Munster Club Championships 2021

[clarshack]

These Inter and Junior provincials are relatively new? Was started in 2004 and the first final was 2005, that's 17 years, If they can't get their shit together in that period then there is something seriously wrong

they became official in 2004 but there were unofficial provincial finals going back to the late 90's.

[Milltown Row2]

These Inter and Junior provincials are relatively new? Was started in 2004 and the first final was 2005, that's 17 years, If they can't get their shit together in that period then there is something seriously wrong

they became official in 2004 but there were unofficial provincial finals going back to the late 90's.

There's been an Ulster Minor tournament for many years also, I know that, but officially from Croke, the tournament has been recognised since 2004. If Shark thinks there is no appetite to change it why do Kerry teams play in it then?

[Rossfan]

Eh?

[Milltown Row2]

Eh?

I think Shark was saying they'd rather stay promoted than win the provincial championship, so why bother entering it?

I could have taken him up wrongly and apologise if I did

[shark]

These Inter and Junior provincials are relatively new? Was started in 2004 and the first final was 2005, that's 17 years, If they can't get their shit together in that period then there is something seriously wrong

they became official in 2004 but there were unofficial provincial finals going back to the late 90's.

There's been an Ulster Minor tournament for many years also, I know that, but officially from Croke, the tournament has been recognised since 2004. If Shark thinks there is no appetite to change it why do Kerry teams play in it then?

What I mean is, there is no appetite to change the status quo , of unbalanced Junior and Intermediate championships. Maybe there is some underground movement that I'm unaware of.
Not sure what you mean by why Kerry teams play in it.

Interesting that it was unofficial prior to 2004. My club won a Leinster Junior in 2000 or 2001. Never realised it was unofficial 

[shark]

Eh?

I think Shark was saying they'd rather stay promoted than win the provincial championship, so why bother entering it?

I could have taken him up wrongly and apologise if I did

What I meant there was that the biggest prize for a club winning, say Intermediate, is getting up to Senior. Winning a provincial Intermediate would be a nice cherry. But if they were to get relegated back to Intermediate the following season (which of course is an independent event) they probably wouldn't see much consolation in having won a provincial the year before. I get that it is a hypothetical subjective scenario , and may have been confusing. Only mentioned it as it's exactly what I experienced before.

[Milltown Row2]

Eh?

I think Shark was saying they'd rather stay promoted than win the provincial championship, so why bother entering it?

I could have taken him up wrongly and apologise if I did

What I meant there was that the biggest prize for a club winning, say Intermediate, is getting up to Senior. Winning a provincial Intermediate would be a nice cherry. But if they were to get relegated back to Intermediate the following season (which of course is an independent event) they probably wouldn't see much consolation in having won a provincial the year before. I get that it is a hypothetical subjective scenario , and may have been confusing. Only mentioned it as it's exactly what I experienced before.

The target for any club is senior status and continued development towards winning senior championship, obviously counties can arrange their club championships (junior, intermediate senior) to suit their own preference.

The provincial and all Ireland championship provides, certainly at junior and intermediate level a chance for a 'small' club too achieve an appearance at Croke park representing their parish,family,friends and club.   For some clubs it's an amazing feeling, but it seems by the results of the previous 17 years that, in football, the Kerry winners have won, at Junior intermediate, a disproportionate amount.

Personally I've no issues with how Kerry run their show, club championships is the counties main concern, and they feel it works well for Kerry football, but it does impact on these competitions.

I've been lucky enough to manage our hurlers at Croke park at intermediate level, and can see how it brings on teams, we played senior championship final in hurling few years later, so it's got benefits that lift teams.

[shark]

Eh?

I think Shark was saying they'd rather stay promoted than win the provincial championship, so why bother entering it?

I could have taken him up wrongly and apologise if I did

What I meant there was that the biggest prize for a club winning, say Intermediate, is getting up to Senior. Winning a provincial Intermediate would be a nice cherry. But if they were to get relegated back to Intermediate the following season (which of course is an independent event) they probably wouldn't see much consolation in having won a provincial the year before. I get that it is a hypothetical subjective scenario , and may have been confusing. Only mentioned it as it's exactly what I experienced before.

The target for any club is senior status and continued development towards winning senior championship, obviously counties can arrange their club championships (junior, intermediate senior) to suit their own preference.

