is being interned and should be released immediately .
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: theticklemister on November 30, 2012, 12:06:32 PM
not a shinner but have to agree that Price and corey have been removed from the streets  which should be construed as internment by the back door.
we shouldnt lambast other regimes and allow this to happen in a supposedly mature democracy

100% right naka,I have no love for Marion Price and she has a deep hatred of Sinn Fein but we must always stand up and speak out against what is wrong,and this very ill woman is being interned and should be released immediately .

You say you have no love for Marion Price as she has a deep hatred of Sinn Fein. I guarantee ye, ye listen to and sing the song 'Bring Them Home.' Marion has never bent a knee through all these years, I wonder if she was caught with an arm would you still support her status as a POW. I doubt it..
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on November 30, 2012, 12:15:23 PM
not a shinner but have to agree that Price and corey have been removed from the streets  which should be construed as internment by the back door.
we shouldnt lambast other regimes and allow this to happen in a supposedly mature democracy

100% right naka,I have no love for Marion Price and she has a deep hatred of Sinn Fein but we must always stand up and speak out against what is wrong,and this very ill woman is being interned and should be released immediately .

You say you have no love for Marion Price as she has a deep hatred of Sinn Fein. I guarantee ye, ye listen to and sing the song 'Bring Them Home.' Marion has never bent a knee through all these years, I wonder if she was caught with an arm would you still support her status as a POW. I doubt it..

Sorry I didn't say I had no love for her because she has a deep hatred for SF,yes I supported her and her sister when they were on hunger strike in the 70's and I still support her rights now,also i never said she bent a knee so what are you raving about.You don't me to doubt anything as I guarantee I have stood in more protests in support of Marion Price than you could very dream off.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Rossfan on November 30, 2012, 02:54:18 PM
Why aren't these " internments" being challenged in the Courts?
Can they not go straight to the Human Rights Court?
Hope they aren't  still stuck in "Putiry corner" refusing to recognise the Court ?
Does that "Habeus Corpus" thing still not apply in the 6 Cos??
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: charlieTully on November 30, 2012, 03:51:16 PM
Why aren't these " internments" being challenged in the Courts?
Can they not go straight to the Human Rights Court?
Hope they aren't  still stuck in "Putiry corner" refusing to recognise the Court ?
Does that "Habeus Corpus" thing still not apply in the 6 Cos??

martin corey was freed on licence in 1992 but was recalled to prison in April 2010 on the basis of closed material. there was a ruing that his human rights had been breached by keeping him in jail but secretary of state villiers is challenging this and he remains in prison, all based on securocrat "closed material".
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on December 02, 2012, 08:04:44 PM
Why aren't these " internments" being challenged in the Courts?
Can they not go straight to the Human Rights Court?
Hope they aren't  still stuck in "Putiry corner" refusing to recognise the Court ?
Does that "Habeus Corpus" thing still not apply in the 6 Cos??
Exactly if it is illegal then those royal courts of justice, supported by SF would free them.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on December 02, 2012, 10:16:36 PM
Another cop out  ::) Are you a mouthpiece for everything that British Secs of States do or is it just internment that you support?

Please stop yellowing out apples. Just explain your reasoning for your belief that Marian Price is not being interned. If it went to court and you were the judge, how would you dismuss the case that she is being interned? Back up your view with a reason and stop copping out.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on December 03, 2012, 09:45:15 AM
I'm not copping out. It is quite simple if she is being detained illegally let the courts decide, that's what we are meant to do in a democracy. SF though are continuing to pander to the dissidents and as a result they are turning voters off. You can't be half in or out of Government.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on December 03, 2012, 09:55:46 AM
I'm not copping out. It is quite simple if she is being detained illegally let the courts decide, that's what we are meant to do in a democracy. SF though are continuing to pander to the dissidents and as a result they are turning voters off. You can't be half in or out of Government.

You are copping out. You have been repeatedly asked to explain your reasoning and you keep waffling about letting courts decide. Forget about courts for a second. You offered your own PERSONAL opinion that Marion Price is not being interned. I am simply asking you to explain why YOU believe this to be the case. I'm not asking you what Marion Price thinks or what she should do about it. So, putting it as simply as possible, in an effort to get you to finally answer the question:

WHY do YOU think her situation cannot be termed as internment?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on December 03, 2012, 10:09:48 AM
I'm not copping out. It is quite simple if she is being detained illegally let the courts decide, that's what we are meant to do in a democracy. SF though are continuing to pander to the dissidents and as a result they are turning voters off. You can't be half in or out of Government.

ffs Sinn Fein are not pandering to any dissidents,MMG has been very strong along with many others in condemning every thing they do and telling them to do one,but that doesn't mean you stand by when there is an injustice being committed by interning people.That has been the problem in the past people who have buried their heads in the sand to cosy up to the Brits. 
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on December 03, 2012, 10:33:50 AM
I'm not copping out. It is quite simple if she is being detained illegally let the courts decide, that's what we are meant to do in a democracy. SF though are continuing to pander to the dissidents and as a result they are turning voters off. You can't be half in or out of Government.

You are copping out. You have been repeatedly asked to explain your reasoning and you keep waffling about letting courts decide. Forget about courts for a second. You offered your own PERSONAL opinion that Marion Price is not being interned. I am simply asking you to explain why YOU believe this to be the case. I'm not asking you what Marion Price thinks or what she should do about it. So, putting it as simply as possible, in an effort to get you to finally answer the question:

WHY do YOU think her situation cannot be termed as internment?

On the day of judgement, when the souls of the just are summoned to appear before the gates if Heaven, just as God is opening his mouth to proclaim their eternal salvation*, a wee Tyrone fella will interrupt him: "never mind that for a minute ... Applesisapples - when are you going to answer my question?"

(*Disclaimer: there is no evidence that such an event is likely ever to take place or that, if it does, Nally Stand, Applesisapples or myself are likely to be present.)

Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on December 03, 2012, 12:01:22 PM
I'm not copping out. It is quite simple if she is being detained illegally let the courts decide, that's what we are meant to do in a democracy. SF though are continuing to pander to the dissidents and as a result they are turning voters off. You can't be half in or out of Government.

You are copping out. You have been repeatedly asked to explain your reasoning and you keep waffling about letting courts decide. Forget about courts for a second. You offered your own PERSONAL opinion that Marion Price is not being interned. I am simply asking you to explain why YOU believe this to be the case. I'm not asking you what Marion Price thinks or what she should do about it. So, putting it as simply as possible, in an effort to get you to finally answer the question:

WHY do YOU think her situation cannot be termed as internment?
And it is your opinion that she is interned, test it in the courts, you can't get away from this in a civilised society. I don't understand why you are so upset with my opinion, as I said take it to court.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on December 03, 2012, 12:02:30 PM
I'm not copping out. It is quite simple if she is being detained illegally let the courts decide, that's what we are meant to do in a democracy. SF though are continuing to pander to the dissidents and as a result they are turning voters off. You can't be half in or out of Government.

ffs Sinn Fein are not pandering to any dissidents,MMG has been very strong along with many others in condemning every thing they do and telling them to do one,but that doesn't mean you stand by when there is an injustice being committed by interning people.That has been the problem in the past people who have buried their heads in the sand to cosy up to the Brits.
See my reply to Nally.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on December 03, 2012, 12:13:23 PM
I'm not copping out. It is quite simple if she is being detained illegally let the courts decide, that's what we are meant to do in a democracy. SF though are continuing to pander to the dissidents and as a result they are turning voters off. You can't be half in or out of Government.

You are copping out. You have been repeatedly asked to explain your reasoning and you keep waffling about letting courts decide. Forget about courts for a second. You offered your own PERSONAL opinion that Marion Price is not being interned. I am simply asking you to explain why YOU believe this to be the case. I'm not asking you what Marion Price thinks or what she should do about it. So, putting it as simply as possible, in an effort to get you to finally answer the question:

WHY do YOU think her situation cannot be termed as internment?
And it is your opinion that she is interned, test it in the courts, you can't get away from this in a civilised society. I don't understand why you are so upset with my opinion, as I said take it to court.

Your avoidance of the question is fantastical at this stage!!

I think she is interned. My reason for my opinion is that she is held in prison without crime or trial and has never had an early release licence which could have been breached. I am asking you to provide YOUR reason for thinking she is not being interned.

Stop copping out with nonsense about court cases. In your little court case, imagine you were the judge, you would obviously say she is not being interned...what would your reasons be? You said she is not being interned, I just want to know why you believe so. It's really not a complicated question.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on December 03, 2012, 01:20:31 PM
I'm not copping out. It is quite simple if she is being detained illegally let the courts decide, that's what we are meant to do in a democracy. SF though are continuing to pander to the dissidents and as a result they are turning voters off. You can't be half in or out of Government.

You are copping out. You have been repeatedly asked to explain your reasoning and you keep waffling about letting courts decide. Forget about courts for a second. You offered your own PERSONAL opinion that Marion Price is not being interned. I am simply asking you to explain why YOU believe this to be the case. I'm not asking you what Marion Price thinks or what she should do about it. So, putting it as simply as possible, in an effort to get you to finally answer the question:

WHY do YOU think her situation cannot be termed as internment?
And it is your opinion that she is interned, test it in the courts, you can't get away from this in a civilised society. I don't understand why you are so upset with my opinion, as I said take it to court.

Your avoidance of the question is fantastical at this stage!!

I think she is interned. My reason for my opinion is that she is held in prison without crime or trial and has never had an early release licence which could have been breached. I am asking you to provide YOUR reason for thinking she is not being interned.

Stop copping out with nonsense about court cases. In your little court case, imagine you were the judge, you would obviously say she is not being interned...what would your reasons be? You said she is not being interned, I just want to know why you believe so. It's really not a complicated question.
Nally this is getting tiresome. I haver stated repeatedly that we live in a democratic society and there is no internmnet statute on the books. Therefore if Ms Price feels she is being illegally held the place to go is court, the self same courts that you and your SF colleagues are pledged to uphold along with the rule of law...simple really.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on December 03, 2012, 01:45:58 PM
I'm not copping out. It is quite simple if she is being detained illegally let the courts decide, that's what we are meant to do in a democracy. SF though are continuing to pander to the dissidents and as a result they are turning voters off. You can't be half in or out of Government.

You are copping out. You have been repeatedly asked to explain your reasoning and you keep waffling about letting courts decide. Forget about courts for a second. You offered your own PERSONAL opinion that Marion Price is not being interned. I am simply asking you to explain why YOU believe this to be the case. I'm not asking you what Marion Price thinks or what she should do about it. So, putting it as simply as possible, in an effort to get you to finally answer the question:

WHY do YOU think her situation cannot be termed as internment?
And it is your opinion that she is interned, test it in the courts, you can't get away from this in a civilised society. I don't understand why you are so upset with my opinion, as I said take it to court.

Your avoidance of the question is fantastical at this stage!!

I think she is interned. My reason for my opinion is that she is held in prison without crime or trial and has never had an early release licence which could have been breached. I am asking you to provide YOUR reason for thinking she is not being interned.

Stop copping out with nonsense about court cases. In your little court case, imagine you were the judge, you would obviously say she is not being interned...what would your reasons be? You said she is not being interned, I just want to know why you believe so. It's really not a complicated question.
Nally this is getting tiresome. I haver stated repeatedly that we live in a democratic society and there is no internmnet statute on the books. Therefore if Ms Price feels she is being illegally held the place to go is court, the self same courts that you and your SF colleagues are pledged to uphold along with the rule of law...simple really.

You better believe it's getting tiresome. Never mind what is on the books or not...collusion was never on the books but it happened. There is also nothing on the books for royal pardons "going missing" either but that hasn't stopped her being thrown in jail without crime or trial, so what make her case any different from internment?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on December 03, 2012, 04:55:25 PM
I'm not copping out. It is quite simple if she is being detained illegally let the courts decide, that's what we are meant to do in a democracy. SF though are continuing to pander to the dissidents and as a result they are turning voters off. You can't be half in or out of Government.

You are copping out. You have been repeatedly asked to explain your reasoning and you keep waffling about letting courts decide. Forget about courts for a second. You offered your own PERSONAL opinion that Marion Price is not being interned. I am simply asking you to explain why YOU believe this to be the case. I'm not asking you what Marion Price thinks or what she should do about it. So, putting it as simply as possible, in an effort to get you to finally answer the question:

WHY do YOU think her situation cannot be termed as internment?
And it is your opinion that she is interned, test it in the courts, you can't get away from this in a civilised society. I don't understand why you are so upset with my opinion, as I said take it to court.

Your avoidance of the question is fantastical at this stage!!

I think she is interned. My reason for my opinion is that she is held in prison without crime or trial and has never had an early release licence which could have been breached. I am asking you to provide YOUR reason for thinking she is not being interned.

Stop copping out with nonsense about court cases. In your little court case, imagine you were the judge, you would obviously say she is not being interned...what would your reasons be? You said she is not being interned, I just want to know why you believe so. It's really not a complicated question.
Nally this is getting tiresome. I haver stated repeatedly that we live in a democratic society and there is no internmnet statute on the books. Therefore if Ms Price feels she is being illegally held the place to go is court, the self same courts that you and your SF colleagues are pledged to uphold along with the rule of law...simple really.

You better believe it's getting tiresome. Never mind what is on the books or not...collusion was never on the books but it happened. There is also nothing on the books for royal pardons "going missing" either but that hasn't stopped her being thrown in jail without crime or trial, so what make her case any different from internment?
So take it to court gurning on here won't get her out.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on December 03, 2012, 04:56:47 PM
It's up to her to take it to court, my question is why you believe she would lose. What, in your view, differentiates her case from a case of internment?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Puckoon on December 03, 2012, 05:00:58 PM
It's up to her to take it to court, my question is why you believe she would lose.

If she would win (i.e. if it is internment) - why wouldn't (or hasn't, I haven't looked) she taken it to court?

Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on December 03, 2012, 05:03:25 PM
It's up to her to take it to court, my question is why you believe she would lose. What, in your view, differentiates her case from a case of internment?
I didn't sat that she would lose, but it would sort the matter out one way or the other. I am simply making the point that we have accepted the rule in the six counties. But it seems to me that it is a conditional acceptance (by both sides if the DUP's summer letter is anything to go by). To be honest people like Marion Price with their support for dissidents leave SF open to criticism and accusations that they are still anchored to the past. They need to become more embracing if they wish to get the 40% of catholics happy to remain in the UK is to be persuaded.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on December 03, 2012, 05:14:15 PM
I didn't sat that she would lose, but it would sort the matter out one way or the other.
Well you said she is not being interned, so that would lead me to believe you do think she would lose. Look apples, you clearly said she is not being interned. I'm just really interested to hear your reasons for thinking this, but you don't seem to have a single reason at all.

To be honest people like Marion Price with their support for dissidents leave SF open to criticism and accusations that they are still anchored to the past.
Again, I think people would be more worried about SF not taking issue with internment without trial.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Minder on December 03, 2012, 05:55:32 PM
I didn't sat that she would lose, but it would sort the matter out one way or the other.
Well you said she is not being interned, so that would lead me to believe you do think she would lose. Look apples, you clearly said she is not being interned. I'm just really interested to hear your reasons for thinking this, but you don't seem to have a single reason at all.

To be honest people like Marion Price with their support for dissidents leave SF open to criticism and accusations that they are still anchored to the past.
Again, I think people would be more worried about SF not taking issue with internment without trial.

You are maybe over estimating how important people see Marion Prices internment, various political parties are using it for their own ends. I have seen various "protests" about her internment about the Falls Road and have never seen more than a dozen people at them. People obviously don't feel that strongly about it one way or the other.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: LeoMc on December 03, 2012, 06:57:06 PM
How did her "Royal pardon" get lost?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on December 03, 2012, 08:13:45 PM
I didn't sat that she would lose, but it would sort the matter out one way or the other.
Well you said she is not being interned, so that would lead me to believe you do think she would lose. Look apples, you clearly said she is not being interned. I'm just really interested to hear your reasons for thinking this, but you don't seem to have a single reason at all.

To be honest people like Marion Price with their support for dissidents leave SF open to criticism and accusations that they are still anchored to the past.
Again, I think people would be more worried about SF not taking issue with internment without trial.

You are maybe over estimating how important people see Marion Prices internment, various political parties are using it for their own ends. I have seen various "protests" about her internment about the Falls Road and have never seen more than a dozen people at them. People obviously don't feel that strongly about it one way or the other.
You definitely have a point there.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on December 03, 2012, 09:19:37 PM
I didn't sat that she would lose, but it would sort the matter out one way or the other.
Well you said she is not being interned, so that would lead me to believe you do think she would lose. Look apples, you clearly said she is not being interned. I'm just really interested to hear your reasons for thinking this, but you don't seem to have a single reason at all.

To be honest people like Marion Price with their support for dissidents leave SF open to criticism and accusations that they are still anchored to the past.
Again, I think people would be more worried about SF not taking issue with internment without trial.

You are maybe over estimating how important people see Marion Prices internment, various political parties are using it for their own ends. I have seen various "protests" about her internment about the Falls Road and have never seen more than a dozen people at them. People obviously don't feel that strongly about it one way or the other.

I don't over estimate anything. The issue of Price/Corey etc won't make or break SF, but it's more in SF's interest to voice opposition to cases of internment than to stay silent on it.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: theticklemister on December 03, 2012, 10:31:15 PM
I didn't sat that she would lose, but it would sort the matter out one way or the other.
Well you said she is not being interned, so that would lead me to believe you do think she would lose. Look apples, you clearly said she is not being interned. I'm just really interested to hear your reasons for thinking this, but you don't seem to have a single reason at all.

To be honest people like Marion Price with their support for dissidents leave SF open to criticism and accusations that they are still anchored to the past.
Again, I think people would be more worried about SF not taking issue with internment without trial.

You are maybe over estimating how important people see Marion Prices internment, various political parties are using it for their own ends. I have seen various "protests" about her internment about the Falls Road and have never seen more than a dozen people at them. People obviously don't feel that strongly about it one way or the other.

I don't over estimate anything. The issue of Price/Corey etc won't make or break SF, but it's more in SF's interest to voice opposition to cases of internment than to stay silent on it.

Sinn Fein's interests??? The case of internment without trial is always wrong, be it 1971 or now.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on December 03, 2012, 10:37:12 PM
I didn't sat that she would lose, but it would sort the matter out one way or the other.
Well you said she is not being interned, so that would lead me to believe you do think she would lose. Look apples, you clearly said she is not being interned. I'm just really interested to hear your reasons for thinking this, but you don't seem to have a single reason at all.

To be honest people like Marion Price with their support for dissidents leave SF open to criticism and accusations that they are still anchored to the past.
Again, I think people would be more worried about SF not taking issue with internment without trial.

You are maybe over estimating how important people see Marion Prices internment, various political parties are using it for their own ends. I have seen various "protests" about her internment about the Falls Road and have never seen more than a dozen people at them. People obviously don't feel that strongly about it one way or the other.

I don't over estimate anything. The issue of Price/Corey etc won't make or break SF, but it's more in SF's interest to voice opposition to cases of internment than to stay silent on it.

Sinn Fein's interests??? The case of internment without trial is always wrong, be it 1971 or now.

No s**t!! My point was in relation to applesisapples claiming that SF will not do themselves any favour by supporting Price etc.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on December 04, 2012, 05:15:15 PM
Guys, call it what you like it may be , and I say may be an illegal detention but internment it ain't. Should be tested in the courts if it is a miscarriage of justice then she will win.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on December 04, 2012, 05:17:39 PM
Guys, call it what you like it may be , and I say may be an illegal detention but internment it ain't.
If you don't mind me asking, why do you believe this? More to the point....what is the difference?

Should be tested in the courts if it is a miscarriage of justice then she will win.

mis·car·riage of jus·tice
noun
a failure of a court or judicial system to attain the ends of justice, especially one that results in the conviction of an innocent person.

She is in jail on the whim of a British Secretary of State, not a court, and she hasn't been convicted of a crime, so wouldn't that rule this out? Internment it is so.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: thebigfella on December 04, 2012, 05:47:53 PM
Guys, call it what you like it may be , and I say may be an illegal detention but internment it ain't.
If you don't mind me asking, why do you believe this? More to the point....what is the difference?

Should be tested in the courts if it is a miscarriage of justice then she will win.

mis·car·riage of jus·tice
noun
a failure of a court or judicial system to attain the ends of justice, especially one that results in the conviction of an innocent person.

She is in jail on the whim of a British Secretary of State, not a court, and she hasn't been convicted of a crime, so wouldn't that rule this out? Internment it is so.

Sure why don't your bust her out? Maybe you can make a name for yourself.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on December 05, 2012, 12:00:50 PM
Guys, call it what you like it may be , and I say may be an illegal detention but internment it ain't.
If you don't mind me asking, why do you believe this? More to the point....what is the difference?

Should be tested in the courts if it is a miscarriage of justice then she will win.

mis·car·riage of jus·tice
noun
a failure of a court or judicial system to attain the ends of justice, especially one that results in the conviction of an innocent person.

She is in jail on the whim of a British Secretary of State, not a court, and she hasn't been convicted of a crime, so wouldn't that rule this out? Internment it is so.
Nally when you have to resort to this type of post it suggests that you have no defence, if you'll pardon the pun. ;)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on December 05, 2012, 12:03:55 PM
Guys, call it what you like it may be , and I say may be an illegal detention but internment it ain't.

Again, what's the difference, exactly?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on December 05, 2012, 12:26:15 PM
Guys, call it what you like it may be , and I say may be an illegal detention but internment it ain't.

Again, what's the difference, exactly?
Yaaaawnn, like most nationalists I really am not overly concerned with Ms. Price and her politics of the past, to misquote SF.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on December 05, 2012, 12:34:10 PM
Guys, call it what you like it may be , and I say may be an illegal detention but internment it ain't.

Again, what's the difference, exactly?
Yaaaawnn, like most nationalists I really am not overly concerned with Ms. Price and her politics of the past, to misquote SF.

Apples, is is too much to expect a bit of proper discussion? You bring the act of avoiding a question to an art form. Please, in the interests of this being a discussion board, explain what the difference is between "an illegal detention" and internment.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Rossfan on December 05, 2012, 02:03:13 PM
Will you pair please give up ye're tiresome duet. >:(
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on December 05, 2012, 04:52:39 PM
Guys, call it what you like it may be , and I say may be an illegal detention but internment it ain't.

Again, what's the difference, exactly?
Yaaaawnn, like most nationalists I really am not overly concerned with Ms. Price and her politics of the past, to misquote SF.

Apples, is is too much to expect a bit of proper discussion? You bring the act of avoiding a question to an art form. Please, in the interests of this being a discussion board, explain what the difference is between "an illegal detention" and internment.
Internment is a policy enacted by staute to imprison people without trial. This is not the case with Price, she may or may not be unlawfully detained, but unless she takes her case to court we won't know.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on December 05, 2012, 04:53:48 PM
Will you pair please give up ye're tiresome duet. >:(
too right, I wanted to give it up ages ago but Nally is a persistent bugger!
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on December 05, 2012, 04:59:41 PM
Guys, call it what you like it may be , and I say may be an illegal detention but internment it ain't.

Again, what's the difference, exactly?
Yaaaawnn, like most nationalists I really am not overly concerned with Ms. Price and her politics of the past, to misquote SF.

Apples, is is too much to expect a bit of proper discussion? You bring the act of avoiding a question to an art form. Please, in the interests of this being a discussion board, explain what the difference is between "an illegal detention" and internment.
Internment is a policy enacted by staute to imprison people without trial. This is not the case with Price, she may or may not be unlawfully detained, but unless she takes her case to court we won't know.

Aside from the fact that no definition I've ever seen for internment includes a stipulation that is must be "in statute" to be termed as such, if we take your fanciful idea that it isn't internment because it isn't in statute, then since collusion, another British activity in Ireland, wasn't in statute I assume you don't regard it as having existed?

And if it is termed "an illegal detention" (which ironically isn't in statute either), then surely that is something a democratic society should be opposed to? Why then criticise SF for speaking out against it?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Rossfan on December 05, 2012, 05:24:37 PM
Will you pair please give up ye're tiresome duet. >:(
too right, I wanted to give it up ages ago but Nally is a persistent bugger!

He does go on a biteen alright  ;D
And he probably calls Unionists "Intransigent"  ::)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on December 05, 2012, 11:10:30 PM
nally i think what apples is saying without actually coming out with it is that internment is wrong but it depends who it is.ie as long as its a nobody in his life its ok.
what nally is saying apples is its wrong no matter who it is. ie if you tolerate this then your children will be next
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on December 10, 2012, 09:52:51 AM
nally i think what apples is saying without actually coming out with it is that internment is wrong but it depends who it is.ie as long as its a nobody in his life its ok.
what nally is saying apples is its wrong no matter who it is. ie if you tolerate this then your children will be next
very lyrical!
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on December 10, 2012, 12:26:33 PM
Will you pair please give up ye're tiresome duet. >:(
too right, I wanted to give it up ages ago but Nally is an persistent obsessve bugger!

He does go on a biteen alright  ;D
And he probably calls Unionists "Intransigent"  ::)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on December 10, 2012, 12:46:32 PM
nally i think what apples is saying without actually coming out with it is that internment is wrong but it depends who it is.ie as long as its a nobody in his life its ok.
what nally is saying apples is its wrong no matter who it is. ie if you tolerate this then your children will be next
very lyrical!

Lyrical indeed. But if this is a discussion forum, and you are taking part, then I'd be interested to hear your response to the below queries:

1. Aside from the fact that no definition I've ever seen for internment includes a stipulation that is must be "in statute" to be termed as such, if we take your fanciful idea that it isn't internment because it isn't in statute, then since collusion, another British activity in Ireland, wasn't in statute I assume you don't regard it as having existed?

2. And if it is termed "an illegal detention" (which ironically isn't in statute either), then surely that is something a democratic society should be opposed to? Why then criticise SF for speaking out against it?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on December 11, 2012, 03:43:40 PM
nally i think what apples is saying without actually coming out with it is that internment is wrong but it depends who it is.ie as long as its a nobody in his life its ok.
what nally is saying apples is its wrong no matter who it is. ie if you tolerate this then your children will be next
very lyrical!

