What would you call a second tier Competition?

[AZOffaly]

I know the Tipperary situation, and I can guarantee you there is zero appetite to be in a second or third tier competition. Declan Browne won that competition in a different era for Tipp. You'd be cutting the legs from underneath the work that's being done here.

Of course the division 4 teams are going to get beaten, there's a reason they are in division 4, but that's no reason to stop them entering the championship if they want to.

And as for the minor competitions in hurling, can you name off the top of your head the 6 finalists? Be honest. I probably could with a good bit of thought, but I certainly can't rattle them off. Is there any evidence to suggest that the game of hurling is thriving in any of those counties as a result of their participation and winning this?

I suspect Sligo beating Roscommon a couple of weeks ago is a bigger boon to the GAA in Sligo than winning a third tier competition would be.

[twohands!!!]

I know the Tipperary situation, and I can guarantee you there is zero appetite to be in a second or third tier competition. Declan Browne won that competition in a different era for Tipp. You'd be cutting the legs from underneath the work that's being done here.

Of course the division 4 teams are going to get beaten, there's a reason they are in division 4, but that's no reason to stop them entering the championship if they want to.

And as for the minor competitions in hurling, can you name off the top of your head the 6 finalists? Be honest. I probably could with a good bit of thought, but I certainly can't rattle them off. Is there any evidence to suggest that the game of hurling is thriving in any of those counties as a result of their participation and winning this?

I suspect Sligo beating Roscommon a couple of weeks ago is a bigger boon to the GAA in Sligo than winning a third tier competition would be.

I mentioned Declan Browne because you were putting forward the argument that players would have no appetite from playing in a lesser competition.

The structure of the lesser hurling competitions aren't going to be a magic fix for sides - hard graft in terms of developing players is still going to be the big driver for success but at least they get sides who want to develop a roadmap.
However imagine the hurling championship had the same structure as the football championship what sort of a disaster of a state the game would be in nationwide - imagine you had lads from say Kerry who were in the Munster championship and taking a hammering year after year. Hurling might not be thriving in these lesser counties but I'd imagine the situation is far better than if sides were in a similar place to where the Division 4 teams are in football, especially given it's even easier for a better team to hand out a walloping in hurling due to the different scoring rates.

Anyway Central Council has asked from submission from various county boards, so I would imagine we'll be hearing more on this before too long.

[Esmarelda]

I think requests were sent out to county boards in the last while with a view to getting proposals from them in time for the next congress meeting some time next month.

[AZOffaly]

I know the Tipperary situation, and I can guarantee you there is zero appetite to be in a second or third tier competition. Declan Browne won that competition in a different era for Tipp. You'd be cutting the legs from underneath the work that's being done here.

Of course the division 4 teams are going to get beaten, there's a reason they are in division 4, but that's no reason to stop them entering the championship if they want to.

And as for the minor competitions in hurling, can you name off the top of your head the 6 finalists? Be honest. I probably could with a good bit of thought, but I certainly can't rattle them off. Is there any evidence to suggest that the game of hurling is thriving in any of those counties as a result of their participation and winning this?

I suspect Sligo beating Roscommon a couple of weeks ago is a bigger boon to the GAA in Sligo than winning a third tier competition would be.

I mentioned Declan Browne because you were putting forward the argument that players would have no appetite from playing in a lesser competition.

The structure of the lesser hurling competitions aren't going to be a magic fix for sides - hard graft in terms of developing players is still going to be the big driver for success but at least they get sides who want to develop a roadmap.
However imagine the hurling championship had the same structure as the football championship what sort of a disaster of a state the game would be in nationwide - imagine you had lads from say Kerry who were in the Munster championship and taking a hammering year after year. Hurling might not be thriving in these lesser counties but I'd imagine the situation is far better than if sides were in a similar place to where the Division 4 teams are in football, especially given it's even easier for a better team to hand out a walloping in hurling due to the different scoring rates.

Anyway Central Council has asked from submission from various county boards, so I would imagine we'll be hearing more on this before too long.

What Division 4 football teams are you thinking of? Offaly, Longford, Antrim were in Division 4. All 3 would be murdered by Dublin, but I don't think that means any of them don't want to play in the proper championship.  As I said, if you are breaking it up because of hammerings Dublin are dishing out, then you are going to have a small championship eventually.

It seems the real problem is the hammerings Carlow took from Laois, and Waterford took from Tipp/Offaly, and London took from Cavan. In which case we are really saying restructure the whole thing, and rob Sligo, Antrim and Wexford the chance of a day in the sun, just so you don't have to look at Waterford, London and Carlow in the championship. That's harsh, and I don't think it's necessary.

Some lads won't be happy until the top 8 are playing each other in a round robin competition, and the rest are off doing whatever until they are good enough to sit with such exhalted company. Be careful what you wish for. People have to dream. And dreaming of a Junior Championship is not something on many lads agenda I'd imagine.