The provincial and all Ireland championship provides, certainly at junior and intermediate level a chance for a 'small' club too achieve an appearance at Croke park representing their parish,family,friends and club.   For some clubs it's an amazing feeling, but it seems by the results of the previous 17 years that, in football, the Kerry winners have won, at Junior intermediate, a disproportionate amount.

Personally I've no issues with how Kerry run their show, club championships is the counties main concern, and they feel it works well for Kerry football, but it does impact on these competitions.

I've been lucky enough to manage our hurlers at Croke park at intermediate level, and can see how it brings on teams, we played senior championship final in hurling few years later, so it's got benefits that lift teams.

agree with all the above.

St.Gall's I presume, based on the above? played an underage challenge match up there in late 90's. we were well looked after by the club. Can't remember the game, but remember the food in the clubhouse afterwards!

[Milltown Row2]

Eh?

I think Shark was saying they'd rather stay promoted than win the provincial championship, so why bother entering it?

I could have taken him up wrongly and apologise if I did

What I meant there was that the biggest prize for a club winning, say Intermediate, is getting up to Senior. Winning a provincial Intermediate would be a nice cherry. But if they were to get relegated back to Intermediate the following season (which of course is an independent event) they probably wouldn't see much consolation in having won a provincial the year before. I get that it is a hypothetical subjective scenario , and may have been confusing. Only mentioned it as it's exactly what I experienced before.

The target for any club is senior status and continued development towards winning senior championship, obviously counties can arrange their club championships (junior, intermediate senior) to suit their own preference.

The provincial and all Ireland championship provides, certainly at junior and intermediate level a chance for a 'small' club too achieve an appearance at Croke park representing their parish,family,friends and club.   For some clubs it's an amazing feeling, but it seems by the results of the previous 17 years that, in football, the Kerry winners have won, at Junior intermediate, a disproportionate amount.

Personally I've no issues with how Kerry run their show, club championships is the counties main concern, and they feel it works well for Kerry football, but it does impact on these competitions.

I've been lucky enough to manage our hurlers at Croke park at intermediate level, and can see how it brings on teams, we played senior championship final in hurling few years later, so it's got benefits that lift teams.

agree with all the above.

St.Gall's I presume, based on the above? played an underage challenge match up there in late 90's. we were well looked after by the club. Can't remember the game, but remember the food in the clubhouse afterwards!

Yes, glad the hospitality was good!

[Rossfan]

An additional anomaly is that a lot of teams in the JFC didn't win their County Championship as B teams aren't allowed take part.
Ros' rep in 21 were losing SEMI Finalists and got hockeyed.

[general_lee]

Maybe every county should only allow 8 teams at senior level, as someone suggested earlier other counties should be following Kerry's model. Nice and elitist, make it as hard as possible for any up and coming club within that county to get near senior, while allowing what are in reality senior/intermediate standard clubs compete at intermediate/junior level. For context, if Armagh adapted a similar model, our current senior champions & Ulster club senior semi finalists would be intermediate 

[Rossfan]

Kerry will do what suits Kerry, rest do what suits themselves.
Good luck with trying to get Clubs to vote for downgrading thenselves

[Ciarrai_thuaidh]

I've probably posted this a few times here already but just once more...

The aim in Kerry for many years now has been to 1)Keep the County Senior football championship as strong as possible so it is a testing ground for potential county players..and 2)That every single player in the county, regardless of their club's level, have an opportunity to play in the Senior c'ship through the Divisional teams.
Now, for the last 2 years this has meant there has only been 8 club teams and 8 divisional teams in the Senior championship. In my own view, 8 clubs is too few and they are currently reviewing this situation. I think it's likely they will increase to 10 clubs and 8 divisions this year or next. I think that would be a better balance. There is currently 16 clubs in Intermediate, 16 in Premier Junior, 16 in Junior. There are no second teams allowed in these championships unlike other counties. They have separate competitions. I'm not sure how it is proposed to alter the number of clubs - perhaps a 10 - 16 - 16 - 14 split, but I'm not entirely sure.