Lyrical indeed. But if this is a discussion forum, and you are taking part, then I'd be interested to hear your response to the below queries:

1. Aside from the fact that no definition I've ever seen for internment includes a stipulation that is must be "in statute" to be termed as such, if we take your fanciful idea that it isn't internment because it isn't in statute, then since collusion, another British activity in Ireland, wasn't in statute I assume you don't regard it as having existed?

2. And if it is termed "an illegal detention" (which ironically isn't in statute either), then surely that is something a democratic society should be opposed to? Why then criticise SF for speaking out against it?
Nally, I have explained my reasoning which you don't accept so no point in continuing. I know exactly where you stand and I don't agree with you, I can't see me changing your mind.
Anyway with the census showing only 25% of the NI population considering themselves as Irish, I think you and your SF colleagues have greater issues to worry about.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on December 11, 2012, 04:12:13 PM
nally i think what apples is saying without actually coming out with it is that internment is wrong but it depends who it is.ie as long as its a nobody in his life its ok.
what nally is saying apples is its wrong no matter who it is. ie if you tolerate this then your children will be next
very lyrical!

Lyrical indeed. But if this is a discussion forum, and you are taking part, then I'd be interested to hear your response to the below queries:

1. Aside from the fact that no definition I've ever seen for internment includes a stipulation that is must be "in statute" to be termed as such, if we take your fanciful idea that it isn't internment because it isn't in statute, then since collusion, another British activity in Ireland, wasn't in statute I assume you don't regard it as having existed?

2. And if it is termed "an illegal detention" (which ironically isn't in statute either), then surely that is something a democratic society should be opposed to? Why then criticise SF for speaking out against it?
Nally, I have explained my reasoning which you don't accept so no point in continuing. I know exactly where you stand and I don't agree with you, I can't see me changing your mind.
Anyway with the census showing only 25% of the NI population considering themselves as Irish, I think you and your SF colleagues have greater issues to worry about.

I'm not asking your reasoning, I'm just asking what the difference is between internment and illegal detention?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on December 13, 2012, 09:16:33 PM
25%? 25% consider themselves irish!? i'd say thats more to do with who running the show south of the border at the moment. given a choice between cameroon and the gimp kenny and fianna failure barking up his arse and they just after putting 4 future generations under the jackboot. who'd blame anyone for not wanting to join the sheep.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Saffrongael on December 15, 2012, 09:36:51 AM

A jury has found that Sinn Fein libelled a former director of NI Water.

Declan Gormley sued the party over the contents of two press releases it issued in 2011 in support of his sacking from the NIW Board.

The party denied the press releases were defamatory, but the jury found the party had acted with malice.

There will be another hearing at the High Court on Monday when damages will be decided.

The businessman, who was dismissed from the government-owned company by former Sinn Fein Regional Development Minister Conor Murphy, spoke of his relief at the outcome.

"I'm delighted, I feel the verdict has vindicated the position I have held throughout that this was something that was wrong," he said.

"I'm also disappointed that I had to end up in court, I would have been happy to settle for an apology and a public acknowledgement that it was wrong."

Mr Gormley was sacked along with three other non-executive directors from NI Water in March 2010.

Mr Murphy removed them from the board following an independent review team investigation into the awarding of contracts.

A subsequent Stormont Public Accounts Committee report into procurement and performance at the company was said to have criticised the earlier inquiry and questioned its independence.

Reckless
Mr Gormley emphatically denied any wrongdoing.

He issued libel proceedings against Sinn Fein and two of its representatives, MLA Cathal Boylan and former Assemblyman Willie Clarke, over the contents of press releases backing the decision to sack him.

Over the course of a ten-day hearing at the High Court in Belfast, his legal team claimed they damaged his reputation and were reckless, if not dishonest.

Lawyers for Sinn Fein contended, however, that neither statement contained any defamatory content.

They also claimed a defence of qualified privilege, arguing that the press releases were in response to a campaign of attacks on Mr Murphy mounted by the SDLP with Mr Gormley's collusion.

But a jury of five men and one woman found for Mr Gormley on the balance of probabilities.

They decided that both statements were defamatory and that the defendants were guilty of malice.

Mr Justice Gillen then rejected a final defence of qualified journalism, ruling that no steps had been taken to try to verify the contents of the press releases before publishing them.

"I'm satisfied that the press releases in question fell below the acceptable standards of journalistic approach," he said.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: armaghniac on December 17, 2012, 01:09:09 PM
£80K damages awarded.

Declan Gormley will also receive full costs of his successful action over the contents of two party press releases found to contain defamatory and malicious content.

According to informed sources the legal bill for the three-week trial will run into a six figure sum.

But speaking outside the High Court in Belfast Mr Gormley insisted the case was never about the money.

He said: "What happened to me was wrong, a jury of ordinary men and women have decided it was wrong and have awarded accordingly."

Mr Gormley added that he had no expectations about the level of damages.

"It's never been about the money, it's always been about vindicating my reputation and good name.

"The award is great, but that was never the focus of my action."

The businessman was dismissed along with three other non-executive directors from NI Water in March 2010.

Conor Murphy, the former Sinn Féin Minister for Regional Development, removed them from the board following an independent review team investigation into the awarding of contracts.

A subsequent Stormont Public Accounts Committee report into procurement and performance at the government-owned company was said to have criticised the earlier inquiry and questioned its independence.

Mr Gormley emphatically denies any wrongdoing.

"I'm absolutely delighted, but I think it's more important to point out that this completes the utter vindication of my position."
 Declan Gormley

He issued libel proceedings against Sinn Féin and two of its representatives, MLA Cathal Boylan and former Assemblyman Willie Clarke, over the contents of press releases which referred to sacking.

During a three-week hearing, his legal team claimed they damaged his reputation and were reckless if not dishonest.

Lawyers for Sinn Féin contended, however, that neither statement contained any defamatory content. They also claimed a defence of qualified privilege, arguing that the press releases were in response to a campaign of attacks on Mr Murphy mounted by the SDLP with Mr Gormley's collusion.

But on Friday a jury of five men and one woman took just over an hour to unanimously find for Mr Gormley on the balance of probabilities.

They decided both statements were defamatory and contained malicious content.

Mr Justice Gillen then rejected a final defence based on responsible journalism, ruling that no steps had been taken to try to verify the contents of the press releases before publishing them.

In court on Monday the jury was advised against awarding too high a pay-out.

The judge told them: "Keep your feet on the ground."

Counsel for Sinn Féin also argued that the defamation merited only a modest award due to the limited circulation of the press releases.

But Mr Gormley's barrister, David Dunlop, said the party issued the statements to around 200 news outlets in the hope of gaining widespread publicity.

He pointed out how damages were for the distressed suffered by his client, to repair the harm to his reputation and a form of vindication.

Mr Dunlop added that Sinn Féin and the other defendants have not apologised.

Instead there had been "a bull-headed, unreasonable and unjustified persistence in maintaining the party line" throughout the trial," he said.

Sinn Féin have not indicated if they will appeal the decision.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on December 31, 2012, 10:43:03 AM
martin quits his mp job francy will take over. sinn fein lead the way in ending double jobbing as per their election promise
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Rossfan on December 31, 2012, 12:54:12 PM
Will there not be a By election before "Francy takes over" ?
I think Joe Higgins ended double jobbing in March 2011.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on December 31, 2012, 02:40:19 PM
Will there not be a By election before "Francy takes over" ?
I think Joe Higgins ended double jobbing in March 2011.
yes by election and francy will take over.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: All of a Sludden on December 31, 2012, 02:52:17 PM
Will there not be a By election before "Francy takes over" ?
I think Joe Higgins ended double jobbing in March 2011.
yes by election and francy will take over.

He may not have it all his own way, Willie Frazer is also in the running.  :P
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Wildweasel74 on December 31, 2012, 08:21:05 PM
Been part of Mid Ulster and having actually voted for him once under the McCrea out banner (which was a winner that yr with him on stage with Billy Wright) can someone actually state what he has done for the area since he got elected? I see no real progress in Mid Ulster all these yrs, very little has changed,well thats not true, all my brothers are out of work, more than half my friends cant get work, mid ulster actually became a unemployment hotspot, BUT YOU GET WHO YOU VOTE FOR. Martin McGuinness spent more time running after deputy minster  than do anything where he got elected. I always never held to people getting elected in areas they are not from, Willie McCrea done the same thing in North antrim. So as to him standing down in the area, would anybody really notice?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Gaffer on December 31, 2012, 10:04:46 PM
Will there not be a By election before "Francy takes over" ?
I think Joe Higgins ended double jobbing in March 2011.
yes by election and francy will take over.

Take over what exactly?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Tony Baloney on December 31, 2012, 10:18:28 PM
Will there not be a By election before "Francy takes over" ?
I think Joe Higgins ended double jobbing in March 2011.
yes by election and francy will take over.

Take over what exactly?
Take over not doing the job Marty didn't do for 15 years. That's taking the war to the Brits.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on December 31, 2012, 10:40:54 PM
Been part of Mid Ulster and having actually voted for him once under the McCrea out banner (which was a winner that yr with him on stage with Billy Wright) can someone actually state what he has done for the area since he got elected? I see no real progress in Mid Ulster all these yrs, very little has changed,well thats not true, all my brothers are out of work, more than half my friends cant get work, mid ulster actually became a unemployment hotspot, BUT YOU GET WHO YOU VOTE FOR. Martin McGuinness spent more time running after deputy minster  than do anything where he got elected. I always never held to people getting elected in areas they are not from, Willie McCrea done the same thing in North antrim. So as to him standing down in the area, would anybody really notice?
out of work? are you for real? ahh.. i get it you worked in the linen industry..? you should join the boys on the fleg protest some of them have been out of work for 15 years! thats right through the 'tiger' years, the london boom etc etc. on the other hand if yez are all out of work that give yez plenty of time to yourselves.. long days though
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: theticklemister on December 31, 2012, 10:57:00 PM
Je lads he could of been treble jobbing if he got elected down south  ;D ;D ;D.

Who would of thought a man getting elected in two different juristrictions on one island for three jobs.

Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Itchy on December 31, 2012, 11:05:29 PM
Been part of Mid Ulster and having actually voted for him once under the McCrea out banner (which was a winner that yr with him on stage with Billy Wright) can someone actually state what he has done for the area since he got elected? I see no real progress in Mid Ulster all these yrs, very little has changed,well thats not true, all my brothers are out of work, more than half my friends cant get work, mid ulster actually became a unemployment hotspot, BUT YOU GET WHO YOU VOTE FOR. Martin McGuinness spent more time running after deputy minster  than do anything where he got elected. I always never held to people getting elected in areas they are not from, Willie McCrea done the same thing in North antrim. So as to him standing down in the area, would anybody really notice?
out of work? are you for real? ahh.. i get it you worked in the linen industry..? you should join the boys on the fleg protest some of them have been out of work for 15 years! thats right through the 'tiger' years, the london boom etc etc. on the other hand if yez are all out of work that give yez plenty of time to yourselves.. long days though
There are a lot of people out of work lawnseed, why are you mocking them. Its not funny no more than emigration is funny.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on December 31, 2012, 11:41:49 PM
i just been talking to a lad whos home from canada. the town he was in was smaller than ballygawley. population less than 700. in the local paper there were 3 full pages of display ads and a half a page of classifieds all looking workers. by you own posts where you are is a shithole, martin mcguiness has done fuk all for fifteen years! i'd be on the first plane no messing. this lad was offered work as a welder and accomodation and he never welded in his life. marty is 6 hours on a jet away you'd be much happier.. seriously if it so bad pull the pin   
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on December 31, 2012, 11:58:40 PM
i just been talking to a lad whos home from canada. the town he was in was smaller than ballygawley. population less than 700. in the local paper there were 3 full pages of display ads and a half a page of classifieds all looking workers. by you own posts where you are is a shithole, martin mcguiness has done fuk all for fifteen years! i'd be on the first plane no messing. this lad was offered work as a welder and accomodation and he never welded in his life. marty is 6 hours on a jet away you'd be much happier.. seriously if it so bad pull the pin

Lawnseed and Victorian British Government advocating the export of Irish out of Ireland. Not everyone got the family farm. Then again like the land class during the famine you have no empathy for your countrymen.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Saffrongael on January 01, 2013, 12:19:08 AM
Glad to see he wrote to his paymasters in Westminster to inform them he was resigning.

A loyal subject to the end.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Gaffer on January 01, 2013, 12:20:34 AM
Probably get a knighthood for his service to the British Crown.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Wildweasel74 on January 01, 2013, 12:41:06 AM
Lawnseed (sorry d**khead!!) not that you know much about midulster but the majority of work in this area depended on the building trade, hence why in recent years my friends have been gradually pushed out work, there is nothing else, it takes time to be retrained in anything, they have all worked away, Belfast, down south etc, they can only work so far as most have families. Hope the situation doesnt befall you or you wont take the piss so easy
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: theticklemister on January 01, 2013, 02:40:32 AM
Tis a big year for mcguinness this year lads. Dont get on his case on the first day of his acceptance UK city of culture award  ;D :D :P the huge party in the Bog is in full swing...................

Sweet low, sweet chariot...................
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: omagh_gael on January 01, 2013, 09:13:56 AM
Tis a big year for mcguinness this year lads. Dont get on his case on the first day of his acceptance UK city of culture award  ;D :D :P the huge party in the Bog is in full swing...................

Sweet low, sweet chariot...................

Oops ;)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Rossfan on January 01, 2013, 10:19:39 AM
Je lads he could of been treble jobbing if he got elected down south  ;D ;D ;D.

Who would of thought a man getting elected in two different juristrictions on one island for three jobs.

Take 4 penalty points and undertake a basic English course. :'(
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: theticklemister on January 01, 2013, 11:20:09 AM
Je lads he could of been treble jobbing if he got elected down south  ;D ;D ;D.

Who would of thought a man getting elected in two different juristrictions on one island for three jobs.

Take 4 penalty points and undertake a basic English course. :'(

f**k it. I reckon for the new year the gaa boarders should ignore the 'of' and 'have' words rule and they should be treated equally.

Mind ye I have a qts English test coming up to become a qualified teacher so maybe ye were all correct to pull me on my pelslgin
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on January 02, 2013, 08:27:01 AM
Lawnseed (sorry d**khead!!) not that you know much about midulster but the majority of work in this area depended on the building trade, hence why in recent years my friends have been gradually pushed out work, there is nothing else, it takes time to be retrained in anything, they have all worked away, Belfast, down south etc, they can only work so far as most have families. Hope the situation doesnt befall you or you wont take the piss so easy

"there is nothing else...?" sounds to me like you are a little depressed you should mention this to your doctor. but the man your slagging off has brought thousand of jobs to the six counties (and peter robinson helped as well) i suggest you do a welding course asap. i've a friend earning $300 a day in canada he spends more time at home than me. i can tell you that i have a young family, a mortgage and loans and should i find myself in your position i wouldnt be in this place a week
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on January 02, 2013, 08:37:10 AM
the home of capitalism follows sinn fein fiancial policy.. its been a long running theme in irish politics propagated by 'fine fail' and fed on by the media that sinn fein couldnt handle the economy of this country. now in the US barrack obama has managed to get support in both the seats of power for a policy that is taken straight from the sinn fein statement of policy. taxing those who can afford it makes alot more sense than screwing the poor. well done president obama
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on January 02, 2013, 12:19:04 PM
The Skibbereen Eagle couldn't hold a candle to Lawnseed.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on January 02, 2013, 12:29:58 PM
the home of capitalism follows sinn fein fiancial policy.. its been a long running theme in irish politics propagated by 'fine fail' and fed on by the media that sinn fein couldnt handle the economy of this country. now in the US barrack obama has managed to get support in both the seats of power for a policy that is taken straight from the sinn fein statement of policy. taxing those who can afford it makes alot more sense than screwing the poor. well done president obama

Sinn Féin will cuts taxes for all earners earning less than $450,000 per annum?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: orangeman on January 02, 2013, 06:16:34 PM
Probably get a knighthood for his service to the British Crown.
Not quite - well not yet - just the title of Steward and Bailiff of the Manor of Northstead so far.

Sinn Fein's Martin McGuinness has been given an English aristocratic title following his formal resignation as member of the UK parliament.

He has been appointed Steward and Bailiff of the Manor of Northstead by the chancellor, George Osborne.

Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 02, 2013, 08:12:31 PM
Probably get a knighthood for his service to the British Crown.
Not quite - well not yet - just the title of Steward and Bailiff of the Manor of Northstead so far.

Sinn Fein's Martin McGuinness has been given an English aristocratic title following his formal resignation as member of the UK parliament.

He has been appointed Steward and Bailiff of the Manor of Northstead by the chancellor, George Osborne.


Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Orior on January 02, 2013, 08:16:19 PM
WTF!!!!
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Minder on January 02, 2013, 08:19:28 PM
Probably get a knighthood for his service to the British Crown.
Not quite - well not yet - just the title of Steward and Bailiff of the Manor of Northstead so far.

Sinn Fein's Martin McGuinness has been given an English aristocratic title following his formal resignation as member of the UK parliament.

He has been appointed Steward and Bailiff of the Manor of Northstead by the chancellor, George Osborne.





The move is a formality and either it or a similar title - the office of the Crown Steward and Bailiff of the Chiltern Hundreds - is conferred on resigning MPs, whether or not they accept it.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Tony Baloney on January 02, 2013, 08:51:46 PM
Marty will have to get Aengus OSnodaigh to knock up a lock more headed paper now he is removing "MP".
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on January 02, 2013, 08:55:13 PM
I didn't realise he was friends with George Osborne.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: grounded on January 10, 2013, 01:18:06 AM
Almost 20 years ago now.

Funny, the only two left(in politics) are Adams and Nesbitt!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MjK_C-qV9o
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: armaghniac on January 10, 2013, 04:34:51 PM
SF do seem to be going away


Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on January 10, 2013, 06:25:09 PM
SF 4% fall / FF 3% rise.

And in the immediate aftermath of a budget.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on January 10, 2013, 07:07:36 PM
Oh, and 44% of SF voters in the Republic feel decision to restrict flying of the Union flag was wrong.
Does that make them 'West Brits'?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: armaghniac on January 10, 2013, 07:14:03 PM

Quote
Oh, and 44% of SF voters in the Republic feel decision to restrict flying of the Union flag was wrong.
Does that make them 'West Brits'?

It would be rather odd, whatever name you put on it.
What exactly was the question asked? If it was agreement with the present policy of the City Council, then this would include those that think that they have no business flying the Butcher's Apron at any time.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Ulick on January 10, 2013, 08:11:07 PM
Oh, and 44% of SF voters in the Republic feel decision to restrict flying of the Union flag was wrong.
Does that make them 'West Brits'?

If you discount those didn't respond then the poll says 19% of SF voters in the south feel decision was wrong. Also the SF sample size is 83 which would make the margin of error about 10-11%.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on January 10, 2013, 09:02:30 PM
Oh, and 44% of SF voters in the Republic feel decision to restrict flying of the Union flag was wrong.
Does that make them 'West Brits'?

If you discount those didn't respond then the poll says 19% of SF voters in the south feel decision was wrong. Also the SF sample size is 83 which would make the margin of error about 10-11%.
How many didn't respond? And are you assuming that those who didn't respond feel the decision was right?
And if you discount those didn't respond then what % SF voters in the south feel decision was right?
Also, If the margain of error is 10-11%, could the figure actually be 55%?

There's more than one way to spin statistics.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Ulick on January 10, 2013, 09:09:50 PM
Oh, and 44% of SF voters in the Republic feel decision to restrict flying of the Union flag was wrong.
Does that make them 'West Brits'?

If you discount those didn't respond then the poll says 19% of SF voters in the south feel decision was wrong. Also the SF sample size is 83 which would make the margin of error about 10-11%.
How many didn't respond? And are you assuming that those who didn't respond feel the decision was right?
And if you discount those didn't respond then what % SF voters in the south feel decision was right?
Also, If the margain of error is 10-11%, could the figure actually be 55%?

There's more than one way to spin statistics.

Indeed. It could also be 8%.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on January 10, 2013, 09:14:50 PM
That's assuming your 19% is a valid starting point, which is highly unlikely.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Ulick on January 10, 2013, 10:51:02 PM
That's assuming your 19% is a valid starting point, which is highly unlikely.

Why is it unlikely?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on January 10, 2013, 11:03:58 PM
See my reply #367 and the questions you didn't answer.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on January 11, 2013, 03:49:42 PM
You assume that everyone who votes for SF agree with all their policies and positions on various issues, they don't.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: orangeman on January 15, 2013, 09:29:03 AM
Bizarre alright.

Sinn Fein is bizarrely complaining to respected international news channel CNN for saying Gerry Adams was an IRA leader.

Mr Adams has repeatedly denied being a member of the IRA, despite repeated accusations from the Government and former Provos.

Most recently, he was implicated in the murder of Belfast mother-of-10 Jean McConville.

CNN's World Report carried an interview with Mr Adams, in which he was described as "a former IRA paramilitary commander".

A leading Fine Gael councillor has called on Mr Adams to "treat the Irish people with respect and come clean about his past".

Fine Gael's leader of Limerick City Council, Diarmuid Scully, said the report has gone out around the world.

"If Gerry Adams is willing to be described as such in the international media, why does he continue to deny his former IRA membership here in Ireland. Surely the people deserve to know the truth about those who represent them," he said.

Sinn Fein said Mr Adams's spokesman has complained to CNN's representative in Belfast about the description of the party president. In the report on the loyalist violence and flags protest in Belfast, Mr Adams was described as "a former IRA paramilitary commander" and also as "the leading Catholic politician in Northern Ireland".

Mr Adams was speaking out against the ongoing violence in Belfast at a peace vigil at the weekend.

He continues to be routinely accused of being an IRA leader and member of the Army Council. Taoiseach Enda Kenny has joined in the statements declaring Mr Adams as a member of the IRA.

Last year, convicted IRA bomber Dolours Price accused Mr Adams of having a leading role in the Provos, including personal involvement in the murder of Jean McConville.

- Fionnan Sheahan Political Editor

Irish Independent

 
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: orangeman on January 19, 2013, 12:04:32 PM
The fleg men will be delighted with this news.


Sinn Féin is holding a special conference in Dublin to highlight the party's call for a border poll.
 
It wants a plebiscite in Northern Ireland on partition after the next Assembly elections.
 
Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams said this week that his party wanted a debate about the kind of Ireland people wanted to see for the 21st Century.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: SuperMac on January 19, 2013, 02:54:56 PM
SF do seem to be going away




SF 4% fall / FF 3% rise.

And in the immediate aftermath of a budget.
FF's rise is at FG's expense, SF drops went to the Independents. As a SF member I wouldn't get too excited, FF are enjoying plenty of news coverage as the so called only ' oppostion ' to FG/Labour thanks to their army of appoimtees down the years in RTE, Newstalk radio and of course Dr Sir O'Reilly's/O'Brien's toilet papers Independent newspapers. We will have council, Euro and referendums to make our impact and importantly a financial scandal invovling FF midway thru an election may well be uncovered liek what happened with Sean Gallaher  ;)  - we're not going away you know   :)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on January 19, 2013, 03:58:14 PM
SF do seem to be going away




SF 4% fall / FF 3% rise.

And in the immediate aftermath of a budget.
FF's rise is at FG's expense, SF drops went to the Independents. As a SF member I wouldn't get too excited, FF are enjoying plenty of news coverage as the so called only ' oppostion ' to FG/Labour thanks to their army of appoimtees down the years in RTE, Newstalk radio and of course Dr Sir O'Reilly's/O'Brien's toilet papers Independent newspapers. We will have council, Euro and referendums to make our impact and importantly a financial scandal invovling FF midway thru an election may well be uncovered liek what happened with Sean Gallaher  ;)  - we're not going away you know   :)

This is so blatant it makes Fox news look balanced.

What's the deal with a Financial Scandal?

Meehole sent checks to Jihadists?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on January 20, 2013, 08:56:25 AM
jeez muppet?  ::)

in relation to ff theres no problem finding a financial scandal.  ;)

but to land a killer blow sf need someone other than gerry there are several contenders for leader the sooner the better
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 20, 2013, 01:11:48 PM
SF do seem to be going away




SF 4% fall / FF 3% rise.

And in the immediate aftermath of a budget.
FF's rise is at FG's expense, SF drops went to the Independents. As a SF member I wouldn't get too excited, FF are enjoying plenty of news coverage as the so called only ' oppostion ' to FG/Labour thanks to their army of appoimtees down the years in RTE, Newstalk radio and of course Dr Sir O'Reilly's/O'Brien's toilet papers Independent newspapers. We will have council, Euro and referendums to make our impact and importantly a financial scandal invovling FF midway thru an election may well be uncovered liek what happened with Sean Gallaher  ;)  - we're not going away you know   :)
I think the Shinners are going quite well and consolidating their gains in recent years but they’re doing so because of their work on the ground not because of anything that happens north of the border.
I think the general public down here are broadly supporting the nationalist cause but not to the extent that it will override other issues. Unemployment and falling standards of living dominate the agenda.   
Ask Marty, he found that out the hard way.
From what I can gather, Mary Lou is gaining credibility and so to a lesser extent is Peirce Doherty. It’ll take another election or two, when the Shinners have come up with credible policies and all associated with the Troubles have left the scène, before they may become a force in politics down here.
FF aren’t going away either.
They have one big advantage over all other parties and it can’t be underestimated; they have an efficient electioneering set up in every constituency. Okay, it t may be bent a bit at the moment but it sure ain’t broke. They’ll get the hard core vote out come the next election.
Anyone connected with Cowan and his gobshites will have to stand aside before they will become a big player again- a bit like Gerry and SF.
Labour will probably lose out big time next election and SF could make inroads here.
They have taken a battering in every election since the foundation of the state, after a period in coalition, and I can’t see them doing well next time either. They’re a mixum gatherum of Democratic Left, Stickies and traditional Labour and their performance to date had been patchy to say the least. Besides, they don’t field candidates in the majority of constituencies.
FG won’t go up or down very much before the next election, like FF, they have their hard core supporters and I’d say something like 30-35% at the next outing is as much as they can hope for
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on January 20, 2013, 04:21:40 PM
SF do seem to be going away




SF 4% fall / FF 3% rise.

