Hurling 2024

Started by seafoid, January 01, 2023, 08:24:25 PM

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seafoid

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/03/16/ciaran-murphy-what-can-we-do-with-the-league-to-make-it-matter-again/

Jamie Wall, well-known hurling analyst and coach of the Mary Immaculate College Fitzgibbon Cup team, wasn't long in giving me some well-intentioned feedback. Instead of making the Munster and Leinster group stages home and away, as I had suggested, Jamie wanted to draw up two conferences of seven teams each, starting in March.

They would be drawn up from scratch each year, with teams from both provinces evenly divided to ensure that each conference remains even and competitive, and to ensure that counties keep playing as many different teams as possible.

Teams play each other home and away. The top three teams in each group would qualify for the All-Ireland championship. The winners of the two conferences would qualify for the All-Ireland semi-finals, and the teams placed second and third would play All-Ireland quarter-finals.


Limerick manager John Kiely and Galway manager Henry Shefflin shake hands after their Allianz Hurling League Division 1 Group A game at Pearse Stadium in Galway on February 26th. Photograph: Tom Maher/Inpho
You will have some questions, I'm sure, primarily perhaps about the status of the Munster and Leinster championships. Jamie's answer to that was ingenious. It takes three weekends to play off the two provincial championships. So if the conference group games start in March, you sprinkle in the provincial championship games like the FA Cup throughout a Premier League season.

You play the quarter-finals of the provincial championships on the May bank holiday weekend. You play the semi-finals on the June bank holiday weekend. And you play the provincial finals at the start of July between the All-Ireland quarter- and semi-finals.

They're not linked to the All-Ireland championship at all, but they remain important, knock-out competitions in their own right, with teams out of the running for the All-Ireland able to regain a measure of success from the year with a provincial final win. And those games would redress the balance between knock-out games, which we all grew up watching and admiring, and the league play of the two conferences.


[ The only certainty about the hurling league is that it is providing lots of uncertainty ]

The reason for seven teams? That was illustrated most effectively just last weekend.

In Division 1B Antrim and Laois had one game they had to win to avoid relegation: the game against each other. Antrim had home advantage for it, and that might have been the deciding factor. If there are two seven-team conferences (instead of the six-team divisions in the league), then their season, and Laois's season, and that of whoever else can force their way in, will not depend on beating the one other "weak" team in their vicinity, or indeed on the vagaries of being at home or away for that one fixture.

The five Munster counties, plus Galway, Kilkenny and Wexford, are currently a cut above. But would any of the teams named above be afraid of an awful trimming from Dublin at the moment? Depending on whether you put Dublin above or below that line, you're looking at either six or five teams in the category of "development" teams.

They would take a few beatings, but they would also get a chance to play at least four games against teams they would fancy beating. And they'd be a part of the big show. The bottom teams in each group would play a relegation playoff, and one team would be promoted.

Seven-team conferences would necessitate an early March start, and maybe a late July finish. If that was too tight (keeping in mind every team in a seven-team league would have two bye weeks), then even six-team conferences would be worth experimenting with. Anything but what we've been watching recently.

People who would try to tell you that the league isn't in such a bad shape might tell you to look at the crowds this year, which on the main have continued to look fairly healthy. I'd be inclined to say that if they'll turn out for this sham, imagine how interested they'd be in hurling that actually mattered in spring?
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

johnnycool

There's a lot of good in what Jamie says but it won't happen purely on the basis of the vested interests of the Munster and Leinster councils giving up their cash cows, it ain't going to happen.

Sometimes the hurling elite have no interest in developing hurling outside their own wee cabal.


marty34

Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2023, 08:20:08 AM
There's a lot of good in what Jamie says but it won't happen purely on the basis of the vested interests of the Munster and Leinster councils giving up their cash cows, it ain't going to happen.

Sometimes the hurling elite have no interest in developing hurling outside their own wee cabal.

Like the Ulster football provincial.

Not sure if it up to Munster and Leinster though.

