Gaelic Football RIP

Started by High Fielder, July 21, 2018, 06:37:09 PM

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ONeill

Interesting discussion before the game at the weekend between Barney Rock, John Lynch, Noel McGinn and some Meath bollocks. They said their games were shite in the 80s and today's players are so much more skilful. Or words to that effect. Blamed over exposure on TV and the demand to be entertained when up against the soccer. Or words to that effect.
I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames.

Jinxy

Quote from: BennyHarp on July 24, 2018, 08:06:10 PM
Quote from: APM on July 24, 2018, 07:33:47 PM
Quote from: Kuwabatake Sanjuro on July 24, 2018, 07:16:57 PM
Quote from: APM on July 24, 2018, 04:16:09 PM
Don't always like everything he has to say, but Eamonn Sweeney is spot on here!

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/brolly-and-spillanes-critics-sound-like-10yearolds-trying-to-persuade-you-one-direction-are-better-than-the-beatles-37141581.html

The gormless conformists in sensible ganseys with their incessant blather about innovation and motivation and sports psychology, who love the current game because it's as dull as they are, like to scoff at Joe Brolly and Pat Spillane's repeated assertions that modern day Gaelic football is terrible. They come out with that laughable line about the game 'evolving'. But most big football games these days really are terrible. Brolly and Spillane's critics just sound like 10-year-olds trying to persuade you One Direction are better than The Beatles because they're 'more modern'. Insisting that something is good when it's not doesn't make you a positive thinker. It makes you an eejit.

There are plenty of these eejits about here and many of them take the view they are taking because they support the teams that are currently doing well.  If their own team was out of the championship and their interest was limited to that of a neutral observer, perhaps they would develop a bit more perspective.

QuoteNo other field sport could have produced something like the 15-minute spell near the end of last Saturday's Super 8 match when Dublin passed the ball back and forth (mainly back, not a lot of forth to be honest) without making any effort to score while Donegal made only cursory attempts to interrupt the routine.

I take it he is unaware of that Association Football game that is somewhat popular.

I agree, but who wants to benchmark the quality and entertainment of Gaelic Football as a spectator sport against Soccer. Would it not be preferable to measure it against football it in its prime, which for me say started in the late 80's / early 90's and last through to the end of the last decade (and I know there were some shit matches in the 90s too) - **edit** - or benchmark it against classic recent games - Kerry Mayo Semi-Final replay of 2016 in the Gaelic Grounds, even Sunday's Kerry Monaghan game.

Who wants to sing abuse at the opposing team and referee, or stupid songs about their favourite player to make up for the boring bits.  Let's minimise the boring bits!

What exactly does this utopia football look like? What exactly are these guys looking for in the game to make it acceptable?  Gaelic football is meant to be a fuckin war of attrition, a battle and then someone wins. Entertainment is just a positive by product. People talk about modernism -  it's jokers like Sweeney who want to modernise it into an entertainment sport to be watched, whilst posting on social media and eating carrots with hummus dip, who switch to another channel when the entertainment dips for 5 mins. Go back to the roots and the lads winning a junior B final 0-2 to 0-3 after 3 field fights won't care too much about entertainment. That dumbed down quote from Sweeney is patronising in the extreme - who is his his target market with a comparison like that? It isn't the average GAA guy anyway - so maybe that tells you a little about the substance of the article.. Actually, maybe the sooner Gaelic does return to the hoof ball of the 80s and 90s the better, because believe me people will turn off and when they do we will be left with people who still love the sport for what it is and whatever form it takes and maybe those seeking a thrilling pastime may move on to something else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASp4iINYFmE
If you were any use you'd be playing.

BennyHarp

#107
Quote from: smelmoth on July 24, 2018, 09:18:43 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on July 24, 2018, 08:06:10 PM
What exactly does this utopia football look like? What exactly are these guys looking for in the game to make it acceptable?  Gaelic football is meant to be a fuckin war of attrition, a battle and then someone wins. Entertainment is a positive by product. People talk about modernism -  it's jokers like Sweeney who want to turn it into an entertainment sport to be watched whilst posting on social media and eating carrots with hummus dip, who switch to another channel when the entertainment dips for 5 mins. Go back to the roots and the lads winning a junior B final 0-2 to 0-3 after 3 field fights won't care too much about entertainment. That dumbed down quote from Sweeney is patronising in the extreme - who is his his target market with a comparison like that? It isn't the average GAA guy anyway - so maybe that tells you a little about the substance of the article.. Actually, maybe the sooner Gaelic does return to the hoof ball of the 80s and 90s the better, because believe me people will turn off and when they do we will be left with people who still love the sport for what it is and whatever form it takes and maybe those seeking a thrilling pastime may move on to something else.