And in the immediate aftermath of a budget.
FF's rise is at FG's expense, SF drops went to the Independents.
How do you know?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on January 23, 2013, 09:46:16 PM
the border poll, all ireland referendum what ever you want to call it sinn feins calling for it at this time is simply the cleverest political move in Irish politics in a decade. in the north, the navel gazing dup and uup and the Norths inward looking media think its about 'norn iron'... "I'm not paying 50 euros for the doctor.." blah blah. this move has nothing to do with uniting ireland. its all about the 26. look at the reaction of the establishment in the south! first thing to remember is that all parties south of the border have a united ireland included in their party manifestos. some in small writing and some in large print but they all acknowledge it, its part of getting elected.. you roll out the tricolour and chucky a bit and that's your homage to the cause. then you make promises you have no intention of keeping hospitals jobs etc. but look how these guys have reacted.. they don't want it. sinn fein have exposed an unwillingness to help bring about something that is part of Irish DNA. Fianna fail 'the republican party' don't want a referendum.. brillant! hats off to sinn feins political strategists
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: armaghniac on January 23, 2013, 10:28:37 PM
Quote
this move has nothing to do with uniting ireland.

Indeed.

Is there any chance that SF will actually do something to advance the unification of Ireland?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Orior on January 23, 2013, 10:42:51 PM
the border pole, all ireland referendum what ever you want to call it

I certainly wouldnt call it a pole, lol
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on January 23, 2013, 10:48:29 PM
Quote
this move has nothing to do with uniting ireland.

Indeed.

Is there any chance that SF will actually do something to advance the unification of Ireland?
in theory all parties are supposed to be advancing the unification unless theyre unionists. this move has split the unionists even further and put the parties in the south in the position where they want to oppose the unification of their own country looks very bad for them.
the south has to be made habitable first. you cant do that until your in government.. time for that dungout ;)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on January 23, 2013, 11:19:32 PM
Quote
this move has nothing to do with uniting ireland.

Indeed.

Is there any chance that SF will actually do something to advance the unification of Ireland?
in theory all parties are supposed to be advancing the unification unless theyre unionists. this move has split the unionists even further and put the parties in the south in the position where they want to oppose the unification of their own country looks very bad for them.
the south has to be made habitable first. you cant do that until your in government.. time for that dungout ;)
 


hahaha "made habitable". The Irish Republic is a a gemstone when put beside the North.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on January 23, 2013, 11:26:08 PM
Quote
this move has nothing to do with uniting ireland.

Indeed.

Is there any chance that SF will actually do something to advance the unification of Ireland?
in theory all parties are supposed to be advancing the unification unless theyre unionists. this move has split the unionists even further and put the parties in the south in the position where they want to oppose the unification of their own country looks very bad for them.
the south has to be made habitable first. you cant do that until your in government.. time for that dungout ;)
 


hahaha "made habitable". The Irish Republic is a a gemstone when put beside the North.
sure maybe when we sort it out you might try it out again
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on January 23, 2013, 11:33:53 PM
dup in disarray have'nt a clue whether they want a referendum or not. arlene foster changing her mind now on nolan
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on January 23, 2013, 11:53:05 PM
Disappointed in Alex Maskey who didn't do Sinn Fein any favours trying to sell a UI to unionists. Mind you Arlene was equally as clueless. Didn't know if she was coming or going but that the DUP all over.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on January 24, 2013, 01:42:08 AM
Quote
this move has nothing to do with uniting ireland.

Indeed.

Is there any chance that SF will actually do something to advance the unification of Ireland?
in theory all parties are supposed to be advancing the unification unless theyre unionists. this move has split the unionists even further and put the parties in the south in the position where they want to oppose the unification of their own country looks very bad for them.
the south has to be made habitable first. you cant do that until your in government.. time for that dungout ;)
 


hahaha "made habitable". The Irish Republic is a a gemstone when put beside the North.
sure maybe when we sort it out you might try it out again

If you ever join the Irish Republic, just be good little boys and leave guns, flegs and puke football at home.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: johnneycool on January 24, 2013, 10:06:33 AM
The politics of the Irish republic as you know it would change considerably with a UI and that's the frightening thing for FF and FG, they'd possibly lose power unless one or the other tries to get into bed with the SDLP.

Nolan show was interesting in so much as Arlene was adamant that the union was strong and even Nolan suggested to her that the recent census data suggested that it wasn't just as strong as she was implying and it'd be better for the DUP came clean with their electorate. She went into ostrich mode quite quickly.

Maskey is many's a thing, a salesman for a UI to unionism he isn't, not sure if the shinners have anyone as yet to fit that mould.

The was a very valid point made by Malachi O'Doherty (the gremlin like character in the audience) that republicans will be voting for a UI no matter the economic situation in Dublin or London and ditto the unionists to maintain the union. Economics and the practicalities would only matter to the middle ground, possibly those who consider themselves Northern Irish in the census.

Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on January 24, 2013, 10:17:13 AM
The politics of the Irish republic as you know it would change considerably with a UI and that's the frightening thing for FF and FG, they'd possibly lose power unless one or the other tries to get into bed with the SDLP.

Nolan show was interesting in so much as Arlene was adamant that the union was strong and even Nolan suggested to her that the recent census data suggested that it wasn't just as strong as she was implying and it'd be better for the DUP came clean with their electorate. She went into ostrich mode quite quickly.

Maskey is many's a thing, a salesman for a UI to unionism he isn't, not sure if the shinners have anyone as yet to fit that mould.

The was a very valid point made by Malachi O'Doherty (the gremlin like character in the audience) that republicans will be voting for a UI no matter the economic situation in Dublin or London and ditto the unionists to maintain the union. Economics and the practicalities would only matter to the middle ground, possibly those who consider themselves Northern Irish in the census.

Sinn Féin has never been about that and if they are going to run a referendum it is a bit late to find someone with credibility to sell anything to Unionists. The SDLP would have been useful in this regard but they got their reward for Hume's work at the ballot box.

Unionists, in the main (David Irvine maybe) have never tried to 'reach out' so no help likely there.

Likely winners from this, believe it or not, are the small band of nutters with the flegs, who right now are outflank democratic Unionism at a time of a great threat, as they would see it.

SF will not be affected, north or south, while the other parties in the south would be better advised taking a low key approach. But I suspect they wont be able to help themselves. No democratic party should be blindly opposed to a ballot so they would be foolish to blindly oppose it.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: orangeman on January 24, 2013, 01:18:18 PM
Ex-IRA woman Dolours Price is found dead in Dublin 

The convicted IRA bomber, Dolours Price, has been found dead at her home in Malahide, County Dublin.

Her family has confirmed that she died at the house on Wednesday night and they are to release a statement later.

She was jailed for her part in an IRA bomb attack on the Old Bailey in London in 1973 that injured more than 200 people.

In recent years she has been an outspoken critic of the IRA leadership and Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on January 24, 2013, 01:35:27 PM
Ex-IRA woman Dolours Price is found dead in Dublin 

The convicted IRA bomber, Dolours Price, has been found dead at her home in Malahide, County Dublin.

Her family has confirmed that she died at the house on Wednesday night and they are to release a statement later.

She was jailed for her part in an IRA bomb attack on the Old Bailey in London in 1973 that injured more than 200 people.

In recent years she has been an outspoken critic of the IRA leadership and Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams.

wrong thread,this is already on death notices.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: orangeman on January 24, 2013, 01:51:36 PM
Leaving room for the conspiracy theorists out there after watching a good movie last night - Innocent based on the novel Presumed Innocent.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on January 24, 2013, 02:52:34 PM
Disappointed in Alex Maskey who didn't do Sinn Fein any favours trying to sell a UI to unionists. Mind you Arlene was equally as clueless. Didn't know if she was coming or going but that the DUP all over.
I have to agree with you there. If this poll is about starting a debate then fine. But as things stand there isn't a snowballs chance in hell of a majority of nationalists let alone an overall majority voting for a united Ireland. Before that happens we need to know what this unified state is going to look like. Listen to Conal McDevitt of the SDLP, he keeps reiterating that the debate needs to take place among nationalist first and formost.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 24, 2013, 03:14:19 PM
Disappointed in Alex Maskey who didn't do Sinn Fein any favours trying to sell a UI to unionists. Mind you Arlene was equally as clueless. Didn't know if she was coming or going but that the DUP all over.
I have to agree with you there. If this poll is about starting a debate then fine. But as things stand there isn't a snowballs chance in hell of a majority of nationalists let alone an overall majority voting for a united Ireland. Before that happens we need to know what this unified state is going to look like. Listen to Conal McDevitt of the SDLP, he keeps reiterating that the debate needs to take place among nationalist first and formost.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that you are Conal McDevitt.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Onion Bag on January 24, 2013, 03:24:31 PM
As someone has already said, i would love to know what a united ireland will look like? Sinn fein will struggle to convince a lot of people if it is going to effect their pocket, i.e higher taxes, price of living, etc. In the current economic climate the ordinary middle of the road nationalist will choose whatever is better for their pocket.
The coke can kickers that lye about the house all day and sponge off the government will vote for a UI because they will get a higher rate of Dole in the republic.
My honest opinion is SF's heads are in the clouds on this
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Saffrongael on January 24, 2013, 03:27:55 PM
As someone has already said, i would love to know what a united ireland will look like? Sinn fein will struggle to convince a lot of people if it is going to effect their pocket, i.e higher taxes, price of living, etc. In the current economic climate the ordinary middle of the road nationalist will choose whatever is better for their pocket.
The coke can kickers that lye about the house all day and sponge off the government will vote for a UI because they will get a higher rate of Dole in the republic.
My honest opinion is SF's heads are in the clouds on this

They will lose their DLA though so there is no chance of them voting for it.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Onion Bag on January 24, 2013, 04:20:05 PM
Is there no DLA in the republic, i know the dole rate is a lot higher than it is in the north
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Saffrongael on January 24, 2013, 04:54:22 PM
Is there no DLA in the republic, i know the dole rate is a lot higher than it is in the north

Dunno but if you are on DLA here you get more dole plus whatever you get on the DLA.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Onion Bag on January 24, 2013, 05:02:45 PM
Cant say either way saffron, but the point  im making is. Anyone with half a brain will take a look at the economic effect and if it is going to hit their pocket on a weekly or monthly basis they have to have a serious look at it. Republicans have fought for a united Ireland for decades and now that there is a possiblity of a Border Poll, it will be interesting to see what they will do if it ends up costing them e.g  £100-£150
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: thebigfella on January 24, 2013, 05:26:50 PM
Alex Maskey/Sinn Fein come across completely inept last night. I actually thing big Arlene didn't do that bad job to begin with; caught him out bumbling about the health service and defence budget ::)

I think after that she just got a bit bored and lazy. Maskey wasn't really putting up a fight and was doing more to convince people on the fence that the status quo is better than Sinn Fein's vision of unity.

 
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Saffrongael on January 24, 2013, 05:28:07 PM
Cant say either way saffron, but the point  im making is. Anyone with half a brain will take a look at the economic effect and if it is going to hit their pocket on a weekly or monthly basis they have to have a serious look at it. Republicans have fought for a united Ireland for decades and now that there is a possiblity of a Border Poll, it will be interesting to see what they will do if it ends up costing them e.g  £100-£150

I agree totally Onion Bag, if someone is down £300-400 a month in a UI do people seriously think they will vote for it, no matter how Republican they see themselves.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Fionntamhnach on January 24, 2013, 05:47:22 PM
Is there no DLA in the republic, i know the dole rate is a lot higher than it is in the north

Dunno but if you are on DLA here you get more dole plus whatever you get on the DLA.
DLA (soon to be replaced by PIP) is a non-means tested allowance for people with disabilities that affect their everyday life in some way whereby the payment contributes to easing cost that the disability can affect. You can be in full time work and still claim DLA. If you have a DLA award and you're looking to claim JSA (either contribution or income based) you don't get awarded any more than someone who hasn't a DLA award. This is not to be confused with ESA, which has replaced Incapacity Benefit, where if you are eligible to be on will see you being put into one of two groups which then gives an additional payment on top of the base amount, the base amount being the same as JSA (£71pw). You don't need to have a DLA award to make a claim for ESA.

If you have a DLA claim or are able to show that you have a disability otherwise, it does have some help on its own with respect to other social security payments e.g. The threshold of the amount you start contributing for rent in Housing Benefit/Local Housing Allowance is higher than normal (bearing in mind that more people who receive at least some award from HB/LHA are in work as opposed to not in work), and applications for one-off claims to the Social Fund are given higher priority. But you don't get a higher rate than normal for JSA.

There are rough equivalents to DLA & ESA in the south, of a mixture between Disability Allowance, Illness Benefit and Invalidity Pension but these are calculated differently for eligibility compared to the UK.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Main Street on January 24, 2013, 05:47:57 PM
Cant say either way saffron, but the point  im making is. Anyone with half a brain will take a look at the economic effect and if it is going to hit their pocket on a weekly or monthly basis they have to have a serious look at it. Republicans have fought for a united Ireland for decades and now that there is a possiblity of a Border Poll, it will be interesting to see what they will do if it ends up costing them e.g  £100-£150
£100 - £150??  Imagine the sheer reckless stupidity of the old rebels who endured hardships, jail, torture, laid their priceless lives on the line, for independence from the Empire, only for generations later where people are shrewdly balancing pennies and pounds, seeing which way they should vote.
All those rebels should have sat down and worked out the financial pros and cons as it affected their wallets, before causing such destruction. If only they had half a brain ::)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: armaghniac on January 24, 2013, 07:02:12 PM
Quote
As someone has already said, i would love to know what a united ireland will look like? Sinn fein will struggle to convince a lot of people if it is going to effect their pocket, i.e higher taxes, price of living, etc. In the current economic climate the ordinary middle of the road nationalist will choose whatever is better for their pocket.

There is an enormous amount of work to be done on this. I suppose the only advantage of proposing the idea is to try and move the debate beyond wild speculation and the pointless detailed discussion of the price of Mars Bars.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on January 24, 2013, 09:17:25 PM
Disappointed in Alex Maskey who didn't do Sinn Fein any favours trying to sell a UI to unionists. Mind you Arlene was equally as clueless. Didn't know if she was coming or going but that the DUP all over.

i.d go with that. maskey was poor he didnt seem too well prepared
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on January 24, 2013, 09:29:34 PM
Disappointed in Alex Maskey who didn't do Sinn Fein any favours trying to sell a UI to unionists. Mind you Arlene was equally as clueless. Didn't know if she was coming or going but that the DUP all over.

i.d go with that. maskey was poor he didnt seem too well prepared

Had he never considered a United Ireland?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Onion Bag on January 24, 2013, 09:36:38 PM
Cant say either way saffron, but the point  im making is. Anyone with half a brain will take a look at the economic effect and if it is going to hit their pocket on a weekly or monthly basis they have to have a serious look at it. Republicans have fought for a united Ireland for decades and now that there is a possiblity of a Border Poll, it will be interesting to see what they will do if it ends up costing them e.g  £100-£150
£100 - £150??  Imagine the sheer reckless stupidity of the old rebels who endured hardships, jail, torture, laid their priceless lives on the line, for independence from the Empire, only for generations later where people are shrewdly balancing pennies and pounds, seeing which way they should vote.
All those rebels should have sat down and worked out the financial pros and cons as it affected their wallets, before causing such destruction. If only they had half a brain ::)

Couldn't agree more Main Street, they would be turning in their graves but it is bound to be a serious concern for SF. If you and Mrs Main Street were going to be e.g £300-£400 worse off every month in a UI, or you had to go the doctor next week and had to pull the cheque book out. Are you trying to tell me that this has not to be considered??
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Tony Baloney on January 24, 2013, 09:58:52 PM
Cant say either way saffron, but the point  im making is. Anyone with half a brain will take a look at the economic effect and if it is going to hit their pocket on a weekly or monthly basis they have to have a serious look at it. Republicans have fought for a united Ireland for decades and now that there is a possiblity of a Border Poll, it will be interesting to see what they will do if it ends up costing them e.g  £100-£150
£100 - £150??  Imagine the sheer reckless stupidity of the old rebels who endured hardships, jail, torture, laid their priceless lives on the line, for independence from the Empire, only for generations later where people are shrewdly balancing pennies and pounds, seeing which way they should vote.
All those rebels should have sat down and worked out the financial pros and cons as it affected their wallets, before causing such destruction. If only they had half a brain ::)

Couldn't agree more Main Street, they would be turning in their graves but it is bound to be a serious concern for SF. If you and Mrs Main Street were going to be e.g £300-£400 worse off every month in a UI, or you had to go the doctor next week and had to pull the cheque book out. Are you trying to tell me that this has not to be considered??
Of course it is a consideration especially for the squeezed middle. It's an easy box to tick for the well off or those on the bru in the North, who let's face it are likely to be at least as well off on the face of it. The thousands struggling to pay the bills every month will have to think long and hard about whether they want to live in a smaller house in a 32 county Ireland. It isnt as cut and dried as some people think. A chap on Nolan made the point last night that SF must be kicking themselves trying to sell a UI when the Rep is in such bad shape economically.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on January 24, 2013, 09:59:31 PM
what maskey should have said 1. the health service thing.. we here in norn iron send our heart patients to dublin for surgery. we also just sent 3 government ministers and their mates to cuba to learn how to run a world class health service on a shoestring budget. would arlene like to live in a dictatorship... obviously not. the level of health care in any country is set by the elected government. it can be as bad or as good as you want.
2. the bank debt.. norn iron has been part of the uk for nearly a century when it was created its industry was the stuff of legend and the envy of the free world. since then britain has stripped it to the bone, the proud unionist work ethic has disappeared in exchange for a slum mentality of handouts and sickness benefits. even now work is plentiful in england while in the 6 counties we are floundering hardly 'as british as finchley'. the 26 counties started out with little or no industry and in isolation following poor decision making re WW1. hated and not trusted in britain and America the two victors. then add a mixture of crap leaders, nepotism,cronyism,treachery,theft, fraud,greed and the rotten den of paedophilia that is the catholic church and add mass emigration.  yet despite this poor start the 26 has survived.
while there is a hiccup in the finances of the 26 at the moment, we here in the "kidney" of the uk cannot really point to anything that remains of the great place the 6 counties used to be nor is there any chance of that situation changing. yet we know the 26 will dig their way out of the mess and probably be the better for it.
3. as has been said in a united ireland the Unionists would probably end up running the place because they'd end up holding the balance of power. that has to better than sitting in Parliament at nordie question time talking to the empty seats.

and on and on maskey needs to brush up if hes going to try to sell a united ireland. or join this board ;)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on January 24, 2013, 10:11:12 PM
Disappointed in Alex Maskey who didn't do Sinn Fein any favours trying to sell a UI to unionists. Mind you Arlene was equally as clueless. Didn't know if she was coming or going but that the DUP all over.

i.d go with that. maskey was poor he didnt seem too well prepared
Declan Kearney didn't have a clue on Hearts & Minds last year either. Has anyone in SF actually thought this through, or considered anything other than the 'romance' of it?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on January 24, 2013, 11:14:21 PM
sec. of state teresa villiers the self proclaimed unionist...? no border poll for tereasa she pigeon holed herself on her arrival and the shinners have turned the spotlight on her. like big al she doesnt like bright lights more brains in a false face
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: armaghniac on January 24, 2013, 11:45:51 PM
Quote
A chap on Nolan made the point last night that SF must be kicking themselves trying to sell a UI when the Rep is in such bad shape economically.

SF, like Bill Gates, probably think things will improve in the Republic.
The state of the Republics economy isn't really the issue though, the problem is the state of the 6 counties. Most nationalists want a united Ireland where all parts are equal, not where one part is an appendage of the other. The 6 counties isn't able to play its part and SF have no policy to enable it to do so, nor even an indication of the need for a policy.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on January 25, 2013, 03:13:57 PM
Disappointed in Alex Maskey who didn't do Sinn Fein any favours trying to sell a UI to unionists. Mind you Arlene was equally as clueless. Didn't know if she was coming or going but that the DUP all over.
I have to agree with you there. If this poll is about starting a debate then fine. But as things stand there isn't a snowballs chance in hell of a majority of nationalists let alone an overall majority voting for a united Ireland. Before that happens we need to know what this unified state is going to look like. Listen to Conal McDevitt of the SDLP, he keeps reiterating that the debate needs to take place among nationalist first and formost.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that you are Conal McDevitt.
And I know who you are! #keep her lit!
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on January 25, 2013, 03:27:50 PM
Sending street fighters like Maskey to take on Arlene is an embarrassment. The shinners need to start engaging with all shades of nationalist opinion. A United Ireland as a concept could be sold and accepted by a majority, however a lot of work needs to be done. It most certainly won't be a left wing workers republic and in its infancy will probably be federal in nature with the Brits underwriting some of the cost...which would suit the exchequer as there would be a net saving. Proper consideration and costings need to be done with the health service. The NHS cannot continue as it is and the Southern Health Service badly needs reform as well. I cringed when Maskey started talking about the Middle eastern conflicts. It is time for Adams to go, he's so proud of the 'RA he can't even admit to membership and his hands aren't completely clean regarding the brother's antics in Dundalk. Bring back Conor Murphy with John O'Dowd and Gerry Kelly and start working towards nationalist unity or at least concensus.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: AQMP on January 25, 2013, 03:29:47 PM
Maskey was nothing short of woeful.  Came across as totally unprepared.  Foster didn't have to counter his arguments...he didn't have any arguments to make!!  Has anyone in SF in the North done any research on how a UI would work (other than the fleg)??
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on January 25, 2013, 07:14:52 PM
Just watched Maskey on Nolan. Brutal. How can SF not have a response to the most obvious of questions?

We also have Martina Anderson saying that republicans don't believe the poll will be successful:
http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/03/15/sinn-fein-does-not-expect-to-win-a-border-poll-but-would-relish-the-opportunity-for-a-public-conversation/

Should SF not have had their own conversation before Gerry announced his campaign?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on January 25, 2013, 07:19:40 PM
what maskey should have said 1. the health service thing.. we here in norn iron send our heart patients to dublin for surgery.
And if Arlene had been on her toes, she could have responded that that was proof that you don't need political unification to have co-operation, where it's clearly beneficial.

3. as has been said in a united ireland the Unionists would probably end up running the place because they'd end up holding the balance of power. that has to better than sitting in Parliament at nordie question time talking to the empty seats.
That argument is unlikely to hold any water for Unionists. Would SF be convinced on the union if they held the balance of power at Westminster?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on January 25, 2013, 07:23:55 PM
its worth remembering that while we are have this discussion on the sinn fein thread that sinn fein are not the only party trying to unite this island. so where are the stoops, the blueshirts, irish labour and fianna fail? the majority of political parties on this island "claim" to be republican. why aren't they also calling for a referendum and trying to work toward a united ireland. its hardly credible to criticize sinn fein for doing exactly what they say they re going to do in every election they contest
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on January 25, 2013, 07:24:20 PM
2. the bank debt.. norn iron has been part of the uk for nearly a century when it was created its industry was the stuff of legend and the envy of the free world.
You do realise that it was part of the UK before 1921 as well?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: trileacman on January 25, 2013, 07:24:37 PM
Just watched Maskey on Nolan. Brutal. How can SF not have a response to the most obvious of questions?

We also have Martina Anderson saying that republicans don't believe the poll will be successful:
http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/03/15/sinn-fein-does-not-expect-to-win-a-border-poll-but-would-relish-the-opportunity-for-a-public-conversation/

Should SF not have had their own conversation before Gerry announced his campaign?

SF are trying to ride two horses here, you'll see it tearing them down the middle shortly.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on January 25, 2013, 07:28:15 PM
its worth remembering that while we are have this discussion on the sinn fein thread that sinn fein are not the only party trying to unite this island. so where are the stoops, the blueshirts, irish labour and fianna fail? the majority of political parties on this island "claim" to be republican. why aren't they also calling for a referendum and trying to work toward a united ireland. its hardly credible to criticize sinn fein for doing exactly what they say they re going to do in every election they contest
Apart from the SDLP's reference to a border poll in their latest manifesto - an ill-advised response to SF's manifesto - show us where FF, FG or Labour have called for this in their recent manifestos.

Whilst it's an aspiration for many, I imagine it's a current priority for few.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on January 25, 2013, 07:35:11 PM
what maskey should have said 1. the health service thing.. we here in norn iron send our heart patients to dublin for surgery.
And if Arlene had been on her toes, she could have responded that that was proof that you don't need political unification to have co-operation, where it's clearly beneficial.

3. as has been said in a united ireland the Unionists would probably end up running the place because they'd end up holding the balance of power. that has to better than sitting in Parliament at nordie question time talking to the empty seats.
That argument is unlikely to hold any water for Unionists. Would SF be convinced on the union if they held the balance of power at Westminster?
its the same doctor maguire.. he sees you in belfast, recomends you for surgery, then meets you in dublin and does the operation ::)
as i said the level of free health care in any country is set by the government in power. re cuba.



Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on January 25, 2013, 07:42:42 PM
its worth remembering that while we are have this discussion on the sinn fein thread that sinn fein are not the only party trying to unite this island. so where are the stoops, the blueshirts, irish labour and fianna fail? the majority of political parties on this island "claim" to be republican. why aren't they also calling for a referendum and trying to work toward a united ireland. its hardly credible to criticize sinn fein for doing exactly what they say they re going to do in every election they contest

In multi-party systems the parties rarely all agree on the same thing.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on January 25, 2013, 07:57:51 PM
what maskey should have said 1. the health service thing.. we here in norn iron send our heart patients to dublin for surgery.
And if Arlene had been on her toes, she could have responded that that was proof that you don't need political unification to have co-operation, where it's clearly beneficial.