In case it needs to be said again, there is zero connection between county league and a club's championship grade in Kerry. This often gets thrown out there as an argument - Gneeveguilla who won the Premier Junior (and Munster Junior) last year, won Division 2 of the league and are therefore promoted  to Div 1 for 2022. They beat Castleisland (an Intermediate club in 2021) in final. Na Gaeil, winners of Intermediate 2021, so Senior in 2022, are still in Division 2 below Gneeveguilla. League has no bearing or link to championship. Clubs play most league games without their county players, without players who spend summer on J1s etc (quite a decent number) so there are teams who do better than others in League.

Could keep typing but don't want to be very long winded..basically, the gradings are done for good reasons and even if there are 10 Senior clubs the Intermediate and Junior winners will still be strong. In Munster the strongest competition for Kerry clubs would usually be from Cork clubs, but they have a system for the last few years that has the winners of their 3rd tier championship entering Munster Intermediate and winners of 5th tier entering Munster Junior..hence, Kerry teams are largely winning the Inter and Junior football and often by large margins. The Cork situation needs changing and there is a proposal to rectify it being debated currently.

Anyway, as I've said before it's the way it's done down here. Divisional teams play in Cork SFC and should actually be very strong but are largely treated like sh*t, so haven't had very much success recently. A North Tipp combination won a Tipp SFC in last 10 years I know but I seem to recall there was a move to stop them playing thereafter?
Apart from that divisional teams don't seem to exist in many other places, when there would definitely be areas that could benefit from them surely..

[Farrandeelin]

I think the Kerry system is fascinating and it's a wonder other counties don't adopt a more similar approach. I know clubs won't vote for their demotion either.

Also here in Mayo the league and championship are two separate entities.

[Redhand Santa]

I've probably posted this a few times here already but just once more...

The aim in Kerry for many years now has been to 1)Keep the County Senior football championship as strong as possible so it is a testing ground for potential county players..and 2)That every single player in the county, regardless of their club's level, have an opportunity to play in the Senior c'ship through the Divisional teams.
Now, for the last 2 years this has meant there has only been 8 club teams and 8 divisional teams in the Senior championship. In my own view, 8 clubs is too few and they are currently reviewing this situation. I think it's likely they will increase to 10 clubs and 8 divisions this year or next. I think that would be a better balance. There is currently 16 clubs in Intermediate, 16 in Premier Junior, 16 in Junior. There are no second teams allowed in these championships unlike other counties. They have separate competitions. I'm not sure how it is proposed to alter the number of clubs - perhaps a 10 - 16 - 16 - 14 split, but I'm not entirely sure.

In case it needs to be said again, there is zero connection between county league and a club's championship grade in Kerry. This often gets thrown out there as an argument - Gneeveguilla who won the Premier Junior (and Munster Junior) last year, won Division 2 of the league and are therefore promoted  to Div 1 for 2022. They beat Castleisland (an Intermediate club in 2021) in final. Na Gaeil, winners of Intermediate 2021, so Senior in 2022, are still in Division 2 below Gneeveguilla. League has no bearing or link to championship. Clubs play most league games without their county players, without players who spend summer on J1s etc (quite a decent number) so there are teams who do better than others in League.

Could keep typing but don't want to be very long winded..basically, the gradings are done for good reasons and even if there are 10 Senior clubs the Intermediate and Junior winners will still be strong. In Munster the strongest competition for Kerry clubs would usually be from Cork clubs, but they have a system for the last few years that has the winners of their 3rd tier championship entering Munster Intermediate and winners of 5th tier entering Munster Junior..hence, Kerry teams are largely winning the Inter and Junior football and often by large margins. The Cork situation needs changing and there is a proposal to rectify it being debated currently.

Anyway, as I've said before it's the way it's done down here. Divisional teams play in Cork SFC and should actually be very strong but are largely treated like sh*t, so haven't had very much success recently. A North Tipp combination won a Tipp SFC in last 10 years I know but I seem to recall there was a move to stop them playing thereafter?
Apart from that divisional teams don't seem to exist in many other places, when there would definitely be areas that could benefit from them surely..

Given the current split of clubs it would be much fairer if the premier junior champions entered the intermediate championship and the junior champions entered the junior championship. This would be the 25th best club and 41st best club out of a total of 56. The current situation of the 9th and 25th gives Kerry teams an unfair advantage. The change would make no difference to the internal club championships in Kerry.