Frankly bullshit

Keep ball to run down the clock, side ways handpassing between unmarked players throughout the game, uncontested short kick outs, players turning their back on the play as soon as a ball is lost and running back into defensive positions and allowing the opponents to amble up the pitch with uncontested possession, free kick restarts played backwards to restart this uncontested possession. The game is riddled with these. Explain how they are entertaining? How are they battles in a war of attrition?

Entertainment is not supposed to be a by product. It's not a holy grail either at the altar of which everything else must be sacrificed. But if entertainment is not core to the game it dies. If the audience falls away from the elite level game participation everywhere falls.

Your hummus quips don't sit well with your disapproval of patronising language. But that is something for you to reconcile

Who is arguing for hoof ball??

If you claim to love Gaelic football no matter what form it takes then that leads to 2 unavoidable conclusions.
1. You would have no difficulty with changes others might want to make to improve the entertainment and
2. Perversely you don't actually love Gaelic football at all. You just love something called Gaelic football and indeed anything called Gaelic football.

By your argument if there was a 15 a side game without sweepers playing elite level field sport aiming to outscore the opposition in goals in points in 14 1 on 1 battles and keepers hitting it long with midfielders contesting the ball aerially and separately down the road the All Ireland football final was played between the Tralee Franchise and the Dungannon franchise where 90% of the passes were hand passes, 80% of the passes were sideways or backwards and both the passer and recipient were unmarked at the point of participation, 40% of the scores were frees and the other 60% were on the break that you would be watching the second game by virtue of the fact it was called Gaelic football

Not sure what your on about with that last paragraph but mostly I was referring to the article by Sweeney and this idea that Gaelic football should be all about entertainment. Gaelic football is about your village, town, parish or county coming together to win, over perform or cause an upset and represent the people of that area. It's much more tribal than entertainment. A junior championship winner couldn't care less if the lad from the neighbouring parish comments the next day "aye, but the game was a bag of shite". I played and managed teams in England for years, the standard was shite and the entertainment was pretty dire but it didn't stop 20 odd fellas turning up twice a week to take part and celebarate like lunatics when we won a championship. Go and tell the kids in Carlow that the entertainment their team was providing was shite. I wonder what the kids in Galway will think if they make a final -,"aye, it's great we're there but I'm not entertained".

I don't think the game is perfect.....but it never was. But I do see the positives these days like the emergence of a more complete footballer.... how many corner backs of the 80s could kick points like Philly McMahon, Micheal McKenan or Tom O'Sullivan last weekend? Im not even adverse to rule changes, but I'd like to see a tightening of, and better application of current rules before jumping head first with new rules. For example, I would like a team of full time professional referees to ref and officiate county games to try and achieve consistency. For the rest of their time they train refs up and down the country. I'd also make them accountable for their performances. I'd like to see the steps rule tightened up, maybe allow 5 steps but be strict, this might encourage the ball to be played or moved quicker. I'd like to see the tackle defined clearly, I wouldn't allow a second man to tackle the guy in possession, too often these days, players get surrounded and just can't move and get blown up. There's no skill in just getting numbers around a player so allowing only one tackler may limit the effectiveness of having numbers back. Consistent application of the current rules or tweaking the current rules may just shift the game to be a little bit faster.

What I do object to, is the suffocating self flagellatation that takes place around the game and people like Eamon Sweeney do not have the good or our game in mind when writing that piece. He's jumping on a populist bandwagon which I'm afraid will lead to rule changes that may just make the game even worse. Im of the view that unless we sort out the application of our current rules, adding more rules will just not improve things.
That was never a square ball!!

Mayo4Sam14

Quote from: Jinxy on July 24, 2018, 10:07:49 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on July 24, 2018, 08:06:10 PM
Quote from: APM on July 24, 2018, 07:33:47 PM
Quote from: Kuwabatake Sanjuro on July 24, 2018, 07:16:57 PM
Quote from: APM on July 24, 2018, 04:16:09 PM
Don't always like everything he has to say, but Eamonn Sweeney is spot on here!