3. as has been said in a united ireland the Unionists would probably end up running the place because they'd end up holding the balance of power. that has to better than sitting in Parliament at nordie question time talking to the empty seats.
That argument is unlikely to hold any water for Unionists. Would SF be convinced on the union if they held the balance of power at Westminster?
its the same doctor maguire.. he sees you in belfast, recomends you for surgery, then meets you in dublin and does the operation ::)
as i said the level of free health care in any country is set by the government in power. re cuba.
I don't follow your argument.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on January 25, 2013, 08:23:08 PM
Gerry Adams has again called for the release of Marian Price to attend her sisters funeral after she has been refused compassionate parole.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: hardstation on January 25, 2013, 08:42:40 PM
Refused compassionate parole? Fcukin hell!

I cannot understand how they are getting away with their treatment of Marian Price. It's fcukin scandalous.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: theticklemister on January 25, 2013, 08:49:34 PM
Disgrace. They are hold Marion illegally as it is.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: theticklemister on January 25, 2013, 08:53:25 PM
It said on bbc news she is getting realesed. Where is your source?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on January 25, 2013, 08:57:44 PM
Family statement she got bail but was refused compassionate parole,disgrace ESP after what that UVF crew have been getting away with the past few months.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: stibhan on January 25, 2013, 09:05:13 PM
2. the bank debt.. norn iron has been part of the uk for nearly a century when it was created its industry was the stuff of legend and the envy of the free world.
You do realise that it was part of the UK before 1921 as well?

Northern Ireland wasn't part of the UK before 1921, no more than the state of West/East Germany or indeed Germany itself was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Ireland, however, was. The point certainly stands - after partition, despite the fact that Harlaand and other major business men were against Home Rule, the neglect of industry by the Stormont government was legendary. This was because they much preferred agricultural projects and legislation as R.F. Foster in Modern Ireland suggests.

The major thing that seemed to be lost on everyone in the Nolan studio (but thankfully not most in this thread) was that a United Ireland is not simply an extension of the south but a complete renegotiation of the political establishment of this island. In that sense, when Arlene suggested that 'politically, historically, culturally, economically, socially', or however many other ways she wished to put it, the Union made sense, this was only done on the basis of a comparison with the South as it stands.

So, politically the 6 counties would have much more influence in a United Irish Parliament than they enjoy in Westminster, where I'm fairly sure not one of their elected representatives (save Enoch Powell, who was elected in South Down after the fact) has ever had a ministerial position. If devolution was mimicked in any future settlement, then that would also give the north more power than it currently enjoys.

To suggest that partition has either made sense in any terms historically is ludicrous also, because it's been the root cause of a number of violent conflicts as well as an all-island economy of boom and bust.

Culturally, if it can be gauged, there is really no argument as to which island or state is more successful - the smaller one. That said, the idea that state can easily affect culture through legislation is erroneous, as a glance at the cultural policy that Stormont has enacted will prove. If what Foster meant was in terms of cultural identity then it seems that those oft-quoted census figures demonstrate that British national identity is a minority one in the 6 counties.

Economically, there is no doubt in my mind that a lot of money wasted on unnecessary infrastructural/bureaucratic duplication would be saved by ending partition regardless of whatever subsidies are on offer. Even the amount of money Westminster grants Belfast and its hinterland is a fossil fuel that will eventually run out and is, I would suggest, coming to the tail end of its lifespan. For all the claims of economic illiteracy that Foster has made - some of which are valid - I cannot see how Britain will sustain the failed entity in the long term. It makes sense to join up with the south for the simple reason that anytime there is a better offer across the border the citizens of one state will travel to the other. This 'osmosis' factor almost certainly exacerbated the economic crisis down in the 26 counties ironically seeing as, during the Celtic Tiger, northerners went to Dublin to shop for years. Boom and Bust. When one side of the border booms, the other loses trade: we're a nation of cute hoors. It's absolute economic illiteracy for such a small island to allow for this.

Social partitionism is where the real doublethink is going on in Unionism. In terms of justice, the border has been the equivalent of Andy Dufresne's Raquel Welch Poster for wanted criminals. This extends to white collar crime and general gombeenery as we have seen recently with the Quinns.* Less recently Liam Adams, the Columbia Three and even (rumours have it) a burly Fermanagh footballer have taken use of the peculiar constitutional arrangements of this island to escape the forces of justice. Whereas the border is a constant thorn in the side of both police forces, it is seemly nonexistent in terms of social attitudes as one of Nolan's contributors suggested in saying that Jonathan Bell's attitudes were anything but 'British'. Abortion and gay marriage are two particular areas where many of the DUP's hardliners and the southern bead-bashers would find perfect harmony (not that that is something to celebrate).

In any case, if the UK leaves Europe there's not only the real possibility of custom posts (again), but also the north voting to stay in/out Europe while the UK says different. That happens, and all bets are off.



*The appellations 'crime' and 'gombeenery' here is not meant to imply guilt, before we get into that.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Rossfan on January 25, 2013, 09:18:30 PM
And will Scotland vote to leave the UK???
That could put some cats among a lot of pigeons.

As for Sinn Féin not seeming to know what they want... it seems they just want to have a poll and are obviously of the view that the status quo will win this time around so they haven't thought it through at all.

I already, on a number of occasions on this Board, pointed out the blueprint for the future All Ireland entity - a Confederation with the present 2 "Jurisdictions" being semi autonomous regions with slimmed down Dáil/Stormont running certain local affairs and the "Irish Comfederation" running  major and international affairs.
Obviously the Brits will have to be part of it if Northern "Ulster British" people want to retain British Citizenship/passports into the future, which they should be allowed to.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: give her dixie on January 25, 2013, 09:28:34 PM
Refused compassionate parole? Fcukin hell!

I cannot understand how they are getting away with their treatment of Marian Price. It's fcukin scandalous.

The judge granted her bail today, and then realised she had been granted bail before. The last time the state stepped in and refused to release her. Now, the parole board have decided to stop her from going to her sisters funeral. Not long ago she wasn't allowed to attend her mothers funeral.

The way Marian has been treated has been beyond humane, and we need more than words at this stage to get her released considering her health.

No matter what people may think of her, she at least deserves to be allowed to say goodbye to her sister and attend her funeral.


Statement from the family of Marian Price McGlinchey.

We have received news that Marian's application for compassionate parole following the tragic death of her sister Dolours has been refused, despite her being granted bail earlier today.

Given Marian's current health issues it is laughable that she would pose any kind of security or flight risk. We feel this decision is nothing more than a continuance of a vicious and vindictive campaign on the part of the Prison Service, the Department of Justice and the British secretary of state along with M15 to destroy Marian both physically and mentally.

We would urge all right thinking people to utterly condemn this blatant breach of Marian's fundamental human rights.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 26, 2013, 12:58:25 AM
Absolutely f*****g disgusting treatment of Marion Price and her family.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on January 26, 2013, 02:33:55 AM
The Shinner record never changes.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on January 26, 2013, 09:35:28 AM
The Shinner record never changes.

What record is that?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: omagh_gael on January 26, 2013, 01:06:02 PM
Utterly disgusting decision.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: armaghniac on January 26, 2013, 02:33:07 PM
Quote
No matter what people may think of her, she at least deserves to be allowed to say goodbye to her sister and attend her funeral.

+1


Quote
What record is that?

Probably something from the Wolfe Tones?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: hairierarea on January 26, 2013, 03:47:20 PM
Excellent post there from stibhan.

On the question of why Sinn Féin are looking this border poll when there seems no hope in hell of winning it, I wonder if there is some strategic thinking behind it. The City Hall flag issue brought (a minority) of working-class loyalists into conflict with the state on an issue which didn't seem rationally to merit the anger. SF might be imagining that a border poll might provoke an even bigger reaction from these elements and throw Unionism into serious disarray when so many of the tectonic plates of the Union and EU are moving so unpredictably. But hopefully, some serious discussion of the realistic merits of new and radical solutions would get a better airing than on the Nolan show fail.

Serious dark age stuff in the treatment of Marion Price.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on January 26, 2013, 04:07:33 PM
Ian the Elder has lost it completely: http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0126/364639-border-poll/ (http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0126/364639-border-poll/)

He is nice to the 26 counties and urges Northern Politicians to think of the children.

Has he had a rhetoroptamy?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: bennydorano on January 26, 2013, 04:39:30 PM
Ian's right on this one, Unionism playing with fire calling SF's bluff over a border poll, it has zero chance of success but Pandora's box will be opened & there'll be polls every 7 years until we eventually get there - assuming the first one doesn't end in a humiliating defeat for pro-UI parties & i actually think there'd be a strong chance of that happening.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: armaghniac on January 26, 2013, 08:05:35 PM
The present initiative is premature, but I'd say that SF are in no hurry, they just want the idea out there. However the DUP don't just have the possibility of ignoring it, in the next decade or so there will be an election (local, Euro, assembly or even Westminster) when the votes for nationalist parties will exceed that for unionist parties (with a large block in the middle). Such an event would have triggered the need for discussion on the matter anyway.

There is a long and windy road ahead.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: trileacman on January 26, 2013, 08:35:23 PM
The more you think about it, the most successful tactic from Unionism here would be to support the border poll and in the face of the economic fortunes of both regions revel in the likely outcome of a substantial 70-30 victory.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on January 26, 2013, 10:40:19 PM
the proposed border poll is nothing to do with the 6 counties or the dup or britain! the proposal is a trap set to catch out 'mexican' politicians who dive in head first and oppose it. like d**khead gilmore. how does it look for an irish politician to oppose the unification of his own country? 800 years blah blah..  its a slow death for them like tax on childrens shoes. the outcome of any such poll proposed by sinn fein could be some how linked in the mind of would be "yes" voters to sinn fein getting into a future 26 county government and therefore making the south a more attractive place to them. ie dunging the place out 
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: armaghniac on January 26, 2013, 10:59:01 PM
Quote
the outcome of any such poll proposed by sinn fein could be some how linked in the mind of would be "yes" voters to sinn fein

More likely the association with SF will discredit the entire UI project.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on January 26, 2013, 11:04:13 PM
the outcome of any such poll proposed by sinn fein could be some how linked in the mind of would be "yes" voters to sinn fein getting into a future 26 county government and therefore making the south a more attractive place to them. ie dunging the place out
I have absolutely no idea what that means.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on January 27, 2013, 04:30:32 AM
the proposed border poll is nothing to do with the 6 counties or the dup or britain! the proposal is a trap set to catch out 'mexican' politicians who dive in head first and oppose it. like d**khead gilmore. how does it look for an irish politician to oppose the unification of his own country? 800 years blah blah..  its a slow death for them like tax on childrens shoes. the outcome of any such poll proposed by sinn fein could be some how linked in the mind of would be "yes" voters to sinn fein getting into a future 26 county government and therefore making the south a more attractive place to them. ie dunging the place out

What is your point about Mexico? What has a country in the Western Hemisphere do with anything. You have one grand sense of entitlement. The people of the Irish Republic don't owe you anything. Perhaps it's the good people of the 6 counties who need to ammend their ways than your regular assumptions that it is the fair people of the Independent Irish Republic. I doubht SF will be part of the govrnment of the Republic in the next 15-20 years.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on January 27, 2013, 11:30:47 AM
the proposed border poll is nothing to do with the 6 counties or the dup or britain! the proposal is a trap set to catch out 'mexican' politicians who dive in head first and oppose it. like d**khead gilmore. how does it look for an irish politician to oppose the unification of his own country? 800 years blah blah..  its a slow death for them like tax on childrens shoes. the outcome of any such poll proposed by sinn fein could be some how linked in the mind of would be "yes" voters to sinn fein getting into a future 26 county government and therefore making the south a more attractive place to them. ie dunging the place out

What is your point about Mexico? What has a country in the Western Hemisphere do with anything. You have one grand sense of entitlement. The people of the Irish Republic don't owe you anything. Perhaps it's the good people of the 6 counties who need to ammend their ways than your regular assumptions that it is the fair people of the Independent Irish Republic. I doubht SF will be part of the govrnment of the Republic in the next 15-20 years.
mayo when we take over we will clean the place up. bye bye gombeens, bye bye sliveens, bye bye quangos, bye bye huge pensions. hello fair taxation and sustainable growth and investment in jobs for the ordinary man.

first and foremost bye bye marty whelan what a rotten fukr
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Tubberman on January 27, 2013, 11:46:53 AM
the proposed border poll is nothing to do with the 6 counties or the dup or britain! the proposal is a trap set to catch out 'mexican' politicians who dive in head first and oppose it. like d**khead gilmore. how does it look for an irish politician to oppose the unification of his own country? 800 years blah blah..  its a slow death for them like tax on childrens shoes. the outcome of any such poll proposed by sinn fein could be some how linked in the mind of would be "yes" voters to sinn fein getting into a future 26 county government and therefore making the south a more attractive place to them. ie dunging the place out

What is your point about Mexico? What has a country in the Western Hemisphere do with anything. You have one grand sense of entitlement. The people of the Irish Republic don't owe you anything. Perhaps it's the good people of the 6 counties who need to ammend their ways than your regular assumptions that it is the fair people of the Independent Irish Republic. I doubht SF will be part of the govrnment of the Republic in the next 15-20 years.
mayo when we take over we will clean the place up. bye bye gombeens, bye bye sliveens, bye bye quangos, bye bye huge pensions. hello fair taxation and sustainable growth and investment in jobs for the ordinary man.

first and foremost bye bye marty whelan what a rotten fukr

Your posts are great entertainment, but I still haven't figured out if you actually believe a word of what you type!
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: thewobbler on January 27, 2013, 11:52:29 AM
There is no 'long term' plan with border polls by Sinn Fein. As a party they don't do long term.

As they can't win the poll, there's two main reasons for pursuing it:

One is a nod to the genuinely republican party members who had to be convinced/bullied away from armed struggle, a 'look at least we are trying' kind of thing.

The other is, quite simply, related to a lack of long term plan. Sinn Fein don't have real world policies. There's no grasp on economic realities. In truth I'd be shocked if they could run a sports centre let alone a country. But if they all spend the next few years frantically talking about, campaigning for, then reflecting upon a border poll, they can continue to pay lip service to what they're meant to be doing in government. And with occasional gentle jolt of the company line, their supporters won't even notice that they're not doing what they're meant to do.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on January 27, 2013, 12:32:33 PM
the proposed border poll is nothing to do with the 6 counties or the dup or britain! the proposal is a trap set to catch out 'mexican' politicians who dive in head first and oppose it. like d**khead gilmore. how does it look for an irish politician to oppose the unification of his own country? 800 years blah blah..  its a slow death for them like tax on childrens shoes. the outcome of any such poll proposed by sinn fein could be some how linked in the mind of would be "yes" voters to sinn fein getting into a future 26 county government and therefore making the south a more attractive place to them. ie dunging the place out

What is your point about Mexico? What has a country in the Western Hemisphere do with anything. You have one grand sense of entitlement. The people of the Irish Republic don't owe you anything. Perhaps it's the good people of the 6 counties who need to ammend their ways than your regular assumptions that it is the fair people of the Independent Irish Republic. I doubht SF will be part of the govrnment of the Republic in the next 15-20 years.
mayo when we take over we will clean the place up. bye bye gombeens, bye bye sliveens, bye bye quangos, bye bye huge pensions. hello fair taxation and sustainable growth and investment in jobs for the ordinary man.

first and foremost bye bye marty whelan what a rotten fukr

Your posts are great entertainment, but I still haven't figured out if you actually believe a word of what you type!

did you believe enda when he promised.. roscommon hospital is safe.. we will not raise taxes.. we will not raise our advisors wages.. we will not get our families into cosy gov. jobs.. i'll sort out bank debt.. fine gael have been liars for 80 years
why do you believe him and you dont believe me! maybe if i was from mayo or wore a nice suit or maybe if i was in receipt of a huge wage and going to get a huge pension you'd believe me. sinn fein will sort out the mess lets call it "nordification"
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on January 27, 2013, 12:39:13 PM
the proposed border poll is nothing to do with the 6 counties or the dup or britain! the proposal is a trap set to catch out 'mexican' politicians who dive in head first and oppose it. like d**khead gilmore. how does it look for an irish politician to oppose the unification of his own country? 800 years blah blah..  its a slow death for them like tax on childrens shoes. the outcome of any such poll proposed by sinn fein could be some how linked in the mind of would be "yes" voters to sinn fein getting into a future 26 county government and therefore making the south a more attractive place to them. ie dunging the place out

What is your point about Mexico? What has a country in the Western Hemisphere do with anything. You have one grand sense of entitlement. The people of the Irish Republic don't owe you anything. Perhaps it's the good people of the 6 counties who need to ammend their ways than your regular assumptions that it is the fair people of the Independent Irish Republic. I doubht SF will be part of the govrnment of the Republic in the next 15-20 years.
mayo when we take over we will clean the place up. bye bye gombeens, bye bye sliveens, bye bye quangos, bye bye huge pensions. hello fair taxation and sustainable growth and investment in jobs for the ordinary man.

first and foremost bye bye marty whelan what a rotten fukr

 :D :D :D

I love reading the Willie Frazer of the GAA board.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on January 27, 2013, 12:44:47 PM
join by text that's handy. text sinnfein followed by your name and address to 60060.

just got the new campaign literature looks good

sliveens and gombeens just became an endangered species
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on January 27, 2013, 12:47:02 PM
the proposed border poll is nothing to do with the 6 counties or the dup or britain! the proposal is a trap set to catch out 'mexican' politicians who dive in head first and oppose it. like d**khead gilmore. how does it look for an irish politician to oppose the unification of his own country? 800 years blah blah..  its a slow death for them like tax on childrens shoes. the outcome of any such poll proposed by sinn fein could be some how linked in the mind of would be "yes" voters to sinn fein getting into a future 26 county government and therefore making the south a more attractive place to them. ie dunging the place out

What is your point about Mexico? What has a country in the Western Hemisphere do with anything. You have one grand sense of entitlement. The people of the Irish Republic don't owe you anything. Perhaps it's the good people of the 6 counties who need to ammend their ways than your regular assumptions that it is the fair people of the Independent Irish Republic. I doubht SF will be part of the govrnment of the Republic in the next 15-20 years.
mayo when we take over we will clean the place up. bye bye gombeens, bye bye sliveens, bye bye quangos, bye bye huge pensions. hello fair taxation and sustainable growth and investment in jobs for the ordinary man.

first and foremost bye bye marty whelan what a rotten fukr

In conclusion SF is promising exactly what FF and the rest of the opposition are promising and what the last opposition promised before they got in. I can see why you think it is the promised land.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on January 27, 2013, 12:49:25 PM
the proposed border poll is nothing to do with the 6 counties or the dup or britain! the proposal is a trap set to catch out 'mexican' politicians who dive in head first and oppose it. like d**khead gilmore. how does it look for an irish politician to oppose the unification of his own country? 800 years blah blah..  its a slow death for them like tax on childrens shoes. the outcome of any such poll proposed by sinn fein could be some how linked in the mind of would be "yes" voters to sinn fein getting into a future 26 county government and therefore making the south a more attractive place to them. ie dunging the place out

What is your point about Mexico? What has a country in the Western Hemisphere do with anything. You have one grand sense of entitlement. The people of the Irish Republic don't owe you anything. Perhaps it's the good people of the 6 counties who need to ammend their ways than your regular assumptions that it is the fair people of the Independent Irish Republic. I doubht SF will be part of the govrnment of the Republic in the next 15-20 years.
mayo when we take over we will clean the place up. bye bye gombeens, bye bye sliveens, bye bye quangos, bye bye huge pensions. hello fair taxation and sustainable growth and investment in jobs for the ordinary man.

first and foremost bye bye marty whelan what a rotten fukr

In conclusion SF is promising exactly what FF and the rest of the opposition are promising and what the last opposition promised before they got in. I can see why you think it is the promised land.
it worked for fine gael and labour maybe shinners are not as good at lying
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on January 27, 2013, 02:07:21 PM
the proposed border poll is nothing to do with the 6 counties or the dup or britain! the proposal is a trap set to catch out 'mexican' politicians who dive in head first and oppose it. like d**khead gilmore. how does it look for an irish politician to oppose the unification of his own country? 800 years blah blah..  its a slow death for them like tax on childrens shoes. the outcome of any such poll proposed by sinn fein could be some how linked in the mind of would be "yes" voters to sinn fein getting into a future 26 county government and therefore making the south a more attractive place to them. ie dunging the place out

What is your point about Mexico? What has a country in the Western Hemisphere do with anything. You have one grand sense of entitlement. The people of the Irish Republic don't owe you anything. Perhaps it's the good people of the 6 counties who need to ammend their ways than your regular assumptions that it is the fair people of the Independent Irish Republic. I doubht SF will be part of the govrnment of the Republic in the next 15-20 years.
mayo when we take over we will clean the place up. bye bye gombeens, bye bye sliveens, bye bye quangos, bye bye huge pensions. hello fair taxation and sustainable growth and investment in jobs for the ordinary man.

first and foremost bye bye marty whelan what a rotten fukr

In conclusion SF is promising exactly what FF and the rest of the opposition are promising and what the last opposition promised before they got in. I can see why you think it is the promised land.
it worked for fine gael and labour maybe shinners are not as good at lying

 ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D and they were never in the IRA  ;)  ;)  ;)  ;)  ;)

You know why people choose FG and Labour as much as they dislike much of what they do, its because they voters of the Irish Republic (not the South - that's Munster, or Mexico - that's in North America, not the Irish Free State - that was replaced by the only Republic on the Island of Ireland) want Ireland (the state by it's official name) to come out of this. This will not happen with the Khmer Rouge of Irish politics getting their ink jet stained hands on power in our Republic.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on January 27, 2013, 02:10:46 PM
I think I found you on youtube Lawnseed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfAeMtcURg0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfAeMtcURg0)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Tony Baloney on January 27, 2013, 02:35:57 PM
the proposed border poll is nothing to do with the 6 counties or the dup or britain! the proposal is a trap set to catch out 'mexican' politicians who dive in head first and oppose it. like d**khead gilmore. how does it look for an irish politician to oppose the unification of his own country? 800 years blah blah..  its a slow death for them like tax on childrens shoes. the outcome of any such poll proposed by sinn fein could be some how linked in the mind of would be "yes" voters to sinn fein getting into a future 26 county government and therefore making the south a more attractive place to them. ie dunging the place out

What is your point about Mexico? What has a country in the Western Hemisphere do with anything. You have one grand sense of entitlement. The people of the Irish Republic don't owe you anything. Perhaps it's the good people of the 6 counties who need to ammend their ways than your regular assumptions that it is the fair people of the Independent Irish Republic. I doubht SF will be part of the govrnment of the Republic in the next 15-20 years.
mayo when we take over we will clean the place up. bye bye gombeens, bye bye sliveens, bye bye quangos, bye bye huge pensions. hello fair taxation and sustainable growth and investment in jobs for the ordinary man.

first and foremost bye bye marty whelan what a rotten fukr

Your posts are great entertainment, but I still haven't figured out if you actually believe a word of what you type!

did you believe enda when he promised.. roscommon hospital is safe.. we will not raise taxes.. we will not raise our advisors wages.. we will not get our families into cosy gov. jobs.. i'll sort out bank debt.. fine gael have been liars for 80 years
why do you believe him and you dont believe me! maybe if i was from mayo or wore a nice suit or maybe if i was in receipt of a huge wage and going to get a huge pension you'd believe me. sinn fein will sort out the mess lets call it "nordification"
They have done a fine job in the North  ???
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Tubberman on January 27, 2013, 02:43:54 PM
the proposed border poll is nothing to do with the 6 counties or the dup or britain! the proposal is a trap set to catch out 'mexican' politicians who dive in head first and oppose it. like d**khead gilmore. how does it look for an irish politician to oppose the unification of his own country? 800 years blah blah..  its a slow death for them like tax on childrens shoes. the outcome of any such poll proposed by sinn fein could be some how linked in the mind of would be "yes" voters to sinn fein getting into a future 26 county government and therefore making the south a more attractive place to them. ie dunging the place out

What is your point about Mexico? What has a country in the Western Hemisphere do with anything. You have one grand sense of entitlement. The people of the Irish Republic don't owe you anything. Perhaps it's the good people of the 6 counties who need to ammend their ways than your regular assumptions that it is the fair people of the Independent Irish Republic. I doubht SF will be part of the govrnment of the Republic in the next 15-20 years.
mayo when we take over we will clean the place up. bye bye gombeens, bye bye sliveens, bye bye quangos, bye bye huge pensions. hello fair taxation and sustainable growth and investment in jobs for the ordinary man.

first and foremost bye bye marty whelan what a rotten fukr

Your posts are great entertainment, but I still haven't figured out if you actually believe a word of what you type!

did you believe enda when he promised.. roscommon hospital is safe.. we will not raise taxes.. we will not raise our advisors wages.. we will not get our families into cosy gov. jobs.. i'll sort out bank debt.. fine gael have been liars for 80 years
why do you believe him and you dont believe me! maybe if i was from mayo or wore a nice suit or maybe if i was in receipt of a huge wage and going to get a huge pension you'd believe me. sinn fein will sort out the mess lets call it "nordification"

Yes, that's exactly what's needed. Tribal warfare followed by barely contained contempt, followed by the protagonists cosying up to each other in their plush offices while a large, poorly educated, work-shy working class take to the streets rioting over an issue they don't seem to understand.
How soon can you bring us this type of progress?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on January 27, 2013, 05:33:15 PM
Lawnseed do you really believe that if you and the Shinners Party cannot convince the generally nationalist &/or republican born and bred 26 county folk on this board, what hope in hell have you with the rest of the population?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on January 28, 2013, 10:30:59 AM
Mayo, I really think you are a genius at stirring it up. If we want a rational debate on the whole reunification project then we need to stop references to Mexico, Free State, Nordies etc... I don't agree with Arlene Forster much, but she hit the nail on the head when she told Alex Maskey that Sinn Fein were economically illiterate. Masky couldn't even muster a coherent reply. There may well be an economic argument for Unity as well as it being a noble aspiration, if so lets here it. If the call for a border poll is only meant to start the debate then that's fine but SF should say so. If it is electioneering and aimed at exposing the very real hypocrisy of FF and FG then that is totally disrespectful of all those in the North who voted for SF. The reunification of Ireland within the UK should also be seriously considered in addition to all the possible Irish only solutions. That is if we are serious about reaching out to our Unionist fellow Irishmen...or is that just more SF bluff and BS?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on January 28, 2013, 10:49:05 AM
Mayo, I really think you are a genius at stirring it up. If we want a rational debate on the whole reunification project then we need to stop references to Mexico, Free State, Nordies etc... I don't agree with Arlene Forster much, but she hit the nail on the head when she told Alex Maskey that Sinn Fein were economically illiterate. Masky couldn't even muster a coherent reply. There may well be an economic argument for Unity as well as it being a noble aspiration, if so lets here it. If the call for a border poll is only meant to start the debate then that's fine but SF should say so. If it is electioneering and aimed at exposing the very real hypocrisy of FF and FG then that is totally disrespectful of all those in the North who voted for SF. The reunification of Ireland within the UK should also be seriously considered in addition to all the possible Irish only solutions. That is if we are serious about reaching out to our Unionist fellow Irishmen...or is that just more SF bluff and BS?

