Priest stuns congregation by resigning over affair.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

If so - how can you become reconciled with the church - if your estrangement from them is based solely on their stance on your divorce?

How is a priest supposed to change the churches stance on her divorce?

He is not to change the church's stance.  He is to refuse sacraments to the sinner.

Unfortunately for this lady and priest, there is no honourable way out.  She can only really be estranged, not resigned (although: http://www.countmeout.ie/) from the church.   

Fortunately for me I am exempt from all that tosh as my own mother got estranged from the Diocese of Limerick before they got to wet my head.  This was due to her objection to then mandatory "Churching" post my arrival in the world.

Another aspect of the catholic church's obsession with all things sexual (retrospectively dressed up as something else).

I hope these two individuals find happiness in their relationship and aren't "run out of town" by anyone.

/Jim.

[Donagh]

1. Large assumption
2. I am sure when your marriage falls apart - the fact that the archaic nature of the church "forbids" it - isnt the biggest thing on someones mind
3. Arent you a catholic? Even though your post seems to suggest that you dont believe that I am.
4. As above I guess.

Puckoon, a lot of people who have been around here long enough know my religious opinions and unlike Doogie they know better than to make unwarranted assumptions about my personal beliefs of the basis of something which challenges their cosy world view. The opinion I have presented is that of a Catholic not an 'à la carte Catholic' as they have become known. As this man is a Catholic priest who vowed obedience to Church teaching and doctrine, then I feel it is appropriate to present this view. Of course if that view is uncomfortable for some to take then so be it but not only has this man broken his vows but he has also undermined his Church and his fellow priests who struggle to keep theirs. I acknowledge he has done the correct and honourable thing by resigning but it remains that he has damaged his Church and the authority of his fellow priests by breaking his vows.

[Evil Genius]

Of course you could be jumping to conclusions as much as Evil Genius (with his speculation on paternity).

I will repeat that I was NOT being serious with what was just a throwaway remark.

I accept it may not have been funny, but it was inspired (if that's not too pretentious a term) by the old Alabama 'joke' about the man who introduced a friend to his wife, sister and daughter.

There was only one woman in the room at the time...

[Jim_Murphy_74]

I will repeat that I was NOT being serious with what was just a throwaway remark.

I'm aware of that.  I was making reference to the reactions to the comment rather than the comment itself.

/Jim.

[Evil Genius]

The man is a Catholic priest. She is a divorced/separated Catholic. As a divorced/separated person the woman is obviously in estranged or in difficulties with the Church. In those circumstances, the duty of the priest is to provide for her spiritual well-being and guide her in such a way so as she can reconcile herself with the Church. So just like the doctor/patient comparison, the priest has a clear duty in such circumstances

Do you know she is Catholic? And even assuming she is, which is she, divorced or separated? The news report describes her as "separated" not divorced.
Since the former may be tolerated by the RC Church in certain circumstances, but the latter may not ever be, then her being separated should clearly cause many fewer personal and religious difficulties than if she were divorced.
And as for his duty to "provide for her spiritual well-being etc", how do you know that he has not advised her to speak to another Priest, in order to help her deal with her situation?
If the man is decent enough to own up to the affair, renounce his vows and lose his job etc, rather than pursue the Bishop Casey "Brush it under the Carpet" option, I would suspect he wants the best possible outcome for her.

...and that duty is most definitely not to be shagging her.

How do you know they have been "shagging", as you so delicately and sensitively put it? All we know to date is that he has announced his intention to leave the Church and marry this woman.

Anyhow, I'm off to consult a Bible over this matter. I could have sworn there was something about "Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged" in it somewhere...

[longrunsthefox]

I wonder what the woman's husband and father of the children thinks about it all.

At a wild guess I'd say the woman's husband is hopping mad, but the father of the children is keeping his head down, especially if he (father) is also the Priest (Father)?

a very wild guess alright as you have no idea of the circumstances 

Er, I wasn't being serious. It was meant to be a light-hearted comment, you know, pointing out that the "woman's husband and father of the children" might be two different people.

To whom should I apologise?

Oh! Mickey Harte

[Donagh]

The man is a Catholic priest. She is a divorced/separated Catholic. As a divorced/separated person the woman is obviously in estranged or in difficulties with the Church. In those circumstances, the duty of the priest is to provide for her spiritual well-being and guide her in such a way so as she can reconcile herself with the Church. So just like the doctor/patient comparison, the priest has a clear duty in such circumstances

Do you know she is Catholic? And even assuming she is, which is she, divorced or separated? The news report describes her as "separated" not divorced.
Since the former may be tolerated by the RC Church in certain circumstances, but the latter may not ever be, then her being separated should clearly cause many fewer personal and religious difficulties than if she were divorced.
And as for his duty to "provide for her spiritual well-being etc", how do you know that he has not advised her to speak to another Priest, in order to help her deal with her situation?
If the man is decent enough to own up to the affair, renounce his vows and lose his job etc, rather than pursue the Bishop Casey "Brush it under the Carpet" option, I would suspect he wants the best possible outcome for her.