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/brolly-and-spillanes-critics-sound-like-10yearolds-trying-to-persuade-you-one-direction-are-better-than-the-beatles-37141581.html

The gormless conformists in sensible ganseys with their incessant blather about innovation and motivation and sports psychology, who love the current game because it's as dull as they are, like to scoff at Joe Brolly and Pat Spillane's repeated assertions that modern day Gaelic football is terrible. They come out with that laughable line about the game 'evolving'. But most big football games these days really are terrible. Brolly and Spillane's critics just sound like 10-year-olds trying to persuade you One Direction are better than The Beatles because they're 'more modern'. Insisting that something is good when it's not doesn't make you a positive thinker. It makes you an eejit.

There are plenty of these eejits about here and many of them take the view they are taking because they support the teams that are currently doing well.  If their own team was out of the championship and their interest was limited to that of a neutral observer, perhaps they would develop a bit more perspective.

QuoteNo other field sport could have produced something like the 15-minute spell near the end of last Saturday's Super 8 match when Dublin passed the ball back and forth (mainly back, not a lot of forth to be honest) without making any effort to score while Donegal made only cursory attempts to interrupt the routine.

I take it he is unaware of that Association Football game that is somewhat popular.

I agree, but who wants to benchmark the quality and entertainment of Gaelic Football as a spectator sport against Soccer. Would it not be preferable to measure it against football it in its prime, which for me say started in the late 80's / early 90's and last through to the end of the last decade (and I know there were some shit matches in the 90s too) - **edit** - or benchmark it against classic recent games - Kerry Mayo Semi-Final replay of 2016 in the Gaelic Grounds, even Sunday's Kerry Monaghan game.

Who wants to sing abuse at the opposing team and referee, or stupid songs about their favourite player to make up for the boring bits.  Let's minimise the boring bits!

What exactly does this utopia football look like? What exactly are these guys looking for in the game to make it acceptable?  Gaelic football is meant to be a fuckin war of attrition, a battle and then someone wins. Entertainment is just a positive by product. People talk about modernism -  it's jokers like Sweeney who want to modernise it into an entertainment sport to be watched, whilst posting on social media and eating carrots with hummus dip, who switch to another channel when the entertainment dips for 5 mins. Go back to the roots and the lads winning a junior B final 0-2 to 0-3 after 3 field fights won't care too much about entertainment. That dumbed down quote from Sweeney is patronising in the extreme - who is his his target market with a comparison like that? It isn't the average GAA guy anyway - so maybe that tells you a little about the substance of the article.. Actually, maybe the sooner Gaelic does return to the hoof ball of the 80s and 90s the better, because believe me people will turn off and when they do we will be left with people who still love the sport for what it is and whatever form it takes and maybe those seeking a thrilling pastime may move on to something else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASp4iINYFmE

https://youtu.be/4RbEFKHxLlI
You can forget about Sean Cavanagh as far as he's a man!

Jinxy

If you were any use you'd be playing.


sid waddell

Quote from: Kuwabatake Sanjuro on July 24, 2018, 07:16:57 PM

QuoteNo other field sport could have produced something like the 15-minute spell near the end of last Saturday's Super 8 match when Dublin passed the ball back and forth (mainly back, not a lot of forth to be honest) without making any effort to score while Donegal made only cursory attempts to interrupt the routine.

I take it he is unaware of that Association Football game that is somewhat popular.
Exaggerating the fook of of something to the extent that it exposes the writer as a fantasist is a great Brollyism.

Yeah, Dublin played keep ball for 15 minutes, and Joe used to play in front of crowds of 15,000 in the first round of the Derry club championship. There would be 30,000 at the final. Every year. Without fail. Even though no stadium in Derry held more than 15k.

People should have a watch of what happens in Aussie Rules when teams "ice the clock" if they think Gaelic football is bad for teams keeping possession. Constant short marks that eat up way more time than any team could ever manage in Gaelic football. No way to get the ball back. Unlike in Gaelic football, where there is a very obvious option - you push up and tackle the opposition.

Rugby has a thing called "going through the phases". Low risk, go to ground, funnel the ball back and repeat in order to waste time, and boy can you waste time doing it. The Munster team of the last decade were absolute masters at it.

The last few minutes of NBA games almost always descend into a dirge of fouling and free throws.