This is an important point. SF represents two different things either side of the border.

Those of us in the South might see them in a new light if we had to grow up policed by the RUC/UDR and ruled by Unionists. Those from the North might view them differently if they saw the Marxist regime they have in mind for us all. It could easily be worse than the RUC/UDR etc.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 28, 2013, 11:11:54 AM
This is an important point. SF represents two different things either side of the border.
At least they exist and function on both sides of the border; something which still cannot be said about the self titled 'United Ireland Party' or about 'The Republican Party'. Makes you wonder...how can a party give itself such a grand non-partitionist title, but refuse to function north of the border? Must be called (to paraphrase you, muppet) "representing two different things on one side of the border".

Those of us in the South might see them in a new light if we had to grow up policed by the RUC/UDR and ruled by Unionists. Those from the North might view them differently if they saw the Marxist regime they have in mind for us all. It could easily be worse than the RUC/UDR etc.
Hard to bate a bit of the ol' sensationalism.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on January 28, 2013, 11:30:44 AM
Mayo, I really think you are a genius at stirring it up. If we want a rational debate on the whole reunification project then we need to stop references to Mexico, Free State, Nordies etc... I don't agree with Arlene Forster much, but she hit the nail on the head when she told Alex Maskey that Sinn Fein were economically illiterate. Masky couldn't even muster a coherent reply. There may well be an economic argument for Unity as well as it being a noble aspiration, if so lets here it. If the call for a border poll is only meant to start the debate then that's fine but SF should say so. If it is electioneering and aimed at exposing the very real hypocrisy of FF and FG then that is totally disrespectful of all those in the North who voted for SF. The reunification of Ireland within the UK should also be seriously considered in addition to all the possible Irish only solutions. That is if we are serious about reaching out to our Unionist fellow Irishmen...or is that just more SF bluff

The 26 join the U.K. It's a never, never, never from me. Within a United States of Europe, now that I would welcome.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on January 28, 2013, 11:33:11 AM
This is an important point. SF represents two different things either side of the border.
At least they exist and function on both sides of the border; something which still cannot be said about the self titled 'United Ireland Party' or about 'The Republican Party'. Makes you wonder...how can a party give itself such a grand non-partitionist title, but refuse to function north of the border? Must be called (to paraphrase you, muppet) "representing two different things on one side of the border".

Those of us in the South might see them in a new light if we had to grow up policed by the RUC/UDR and ruled by Unionists. Those from the North might view them differently if they saw the Marxist regime they have in mind for us all. It could easily be worse than the RUC/UDR etc.
Hard to bate a bit of the ol' sensationalism.

O you know us Fine Gaelers always able to spot a red under the bed ;) Jokes aside I always wondered how the Commie-Catholic thing is going to work!
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on January 28, 2013, 11:45:09 AM
This is an important point. SF represents two different things either side of the border.
At least they exist and function on both sides of the border; something which still cannot be said about the self titled 'United Ireland Party' or about 'The Republican Party'. Makes you wonder...how can a party give itself such a grand non-partitionist title, but refuse to function north of the border? Must be called (to paraphrase you, muppet) "representing two different things on one side of the border".


In conclusion themmuns are worse.
Quote
Those of us in the South might see them in a new light if we had to grow up policed by the RUC/UDR and ruled by Unionists. Those from the North might view them differently if they saw the Marxist regime they have in mind for us all. It could easily be worse than the RUC/UDR etc.
Hard to bate a bit of the ol' sensationalism.

No denial though.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Rossfan on January 28, 2013, 11:57:06 AM
If Sinn Féin want to get above the 15% mark in elections in the 26 they'll have to move towards the already overcrowded Centre.
They'll also have to stop going around opposing tax increase while calling for more public expenditure at the same time.

And of course the "Lawnseededness" will have to be jettisoned  ;D
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 28, 2013, 12:00:03 PM
This is an important point. SF represents two different things either side of the border.
At least they exist and function on both sides of the border; something which still cannot be said about the self titled 'United Ireland Party' or about 'The Republican Party'. Makes you wonder...how can a party give itself such a grand non-partitionist title, but refuse to function north of the border? Must be called (to paraphrase you, muppet) "representing two different things on one side of the border".


In conclusion themmuns are worse.
By quite a long way. Not least for the reason outlined above.

Those of us in the South might see them in a new light if we had to grow up policed by the RUC/UDR and ruled by Unionists. Those from the North might view them differently if they saw the Marxist regime they have in mind for us all. It could easily be worse than the RUC/UDR etc.
Hard to bate a bit of the ol' sensationalism.
No denial though.
Hardly necessary. Your remark goes into the same category of gleeful sensationalism as comments such as "the IRA butchered thousands of innocent people" (Jim Allister) or "The IRA were behind the horseburger scandal" (Willy Frazer). Suitable company.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on January 28, 2013, 12:19:23 PM
This is an important point. SF represents two different things either side of the border.
At least they exist and function on both sides of the border; something which still cannot be said about the self titled 'United Ireland Party' or about 'The Republican Party'. Makes you wonder...how can a party give itself such a grand non-partitionist title, but refuse to function north of the border? Must be called (to paraphrase you, muppet) "representing two different things on one side of the border".


In conclusion themmuns are worse.
By quite a long way. Not least for the reason outlined above.

Those of us in the South might see them in a new light if we had to grow up policed by the RUC/UDR and ruled by Unionists. Those from the North might view them differently if they saw the Marxist regime they have in mind for us all. It could easily be worse than the RUC/UDR etc.
Hard to bate a bit of the ol' sensationalism.
No denial though.
Hardly necessary. Your remark goes into the same category of gleeful sensationalism as comments such as "the IRA butchered thousands of innocent people" (Jim Allister) or "The IRA were behind the horseburger scandal" (Willy Frazer). Suitable company.

Hard to bate a bit of sensationalism, isn't it?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: stibhan on January 28, 2013, 12:28:14 PM
Of course Sinn Féin represent two different things on each side of the border - ever since they decided to stand for elections and take their seats in both jurisdictions, they have had to formulate different strategies for each state because of the peculiar situation in which the north and south found themselves in. The fact that modern provisional Sinn Féin was founded in Belfast, and that the Official IRA from whom they split controlled major state media and broadcast institutions in the 1970's South had a large impact on their public and political image.

That is outwith the fact that they already had a solid nationalist base in the north as opposed to a more grass-roots, underground base in the south. The reality is that if you aren't actively campaigning for election and representation in a state, and instead are repudiating the means of representation, then unless there is a significant social factor to foster solidarity with your voters (Catholics being second class citizens in the north) you will find it difficult to retain interest.

Despite these differences, they still retain a more coherent political strategy in terms of the north than any other party you'd care to name in the south.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on January 28, 2013, 12:50:53 PM
They are implementing cuts in the North that they attack in the South.

This is from the SF website on Economy, apparently without a hint of irony.

http://www.sinnfein.ie/economy (http://www.sinnfein.ie/economy)

Quote
Those who claimed that they, and they alone, knew how to run the economy have been exposed for the fraudsters that they are. Sinn Féin was berated when we pointed out the obvious flaws in government policy – the creation of a property bubble, the over reliance on consumption taxes, the growing gap between the ‘haves’ and the ‘have nots’, the rewarding of private greed at the expense of the public good, the failure to think strategically and in the long term interests of the citizens.

We were right on these matters.

Quote
We can build a country and an economy that creates wealth and shares wealth, that is based on enterprising excellence and social solidarity. A country defined by Irish values of decency, fair play and celebration of achievement.

We can do this because that is who we are. That is what we are about, that is what our economy must be about. We need a plan to achieve this. We need leadership and Sinn Féin can offer it.

Comic genius.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on January 28, 2013, 01:20:56 PM
If Sinn Féin want to get above the 15% mark in elections in the 26 they'll have to move towards the already overcrowded Centre.
They'll also have to stop going around opposing tax increase while calling for more public expenditure at the same time.

And of course the "Lawnseededness" will have to be jettisoned  ;D
As Arlene said economically illiterate.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: johnneycool on January 28, 2013, 01:59:00 PM
Fúck, if Arlene is calling anyone economically illiterate, then that is the worst insult imaginable.

She hasn't got the first notion herself.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: seafoid on January 28, 2013, 02:22:05 PM

http://thebrokenelbow.com/2013/01/24/dolours-price-rip/#comments

I know from conversations with her that DP had concluded that the Provos campaign was going nowhere, that it had been irredeemably infiltrated by the British and that it was pointless continuing
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 28, 2013, 03:07:58 PM
They are implementing tory cuts in the North that they attack in the South.
Fixed that for you. SF has no fiscal control in the north. If I were living in the 26, I'd be more concerned about the economic literacy of successive government parties in the south who did have fiscal control/surrendered so much fiscal sovereignty/bankrupted the state/continue implementing the disastrous policies they expended so much effort into condemning.

Quote
“Anglo Irish Bank is not getting another cent of our money and any bank coming to us looking for more money is going to have to show how they’re going to impose losses on their junior bondholders, on their senior bondholders and their other creditors before they come looking to us for anymore money. Not another cent.” (Leo Varadkar)

Quote
"We are also committed to maintaining the services in Roscommon County Hosiptal. You know down in the Accident and Emergency Unit what it takes and what needs to be done, and what can be done in your own local hospital here. And we will protect and defend that." (Enda Kenny)

Comic genius alright.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on January 28, 2013, 03:18:19 PM
Would they be implementing Tory cuts as part of a British administration then?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 28, 2013, 03:39:32 PM
Would they be implementing Tory cuts as part of a British administration then?

Well last I checked the Good Friday Agreement was being implemented alright, and I'm unaware of Ireland having been re-united overnight. As I mentioned earlier, the administration you speak of has no fiscal sovereignty.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Rossfan on January 28, 2013, 04:04:56 PM
They are implementing tory cuts in the North that they attack in the South.
Fixed that for you. SF has no fiscal control in the north. If I were living in the 26, I'd be more concerned about the economic literacy of successive government parties in the south who did have fiscal control/surrendered so much fiscal sovereignty/bankrupted the state/continue implementing the disastrous policies they expended so much effort into condemning.

Quote
“Anglo Irish Bank is not getting another cent of our money and any bank coming to us looking for more money is going to have to show how they’re going to impose losses on their junior bondholders, on their senior bondholders and their other creditors before they come looking to us for anymore money. Not another cent.” (Leo Varadkar)

Quote
"We are also committed to maintaining the services in Roscommon County Hosiptal. You know down in the Accident and Emergency Unit what it takes and what needs to be done, and what can be done in your own local hospital here. And we will protect and defend that." (Enda Kenny)

Comic genius alright.

A bit like "not an ounce, not a bullett" eh?? :-[
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 28, 2013, 04:14:03 PM
They are implementing tory cuts in the North that they attack in the South.
Fixed that for you. SF has no fiscal control in the north. If I were living in the 26, I'd be more concerned about the economic literacy of successive government parties in the south who did have fiscal control/surrendered so much fiscal sovereignty/bankrupted the state/continue implementing the disastrous policies they expended so much effort into condemning.

Quote
“Anglo Irish Bank is not getting another cent of our money and any bank coming to us looking for more money is going to have to show how they’re going to impose losses on their junior bondholders, on their senior bondholders and their other creditors before they come looking to us for anymore money. Not another cent.” (Leo Varadkar)

Quote
"We are also committed to maintaining the services in Roscommon County Hosiptal. You know down in the Accident and Emergency Unit what it takes and what needs to be done, and what can be done in your own local hospital here. And we will protect and defend that." (Enda Kenny)

Comic genius alright.

A bit like "not an ounce, not a bullett" eh?? :-[

No Sinn Féin election promise ever said such a thing. I believe you are (mis)quoting street graffiti.

(P.s. Not only did you misquote it, but as is the case with a lot of street graffiti, you spelt it wrong)  :-[
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on January 28, 2013, 04:22:01 PM
Nally your comic efforts are genuinely funny.

But of course you don't engage on any point.

Everything is everyone else's fault, but SF, who can do no wrong, can fix everything for everybody. You may be surprised but there are people who are sceptical.

Aside from the populist nonsense, one of the biggest problems is the hypocrisy. For example the behaviour over the recent death of a young Gárda contrasts sharply with the Gerry McCabe case.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on January 28, 2013, 04:37:01 PM
Of course Sinn Féin represent two different things on each side of the border - ever since they decided to stand for elections and take their seats in both jurisdictions, they have had to formulate different strategies for each state because of the peculiar situation in which the north and south found themselves in. The fact that modern provisional Sinn Féin was founded in Belfast, and that the Official IRA from whom they split controlled major state media and broadcast institutions in the 1970's South had a large impact on their public and political image.

That is outwith the fact that they already had a solid nationalist base in the north as opposed to a more grass-roots, underground base in the south. The reality is that if you aren't actively campaigning for election and representation in a state, and instead are repudiating the means of representation, then unless there is a significant social factor to foster solidarity with your voters (Catholics being second class citizens in the north) you will find it difficult to retain interest.

Despite these differences, they still retain a more coherent political strategy in terms of the north than any other party you'd care to name in the south.

As a North of Ireland party I'd expect SF to have some sort of policy towards the North. They are as out of place in the politics of The Republic as the British Conservative Party or French Gaulists.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 28, 2013, 04:37:23 PM
Nally your comic efforts are genuinely funny.
Your arrogance is genuinely as bad as always.

But of course you don't engage on any point.
Sorry, I was busy reading some of your recent 'contributions' to the thread, what was that you were saying about hypocrisy?

Everything is everyone else's fault, but SF, who can do no wrong, can fix everything for everybody. You may be surprised but there are people who are sceptical.
We were talking about the economic shambles of the 26 counties and the utter torture that recent governments have been putting/are continuing to put people through. Blame lies fairly and squarely with FF/FG/Lab. As for "SF can do no wrong", I've criticised them many times on this board.

Aside from the populist nonsense, one of the biggest problems is the hypocrisy. For example the behaviour over the recent death of a young Gárda contrasts sharply with the Gerry McCabe case.
Populist nonsense? Like Leo's lies about "not a cent"? Or like Enda's "protecting and defending" Roscommon County Hospital? Oh, and if you're going to dig up a victim's name to make cheap shots, at least spell his name correctly.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on January 28, 2013, 04:47:51 PM
Nally your comic efforts are genuinely funny.
Your arrogance is genuinely as bad as always.

But of course you don't engage on any point.
Sorry, I was busy reading some of your recent 'contributions' to the thread, what was that you were saying about hypocrisy?

Everything is everyone else's fault, but SF, who can do no wrong, can fix everything for everybody. You may be surprised but there are people who are sceptical.
We were talking about the economic shambles of the 26 counties and the utter torture that recent governments have been putting/are continuing to put people through. Blame lies fairly and squarely with FF/FG/Lab. As for "SF can do no wrong", I've criticised them many times on this board.

Aside from the populist nonsense, one of the biggest problems is the hypocrisy. For example the behaviour over the recent death of a young Gárda contrasts sharply with the Gerry McCabe case.
Populist nonsense? Like Leo's lies about "not a cent"? Or like Enda's "protecting and defending" Roscommon County Hospital? Oh, and if you're going to dig up a victim's name to make cheap shots, at least spell his name correctly.

'Dig up'? You are having a laugh. This is SF hypocrisy in a nutshell. You attack me for misspelling his name. SF however will not condemn those who shot him dead. Which do you think is more damaging? There are many others that need to be dug up as well but SF would rather we forgot about them.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 28, 2013, 05:06:24 PM
'Dig up'? You are having a laugh. This is SF hypocrisy in a nutshell. You attack me for misspelling his name. SF however will not condemn those who shot him dead. Which do you think is more damaging? There are many others that need to be dug up as well but SF would rather we forgot about them.
I'm not having a laugh at all. Just making a nod to the fact that when SF are spoken about in the 26 counties, at least one of the (seemingly) only two victims of the troubles will inevitably be dug up, and nine times out of ten, one of them will not even have their name spelt correctly by those that claim to care so much. As for it not being condemned, to quote Martin McGuinness “I unreservedly condemned the murder of Jerry McCabe."

There are many others that need to be dug up as well but SF would rather we forgot about them.
Hypocritical, you say? The only time anyone in the south wants to dig up a few victims, is where SF are concerned. Could many of the people who gleefully dig up the usual two names, also name one person killed in the Dublin/Monaghan bombs? Nah. They're not interested enough. I'm sure when Queen Lizzy came over you weren't talking then about the need for victims names to be dug up. 'The past is the past' you'd have been saying.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on January 28, 2013, 05:15:48 PM
'Dig up'? You are having a laugh. This is SF hypocrisy in a nutshell. You attack me for misspelling his name. SF however will not condemn those who shot him dead. Which do you think is more damaging? There are many others that need to be dug up as well but SF would rather we forgot about them.
I'm not having a laugh at all. Just making a nod to the fact that when SF are spoken about in the 26 counties, at least one of the (seemingly) only two victims of the troubles will inevitably be dug up, and nine times out of ten, one of them will not even have their name spelt correctly by those that claim to care so much. As for it not being condemned, to quote Martin McGuinness “I unreservedly condemned the murder of Jerry McCabe."

There are many others that need to be dug up as well but SF would rather we forgot about them.
Hypocritical, you say? The only time anyone in the south wants to dig up a few victims, is where SF are concerned. Could many of the people who gleefully dig up the usual two names, also name one person killed in the Dublin/Monaghan bombs? Nah. They're not interested enough. I'm sure when Queen Lizzy came over you weren't talking then about the need for victims names to be dug up. 'The past is the past' you'd have been saying.

Brits killing Irish is hideous, but still not as bad as people pretending to fight for Ireland killing Irish people.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 28, 2013, 05:21:22 PM
'Dig up'? You are having a laugh. This is SF hypocrisy in a nutshell. You attack me for misspelling his name. SF however will not condemn those who shot him dead. Which do you think is more damaging? There are many others that need to be dug up as well but SF would rather we forgot about them.
I'm not having a laugh at all. Just making a nod to the fact that when SF are spoken about in the 26 counties, at least one of the (seemingly) only two victims of the troubles will inevitably be dug up, and nine times out of ten, one of them will not even have their name spelt correctly by those that claim to care so much. As for it not being condemned, to quote Martin McGuinness “I unreservedly condemned the murder of Jerry McCabe."

There are many others that need to be dug up as well but SF would rather we forgot about them.
Hypocritical, you say? The only time anyone in the south wants to dig up a few victims, is where SF are concerned. Could many of the people who gleefully dig up the usual two names, also name one person killed in the Dublin/Monaghan bombs? Nah. They're not interested enough. I'm sure when Queen Lizzy came over you weren't talking then about the need for victims names to be dug up. 'The past is the past' you'd have been saying.

Brits killing Irish is hideous, but still not as bad as people pretending to fight for Ireland killing Irish people.
Hideous, but seemingly tolerable south of the border. Well, since 1921 anyway.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on January 28, 2013, 05:24:20 PM
'Dig up'? You are having a laugh. This is SF hypocrisy in a nutshell. You attack me for misspelling his name. SF however will not condemn those who shot him dead. Which do you think is more damaging? There are many others that need to be dug up as well but SF would rather we forgot about them.
I'm not having a laugh at all. Just making a nod to the fact that when SF are spoken about in the 26 counties, at least one of the (seemingly) only two victims of the troubles will inevitably be dug up, and nine times out of ten, one of them will not even have their name spelt correctly by those that claim to care so much. As for it not being condemned, to quote Martin McGuinness “I unreservedly condemned the murder of Jerry McCabe."

There are many others that need to be dug up as well but SF would rather we forgot about them.
Hypocritical, you say? The only time anyone in the south wants to dig up a few victims, is where SF are concerned. Could many of the people who gleefully dig up the usual two names, also name one person killed in the Dublin/Monaghan bombs? Nah. They're not interested enough. I'm sure when Queen Lizzy came over you weren't talking then about the need for victims names to be dug up. 'The past is the past' you'd have been saying.

Brits killing Irish is hideous, but still not as bad as people pretending to fight for Ireland killing Irish people.
Hideous, but seemingly tolerable south of the border. Well, since 1921 anyway.

You ignored the bit about Irish people shooting Irish people. No problem with that.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 28, 2013, 05:31:40 PM
'Dig up'? You are having a laugh. This is SF hypocrisy in a nutshell. You attack me for misspelling his name. SF however will not condemn those who shot him dead. Which do you think is more damaging? There are many others that need to be dug up as well but SF would rather we forgot about them.
I'm not having a laugh at all. Just making a nod to the fact that when SF are spoken about in the 26 counties, at least one of the (seemingly) only two victims of the troubles will inevitably be dug up, and nine times out of ten, one of them will not even have their name spelt correctly by those that claim to care so much. As for it not being condemned, to quote Martin McGuinness “I unreservedly condemned the murder of Jerry McCabe."

There are many others that need to be dug up as well but SF would rather we forgot about them.
Hypocritical, you say? The only time anyone in the south wants to dig up a few victims, is where SF are concerned. Could many of the people who gleefully dig up the usual two names, also name one person killed in the Dublin/Monaghan bombs? Nah. They're not interested enough. I'm sure when Queen Lizzy came over you weren't talking then about the need for victims names to be dug up. 'The past is the past' you'd have been saying.

Brits killing Irish is hideous, but still not as bad as people pretending to fight for Ireland killing Irish people.
Hideous, but seemingly tolerable south of the border. Well, since 1921 anyway.

You ignored the bit about Irish people shooting Irish people. No problem with that.

Well it seems that was tolerable too. Well, before 1921 anyway.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on January 28, 2013, 06:06:05 PM
Well it seems that was tolerable too. Well, before 1921 anyway.

SF seems to think so. I wouldn't.

As for the Dublin/Monaghan bombers, if people connected to the scum behind that were looking for my vote, I'd be demanding answers from them too.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: stibhan on January 28, 2013, 07:22:27 PM
Of course Sinn Féin represent two different things on each side of the border - ever since they decided to stand for elections and take their seats in both jurisdictions, they have had to formulate different strategies for each state because of the peculiar situation in which the north and south found themselves in. The fact that modern provisional Sinn Féin was founded in Belfast, and that the Official IRA from whom they split controlled major state media and broadcast institutions in the 1970's South had a large impact on their public and political image.

That is outwith the fact that they already had a solid nationalist base in the north as opposed to a more grass-roots, underground base in the south. The reality is that if you aren't actively campaigning for election and representation in a state, and instead are repudiating the means of representation, then unless there is a significant social factor to foster solidarity with your voters (Catholics being second class citizens in the north) you will find it difficult to retain interest.

Despite these differences, they still retain a more coherent political strategy in terms of the north than any other party you'd care to name in the south.

As a North of Ireland party I'd expect SF to have some sort of policy towards the North. They are as out of place in the politics of The Republic as the British Conservative Party or French Gaulists.

That is a ridiculous comparison, and I'm not entirely sure how you see a lack of policy in Sinn Féin with regards the 6 counties?

As I see it, their policy 'towards' the north is dictated by the day-to-day situations they find themselves in as they govern up there. They have a pragmatic attitude towards the short-term improvement of a) public services; b) community and political relations; c) equality in all aspects of culture & society; and d) job creation. Their long-term solution is no secret, and this seems to be fairly well reflected in Adams' call for a border poll last weekend.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: armaghniac on January 28, 2013, 08:07:20 PM
Quote
As I see it, their policy 'towards' the north is dictated by the day-to-day situations they find themselves in as they govern up there. They have a pragmatic attitude towards the short-term improvement of a) public services; b) community and political relations; c) equality in all aspects of culture & society; and d) job creation. Their long-term solution is no secret, and this seems to be fairly well reflected in Adams' call for a border poll last weekend

In order for Adams border poll to work, then public expenditure in NI must be reduced and tax income must be increased.
What policies (notwithstanding any lack of fiscal control) do SF have to
- reduce NI public expenditure?
- increase NI tax take?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on January 28, 2013, 08:08:15 PM
All bickering aside, this shooting in Louth could be an opportunity to do something positive.

It is time to move for a cross-border policing arrangement. This would lead to greater pooling of resources and an end to thugs hiding behind the notional border. Nationalists/Republicans would surely be all for it, with the exception of the Dissidents and other criminals. The apprehension of Dissidents in turn could be used to persuade Unionists of the value of such an agreement.

Will any party step up?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: armaghniac on January 28, 2013, 08:27:53 PM
Re the All Ireland poll and interesing post on Politics.ie. It seems that the NI tickers on the census form probably vote nationalist.
------------------------------------
I analysed the census data of 2011 and correlated it with the NI election results to get a more accurate breakdown of the figures specifically in relation to the "northern Irish only" percentage, these are the areas i have completed so far. i think the figures demonstrate that practically all of the people who choose the "northern irish only" option must come exclusively from the nationalist catholic demographic as it is the only way that the numbers fit with the election results on the other side the "british only" and "british and NI" or "british and irish" etc options correlate with the entire protestant community and fits perfectly into the election results. Also the term irish/northern irish is present to a not insignificant degree in the the total perentage generated for the protestant communty.