It starts with clubs and more importantly, counties.


johnnycool

Quote from: marty34 on March 20, 2023, 08:43:31 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2023, 08:20:08 AM
There's a lot of good in what Jamie says but it won't happen purely on the basis of the vested interests of the Munster and Leinster councils giving up their cash cows, it ain't going to happen.

Sometimes the hurling elite have no interest in developing hurling outside their own wee cabal.

Like the Ulster football provincial.

Not sure if it up to Munster and Leinster though.

It starts with clubs and more importantly, counties.

This is how it works within the GAA, delegates, county secretaries will be put under pressure by being told "vote this way or you can say goodbye to your GDO's" or some other grant/incentive will be applied..

The development of hurling has been left to the hurling elite yet we're shocked to see that the gap isn't closing between them and the "developing" counties.


Milltown Row2

Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2023, 09:07:56 AM
Quote from: marty34 on March 20, 2023, 08:43:31 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2023, 08:20:08 AM
There's a lot of good in what Jamie says but it won't happen purely on the basis of the vested interests of the Munster and Leinster councils giving up their cash cows, it ain't going to happen.

Sometimes the hurling elite have no interest in developing hurling outside their own wee cabal.

Like the Ulster football provincial.

Not sure if it up to Munster and Leinster though.

It starts with clubs and more importantly, counties.

This is how it works within the GAA, delegates, county secretaries will be put under pressure by being told "vote this way or you can say goodbye to your GDO's" or some other grant/incentive will be applied..

The development of hurling has been left to the hurling elite yet we're shocked to see that the gap isn't closing between them and the "developing" counties.

Counties have to develop more club players and more senior teams to a certain level and that buck to a point stops with clubs and how they develop their kids. These commitments are the same for kids in Cork and Down at club level, what happens when they hit the age of 14? How does that gap start to grow to a point that can't be matched again?

Are we looking at schools hurling development? Club development, lack of effort, kids falling out of interest and so on? What are the likes of Tipp doing to keep the standards high from those ages up? Physicality is another thing too but there has been conversations do you start looking at size rather than skill then improve those big lads skill levels as we move on?
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

marty34

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 20, 2023, 10:16:14 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2023, 09:07:56 AM
Quote from: marty34 on March 20, 2023, 08:43:31 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2023, 08:20:08 AM
There's a lot of good in what Jamie says but it won't happen purely on the basis of the vested interests of the Munster and Leinster councils giving up their cash cows, it ain't going to happen.

Sometimes the hurling elite have no interest in developing hurling outside their own wee cabal.

Like the Ulster football provincial.

Not sure if it up to Munster and Leinster though.

It starts with clubs and more importantly, counties.

This is how it works within the GAA, delegates, county secretaries will be put under pressure by being told "vote this way or you can say goodbye to your GDO's" or some other grant/incentive will be applied..

The development of hurling has been left to the hurling elite yet we're shocked to see that the gap isn't closing between them and the "developing" counties.

Counties have to develop more club players and more senior teams to a certain level and that buck to a point stops with clubs and how they develop their kids. These commitments are the same for kids in Cork and Down at club level, what happens when they hit the age of 14? How does that gap start to grow to a point that can't be matched again?

Are we looking at schools hurling development? Club development, lack of effort, kids falling out of interest and so on? What are the likes of Tipp doing to keep the standards high from those ages up? Physicality is another thing too but there has been conversations do you start looking at size rather than skill then improve those big lads skill levels as we move on?

It'd be good to see the breakdown of hurling clubs in each county. 

At senior level and underage level.

clonadmad

Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2023, 09:07:56 AM
Quote from: marty34 on March 20, 2023, 08:43:31 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2023, 08:20:08 AM
There's a lot of good in what Jamie says but it won't happen purely on the basis of the vested interests of the Munster and Leinster councils giving up their cash cows, it ain't going to happen.

Sometimes the hurling elite have no interest in developing hurling outside their own wee cabal.

Like the Ulster football provincial.