...and that duty is most definitely not to be shagging her.

How do you know they have been "shagging", as you so delicately and sensitively put it? All we know to date is that he has announced his intention to leave the Church and marry this woman.

Anyhow, I'm off to consult a Bible over this matter. I could have sworn there was something about "Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged" in it somewhere...

You're just rambing now for the sake of it. See my previous posts on the duties of a Catholic priest.

[Evil Genius]

The man is a Catholic priest. She is a divorced/separated Catholic. As a divorced/separated person the woman is obviously in estranged or in difficulties with the Church. In those circumstances, the duty of the priest is to provide for her spiritual well-being and guide her in such a way so as she can reconcile herself with the Church. So just like the doctor/patient comparison, the priest has a clear duty in such circumstances

Do you know she is Catholic? And even assuming she is, which is she, divorced or separated? The news report describes her as "separated" not divorced.
Since the former may be tolerated by the RC Church in certain circumstances, but the latter may not ever be, then her being separated should clearly cause many fewer personal and religious difficulties than if she were divorced.
And as for his duty to "provide for her spiritual well-being etc", how do you know that he has not advised her to speak to another Priest, in order to help her deal with her situation?
If the man is decent enough to own up to the affair, renounce his vows and lose his job etc, rather than pursue the Bishop Casey "Brush it under the Carpet" option, I would suspect he wants the best possible outcome for her.

...and that duty is most definitely not to be shagging her.

How do you know they have been "shagging", as you so delicately and sensitively put it? All we know to date is that he has announced his intention to leave the Church and marry this woman.

Anyhow, I'm off to consult a Bible over this matter. I could have sworn there was something about "Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged" in it somewhere...

You're just rambing now for the sake of it. See my previous posts on the duties of a Catholic priest.

Oh, so when the questions get difficult, your best retort is to accuse the questioner of rambling? 

OK, since you have based your case on certain assumptions, I shall address those directly:
1. Do you know the woman in question is Catholic?
2. If "Yes", do you know for certain she is/was a member of his Congregation?
3. Do you know her exact marital status? (Your posting a contradictory description of her as "Divorced/Separated" clearly suggests you don't)
4. Do you know that the Priest continued to advise her spiritually after their relationship began?
5. Do you know that he and she are "shagging"?

You know, for one who demands such high standards of evdence and burden of proof etc on other issues, you're playing remarkably "fast and loose" with the facts of this particular topic.

Perhaps the Priest is not the only hypocrite in this affair...

[Puckoon]

1. Large assumption
2. I am sure when your marriage falls apart - the fact that the archaic nature of the church "forbids" it - isnt the biggest thing on someones mind
3. Arent you a catholic? Even though your post seems to suggest that you dont believe that I am.
4. As above I guess.

Puckoon, a lot of people who have been around here long enough know my religious opinions and unlike Doogie they know better than to make unwarranted assumptions about my personal beliefs of the basis of something which challenges their cosy world view. The opinion I have presented is that of a Catholic not an 'à la carte Catholic' as they have become known. As this man is a Catholic priest who vowed obedience to Church teaching and doctrine, then I feel it is appropriate to present this view. Of course if that view is uncomfortable for some to take then so be it but not only has this man broken his vows but he has also undermined his Church and his fellow priests who struggle to keep theirs. I acknowledge he has done the correct and honourable thing by resigning but it remains that he has damaged his Church and the authority of his fellow priests by breaking his vows.

OK - Thats what I am asking. You said to ask a catholic - so as you are a firm, non wavering, fundamentalist catholic, I thought Id ask you.

Q. How can anyone who is divorced become reconciled with the church, on the basis that their irreconciliation lies firmly at the churches stance on their divorce, and not any fault of their own (other than god forbid - their wife/husband divorced them)?

Thats what I wanted to know - you said to ask a catholic, so here I am, asking one.

(I realise I may have made up a word there).

[Puckoon]

If so - how can you become reconciled with the church - if your estrangement from them is based solely on their stance on your divorce?

How is a priest supposed to change the churches stance on her divorce?

He is not to change the church's stance.  He is to refuse sacraments to the sinner.

Unfortunately for this lady and priest, there is no honourable way out.  She can only really be estranged, not resigned (although: http://www.countmeout.ie/) from the church.   

Fortunately for me I am exempt from all that tosh as my own mother got estranged from the Diocese of Limerick before they got to wet my head.  This was due to her objection to then mandatory "Churching" post my arrival in the world.

Another aspect of the catholic church's obsession with all things sexual (retrospectively dressed up as something else).

I hope these two individuals find happiness in their relationship and aren't "run out of town" by anyone.

/Jim.

Arent we all sinners?

Even the saints fall seven times a day....?

[armaghniac]

How can anyone who is divorced become reconciled with the church, on the basis that their irreconciliation lies firmly at the churches stance on their divorce, and not any fault of their own (other than god forbid - their wife/husband divorced them)?

I imagine that anyone divorced by someone else is in the clear unless they fornicate.
Also in some cases people have had marriages annulled.