Newry and Morne
79.4% catholic
18% protestant
100%= 29 seats
Nationalist = 23 seats =79.3%
Unionist = 5 seats = 17.2%

census 2011
Irish only 49.75% Irish and northern Irish only (I+NI) 1.74% and northern Irish (NI) only 23.1% =74.59%
british only 16.87 + British and NI (B+NI) only 2.11= 18.98%


Down district Council
62.5% catholic
32.1% protestant
seats 23
Nationalist seats= 14 = 60.86 %
Unionist seats = 6 = 28.57%

census 2011
British only = 33.06% + british and NI only 4.27% = 37.33%
Irish only 28.22% , NI only 26.98%, I+NI 1.37 = 56.57 %


Dungannon and South tyrone
Catholic 64.1%
Protestant 33%
22 seats
Nationalist = 12 = 54.54%
Unionist 10= 45.45%

Census 2011
Irish only 35.68 % I+ NI only = 1.32%, NI only = 21.96% = 58.96%
British only 26.51%,, B+NI only 3.06%, B+NI+I= 0.55%= 30.12%

Ballymena
Catholic 22.6%
Protestant 71.4%
seats 24
Nationalist = 4 = 16.6%
Unionist = 16= 66.6%

Census 2011
British only = 57.87% + british and NI only= 8.96% = 66.83%
Irish only= 8.81% + I=NI only = 0.58%, NI only 17.2%= 26.59%


Fermanagh District Council

Catholic 59.2%
Protestant 37.8%
seats 23
Nationalist = 13 = 56.52%
Unionist =10= 43.4%

Census 2011
Irish only = 33.39 % , I+NI only = 1.12%, NI only = 23.94%= 58.45%
British only 31.92 %, British + NI =3.7% = 35.62%

Coleraine
Catholic 28%
Protestant 65.3
seats 22
Unionist =14 = 63.6%
Nationalist = 5 = 22.72%

census 2011

british only 51.43 + B+NI only = 8.22 + B=I + NI =1.27 = 60.92%
Irish only = 11.47, NI only 21.03, I+NI = .76 = 33.26%

Armagh City

48.4% catholic
48% protestant
seats 22
nationalist = 11 = 50%
unionist =11 = 50%

census 2011

british only 37.68% , British and Ni only 5.17%, B+I+NI =0.65%= 43.5%
Irish only = 29.91%, NI only 20.16%, I+NI=0.93% = 51.1%


Strabane

Catholic 64.9%
Protestant 33.7%
seats 14
Nationalist= 9= 64.28
Unionist = 5= 35.7%

census 2011
Irish only 36.81%, NI only, 26.55%, I+NI only= 1.25= 64.61%
british only 28.41%, B+NI only= 3.37%, B+I+NI =0.47% = 32.25%



Magherfelt District

Catholic 66%
Protestant 31.5%
seats = 16
Nationalist = 11 = 68.75%
Unionist= 5 = 31.25%

Census
Irish only = 39.31%, NI only= 23.94%, I+NI only 1.88= 65.13%
british only = 26.74%, B+NI = 3.27%, B+I+NI=0.5%= 30.51%
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: LeoMc on January 29, 2013, 09:00:35 AM
Disappointed in Alex Maskey who didn't do Sinn Fein any favours trying to sell a UI to unionists. Mind you Arlene was equally as clueless. Didn't know if she was coming or going but that the DUP all over.
I have to agree with you there. If this poll is about starting a debate then fine. But as things stand there isn't a snowballs chance in hell of a majority of nationalists let alone an overall majority voting for a united Ireland. Before that happens we need to know what this unified state is going to look like. Listen to Conal McDevitt of the SDLP, he keeps reiterating that the debate needs to take place among nationalist first and formost.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that you are Conal McDevitt.
And I know who you are! #keep her lit!

I would be disappointed if you were right.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on January 29, 2013, 09:25:44 AM
Would they be implementing Tory cuts as part of a British administration then?

Well last I checked the Good Friday Agreement was being implemented alright, and I'm unaware of Ireland having been re-united overnight. As I mentioned earlier, the administration you speak of has no fiscal sovereignty.
So Sinn Fein have settled for British Rule then?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 29, 2013, 09:42:01 AM
Disappointed in Alex Maskey who didn't do Sinn Fein any favours trying to sell a UI to unionists. Mind you Arlene was equally as clueless. Didn't know if she was coming or going but that the DUP all over.
I have to agree with you there. If this poll is about starting a debate then fine. But as things stand there isn't a snowballs chance in hell of a majority of nationalists let alone an overall majority voting for a united Ireland. Before that happens we need to know what this unified state is going to look like. Listen to Conal McDevitt of the SDLP, he keeps reiterating that the debate needs to take place among nationalist first and formost.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that you are Conal McDevitt.
And I know who you are! #keep her lit!

I would be disappointed if you were right.

Fear not, though I am from the same part of the world. Where the sun always shines!
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 29, 2013, 09:48:03 AM
Would they be implementing Tory cuts as part of a British administration then?

Well last I checked the Good Friday Agreement was being implemented alright, and I'm unaware of Ireland having been re-united overnight. As I mentioned earlier, the administration you speak of has no fiscal sovereignty.
So Sinn Fein have settled for British Rule then?
I remember people discussing this very question alright. Back in 1998.

Given that you are someone who believes Marian Price is not being interned but rather is being "illegally detained"  (???), and that you seem to believe these are somehow different, then I'll just let you believe whatever your logic tells you, if it makes you happy.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on January 29, 2013, 09:57:40 AM
Of course Sinn Féin represent two different things on each side of the border - ever since they decided to stand for elections and take their seats in both jurisdictions, they have had to formulate different strategies for each state because of the peculiar situation in which the north and south found themselves in. The fact that modern provisional Sinn Féin was founded in Belfast, and that the Official IRA from whom they split controlled major state media and broadcast institutions in the 1970's South had a large impact on their public and political image.

That is outwith the fact that they already had a solid nationalist base in the north as opposed to a more grass-roots, underground base in the south. The reality is that if you aren't actively campaigning for election and representation in a state, and instead are repudiating the means of representation, then unless there is a significant social factor to foster solidarity with your voters (Catholics being second class citizens in the north) you will find it difficult to retain interest.

Despite these differences, they still retain a more coherent political strategy in terms of the north than any other party you'd care to name in the south.

As a North of Ireland party I'd expect SF to have some sort of policy towards the North. They are as out of place in the politics of The Republic as the British Conservative Party or French Gaulists.
At first i thought you were a WUM. But your partionist insulting rubbish does not enhance debate. I would be as critical of SF as anyone but to say that they are out of place in southern politics is just pure nonsense, they have evry right as Irish people to stand for election and promote thier policies. You can challenge their politics and policies but you can't deny them thier right to seek support for them at the ballot box. Yes Nally and othe Sinn Fein people can be hypocritical, but show me a politician who isn't.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on January 29, 2013, 10:02:28 AM
'Dig up'? You are having a laugh. This is SF hypocrisy in a nutshell. You attack me for misspelling his name. SF however will not condemn those who shot him dead. Which do you think is more damaging? There are many others that need to be dug up as well but SF would rather we forgot about them.
I'm not having a laugh at all. Just making a nod to the fact that when SF are spoken about in the 26 counties, at least one of the (seemingly) only two victims of the troubles will inevitably be dug up, and nine times out of ten, one of them will not even have their name spelt correctly by those that claim to care so much. As for it not being condemned, to quote Martin McGuinness “I unreservedly condemned the murder of Jerry McCabe."

There are many others that need to be dug up as well but SF would rather we forgot about them.
Hypocritical, you say? The only time anyone in the south wants to dig up a few victims, is where SF are concerned. Could many of the people who gleefully dig up the usual two names, also name one person killed in the Dublin/Monaghan bombs? Nah. They're not interested enough. I'm sure when Queen Lizzy came over you weren't talking then about the need for victims names to be dug up. 'The past is the past' you'd have been saying.

Brits killing Irish is hideous, but still not as bad as people pretending to fight for Ireland killing Irish people.
Nally hasn't a monoply on Hypocrisy. Unionists conveniently forget that they used violence and murder to subvert the wishes of the majority in Ireland and not just in 1920 either they are still doing it. Non of the political paries in the South can claim to have clean hands, the only difference is that SF have left their campaign behind more recently than the other parties, that said it was 20 years ago.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on January 29, 2013, 10:03:53 AM
Would they be implementing Tory cuts as part of a British administration then?

Well last I checked the Good Friday Agreement was being implemented alright, and I'm unaware of Ireland having been re-united overnight. As I mentioned earlier, the administration you speak of has no fiscal sovereignty.
So Sinn Fein have settled for British Rule then?
I remember people discussing this very question alright. Back in 1998.

Given that you are someone who believes Marian Price is not being interned but rather is being "illegally detained"  (???), and that you seem to believe these are somehow different, then I'll just let you believe whatever your logic tells you, if it makes you happy.
I didn't say she was illegally detained, what I did say was that if she is then the courts are the place to find a remedy.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 29, 2013, 10:09:03 AM
Would they be implementing Tory cuts as part of a British administration then?

Well last I checked the Good Friday Agreement was being implemented alright, and I'm unaware of Ireland having been re-united overnight. As I mentioned earlier, the administration you speak of has no fiscal sovereignty.
So Sinn Fein have settled for British Rule then?
I remember people discussing this very question alright. Back in 1998.

Given that you are someone who believes Marian Price is not being interned but rather is being "illegally detained"  (???), and that you seem to believe these are somehow different, then I'll just let you believe whatever your logic tells you, if it makes you happy.
I didn't say she was illegally detained, what I did say was that if she is then the courts are the place to find a remedy.

Really?
Guys, call it what you like it may be , and I say may be an illegal detention but internment it ain't.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on January 29, 2013, 11:45:07 AM
Would they be implementing Tory cuts as part of a British administration then?

Well last I checked the Good Friday Agreement was being implemented alright, and I'm unaware of Ireland having been re-united overnight. As I mentioned earlier, the administration you speak of has no fiscal sovereignty.
So Sinn Fein have settled for British Rule then?
I remember people discussing this very question alright. Back in 1998.

Given that you are someone who believes Marian Price is not being interned but rather is being "illegally detained"  (???), and that you seem to believe these are somehow different, then I'll just let you believe whatever your logic tells you, if it makes you happy.
I didn't say she was illegally detained, what I did say was that if she is then the courts are the place to find a remedy.

Really?
Guys, call it what you like it may be , and I say may be an illegal detention but internment it ain't.
I said may, which does not in any way imply that I think it is as I said for the courts to decide.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: LeoMc on January 29, 2013, 11:50:20 AM
Disappointed in Alex Maskey who didn't do Sinn Fein any favours trying to sell a UI to unionists. Mind you Arlene was equally as clueless. Didn't know if she was coming or going but that the DUP all over.
I have to agree with you there. If this poll is about starting a debate then fine. But as things stand there isn't a snowballs chance in hell of a majority of nationalists let alone an overall majority voting for a united Ireland. Before that happens we need to know what this unified state is going to look like. Listen to Conal McDevitt of the SDLP, he keeps reiterating that the debate needs to take place among nationalist first and formost.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that you are Conal McDevitt.
And I know who you are! #keep her lit!

I would be disappointed if you were right.

Fear not, though I am from the same part of the world. Where the sun always shines!

I had heard that there was more than one Republican in Carmen alright.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 29, 2013, 11:53:46 AM
Would they be implementing Tory cuts as part of a British administration then?

Well last I checked the Good Friday Agreement was being implemented alright, and I'm unaware of Ireland having been re-united overnight. As I mentioned earlier, the administration you speak of has no fiscal sovereignty.
So Sinn Fein have settled for British Rule then?
I remember people discussing this very question alright. Back in 1998.

Given that you are someone who believes Marian Price is not being interned but rather is being "illegally detained"  (???), and that you seem to believe these are somehow different, then I'll just let you believe whatever your logic tells you, if it makes you happy.
I didn't say she was illegally detained, what I did say was that if she is then the courts are the place to find a remedy.

Really?
Guys, call it what you like it may be , and I say may be an illegal detention but internment it ain't.
I said may, which does not in any way imply that I think it is as I said for the courts to decide.

So you decided it may be an illegal detention because that's what you don't think it is?! Here, stop digging!! (Would still love to know what you see the difference is between the two btw!)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on January 29, 2013, 11:58:37 AM
Would they be implementing Tory cuts as part of a British administration then?

Well last I checked the Good Friday Agreement was being implemented alright, and I'm unaware of Ireland having been re-united overnight. As I mentioned earlier, the administration you speak of has no fiscal sovereignty.
So Sinn Fein have settled for British Rule then?
I remember people discussing this very question alright. Back in 1998.

Given that you are someone who believes Marian Price is not being interned but rather is being "illegally detained"  (???), and that you seem to believe these are somehow different, then I'll just let you believe whatever your logic tells you, if it makes you happy.
I didn't say she was illegally detained, what I did say was that if she is then the courts are the place to find a remedy.

Really?
Guys, call it what you like it may be , and I say may be an illegal detention but internment it ain't.
I said may, which does not in any way imply that I think it is as I said for the courts to decide.

So you decided it may be an illegal detention because that's what you don't think it is?! Here, stop digging!! (Would still love to know what you see the difference is between the two btw!)
I've explained my views on Price, you don't agree thats your right. To be honest I'm not really bothered about her.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 29, 2013, 12:02:34 PM
Would they be implementing Tory cuts as part of a British administration then?

Well last I checked the Good Friday Agreement was being implemented alright, and I'm unaware of Ireland having been re-united overnight. As I mentioned earlier, the administration you speak of has no fiscal sovereignty.
So Sinn Fein have settled for British Rule then?
I remember people discussing this very question alright. Back in 1998.

Given that you are someone who believes Marian Price is not being interned but rather is being "illegally detained"  (???), and that you seem to believe these are somehow different, then I'll just let you believe whatever your logic tells you, if it makes you happy.
I didn't say she was illegally detained, what I did say was that if she is then the courts are the place to find a remedy.

Really?
Guys, call it what you like it may be , and I say may be an illegal detention but internment it ain't.
I said may, which does not in any way imply that I think it is as I said for the courts to decide.

So you decided it may be an illegal detention because that's what you don't think it is?! Here, stop digging!! (Would still love to know what you see the difference is between the two btw!)
I've explained my views on Price, you don't agree thats your right. To be honest I'm not really bothered about her.
Good man, set down the shovel!! And maybe some day you'll work out what the difference is between internment and illegal detention is!
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on January 29, 2013, 12:10:04 PM
Would they be implementing Tory cuts as part of a British administration then?

Well last I checked the Good Friday Agreement was being implemented alright, and I'm unaware of Ireland having been re-united overnight. As I mentioned earlier, the administration you speak of has no fiscal sovereignty.
So Sinn Fein have settled for British Rule then?
I remember people discussing this very question alright. Back in 1998.

Given that you are someone who believes Marian Price is not being interned but rather is being "illegally detained"  (???), and that you seem to believe these are somehow different, then I'll just let you believe whatever your logic tells you, if it makes you happy.
I didn't say she was illegally detained, what I did say was that if she is then the courts are the place to find a remedy.

Really?
Guys, call it what you like it may be , and I say may be an illegal detention but internment it ain't.
I said may, which does not in any way imply that I think it is as I said for the courts to decide.

So you decided it may be an illegal detention because that's what you don't think it is?! Here, stop digging!! (Would still love to know what you see the difference is between the two btw!)
I've explained my views on Price, you don't agree thats your right. To be honest I'm not really bothered about her.
Good man, set down the shovel!! And maybe some day you'll work out what the difference is between internment and illegal detention is!
yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on January 29, 2013, 12:11:31 PM
Would they be implementing Tory cuts as part of a British administration then?

Well last I checked the Good Friday Agreement was being implemented alright, and I'm unaware of Ireland having been re-united overnight. As I mentioned earlier, the administration you speak of has no fiscal sovereignty.
So Sinn Fein have settled for British Rule then?
I remember people discussing this very question alright. Back in 1998.

Given that you are someone who believes Marian Price is not being interned but rather is being "illegally detained"  (???), and that you seem to believe these are somehow different, then I'll just let you believe whatever your logic tells you, if it makes you happy.
I didn't say she was illegally detained, what I did say was that if she is then the courts are the place to find a remedy.

Really?
Guys, call it what you like it may be , and I say may be an illegal detention but internment it ain't.
I said may, which does not in any way imply that I think it is as I said for the courts to decide.

So you decided it may be an illegal detention because that's what you don't think it is?! Here, stop digging!! (Would still love to know what you see the difference is between the two btw!)
I've explained my views on Price, you don't agree thats your right. To be honest I'm not really bothered about her.
Good man, set down the shovel!! And maybe some day you'll work out what the difference is between internment and illegal detention is!
yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
Agreed! Tired waiting on an answer!
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Saffrongael on January 30, 2013, 09:35:18 PM
Denis Donaldson: Ombudsman launches new investigation

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21260672




A new investigation has been launched into allegations that police officers may have contributed to the death of republican informer Denis Donaldson.

The Police Ombudsman has overturned a previous decision by his office to close the investigation and declare there was no misconduct by officers.

The senior Sinn Fein official was shot dead in Donegal in April 2006.

He had gone into hiding after police told him the media were preparing to expose his secret life as an informer.

The Real IRA said it was responsible but his family alleged that police officers may have exposed him as an agent and contributed to his death.

Three years ago the Police Ombudsman at the time, Al Hutchinson, said there had been no police misconduct and declared the case closed.

But a BBC Spotlight investigation in October 2011 revealed investigators had not interviewed a special branch officer who Mr Donaldson's family believe may hold vital information about what happened.

For 20 years, senior Sinn Fein member Denis Donaldson led a secret life as an informer for MI5, the RUC and PSNI.

Then in April 2006, he was told by police that the media were about to expose his role as agent and he fled to a remote cottage the family owned in Donegal.

After his murder, Denis Donaldson's family alleged that police officers who knew about his secret role may have exposed him as an agent and contributed to his death.

They were also unaware he had been writing a journal which his family believe could contain clues about who killed him and why.

The current ombudsman, Michael Maguire, confirmed on Wednesday that he has launched a new investigation.

It is understood investigators will seek access to the journal, which was removed by Garda officers investigating the killing, and to interview the special branch officer.

Mr Donaldson was shot at a remote cottage in Glenties in 2006.

He moved out of his Belfast home a few months before his death, and had been living in the run-down cottage which had neither electricity nor running water.

Four months earlier, he had been expelled from Sinn Fein after admitting being a paid British spy for 20 years
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on January 30, 2013, 11:22:50 PM
the murder of a garda officer has yet again shown why its time for gerry to step down as party leader. even this tragic loss of life has been turned into a stick to beat sinn fein with. no matter how firm gerrys footing when attacks this pathetic government and their corruption it turns into farce as 'fianna gael' hark back to gerrys role in the conflict. no matter what the kenny klan do gerry is simply unable to highlight their uselessness. adams needs to stand down now. hes done a great job so far but sinn fein need a new face. with lads like peadar tobin and pierse doherty leading, sinn fein will attract more votes and kenny wont be able to hide from them.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on January 30, 2013, 11:26:56 PM
the murder of a garda officer has yet again shown why its time for gerry to step down as party leader. even this tragic loss of life has been turned into a stick to beat sinn fein with. no matter how firm gerrys footing when attacks this pathetic government and their corruption it turns into farce as 'fianna gael' hark back to gerrys role in the conflict. no matter what the kenny klan do gerry is simply unable to highlight their uselessness. adams needs to stand down now. hes done a great job so far but sinn fein need a new face. with lads like peadar tobin and pierse doherty leading, sinn fein will attract more votes and kenny wont be able to hide from them.

Martin Ferris?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on January 30, 2013, 11:37:03 PM
the murder of a Garda officer has yet again shown why its time for Gerry to step down as party leader. even this tragic loss of life has been turned into a stick to beat sinn fein with. no matter how firm gerrys footing when attacks this pathetic government and their corruption it turns into farce as 'fianna gael' hark back to gerrys role in the conflict. no matter what the kenny klan do gerry is simply unable to highlight their uselessness. adams needs to stand down now. hes done a great job so far but sinn fein need a new face. with lads like peadar tobin and pierse doherty leading, sinn fein will attract more votes and kenny wont be able to hide from them.

Martin Ferris?
he can go fishing with ger. his daughter was doing quite well havent heard alot about her lately but being a family member isn't a prerequisite for taking over in sinn fein
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on January 30, 2013, 11:58:07 PM
the murder of a Garda officer has yet again shown why its time for Gerry to step down as party leader. even this tragic loss of life has been turned into a stick to beat sinn fein with. no matter how firm gerrys footing when attacks this pathetic government and their corruption it turns into farce as 'fianna gael' hark back to gerrys role in the conflict. no matter what the kenny klan do gerry is simply unable to highlight their uselessness. adams needs to stand down now. hes done a great job so far but sinn fein need a new face. with lads like peadar tobin and pierse doherty leading, sinn fein will attract more votes and kenny wont be able to hide from them.

Martin Ferris?
he can go fishing with ger. his daughter was doing quite well havent heard alot about her lately but being a family member isn't a prerequisite for taking over in sinn fein

Is paramilitary service a prerequisite? Jobs for the Bhoys  ;)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on January 31, 2013, 08:07:12 AM
the murder of a Garda officer has yet again shown why its time for Gerry to step down as party leader. even this tragic loss of life has been turned into a stick to beat sinn fein with. no matter how firm gerrys footing when attacks this pathetic government and their corruption it turns into farce as 'fianna gael' hark back to gerrys role in the conflict. no matter what the kenny klan do gerry is simply unable to highlight their uselessness. adams needs to stand down now. hes done a great job so far but sinn fein need a new face. with lads like peadar tobin and pierse doherty leading, sinn fein will attract more votes and kenny wont be able to hide from them.

Martin Ferris?
he can go fishing with ger. his daughter was doing quite well havent heard alot about her lately but being a family member isn't a prerequisite for taking over in sinn fein
Is that the same daughter who refused to condemn the murder of Garda McCabe on the Late Late Show?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on January 31, 2013, 02:20:41 PM
Martin McGuiness and Gerry Kelly are accepted despite their past because they just front up and say yes I did that, it was a different time and things have changed, Adams continues to peddle the myth that he was never in the IRA hence he undermines his own credibility. As Peter Robinson has said of McGuinness just because he had a past doesn't mean he can't have a future.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Rossfan on January 31, 2013, 02:32:36 PM
And the same could be said of Robinson .... until the last two months and his reverting to type over the Belfast Council decision on the British Flag .
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on January 31, 2013, 05:33:50 PM
Martin McGuiness and Gerry Kelly are accepted despite their past because they just front up and say yes I did that, it was a different time and things have changed, Adams continues to peddle the myth that he was never in the IRA hence he undermines his own credibility. As Peter Robinson has said of McGuinness just because he had a past doesn't mean he can't have a future.

The importance of this can't be underestimated.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on January 31, 2013, 09:03:37 PM
the murder of a Garda officer has yet again shown why its time for Gerry to step down as party leader. even this tragic loss of life has been turned into a stick to beat sinn fein with. no matter how firm gerrys footing when attacks this pathetic government and their corruption it turns into farce as 'fianna gael' hark back to gerrys role in the conflict. no matter what the kenny klan do gerry is simply unable to highlight their uselessness. adams needs to stand down now. hes done a great job so far but sinn fein need a new face. with lads like peadar tobin and pierse doherty leading, sinn fein will attract more votes and kenny wont be able to hide from them.

Martin Ferris?
he can go fishing with ger. his daughter was doing quite well havent heard alot about her lately but being a family member isn't a prerequisite for taking over in sinn fein
Is that the same daughter who refused to condemn the murder of Garda McCabe on the Late Late Show?
what difference would it have made, shes not a leading shinner her condemnation wouldnt mean much either way.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on January 31, 2013, 09:19:03 PM
the murder of a Garda officer has yet again shown why its time for Gerry to step down as party leader. even this tragic loss of life has been turned into a stick to beat sinn fein with. no matter how firm gerrys footing when attacks this pathetic government and their corruption it turns into farce as 'fianna gael' hark back to gerrys role in the conflict. no matter what the kenny klan do gerry is simply unable to highlight their uselessness. adams needs to stand down now. hes done a great job so far but sinn fein need a new face. with lads like peadar tobin and pierse doherty leading, sinn fein will attract more votes and kenny wont be able to hide from them.

Martin Ferris?
he can go fishing with ger. his daughter was doing quite well havent heard alot about her lately but being a family member isn't a prerequisite for taking over in sinn fein
Is that the same daughter who refused to condemn the murder of Garda McCabe on the Late Late Show?
what difference would it have made, shes not a leading shinner her condemnation wouldnt mean much either way.
Her condemnation might not have been significant, but her refusal to do so spoke volumes.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on January 31, 2013, 09:25:46 PM
the murder of a Garda officer has yet again shown why its time for Gerry to step down as party leader. even this tragic loss of life has been turned into a stick to beat sinn fein with. no matter how firm gerrys footing when attacks this pathetic government and their corruption it turns into farce as 'fianna gael' hark back to gerrys role in the conflict. no matter what the kenny klan do gerry is simply unable to highlight their uselessness. adams needs to stand down now. hes done a great job so far but sinn fein need a new face. with lads like peadar tobin and pierse doherty leading, sinn fein will attract more votes and kenny wont be able to hide from them.