Which is nothing compared to what happens in the NFL. American football is a sport that is based around time wasting.




smelmoth

Quote from: BennyHarp on July 24, 2018, 11:00:44 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on July 24, 2018, 09:18:43 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on July 24, 2018, 08:06:10 PM
What exactly does this utopia football look like? What exactly are these guys looking for in the game to make it acceptable?  Gaelic football is meant to be a fuckin war of attrition, a battle and then someone wins. Entertainment is a positive by product. People talk about modernism -  it's jokers like Sweeney who want to turn it into an entertainment sport to be watched whilst posting on social media and eating carrots with hummus dip, who switch to another channel when the entertainment dips for 5 mins. Go back to the roots and the lads winning a junior B final 0-2 to 0-3 after 3 field fights won't care too much about entertainment. That dumbed down quote from Sweeney is patronising in the extreme - who is his his target market with a comparison like that? It isn't the average GAA guy anyway - so maybe that tells you a little about the substance of the article.. Actually, maybe the sooner Gaelic does return to the hoof ball of the 80s and 90s the better, because believe me people will turn off and when they do we will be left with people who still love the sport for what it is and whatever form it takes and maybe those seeking a thrilling pastime may move on to something else.

Frankly bullshit

Keep ball to run down the clock, side ways handpassing between unmarked players throughout the game, uncontested short kick outs, players turning their back on the play as soon as a ball is lost and running back into defensive positions and allowing the opponents to amble up the pitch with uncontested possession, free kick restarts played backwards to restart this uncontested possession. The game is riddled with these. Explain how they are entertaining? How are they battles in a war of attrition?

Entertainment is not supposed to be a by product. It's not a holy grail either at the altar of which everything else must be sacrificed. But if entertainment is not core to the game it dies. If the audience falls away from the elite level game participation everywhere falls.

Your hummus quips don't sit well with your disapproval of patronising language. But that is something for you to reconcile

Who is arguing for hoof ball??

If you claim to love Gaelic football no matter what form it takes then that leads to 2 unavoidable conclusions.
1. You would have no difficulty with changes others might want to make to improve the entertainment and
2. Perversely you don't actually love Gaelic football at all. You just love something called Gaelic football and indeed anything called Gaelic football.

By your argument if there was a 15 a side game without sweepers playing elite level field sport aiming to outscore the opposition in goals in points in 14 1 on 1 battles and keepers hitting it long with midfielders contesting the ball aerially and separately down the road the All Ireland football final was played between the Tralee Franchise and the Dungannon franchise where 90% of the passes were hand passes, 80% of the passes were sideways or backwards and both the passer and recipient were unmarked at the point of participation, 40% of the scores were frees and the other 60% were on the break that you would be watching the second game by virtue of the fact it was called Gaelic football

Not sure what your on about with that last paragraph but mostly I was referring to the article by Sweeney and this idea that Gaelic football should be all about entertainment. Gaelic football is about your village, town, parish or county coming together to win, over perform or cause an upset and represent the people of that area. It's much more tribal than entertainment. A junior championship winner couldn't care less if the lad from the neighbouring parish comments the next day "aye, but the game was a bag of shite". I played and managed teams in England for years, the standard was shite and the entertainment was pretty dire but it didn't stop 20 odd fellas turning up twice a week to take part and celebarate like lunatics when we won a championship. Go and tell the kids in Carlow that the entertainment their team was providing was shite. I wonder what the kids in Galway will think if they make a final -,"aye, it's great we're there but I'm not entertained".

I don't think the game is perfect.....but it never was. But I do see the positives these days like the emergence of a more complete footballer.... how many corner backs of the 80s could kick points like Philly McMahon, Micheal McKenan or Tom O'Sullivan last weekend? Im not even adverse to rule changes, but I'd like to see a tightening of, and better application of current rules before jumping head first with new rules. For example, I would like a team of full time professional referees to ref and officiate county games to try and achieve consistency. For the rest of their time they train refs up and down the country. I'd also make them accountable for their performances. I'd like to see the steps rule tightened up, maybe allow 5 steps but be strict, this might encourage the ball to be played or moved quicker. I'd like to see the tackle defined clearly, I wouldn't allow a second man to tackle the guy in possession, too often these days, players get surrounded and just can't move and get blown up. There's no skill in just getting numbers around a player so allowing only one tackler may limit the effectiveness of having numbers back. Consistent application of the current rules or tweaking the current rules may just shift the game to be a little bit faster.