Not sure if it up to Munster and Leinster though.

It starts with clubs and more importantly, counties.

This is how it works within the GAA, delegates, county secretaries will be put under pressure by being told "vote this way or you can say goodbye to your GDO's" or some other grant/incentive will be applied..

The development of hurling has been left to the hurling elite yet we're shocked to see that the gap isn't closing between them and the "developing" counties.


there's been no director of Hurling appointed since Martin Fogarty left the post on the 23/12/21

but yeah blame the hurling "elite"

who ever they are

clonadmad

Hurling Registered Playing Population

Cork (25,600)
Tipperary (14,260)
Dublin (13,980)
Galway (12,520)
Kilkenny (10,080)
Limerick (9,980)

if You want to win an All Ireland, Chances are you will need over 9k registered Players

131 Hurling Clubs in the Whole of Ulster v 210 in Cork alone

johnnycool

Quote from: clonadmad on March 20, 2023, 01:19:33 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2023, 09:07:56 AM
Quote from: marty34 on March 20, 2023, 08:43:31 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2023, 08:20:08 AM
There's a lot of good in what Jamie says but it won't happen purely on the basis of the vested interests of the Munster and Leinster councils giving up their cash cows, it ain't going to happen.

Sometimes the hurling elite have no interest in developing hurling outside their own wee cabal.

Like the Ulster football provincial.

Not sure if it up to Munster and Leinster though.

It starts with clubs and more importantly, counties.

This is how it works within the GAA, delegates, county secretaries will be put under pressure by being told "vote this way or you can say goodbye to your GDO's" or some other grant/incentive will be applied..

The development of hurling has been left to the hurling elite yet we're shocked to see that the gap isn't closing between them and the "developing" counties.


there's been no director of Hurling appointed since Martin Fogarty left the post on the 23/12/21

but yeah blame the hurling "elite"

who ever they are

Why, what did Martin do during his tenure that I missed?

clonadmad

Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2023, 02:17:06 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on March 20, 2023, 01:19:33 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2023, 09:07:56 AM
Quote from: marty34 on March 20, 2023, 08:43:31 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2023, 08:20:08 AM
There's a lot of good in what Jamie says but it won't happen purely on the basis of the vested interests of the Munster and Leinster councils giving up their cash cows, it ain't going to happen.

Sometimes the hurling elite have no interest in developing hurling outside their own wee cabal.

Like the Ulster football provincial.

Not sure if it up to Munster and Leinster though.

It starts with clubs and more importantly, counties.

This is how it works within the GAA, delegates, county secretaries will be put under pressure by being told "vote this way or you can say goodbye to your GDO's" or some other grant/incentive will be applied..

The development of hurling has been left to the hurling elite yet we're shocked to see that the gap isn't closing between them and the "developing" counties.


there's been no director of Hurling appointed since Martin Fogarty left the post on the 23/12/21

but yeah blame the hurling "elite"

who ever they are

Why, what did Martin do during his tenure that I missed?

well done on missing my point

As for the Hurling Elites you keep mentioning

Who are they ?

johnnycool

Quote from: clonadmad on March 20, 2023, 02:31:17 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2023, 02:17:06 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on March 20, 2023, 01:19:33 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2023, 09:07:56 AM
Quote from: marty34 on March 20, 2023, 08:43:31 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2023, 08:20:08 AM
There's a lot of good in what Jamie says but it won't happen purely on the basis of the vested interests of the Munster and Leinster councils giving up their cash cows, it ain't going to happen.

Sometimes the hurling elite have no interest in developing hurling outside their own wee cabal.

Like the Ulster football provincial.

Not sure if it up to Munster and Leinster though.

It starts with clubs and more importantly, counties.

This is how it works within the GAA, delegates, county secretaries will be put under pressure by being told "vote this way or you can say goodbye to your GDO's" or some other grant/incentive will be applied..