Martin Ferris?
he can go fishing with ger. his daughter was doing quite well havent heard alot about her lately but being a family member isn't a prerequisite for taking over in sinn fein
Is that the same daughter who refused to condemn the murder of Garda McCabe on the Late Late Show?
what difference would it have made, shes not a leading shinner her condemnation wouldnt mean much either way.
Her condemnation might not have been significant, but her refusal to do so spoke volumes.
i conmdem it for her since shes not here.  i'm thinking peadar tobin as leader in the dail with peirse as deputy
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Rossfan on February 01, 2013, 10:36:31 AM
Isn't Peadar the chap who ye'll have to expel for not supporting ye're "trendy leftie smoked salmon socialist " position on Abortion?  ;D
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 01, 2013, 10:05:16 PM
the murder of a Garda officer has yet again shown why its time for Gerry to step down as party leader. even this tragic loss of life has been turned into a stick to beat sinn fein with. no matter how firm gerrys footing when attacks this pathetic government and their corruption it turns into farce as 'fianna gael' hark back to gerrys role in the conflict. no matter what the kenny klan do gerry is simply unable to highlight their uselessness. adams needs to stand down now. hes done a great job so far but sinn fein need a new face. with lads like peadar tobin and pierse doherty leading, sinn fein will attract more votes and kenny wont be able to hide from them.

Martin Ferris?
he can go fishing with ger. his daughter was doing quite well havent heard alot about her lately but being a family member isn't a prerequisite for taking over in sinn fein
Is that the same daughter who refused to condemn the murder of Garda McCabe on the Late Late Show?
what difference would it have made, shes not a leading shinner her condemnation wouldnt mean much either way.
Her condemnation might not have been significant, but her refusal to do so spoke volumes.
i conmdem it for her since shes not here.  i'm thinking peadar tobin as leader in the dail with peirse as deputy

A Tobin is always handy if you want to spin some unbelievable stories.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Farrandeelin on February 01, 2013, 10:35:15 PM
I wonder will Enda Kenny be in Castlebar on the weekend of the Sinn féin ard-fheis. He won't have any family in the Gaeltacht that weekend! :P
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: anglocelt39 on February 01, 2013, 10:38:36 PM
First things first I'd run a mile to distance myself from both extremes on this thread. The Shinner bashers often come across as an uninformed version of the worst excesses of the Sunday Independent Duckworth school of, ahem, journalism. Having got that off my chest in an," I'm not racist but" type of preface, I do have to ask the question as to whether I was the only one to feel faintly nauseous at the sight on last nights news of Mary Lou condemning the closure of rural garda stations across the country, lovely timing girl.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: All of a Sludden on February 02, 2013, 09:28:08 PM
SINN Fein's Mary Lou McDonald has been dragged into defending the IRA's killing of police officers north of the Border.

The party's deputy leader said there was a "clear distinction" between the IRA killing gardai and killing RUC officers during the Troubles.

Ms McDonald's hardline stance is significant because it could damage her reputation as the fresh face of Sinn Fein, with no historical baggage of association with the IRA.

The Dublin Central TD is also resorting to the role of an IRA apologist.

Gerry Adams's belated apology to the families of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe and other members of An Garda Siochana and Army killed by the IRA has prompted calls to extend his apology to RUC victims.

But Sinn Fein has said that killing RUC officers was "vastly different" to killing gardai. According to Ms McDonald, there is a "clear distinction".

Sinn Fein general secretary Mitchell McLaughlin rejected the calls in Northern Ireland for an apology to the families of RUC members and his position has now been backed up by Ms McDonald.

"In terms of a distinction between An Garda Siochana and the RUC – as it was – he is correct. He (Mr McLaughlin) is absolutely correct in saying that," she said.

Hardline

However, Fianna Fail has said that Sinn Fein's "hard neck is breathtaking". The party's justice spokesman Niall Collins said it was not acceptable for a political party to be taking such a stance.

He said it was despicable to see Mr Adams engage in "a brazen act of hypocrisy" in trying to "cleanse his political pedigree" by apologising for the killing of Det Garda McCabe.

"He was hijacking the expressions of sympathy for Adrian Donohoe," said Mr Collins.

Ms McDonald said she believed that every life lost in what she described as "the conflict" was a tragedy both for those who died and for their families.

She said: "I think what Mitchell (McLaughlin) is identifying is the clear distinction between the RUC, the British Army, the loyalist paramilitaries, the IRA – all of whom were combatants in a conflict up in the North over decades and decades – and then An Garda Siochana, who clearly were not. I think that's a crucial distinction.

"It's a point, I know that Gerry (Adams) and others have made in the past and I think it holds true."

Ms McDonald explained that she wasn't saying there would never be such an apology, but that this would have to be part of a wider "process of healing" with apologies on all sides.

She added: "Bear in mind nationalists were also killed – the RUC, the British State forces, the loyalist paramilitaries also inflicted harm.

"We need to find a way that we get to the point where a full apology on all sides is made and a genuine apology.

"But for that to actually happen, we need to have vast, wide-ranging conversations and a process to mediate all this."


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/video-murdering-gardai-is-different-from-killing-ruc-officers-says-mary-lou-3371975.html
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Ulick on February 02, 2013, 10:06:45 PM
In fairness to  Mary Lou, I don't ever recall Gardaí smashing down the front door through, spitting on my mother, smashing her wedding gifts and heirlooms, pulling da down the stairs by the hair in his underwear, assaulting and interning family members nor shooting dead my school-friends. I suppose we must thank the Sino/Indo for pointing out that we have more in common than we know and our southern brothers faced a similar brutal police state on a daily basis.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Olly on February 02, 2013, 10:13:58 PM
Did anyone watch the programme on Bernadette McAliskey tonight? She says she doesn't like Stormont. There's a midget doing press-ups on RTE now.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 02, 2013, 10:24:57 PM
In fairness to  Mary Lou, I don't ever recall Gardaí smashing down the front door through, spitting on my mother, smashing her wedding gifts and heirlooms, pulling da down the stairs by the hair in his underwear, assaulting and interning family members nor shooting dead my school-friends. I suppose we must thank the Sino/Indo for pointing out that we have more in common than we know and our southern brothers faced a similar brutal police state on a daily basis.

Is that an excuse for shooting us?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: hardstation on February 02, 2013, 10:40:03 PM
Did anyone watch the programme on Bernadette McAliskey tonight? She says she doesn't like Stormont. There's a midget doing press-ups on RTE now.
That was a superb programme.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Ulick on February 02, 2013, 10:55:22 PM
Did anyone watch the programme on Bernadette McAliskey tonight? She says she doesn't like Stormont. There's a midget doing press-ups on RTE now.

Flipping meant to record that.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Ulick on February 02, 2013, 11:00:48 PM
In fairness to  Mary Lou, I don't ever recall Gardaí smashing down the front door through, spitting on my mother, smashing her wedding gifts and heirlooms, pulling da down the stairs by the hair in his underwear, assaulting and interning family members nor shooting dead my school-friends. I suppose we must thank the Sino/Indo for pointing out that we have more in common than we know and our southern brothers faced a similar brutal police state on a daily basis.

Is that an excuse for shooting us?

Excuse? Sure you were all obviously going through the same shit (hence the Sindo equivalence between the Garda and RUC/UDR/B Specials) - fcuk you'd be grateful we shot as many as we did.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 02, 2013, 11:03:55 PM
In fairness to  Mary Lou, I don't ever recall Gardaí smashing down the front door through, spitting on my mother, smashing her wedding gifts and heirlooms, pulling da down the stairs by the hair in his underwear, assaulting and interning family members nor shooting dead my school-friends. I suppose we must thank the Sino/Indo for pointing out that we have more in common than we know and our southern brothers faced a similar brutal police state on a daily basis.

Is that an excuse for shooting us?

Excuse? Sure you were all obviously going through the same shit (hence the Sindo equivalence between the Garda and RUC/UDR/B Specials) - fcuk you'd be grateful we shot as many as we did.

'We' were gutless balaclavad drug dealers shooting family Gaa men. What a hero you are.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Ulick on February 02, 2013, 11:28:19 PM
Satire is obviously lost on you (ya) muppet. 
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 02, 2013, 11:36:37 PM
Satire is obviously lost on you (ya) muppet.

D'ya reckon?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on February 03, 2013, 08:54:50 AM
Satire is obviously lost on you (ya) muppet.

D'ya reckon?

hes right muppet that one went right over your head
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on February 03, 2013, 11:14:00 AM
Satire is obviously lost on you (ya) muppet.

D'ya reckon?

hes right muppet that one went right over your head

Must have been a bad shot if it went over his head
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 03, 2013, 04:33:11 PM
Satire is obviously lost on you (ya) muppet.

D'ya reckon?

hes right muppet that one went right over your head

Must have been a bad shot if it went over his head

If they fired over people's heads there would be more people alive. John Morley fired a couple of warning shots into the air because he did't want to injure anyone, the scumbags turned around and shot him in the head.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on February 03, 2013, 05:26:25 PM
See that's the difference between policing a community and conducting a "war".
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on February 03, 2013, 05:35:45 PM
See that's the difference between policing a community and conducting a "war".

Correct
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Feckitt on February 03, 2013, 07:01:02 PM
You're such a w**ker muppet
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 03, 2013, 07:04:03 PM
You're such a w**ker muppet

I don't shoot my own people.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on February 03, 2013, 07:10:19 PM
You're such a w**ker muppet

I don't shoot my own people.

Your freedom was won by an organisation which did. I assume you comdemn that organisation in its entirety?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 03, 2013, 07:12:46 PM
You're such a w**ker muppet

I don't shoot my own people.

Your freedom was won by an organisation which did. I assume you comdemn that organisation in its entirety?

Yawn. More whataboutery.

I don't shot my own people.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on February 03, 2013, 07:27:08 PM
You're such a w**ker muppet

I don't shoot my own people.

Your freedom was won by an organisation which did. I assume you comdemn that organisation in its entirety?

Yawn. More whataboutery.

I don't shot my own people.

Not whataboutery at all, they're the same organisation as far as I'm concerned. You neatly avoid an answer I see. The organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 03, 2013, 07:32:07 PM
You're such a w**ker muppet

I don't shoot my own people.

Your freedom was won by an organisation which did. I assume you comdemn that organisation in its entirety?

Yawn. More whataboutery.

I don't shot my own people.

Not whataboutery at all, they're the same organisation as far as I'm concerned. You neatly avoid an answer I see. The organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

More historical whataboutery.

You are arguing in defence of people who shot decent Irish men doing their jobs, during a robbery.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on February 03, 2013, 07:36:24 PM
You're such a w**ker muppet

I don't shoot my own people.

Your freedom was won by an organisation which did. I assume you comdemn that organisation in its entirety?

Yawn. More whataboutery.

I don't shot my own people.

Not whataboutery at all, they're the same organisation as far as I'm concerned. You neatly avoid an answer I see. The organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

More historical whataboutery.

You are arguing in defence of people who shot decent Irish men doing their jobs, during a robbery.

Well this discussion started from events in Louth and you are now talking about historical events so if it's good enough for you etc...

So in the interest of discussion, for a third time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: HiMucker on February 03, 2013, 07:37:22 PM
Muppet how much could you purchase an ivory tower for in today's financial climate?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 03, 2013, 07:39:04 PM
Muppet how much could you purchase an ivory tower for in today's financial climate?

Let me get this straight, because I am against shooting my own people I live in an ivory tower?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 03, 2013, 07:46:38 PM
You're such a w**ker muppet

I don't shoot my own people.

Your freedom was won by an organisation which did. I assume you comdemn that organisation in its entirety?

Yawn. More whataboutery.

I don't shot my own people.

Not whataboutery at all, they're the same organisation as far as I'm concerned. You neatly avoid an answer I see. The organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

More historical whataboutery.

You are arguing in defence of people who shot decent Irish men doing their jobs, during a robbery.

Well this discussion started from events in Louth and you are now talking about historical events so if it's good enough for you etc...

Soin the interest of discussion, for a third time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

Discussion?

You don't do discussion. You do predictable rhetoric hiding behind a romantic vision of glorious Republicanism and present it as some unquestionable truth.

These people shot innocent Irish people. In my view they are as bad as the Brits in their thirst for blood.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: HiMucker on February 03, 2013, 07:48:17 PM
No
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on February 03, 2013, 07:55:13 PM
You're such a w**ker muppet

I don't shoot my own people.

Your freedom was won by an organisation which did. I assume you comdemn that organisation in its entirety?

Yawn. More whataboutery.

I don't shot my own people.

Not whataboutery at all, they're the same organisation as far as I'm concerned. You neatly avoid an answer I see. The organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

More historical whataboutery.

You are arguing in defence of people who shot decent Irish men doing their jobs, during a robbery.

Well this discussion started from events in Louth and you are now talking about historical events so if it's good enough for you etc...

Soin the interest of discussion, for a third time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

Discussion?

You don't do discussion. You do predictable rhetoric hiding behind a romantic vision of glorious Republicanism and present it as some unquestionable truth.

These people shot innocent Irish people. In my view they are as bad as the Brits in their thirst for blood.

I'm not indulging in any romanticism. Your inability to condemn the Old IRA for doing things you claim to loath leads me to believe that it's your good self who is romanticising republican history. I'm just asking a simple question (for the fourth time now)....the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on February 03, 2013, 08:15:19 PM
It's like having a dialogue with a budgie.

Persistence should not be confused with pertinence.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Tubberman on February 03, 2013, 08:16:59 PM
You're such a w**ker muppet

I don't shoot my own people.

Your freedom was won by an organisation which did. I assume you comdemn that organisation in its entirety?

Yawn. More whataboutery.

I don't shot my own people.

Not whataboutery at all, they're the same organisation as far as I'm concerned. You neatly avoid an answer I see. The organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

More historical whataboutery.

You are arguing in defence of people who shot decent Irish men doing their jobs, during a robbery.

Well this discussion started from events in Louth and you are now talking about historical events so if it's good enough for you etc...

Soin the interest of discussion, for a third time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

Discussion?

You don't do discussion. You do predictable rhetoric hiding behind a romantic vision of glorious Republicanism and present it as some unquestionable truth.

These people shot innocent Irish people. In my view they are as bad as the Brits in their thirst for blood.

I'm not indulging in any romanticism. Your inability to condemn the Old IRA for doing things you claim to loath leads me to believe that it's your good self who is romanticising republican history. I'm just asking a simple question (for the fourth time now)....the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

What cause does robbing banks and credit unions advance?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on February 03, 2013, 08:26:14 PM
You're such a w**ker muppet

I don't shoot my own people.

Your freedom was won by an organisation which did. I assume you comdemn that organisation in its entirety?

Yawn. More whataboutery.

I don't shot my own people.

Not whataboutery at all, they're the same organisation as far as I'm concerned. You neatly avoid an answer I see. The organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

More historical whataboutery.

You are arguing in defence of people who shot decent Irish men doing their jobs, during a robbery.

Well this discussion started from events in Louth and you are now talking about historical events so if it's good enough for you etc...

Soin the interest of discussion, for a third time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

Discussion?

You don't do discussion. You do predictable rhetoric hiding behind a romantic vision of glorious Republicanism and present it as some unquestionable truth.

These people shot innocent Irish people. In my view they are as bad as the Brits in their thirst for blood.

I'm not indulging in any romanticism. Your inability to condemn the Old IRA for doing things you claim to loath leads me to believe that it's your good self who is romanticising republican history. I'm just asking a simple question (for the fourth time now)....the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

What cause does robbing banks and credit unions advance?

As well as shooting many of it's own people, the organistion which won your freedom also robbed many banks and post offices.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 03, 2013, 08:26:37 PM
Satire is obviously lost on you (ya) muppet.

D'ya reckon?

hes right muppet that one went right over your head

In fairness, he was doing press-ups on RTE at the time.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 03, 2013, 08:28:04 PM
It's like having a dialogue with a budgie.

Persistence should not be confused with pertinence.

 ;D
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 03, 2013, 08:36:40 PM
I am not interested in your clutching of 90 year old straws.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people, you seem to disagree with that.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on February 03, 2013, 08:47:01 PM
I am not interested in your clutching of 90 year old straws.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people, you seem to disagree with that.
You won't grasp 90 year old straws but you'll happily grab 20/30 year old ones? How unsurprisingly convenient!! Out of curiosity, and for a fifth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 03, 2013, 08:54:55 PM
I am not interested in your clutching of 90 year old straws.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people, you seem to disagree with that.
You won't grasp 90 year old straws but you'll happily grab 20/30 year old ones? How unsurprisingly convenient!! Out of curiosity, and for a fifth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people. It isn't very difficult really.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on February 03, 2013, 08:57:41 PM
I am not interested in your clutching of 90 year old straws.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people, you seem to disagree with that.
You won't grasp 90 year old straws but you'll happily grab 20/30 year old ones? How unsurprisingly convenient!! Out of curiosity, and for a fifth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people. It isn't very difficult really.

Answering my question shouldn't be too hard either. For a sixth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 03, 2013, 09:01:22 PM
I am not interested in your clutching of 90 year old straws.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people, you seem to disagree with that.
You won't grasp 90 year old straws but you'll happily grab 20/30 year old ones? How unsurprisingly convenient!! Out of curiosity, and for a fifth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people. It isn't very difficult really.

Answering my question shouldn't be too hard either. For a sixth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

Many organisations won my freedom.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on February 03, 2013, 09:04:52 PM
I am not interested in your clutching of 90 year old straws.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people, you seem to disagree with that.
You won't grasp 90 year old straws but you'll happily grab 20/30 year old ones? How unsurprisingly convenient!! Out of curiosity, and for a fifth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people. It isn't very difficult really.

Answering my question shouldn't be too hard either. For a sixth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

Many organisations won my freedom.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people.

And do you condemn in their entirety those organisations, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 03, 2013, 09:06:41 PM
I am not interested in your clutching of 90 year old straws.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people, you seem to disagree with that.
You won't grasp 90 year old straws but you'll happily grab 20/30 year old ones? How unsurprisingly convenient!! Out of curiosity, and for a fifth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people. It isn't very difficult really.

Answering my question shouldn't be too hard either. For a sixth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

Many organisations won my freedom.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people.

And do you condemn in their entirety those organisations, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

You appear to be some sort of whataboutery champion. That must be nice for you.

Me, I am against the shooting of my fellow Irishmen.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on February 03, 2013, 09:27:31 PM
I am not interested in your clutching of 90 year old straws.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people, you seem to disagree with that.
You won't grasp 90 year old straws but you'll happily grab 20/30 year old ones? How unsurprisingly convenient!! Out of curiosity, and for a fifth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people. It isn't very difficult really.

Answering my question shouldn't be too hard either. For a sixth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

Many organisations won my freedom.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people.

And do you condemn in their entirety those organisations, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

You appear to be some sort of whataboutery champion. That must be nice for you.

Me, I am against the shooting of my fellow Irishmen.

Squirming under the weight of your own hypocrisy!! We were talking about last weeks evebts in Louth when you decided to harp back 20/30 years. Whataboutery that's called. You dodging if the question is beyond comical. Making your hypocrasy as plain as day for all to see!

For a seventh time, do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 03, 2013, 09:31:36 PM
I am not interested in your clutching of 90 year old straws.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people, you seem to disagree with that.
You won't grasp 90 year old straws but you'll happily grab 20/30 year old ones? How unsurprisingly convenient!! Out of curiosity, and for a fifth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people. It isn't very difficult really.

Answering my question shouldn't be too hard either. For a sixth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

Many organisations won my freedom.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people.

And do you condemn in their entirety those organisations, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

You appear to be some sort of whataboutery champion. That must be nice for you.

Me, I am against the shooting of my fellow Irishmen.

Squirming under the weight of your own hypocrisy!! We were talking about last weeks evebts in Louth when you decided to harp back 20/30 years. Whataboutery that's called. You dodging if the question is beyond comical. Making your hypocrasy as plain as day for all to see!

For a seventh time, do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

I am against the shooting of my fellow Irishmen.

It is amazing how uncomfortable that statement makes you. You can't live with it at all. You aren't remotely interested in Irish freedom as you can't even let me make that statement without ramming some twisted ideology down my throat.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: trueblue1234 on February 03, 2013, 09:32:51 PM
Your not going to get an answer Nally.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on February 03, 2013, 09:40:00 PM
I am not interested in your clutching of 90 year old straws.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people, you seem to disagree with that.
You won't grasp 90 year old straws but you'll happily grab 20/30 year old ones? How unsurprisingly convenient!! Out of curiosity, and for a fifth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people. It isn't very difficult really.

Answering my question shouldn't be too hard either. For a sixth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

Many organisations won my freedom.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people.

And do you condemn in their entirety those organisations, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

You appear to be some sort of whataboutery champion. That must be nice for you.

Me, I am against the shooting of my fellow Irishmen.

Squirming under the weight of your own hypocrisy!! We were talking about last weeks evebts in Louth when you decided to harp back 20/30 years. Whataboutery that's called. You dodging if the question is beyond comical. Making your hypocrasy as plain as day for all to see!

For a seventh time, do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

I am against the shooting of my fellow Irishmen.

It is amazing how uncomfortable that statement makes you. You can't live with it at all. You aren't remotely interested in Irish freedom as you can't even let me make that statement without ramming some twisted ideology down my throat.

I haven't mentioned any opinions or ideologies of mine here, you'll find i've just repeatedly asked you a fairly simple question. I'll try an eighth time... do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 03, 2013, 09:41:11 PM
I am not interested in your clutching of 90 year old straws.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people, you seem to disagree with that.
You won't grasp 90 year old straws but you'll happily grab 20/30 year old ones? How unsurprisingly convenient!! Out of curiosity, and for a fifth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people. It isn't very difficult really.

Answering my question shouldn't be too hard either. For a sixth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

Many organisations won my freedom.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people.

And do you condemn in their entirety those organisations, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

You appear to be some sort of whataboutery champion. That must be nice for you.

Me, I am against the shooting of my fellow Irishmen.

Squirming under the weight of your own hypocrisy!! We were talking about last weeks evebts in Louth when you decided to harp back 20/30 years. Whataboutery that's called. You dodging if the question is beyond comical. Making your hypocrasy as plain as day for all to see!

For a seventh time, do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

I am against the shooting of my fellow Irishmen.

It is amazing how uncomfortable that statement makes you. You can't live with it at all. You aren't remotely interested in Irish freedom as you can't even let me make that statement without ramming some twisted ideology down my throat.

I haven't mentioned any opinions or ideologies of mine here, you'll find i've just repeatedly asked you a fairly simple question. I'll try an eighth time... do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

Whataboutery.

I am against the shooting of my fellow Irishmen.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on February 03, 2013, 09:42:33 PM
Your not going to get an answer Nally.

Shocking that haha
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on February 03, 2013, 09:45:57 PM
I am not interested in your clutching of 90 year old straws.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people, you seem to disagree with that.
You won't grasp 90 year old straws but you'll happily grab 20/30 year old ones? How unsurprisingly convenient!! Out of curiosity, and for a fifth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people. It isn't very difficult really.

Answering my question shouldn't be too hard either. For a sixth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

Many organisations won my freedom.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people.

And do you condemn in their entirety those organisations, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

You appear to be some sort of whataboutery champion. That must be nice for you.

Me, I am against the shooting of my fellow Irishmen.

Squirming under the weight of your own hypocrisy!! We were talking about last weeks evebts in Louth when you decided to harp back 20/30 years. Whataboutery that's called. You dodging if the question is beyond comical. Making your hypocrasy as plain as day for all to see!

For a seventh time, do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

I am against the shooting of my fellow Irishmen.

It is amazing how uncomfortable that statement makes you. You can't live with it at all. You aren't remotely interested in Irish freedom as you can't even let me make that statement without ramming some twisted ideology down my throat.

I haven't mentioned any opinions or ideologies of mine here, you'll find i've just repeatedly asked you a fairly simple question. I'll try an eighth time... do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

Whataboutery.

I am against the shooting of my fellow Irishmen.

Again, it was yourself who brought up the topic of historic killings, so it can't be whataboutery on my part. For the ninth time, do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on February 03, 2013, 09:46:39 PM
I am not interested in your clutching of 90 year old straws.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people, you seem to disagree with that.
You won't grasp 90 year old straws but you'll happily grab 20/30 year old ones? How unsurprisingly convenient!! Out of curiosity, and for a fifth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people. It isn't very difficult really.

Answering my question shouldn't be too hard either. For a sixth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

Many organisations won my freedom.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people.

And do you condemn in their entirety those organisations, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

You appear to be some sort of whataboutery champion. That must be nice for you.

Me, I am against the shooting of my fellow Irishmen.

Squirming under the weight of your own hypocrisy!! We were talking about last weeks evebts in Louth when you decided to harp back 20/30 years. Whataboutery that's called. You dodging if the question is beyond comical. Making your hypocrasy as plain as day for all to see!

For a seventh time, do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

I am against the shooting of my fellow Irishmen.

It is amazing how uncomfortable that statement makes you. You can't live with it at all. You aren't remotely interested in Irish freedom as you can't even let me make that statement without ramming some twisted ideology down my throat.

I haven't mentioned any opinions or ideologies of mine here, you'll find i've just repeatedly asked you a fairly simple question. I'll try an eighth time... do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?
nally he cant answer. i'd like to think that when we take over that we'll show a little more tolerance toward the traitors who destroyed our country than the last "republicans" did when they got their hands on the reins.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 03, 2013, 09:50:45 PM
The subject was the shooting of Gárdaí which is topical because of the despicable shooting in Louth. It would be quite normal to compare the killing of a Gárda during a robbery with eh the killing of other Gárdaí during other robberies, unless of course you are defending this.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 03, 2013, 09:54:02 PM
I am not interested in your clutching of 90 year old straws.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people, you seem to disagree with that.
You won't grasp 90 year old straws but you'll happily grab 20/30 year old ones? How unsurprisingly convenient!! Out of curiosity, and for a fifth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people. It isn't very difficult really.

Answering my question shouldn't be too hard either. For a sixth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

Many organisations won my freedom.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people.

And do you condemn in their entirety those organisations, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

You appear to be some sort of whataboutery champion. That must be nice for you.

Me, I am against the shooting of my fellow Irishmen.

Squirming under the weight of your own hypocrisy!! We were talking about last weeks evebts in Louth when you decided to harp back 20/30 years. Whataboutery that's called. You dodging if the question is beyond comical. Making your hypocrasy as plain as day for all to see!

For a seventh time, do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

I am against the shooting of my fellow Irishmen.

It is amazing how uncomfortable that statement makes you. You can't live with it at all. You aren't remotely interested in Irish freedom as you can't even let me make that statement without ramming some twisted ideology down my throat.