What I do object to, is the suffocating self flagellatation that takes place around the game and people like Eamon Sweeney do not have the good or our game in mind when writing that piece. He's jumping on a populist bandwagon which I'm afraid will lead to rule changes that may just make the game even worse. Im of the view that unless we sort out the application of our current rules, adding more rules will just not improve things.

My last paragraph follows the logical conclusion of your argument.

GAA is not actually all about your club/parish/village. Club GAA should and is about that. Inter County GAA could never be about that. I'm from Armagh. I have attended or watched 7 of the 8 super 8 games thus far. I've watched all the live hurling games thus far. My club, parish, village and indeed county have played in none of those games. This is true for the majority of the total audience. So your argument is not correct but it CANNOT be correct.

How many corner backs in the 80s played with a sweeper in front of him? Your upside only analysis falls at the first hurdle. It has no merit.

Your ref idea might have merit. The steps, tackle and second man in ideas are on the money. Your argument on crowd defending is the essence of the problem and I completely agree with you.

I know little of Sweeney so have no idea of his intentions. But some of the people worried about modern football and the direction it's going so best to engage in the argument rather than focusing on who it is you're arguing with

APM

Quote from: smelmoth on July 25, 2018, 07:52:36 PMI know little of Sweeney so have no idea of his intentions. But some of the people worried about modern football and the direction it's going so best to engage in the argument rather than focusing on who it is you're arguing with

On the money!! Attack the messenger rather that debate the message. 

RedHand88

Quote from: dec on July 24, 2018, 08:03:19 PM
The average number of scores per game in the Super 8s so far is 32.25

In 2001 and 2002 in the equivalent stage (quarter final and replays) the average number of scores per game was 23.5 and 27.5

If there is much more negativity now it is not showing up on the score board

Agreed. If a team scored 4-24 in the 90s or early 00s, any team, it would be talked about for years. Nobody seems to care now.

mrdeeds

It seems some lads just want it drove in ta feck.

seafoid

Quote from: RedHand88 on July 26, 2018, 01:19:05 PM
Quote from: dec on July 24, 2018, 08:03:19 PM
The average number of scores per game in the Super 8s so far is 32.25

In 2001 and 2002 in the equivalent stage (quarter final and replays) the average number of scores per game was 23.5 and 27.5

If there is much more negativity now it is not showing up on the score board

Agreed. If a team scored 4-24 in the 90s or early 00s, any team, it would be talked about for years. Nobody seems to care now.
It depends on what the average margin is
High scores may not be shangri la
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

trailer

Football now is more entertaining than it ever was. Good defending is an art. If you understand the game, understand what teams are trying to achieve, you will enjoy the match. Unfortunately some people just haven't that ability. They are Brexit voters, they want something different but they don't know what it is, or how to get it, but they want it.
They're just really confused and upset that one team just won't kick the ball away to give the other team ago. U-8 football would suit them better. Everyone is a winner, everyone is great, everyone gets a go, and everyone gets a medal, a drink and a packet of crisps.

Jinxy

Quote from: trailer on July 26, 2018, 01:46:43 PM
Football now is more entertaining than it ever was. Good defending is an art. If you understand the game, understand what teams are trying to achieve, you will enjoy the match. Unfortunately some people just haven't that ability. They are Brexit voters, they want something different but they don't know what it is, or how to get it, but they want it.
They're just really confused and upset that one team just won't kick the ball away to give the other team ago. U-8 football would suit them better. Everyone is a winner, everyone is great, everyone gets a go, and everyone gets a medal, a drink and a packet of crisps.

It was at one time.
Now, it's a science.
If you were any use you'd be playing.

dec

Quote from: Rossfan on July 25, 2018, 01:32:57 AM
https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/poll-would-awarding-two-points-for-a-long-range-score-help-to-combat-the-blanket-defence-in-gaelic-football-37149369.html

I don't think this is a good idea. If a player has the ability to score a point from distance they will do so. There is a cliche in the game "take your points, goals will come". This arose from the tendency of some forwards to waste a scoring opportunity by trying for a goal that wasn't on and turning down a makeable point. A 2 point line would encourage players to try long range shots when the better option would be to advance the ball either for a better scoring chance for themselves or passing to a better placed teammate.