[Donagh]

The man is a Catholic priest. She is a divorced/separated Catholic. As a divorced/separated person the woman is obviously in estranged or in difficulties with the Church. In those circumstances, the duty of the priest is to provide for her spiritual well-being and guide her in such a way so as she can reconcile herself with the Church. So just like the doctor/patient comparison, the priest has a clear duty in such circumstances

Do you know she is Catholic? And even assuming she is, which is she, divorced or separated? The news report describes her as "separated" not divorced.
Since the former may be tolerated by the RC Church in certain circumstances, but the latter may not ever be, then her being separated should clearly cause many fewer personal and religious difficulties than if she were divorced.
And as for his duty to "provide for her spiritual well-being etc", how do you know that he has not advised her to speak to another Priest, in order to help her deal with her situation?
If the man is decent enough to own up to the affair, renounce his vows and lose his job etc, rather than pursue the Bishop Casey "Brush it under the Carpet" option, I would suspect he wants the best possible outcome for her.

...and that duty is most definitely not to be shagging her.

How do you know they have been "shagging", as you so delicately and sensitively put it? All we know to date is that he has announced his intention to leave the Church and marry this woman.

Anyhow, I'm off to consult a Bible over this matter. I could have sworn there was something about "Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged" in it somewhere...

You're just rambing now for the sake of it. See my previous posts on the duties of a Catholic priest.

Oh, so when the questions get difficult, your best retort is to accuse the questioner of rambling? 

OK, since you have based your case on certain assumptions, I shall address those directly:
1. Do you know the woman in question is Catholic?
2. If "Yes", do you know for certain she is/was a member of his Congregation?
3. Do you know her exact marital status? (Your posting a contradictory description of her as "Divorced/Separated" clearly suggests you don't)
4. Do you know that the Priest continued to advise her spiritually after their relationship began?
5. Do you know that he and she are "shagging"?

You know, for one who demands such high standards of evdence and burden of proof etc on other issues, you're playing remarkably "fast and loose" with the facts of this particular topic.

Perhaps the Priest is not the only hypocrite in this affair...

I already said in a previous post I was making similar assumptions as those who'd already posted.

[mylestheslasher]

And if we had put the boot into the priest you'd be calling us all anti church. Would ya ever give it a rest and stop talking rubbish. How is it a serious abuse of position for a man to form a relationship with a woman. The woman has divorced her husband so what he thinks is irrelevant. Are you some sort of fundamentalist catholic?, you weren't so quick to criticise the church when we were debating their abuse of children and subsequent cover up - instead you blamed the government. Or maybe that is your problem, protect the mechanics of the church but not the people who "belong" to it, is that it. Do you consider yourself a republican too?

It's not an abuse of position for a man and woman to form a relationship but it is for a priest for reasons I've outlined in previous posts. Now if you haven't the confidence in your position to debate an issue on it's merit without getting personal, I'll leave you to it.

Where have I got personal? I pulled you up on your views nothing else. You are taking a very hard line against this priest while anyone that knows the man on here has nothing but good to say about him. I suggest you are against the man because he broke the rules of the catholic church - a rule which has nothing to do with the word of Jesus or God as far as I can see. Now I compare this to your failure on the "clerical abuse" thread to condemn bishops, priests and others who covered up the horrific abuse of little children. Indeed you proclaimed that a priest who knew about such actions taking place would not come out and speak if the bishop told him not to. You showed great understanding to such a priest (if such things ever happened) and you instead spread the majority of the blame to the government. It appears to me, like many a bishop, you are more concerned about keeping the catholic church in a position of power than you are of caring about the people within the church. Not very religious in my opinion and most certainly not the view of a republican.

[Donagh]

OK - Thats what I am asking. You said to ask a catholic - so as you are a firm, non wavering, fundamentalist catholic, I thought Id ask you.

Q. How can anyone who is divorced become reconciled with the church, on the basis that their irreconciliation lies firmly at the churches stance on their divorce, and not any fault of their own (other than god forbid - their wife/husband divorced them)?

Thats what I wanted to know - you said to ask a catholic, so here I am, asking one.

(I realise I may have made up a word there).

I'm not.

[Donagh]

Where have I got personal? I pulled you up on your views nothing else. You are taking a very hard line against this priest while anyone that knows the man on here has nothing but good to say about him. I suggest you are against the man because he broke the rules of the catholic church - a rule which has nothing to do with the word of Jesus or God as far as I can see. Now I compare this to your failure on the "clerical abuse" thread to condemn bishops, priests and others who covered up the horrific abuse of little children. Indeed you proclaimed that a priest who knew about such actions taking place would not come out and speak if the bishop told him not to. You showed great understanding to such a priest (if such things ever happened) and you instead spread the majority of the blame to the government. It appears to me, like many a bishop, you are more concerned about keeping the catholic church in a position of power than you are of caring about the people within the church. Not very religious in my opinion and most certainly not the view of a republican.

I'm not against the man because he broke the rules of the Church. I am "against" him, if that's the right phrase because he broke his vows. Those vows allowed him to be elevated to a certain level of trust in his community so by breaking the vows he has undermined his Church and his fellow priests who took the same vows.