I haven't mentioned any opinions or ideologies of mine here, you'll find i've just repeatedly asked you a fairly simple question. I'll try an eighth time... do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?
nally he cant answer. i'd like to think that when we take over that we'll show a little more tolerance toward the traitors who destroyed our country than the last "republicans" did when they got their hands on the reins.

You won't be taking anything over in our 26 counties. Take your dreams of tinpot dictatorship up to Stormont.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on February 03, 2013, 09:57:33 PM
The subject was the shooting of Gárdaí which is topical because of the despicable shooting in Louth. It would be quite normal to compare the killing of a Gárda during a robbery with eh the killing of other Gárdaí during other robberies, unless of course you are defending this.

Well if you're happy to go back 20/30 years to make moral judgements about people who shot their own people then no reason you can't go back 90. Otherwise you make yourself look like a hypocrite who conveniently romanticises armed campaings which won your own freedom. So for a tenth time, do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 03, 2013, 09:58:40 PM
nally he cant answer. i'd like to think that when we take over that we'll show a little more tolerance toward the traitors who destroyed our country than the last "republicans" did when they got their hands on the reins.

Republicans think that the ONLY reason the Brits left was because of guns. It wasn't, far from it. If any country can cope with its citizens coming home in body bags it is Britain, even to this day.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 03, 2013, 10:00:16 PM
The subject was the shooting of Gárdaí which is topical because of the despicable shooting in Louth. It would be quite normal to compare the killing of a Gárda during a robbery with eh the killing of other Gárdaí during other robberies, unless of course you are defending this.

Well if you're happy to go back 20/30 years to make moral judgements about people who shot their own people then no reason you can't go back 90. Otherwise you make yourself look like a hypocrite who conveniently romanticises armed campaings which won your own freedom. So for a tenth time, do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

I have answered your question every time. You are too blind to see it.

I am against the killing of my fellow Irishmen.

No ifs, buts or whataboutery. The answer is right there.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on February 03, 2013, 10:01:15 PM
The subject was the shooting of Gárdaí which is topical because of the despicable shooting in Louth. It would be quite normal to compare the killing of a Gárda during a robbery with eh the killing of other Gárdaí during other robberies, unless of course you are defending this.

Well if you're happy to go back 20/30 years to make moral judgements about people who shot their own people then no reason you can't go back 90. Otherwise you make yourself look like a hypocrite who conveniently romanticises armed campaings which won your own freedom. So for a tenth time, do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

I have answered your question every time. You are too blind to see it.

I am against the killing of my fellow Irishmen.

No ifs, buts or whataboutery. The answer is right there.

A yes/no would suffice then... do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on February 03, 2013, 10:02:10 PM
I am not interested in your clutching of 90 year old straws.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people, you seem to disagree with that.
You won't grasp 90 year old straws but you'll happily grab 20/30 year old ones? How unsurprisingly convenient!! Out of curiosity, and for a fifth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people. It isn't very difficult really.

Answering my question shouldn't be too hard either. For a sixth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

Many organisations won my freedom.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people.

And do you condemn in their entirety those organisations, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

You appear to be some sort of whataboutery champion. That must be nice for you.

Me, I am against the shooting of my fellow Irishmen.

Squirming under the weight of your own hypocrisy!! We were talking about last weeks evebts in Louth when you decided to harp back 20/30 years. Whataboutery that's called. You dodging if the question is beyond comical. Making your hypocrasy as plain as day for all to see!

For a seventh time, do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

I am against the shooting of my fellow Irishmen.

It is amazing how uncomfortable that statement makes you. You can't live with it at all. You aren't remotely interested in Irish freedom as you can't even let me make that statement without ramming some twisted ideology down my throat.

I haven't mentioned any opinions or ideologies of mine here, you'll find i've just repeatedly asked you a fairly simple question. I'll try an eighth time... do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?
nally he cant answer. i'd like to think that when we take over that we'll show a little more tolerance toward the traitors who destroyed our country than the last "republicans" did when they got their hands on the reins.

You won't be taking anything over in our 26 counties. Take your dreams of tinpot dictatorship up to Stormont.
true mayo i will not be taking over the 26 counties, the irish people will be taking over their own country from the sliveen/gombeen/traitor/lairs who hyjacked it 80 years ago
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 03, 2013, 10:03:15 PM
The subject was the shooting of Gárdaí which is topical because of the despicable shooting in Louth. It would be quite normal to compare the killing of a Gárda during a robbery with eh the killing of other Gárdaí during other robberies, unless of course you are defending this.

Well if you're happy to go back 20/30 years to make moral judgements about people who shot their own people then no reason you can't go back 90. Otherwise you make yourself look like a hypocrite who conveniently romanticises armed campaings which won your own freedom. So for a tenth time, do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

I have answered your question every time. You are too blind to see it.

I am against the killing of my fellow Irishmen.

No ifs, buts or whataboutery. The answer is right there.

A yes/no would suffice then... do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

Whataboutery.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on February 03, 2013, 10:06:21 PM
The subject was the shooting of Gárdaí which is topical because of the despicable shooting in Louth. It would be quite normal to compare the killing of a Gárda during a robbery with eh the killing of other Gárdaí during other robberies, unless of course you are defending this.

Well if you're happy to go back 20/30 years to make moral judgements about people who shot their own people then no reason you can't go back 90. Otherwise you make yourself look like a hypocrite who conveniently romanticises armed campaings which won your own freedom. So for a tenth time, do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

I have answered your question every time. You are too blind to see it.

I am against the killing of my fellow Irishmen.

No ifs, buts or whataboutery. The answer is right there.

A yes/no would suffice then... do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

Whataboutery.

Hahaaa ah come on now. It's hardly whataboutery, you said you have already answered me, so I'm just asking you to give it in a yes or no format.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 03, 2013, 10:09:46 PM
I am not interested in your clutching of 90 year old straws.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people, you seem to disagree with that.
You won't grasp 90 year old straws but you'll happily grab 20/30 year old ones? How unsurprisingly convenient!! Out of curiosity, and for a fifth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people. It isn't very difficult really.

Answering my question shouldn't be too hard either. For a sixth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

Many organisations won my freedom.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people.

And do you condemn in their entirety those organisations, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

You appear to be some sort of whataboutery champion. That must be nice for you.

Me, I am against the shooting of my fellow Irishmen.

Squirming under the weight of your own hypocrisy!! We were talking about last weeks evebts in Louth when you decided to harp back 20/30 years. Whataboutery that's called. You dodging if the question is beyond comical. Making your hypocrasy as plain as day for all to see!

For a seventh time, do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

I am against the shooting of my fellow Irishmen.

It is amazing how uncomfortable that statement makes you. You can't live with it at all. You aren't remotely interested in Irish freedom as you can't even let me make that statement without ramming some twisted ideology down my throat.

I haven't mentioned any opinions or ideologies of mine here, you'll find i've just repeatedly asked you a fairly simple question. I'll try an eighth time... do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?
nally he cant answer. i'd like to think that when we take over that we'll show a little more tolerance toward the traitors who destroyed our country than the last "republicans" did when they got their hands on the reins.

You won't be taking anything over in our 26 counties. Take your dreams of tinpot dictatorship up to Stormont.
true mayo i will not be taking over the 26 counties, the irish people will be taking over their own country from the sliveen/gombeen/traitor/lairs who hyjacked it 80 years ago

The Irish people already run our country.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on February 03, 2013, 10:11:20 PM
I am not interested in your clutching of 90 year old straws.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people, you seem to disagree with that.
You won't grasp 90 year old straws but you'll happily grab 20/30 year old ones? How unsurprisingly convenient!! Out of curiosity, and for a fifth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people. It isn't very difficult really.

Answering my question shouldn't be too hard either. For a sixth time, the organisation that won your freedom shot many of their own people, do you condemn that organisation in it's entirety?

Many organisations won my freedom.

I am against the shooting of innocent Irish people.

And do you condemn in their entirety those organisations, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

You appear to be some sort of whataboutery champion. That must be nice for you.

Me, I am against the shooting of my fellow Irishmen.

Squirming under the weight of your own hypocrisy!! We were talking about last weeks evebts in Louth when you decided to harp back 20/30 years. Whataboutery that's called. You dodging if the question is beyond comical. Making your hypocrasy as plain as day for all to see!

For a seventh time, do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?

I am against the shooting of my fellow Irishmen.

It is amazing how uncomfortable that statement makes you. You can't live with it at all. You aren't remotely interested in Irish freedom as you can't even let me make that statement without ramming some twisted ideology down my throat.

I haven't mentioned any opinions or ideologies of mine here, you'll find i've just repeatedly asked you a fairly simple question. I'll try an eighth time... do you condemn in their entirety those organisations which won your freedom, like the Old IRA, which shot many of their own people?
nally he cant answer. i'd like to think that when we take over that we'll show a little more tolerance toward the traitors who destroyed our country than the last "republicans" did when they got their hands on the reins.

You won't be taking anything over in our 26 counties. Take your dreams of tinpot dictatorship up to Stormont.
true mayo i will not be taking over the 26 counties, the irish people will be taking over their own country from the sliveen/gombeen/traitor/lairs who hyjacked it 80 years ago
Still finding democracy difficult to come to terms with lawnseed?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 03, 2013, 10:18:30 PM
Hahaaa ah come on now. It's hardly whataboutery, you said you have already answered me, so I'm just asking you to give it in a yes or no format.

This is the very definition of whataboutery. I mention other Gárdaí shot by Republicans and you introduce the old IRA the context being: what about them?

I have made an unequivocal unambiguous statement.

You are engaging in whataboutery to try to paint me as a hypocrite for the heinous crime, in your eyes, of being against the killing of my own people. We all know the argument as it has been done to death here. It assumes that the terrorists in the 1920s are untouchable heroes beyond criticism and that if they were beyond criticism then any murderer who hides behind the same name while shooting people must also be above criticism. It is as stupid as that.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on February 03, 2013, 10:23:08 PM
Hahaaa ah come on now. It's hardly whataboutery, you said you have already answered me, so I'm just asking you to give it in a yes or no format.

This is the very definition of whataboutery. I mention other Gárdaí shot by Republicans and you introduce the old IRA the context being: what about them?

I have made an unequivocal unambiguous statement.

You are engaging in whataboutery to try to paint me as a hypocrite for the heinous crime, in your eyes, of being against the killing of my own people. We all know the argument as it has been done to death here. It assumes that the terrorists in the 1920s are untouchable heroes beyond criticism and that if they were beyond criticism then any murderer who hides behind the same name while shooting people must also be above criticism. It is as stupid as that.

The PIRA had nothing to do with last weeks events but you brought them up. Whataboutery that's called.

You said you already answered my question, so why not sum it up with a yes or no answer.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on February 03, 2013, 10:26:35 PM
This is getting very boring.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 03, 2013, 10:28:54 PM
Hahaaa ah come on now. It's hardly whataboutery, you said you have already answered me, so I'm just asking you to give it in a yes or no format.

This is the very definition of whataboutery. I mention other Gárdaí shot by Republicans and you introduce the old IRA the context being: what about them?

I have made an unequivocal unambiguous statement.

You are engaging in whataboutery to try to paint me as a hypocrite for the heinous crime, in your eyes, of being against the killing of my own people. We all know the argument as it has been done to death here. It assumes that the terrorists in the 1920s are untouchable heroes beyond criticism and that if they were beyond criticism then any murderer who hides behind the same name while shooting people must also be above criticism. It is as stupid as that.

The PIRA had nothing to do with last weeks events but you brought them up. Whataboutery that's called.

You said you already answered my question, so why not sum it up with a yes or no answer.

I have answered it. You now want to twist it. Why would I want to let you?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on February 03, 2013, 10:36:44 PM
Hahaaa ah come on now. It's hardly whataboutery, you said you have already answered me, so I'm just asking you to give it in a yes or no format.

This is the very definition of whataboutery. I mention other Gárdaí shot by Republicans and you introduce the old IRA the context being: what about them?

I have made an unequivocal unambiguous statement.

You are engaging in whataboutery to try to paint me as a hypocrite for the heinous crime, in your eyes, of being against the killing of my own people. We all know the argument as it has been done to death here. It assumes that the terrorists in the 1920s are untouchable heroes beyond criticism and that if they were beyond criticism then any murderer who hides behind the same name while shooting people must also be above criticism. It is as stupid as that.

The PIRA had nothing to do with last weeks events but you brought them up. Whataboutery that's called.

You said you already answered my question, so why not sum it up with a yes or no answer.

I have answered it. You now want to twist it. Why would I want to let you?

Twist it? Hardly! I'm asking you so untwist it by answering with a simple word: yes or no.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: All of a Sludden on February 03, 2013, 10:52:30 PM

Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 03, 2013, 10:53:50 PM
Hahaaa ah come on now. It's hardly whataboutery, you said you have already answered me, so I'm just asking you to give it in a yes or no format.

This is the very definition of whataboutery. I mention other Gárdaí shot by Republicans and you introduce the old IRA the context being: what about them?

I have made an unequivocal unambiguous statement.

You are engaging in whataboutery to try to paint me as a hypocrite for the heinous crime, in your eyes, of being against the killing of my own people. We all know the argument as it has been done to death here. It assumes that the terrorists in the 1920s are untouchable heroes beyond criticism and that if they were beyond criticism then any murderer who hides behind the same name while shooting people must also be above criticism. It is as stupid as that.

The PIRA had nothing to do with last weeks events but you brought them up. Whataboutery that's called.

You said you already answered my question, so why not sum it up with a yes or no answer.

I have answered it. You now want to twist it. Why would I want to let you?

Twist it? Hardly! I'm asking you so untwist it by answering with a simple word: yes or no.

The whole argument, including where you are trying to force it, has already been done to death.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: theticklemister on February 03, 2013, 11:13:14 PM
Lets twist and shout, like we did last summer.......
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: LeoMc on February 04, 2013, 08:54:59 AM
You're such a w**ker muppet

I don't shoot my own people.

Your freedom was won by an organisation which did. I assume you comdemn that organisation in its entirety?

Why should the IRA be condemned "in it's entirety"?
Surely individual acts can be condemned without damning an entire organisation.

Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Nally Stand on February 04, 2013, 09:03:47 AM
You're such a w**ker muppet

I don't shoot my own people.

Your freedom was won by an organisation which did. I assume you comdemn that organisation in its entirety?

Why should the IRA be condemned "in it's entirety"?
Surely individual acts can be condemned without damning an entire organisation.

I couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Applesisapples on February 04, 2013, 10:29:37 AM
Muppet, when you universally condemn the PIRA but are ambivalent on the old IRA you leave your self open to the charge of hypocrisy. It is however a little too late and quite embarrassing really to see Sinn Fein now condemn the murders of Gerry McCabe. Whatever about the circumstances that led to RUC/Army/UDR killings in the North those men who shot the Garda in Dundalk are no different to those who murdered Garda McCabe and this should have been condemned at the time, especially since they were like the UVF in East Belfast, operating without HQ approval. Unfortunately Ireland's history is littered with unnecessary violence and innocent deaths and what has it all changed? Nothing the British still occupy and rule 6 of our counties, albeit with the acquiescence of Republicans and Nationalists.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: trileacman on February 04, 2013, 10:43:07 AM
You're such a w**ker muppet

I don't shoot my own people.

Your freedom was won by an organisation which did. I assume you comdemn that organisation in its entirety?

Why should the IRA be condemned "in it's entirety"?
Surely individual acts can be condemned without damning an entire organisation.

I couldn't agree more.

So you will be extending the same courtesy to the RUC and British Army?

"Surely individual acts can be condemned without damning an entire organisation."
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 04, 2013, 12:02:11 PM
Muppet, when you universally condemn the PIRA but are ambivalent on the old IRA you leave your self open to the charge of hypocrisy. It is however a little too late and quite embarrassing really to see Sinn Fein now condemn the murders of Gerry McCabe. Whatever about the circumstances that led to RUC/Army/UDR killings in the North those men who shot the Garda in Dundalk are no different to those who murdered Garda McCabe and this should have been condemned at the time, especially since they were like the UVF in East Belfast, operating without HQ approval. Unfortunately Ireland's history is littered with unnecessary violence and innocent deaths and what has it all changed? Nothing the British still occupy and rule 6 of our counties, albeit with the acquiescence of Republicans and Nationalists.

I didn't universally condemn the PIRA.

I condemn anyone that shoots or shot innocent Irishmen. The PIRA were involved in this, among others.

'Unfortunately Ireland's history is littered with unnecessary violence and innocent deaths' - I couldn't agree more. This is made worse by the revisionism that demands the belief that Ireland only achieved anything using the bullet. That was not the case at all. Even ignoring O'Connell and Davitt, independence for the 26 was achieved on the back of civil disobedience as much as it was on the back of the casualties on the British side.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 10, 2013, 06:45:10 PM
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-American-millionaire-Bill-Flynn-paid-for-Gerry-Adams-surgery-in-USA-190581841.html (http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-American-millionaire-Bill-Flynn-paid-for-Gerry-Adams-surgery-in-USA-190581841.html)

If only Bertie had got a medical procedure with his €30,000.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on February 13, 2013, 05:38:01 PM
On top of the $30k for the op from Mr Flynn... http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/millionaire-who-paid-for-adamss-op-also-helped-sf-leader-get-us-visa-29060283.html
it appears that 'Friends of SF' stumped up for Gerry to travel business class... http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/adams-flew-business-class-for-surgery-in-us-29066714.html

Life on the average industrial wage isn't quite so austere when you've friends in high places.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Rossfan on February 13, 2013, 05:40:18 PM
Lawnseed and Nally's Brave New World isn't looking all that different from FF or Fg now is it?  ::) :-[
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: lawnseed on February 13, 2013, 06:20:33 PM
Lawnseed and Nally's Brave New World isn't looking all that different from FF or Fg now is it?  ::) :-[
have you any evidence that anything was given by adams in return for this help. planning? a contract? a pension?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 13, 2013, 07:01:26 PM
Lawnseed and Nally's Brave New World isn't looking all that different from FF or Fg now is it?  ::) :-[
have you any evidence that anything was given by adams in return for this help. planning? a contract? a pension?

Why so cynical Lawnseed? We all know the world is full of wonderful people who hand over money for absolutely nothing.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Rossfan on February 13, 2013, 07:08:36 PM
I wonder do SF think there should be a Supertax on rich people in the US?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on February 14, 2013, 11:30:15 AM
On top of the $30k for the op from Mr Flynn... http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/millionaire-who-paid-for-adamss-op-also-helped-sf-leader-get-us-visa-29060283.html
it appears that 'Friends of SF' stumped up for Gerry to travel business class... http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/adams-flew-business-class-for-surgery-in-us-29066714.html

Life on the average industrial wage isn't quite so austere when you've friends in high places.


Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Ulick on February 14, 2013, 08:17:43 PM
In the company I work for and in the last one, all over-60s go business class on  long haul flights. Is this not pretty standard?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 14, 2013, 08:50:20 PM
In the company I work for and in the last one, all over-60s go business class on  long haul flights. Is this not pretty standard?

Brilliant.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: LeoMc on February 15, 2013, 07:48:37 AM
In the company I work for and in the last one, all over-60s go business class on  long haul flights. Is this not pretty standard?
Are you saying Gerry works for Mr Flynn?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Ulick on February 15, 2013, 08:56:00 AM
In the company I work for and in the last one, all over-60s go business class on  long haul flights. Is this not pretty standard?

Brilliant.  ;D ;D ;D

Is that a yes or no?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: trileacman on February 15, 2013, 01:51:44 PM
In the company I work for and in the last one, all over-60s go business class on  long haul flights. Is this not pretty standard?

Brilliant.  ;D ;D ;D

Is that a yes or no?
I can think of a few hundred farm businesses who don't jet around the world on first class flights. Then again not many of them can afford to pamper to the needs of Irish politicians.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Ulick on February 15, 2013, 02:27:50 PM
Firstly, business class is not the same as first class on long haul, the latter being considerably more expensive.

Secondly, I don't know many farmers who would have business that would take them overseas on a regular basis and less so those who have an organisation overseas specifically for the purpose of funding their overseas trips. If they did it would be a bit silly not to allow the overseas organisation to pay.

My original question was genuine by the way. I know that in the north many companies had to change their travel  policies years ago after the DVT scares. In fact not a few years ago I was part of a company delegation on a long flight. The Directors, senior managers and I sat in cattle class, my line manager got to go business class (she was 60 or close to it) while the CEO and his assistant went first class.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Hardy on February 15, 2013, 02:54:58 PM
My original question was genuine by the way. I know that in the north many companies had to change their travel  policies years ago after the DVT scares. In fact not a few years ago I was part of a company delegation on a long flight. The Directors, senior managers and I sat in cattle class, my line manager got to go business class (she was 60 or close to it) while the CEO and his assistant went first class.

I've never heard of an age-based seating hierarchy before. They're not public sector organisations, by any chance?

In fact, most of the companies I've worked for (mostly American multinationals, but a couple of Irish companies) have had ecenomy-only rules for everybody, from top to bottom, on the basis that they understood what the airlines understood - that the only people who travel business/first class are people for whom someone else is paying the fare.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Ulick on February 15, 2013, 03:04:00 PM
I've never heard of an age-based seating hierarchy before. They're not public sector organisations, by any chance?

Semi-state.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Maguire01 on February 15, 2013, 05:29:50 PM
In the company I work for and in the last one, all over-60s go business class on  long haul flights. Is this not pretty standard?
Can you not see the contradiction between making a big deal out of the AIW and then taking business class flights? And it's not just the flights...
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/from-working-class-to-first-class-sinn-fein-gets-a-taste-for-luxury-26803230.html
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: muppet on February 15, 2013, 05:49:38 PM
Firstly, business class is not the same as first class on long haul, the latter being considerably more expensive.

Secondly, I don't know many farmers who would have business that would take them overseas on a regular basis and less so those who have an organisation overseas specifically for the purpose of funding their overseas trips. If they did it would be a bit silly not to allow the overseas organisation to pay.

My original question was genuine by the way. I know that in the north many companies had to change their travel  policies years ago after the DVT scares. In fact not a few years ago I was part of a company delegation on a long flight. The Directors, senior managers and I sat in cattle class, my line manager got to go business class (she was 60 or close to it) while the CEO and his assistant went first class.

You're killing me, please stop.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 15, 2013, 06:05:01 PM
I just done a quick check with Aer Lingus for flights from Dublin to NY.

Both flying out of Dub 16.6.13 returning 20.6.13

Economy €715
Business €2,995

There was no first class option available.


Tell me, where do you get application forms to join Sinn Fein?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: armaghniac on February 15, 2013, 06:18:58 PM
Quote
Firstly, business class is not the same as first class on long haul, the latter being considerably more expensive.

Quote
Economy €715
Business €2,995

There was no first class option available.

A lot of airlines do not offer First Class on long haul. It isn't a great seller, as the plutocrats have private aircraft and business class is comfortable enough for most.

Quote
My original question was genuine by the way. I know that in the north many companies had to change their travel  policies years ago after the DVT scares

This concept doesn't seem to have penetrated south of the border. Hopefully, in a few years it will  ;)
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 15, 2013, 06:21:27 PM
http://www.sinnfein.ie/what-sinn-fein-stands-for (http://www.sinnfein.ie/what-sinn-fein-stands-for)

90 years after partition, as communities divided by the border become increasingly reintegrated, there is a growing pull towards reunification.  As old allegiances change and people from loyalist backgrounds consider voting for a republican party because it best represents their social and economic interests, the potential for dialogue with those from the unionist community about their place in a united Ireland becomes possible.

Who the hell are these clowns trying to kid?
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: theticklemister on February 15, 2013, 07:25:15 PM
http://www.sinnfein.ie/what-sinn-fein-stands-for (http://www.sinnfein.ie/what-sinn-fein-stands-for)

90 years after partition, as communities divided by the border become increasingly reintegrated, there is a growing pull towards reunification.  As old allegiances change and people from loyalist backgrounds consider voting for a republican party because it best represents their social and economic interests, the potential for dialogue with those from the unionist community about their place in a united Ireland becomes possible.

Who the hell are these clowns trying to kid?

Ball de beaver may talk sense for once.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: Tony Baloney on February 15, 2013, 07:49:42 PM
Quote
Firstly, business class is not the same as first class on long haul, the latter being considerably more expensive.

Quote
Economy €715
Business €2,995

There was no first class option available.

A lot of airlines do not offer First Class on long haul. It isn't a great seller, as the plutocrats have private aircraft and business class is comfortable enough for most.

Quote
My original question was genuine by the way. I know that in the north many companies had to change their travel  policies years ago after the DVT scares

This concept doesn't seem to have penetrated south of the border. Hopefully, in a few years it will  ;)
I didn't have you down as being in your 60s!

Our place had a policy of business class one way for Senior Managers and both ways for anyone more senior for trips to our plants in the US. This has been recently knocked on the head and everyone goes cattle.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: armaghniac on February 15, 2013, 08:25:19 PM
Quote
I didn't have you down as being in your 60s!

I'm not. Which is why I don't see any need for this measure to be introduced immediately.

Quote
Our place had a policy of business class one way for Senior Managers and both ways for anyone more senior for trips to our plants in the US. This has been recently knocked on the head and everyone goes cattle.

Hell is long haul economy... Although the individual entertainment nowadays helps.

When my lotto number comes up, I am going to buy a round the world first class ticket and fly to Tahiti with Singapore airlines.
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on February 15, 2013, 08:46:39 PM
I just done a quick check with Aer Lingus for flights from Dublin to NY.

Both flying out of Dub 16.6.13 returning 20.6.13

Economy €715
Business €2,995

There was no first class option available.


Tell me, where do you get application forms to join Sinn Fein?

Just go online and you can join,but you need to be prepared  to work
Title: Re: Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.
Post by: glens abu on February 15, 2013, 08:58:30 PM
I just done a quick check with Aer Lingus for flights from Dublin to NY.

Both flying out of Dub 16.6.13 returning 20.6.13

Economy €715
Business €2,995

There was no first class option available.


Tell me, where