The development of hurling has been left to the hurling elite yet we're shocked to see that the gap isn't closing between them and the "developing" counties.


there's been no director of Hurling appointed since Martin Fogarty left the post on the 23/12/21

but yeah blame the hurling "elite"

who ever they are

Why, what did Martin do during his tenure that I missed?

well done on missing my point

As for the Hurling Elites you keep mentioning

Who are they ?

They are those lads from the traditional hurling counties who sit on committees allegedly to develop hurling but only ever come up with proposals to solidify their own counties position or think that what works in Tipp will work in Meath or Kildare..

Ever ask why the CR and Nicky Rackard finals are no longer on before the Liam McCarthy semi-finals? Even wonder why the current league format came about rather than the previous Div1A and Div1B's of 8 teams?


The Premierview Podcast

Quote from: johnnycool on March 21, 2023, 09:38:31 AM
Quote from: clonadmad on March 20, 2023, 02:31:17 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2023, 02:17:06 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on March 20, 2023, 01:19:33 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2023, 09:07:56 AM
Quote from: marty34 on March 20, 2023, 08:43:31 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2023, 08:20:08 AM
There's a lot of good in what Jamie says but it won't happen purely on the basis of the vested interests of the Munster and Leinster councils giving up their cash cows, it ain't going to happen.

Sometimes the hurling elite have no interest in developing hurling outside their own wee cabal.

Like the Ulster football provincial.

Not sure if it up to Munster and Leinster though.

It starts with clubs and more importantly, counties.

This is how it works within the GAA, delegates, county secretaries will be put under pressure by being told "vote this way or you can say goodbye to your GDO's" or some other grant/incentive will be applied..

The development of hurling has been left to the hurling elite yet we're shocked to see that the gap isn't closing between them and the "developing" counties.


there's been no director of Hurling appointed since Martin Fogarty left the post on the 23/12/21

but yeah blame the hurling "elite"

who ever they are

Why, what did Martin do during his tenure that I missed?

well done on missing my point

As for the Hurling Elites you keep mentioning

Who are they ?

They are those lads from the traditional hurling counties who sit on committees allegedly to develop hurling but only ever come up with proposals to solidify their own counties position or think that what works in Tipp will work in Meath or Kildare..

Ever ask why the CR and Nicky Rackard finals are no longer on before the Liam McCarthy semi-finals? Even wonder why the current league format came about rather than the previous Div1A and Div1B's of 8 teams?

The Lads that sit on Hurling Development Committees can only make Recommendations

They cant  force anything through

As regards the downgrading of the lower grade Hurling Competitions, that was done at Central Council Level and not by any Hurling Committee which you seem to have such enmity towards

Liam Griffin put a proposal to Congress recently with regard to every Club having to have a u7/u9 Hurling Team, It was shot down in Flames

What way did your County vote?

You could do a lot worse than learn from the traditional counties as to what works and what doesn't.


The Premierview Podcast

Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2023, 08:20:08 AM
There's a lot of good in what Jamie says but it won't happen purely on the basis of the vested interests of the Munster and Leinster councils giving up their cash cows, it ain't going to happen.

Sometimes the hurling elite have no interest in developing hurling outside their own wee cabal.

the Munster Hurling Championship has nearly double the attendance of its next nearest Provincial Competition, which is the Ulster Football Championship

No one is going to wreck that competition for the sake of Counties who cant get their act together for the past 140 years

seafoid

Change has to come from the top down.
The history of modern hurling is the history of dragging out concessions from the old firm.
They always used skill as a barrier to entry.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

The Premierview Podcast

Quote from: seafoid on March 21, 2023, 10:31:32 AM
Change has to come from the top down.
The history of modern hurling is the history of dragging out concessions from the old firm.
They always used skill as a barrier to entry.

Another Lad that doesnt know how things work

Change or Concessions as you like to call them are brought about by votes in Congress where Delegates from every County vote for or against proposals brought forward by a club

Thats how your Minors ended up in the Leinster Championship this year.

Theres a reason why Counties are weak and it starts and ends with those Counties

Start with your own house before blaming those who are doing things right in theirs