[deiseach]

Hey, Ireland won that Iceland Tri Angular thing!

Ah, memories of when Aldo couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo.

[deiseach]

I don't think there are many lessons for football to be drawn one way or another from the Ring/Rackard/Meagher Cups. Most of the counties in those competitions have never competed for the MacCarthy Cup. You couldn't annoy them by asking them to compete in a second-string competition because they were never in the big dance in the first place. It would be nice as well if people would stop using Waterford as the poster child for Everything That Is Wrong with the current setup. The problems we have are of our own making. No amount of jiggery-pokery with the championship format is going to make us competitive in the absence of us doing the work ourselves. Work, it should be added, that I thought we were doing with a few championship wins in recent years and a run in Division 3 in which we were unlucky to be relegated. Looking for a system that will help make Waterford competitive is a fool's errand.

[AZOffaly]

I don't think there are many lessons for football to be drawn one way or another from the Ring/Rackard/Meagher Cups. Most of the counties in those competitions have never competed for the MacCarthy Cup. You couldn't annoy them by asking them to compete in a second-string competition because they were never in the big dance in the first place. It would be nice as well if people would stop using Waterford as the poster child for Everything That Is Wrong with the current setup. The problems we have are of our own making. No amount of jiggery-pokery with the championship format is going to make us competitive in the absence of us doing the work ourselves. Work, it should be added, that I thought we were doing with a few championship wins in recent years and a run in Division 3 in which we were unlucky to be relegated. Looking for a system that will help make Waterford competitive is a fool's errand.

Exactly. Other than a system which stops them playing at all, or consigns them to some inconsequential neighbourhood where they won't bother the illustrious neighbours. If they want to play in the Championship, let them play.

[screenexile]

But surely if a second tier competition has the opportunity of entering the main championship at some stage that would allow the likes of Tipperary and the teams on the up a chance to get back in. Even some kind of promotion/relegation from year to year would mean that teams who are making strides still get a chance to have a go at the big boys.

Also would this not be better for a team like Tipp to have more games building momentum and confidence rather than having a first/second match every year against Cork/Kerry and slumping to a 6-10 point defeat!!

[AZOffaly]

Slumping to a 6 point defeat? At least you know where you are in relation to Kerry, and you have that a realistic target.

But I don't think the problem is Tipp, or the likes of Tipp. I think what people are trying to stop is Dublin beating all around them in Leinster, and Waterford, Carlow and London getting a hammering.

Do we really want to change everything just for that?

As I said, we'd be giving up days like Antrim in Portlaoise, Wexford v Down and Sligo v Roscommon. Do we really want to do that?

[deiseach]

In a 16 team competition you're still going to have the number one seed beating the living tar out of the team ranked 16th. As several people have pointed out, would we have an eight team competition then?

And here's the thing. If you really think a 16 team All-Ireland is better because you will have fewer mismatches stinking up the place, that's fine. Just don't pretend or delude yourself that it's for the benefit of the Waterfords of this world.

[AZOffaly]

I think you're misreading it deiseach. I don't think people give a shite about Waterford, Carlow or London, or anyone else. The people advocating a split championship want to see games between the best teams. As I've said, what they really want is not to see Dublin hammer teams, or not to see other teams hammer the three I mentioned.

It's a big shift to change championship format because of that. Some of the best games are between Division 2 and 3 teams. Remember Westmeath are Division 3 next year, Meath are Division 2. They'd be kept apart next year altogether in a 2 tier championship. Kildare would also be languishing in the second tier championship. Not to mention poor Wexford, a 2016 Division 4 team beating Down a 2016 Division 1 team.

We're considering changes largely because of what an exceptional Dublin are doing in Leinster, and to be honest they'd do the same thing to about 20-25 teams in the country at this stage.

[armaghniac]

Perhaps we could have 3 bands?

counties with less than 60,000 people
counties with 60,00- 600,000
counties with > 600,000

[twohands!!!]

I think you're misreading it deiseach. I don't think people give a shite about Waterford, Carlow or London, or anyone else. The people advocating a split championship want to see games between the best teams. As I've said, what they really want is not to see Dublin hammer teams, or not to see other teams hammer the three I mentioned.

Yup - none of this is coming from the teams themselves 

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/football/brudair-give-basement-teams-a-b-championship-332260.html

http://www.carlow-nationalist.ie/2015/06/17/the-forum-clubs-show-support-for-second-tier/

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=219651

[AZOffaly]

I'm not saying there isn't some support for this, obviously there is. Just as someone involved a little bit, I know there's a huge difference in profile and ambition when you start introducing divisions like that. Everyone wants the shot at the big lads, in my experience. I'm all for incremental improvement, and interim goals, believe me, but I still want to be at the dance, even if I am an ugly f**ker.

[Esmarelda]

I think you're misreading it deiseach. I don't think people give a shite about Waterford, Carlow or London, or anyone else. The people advocating a split championship want to see games between the best teams. As I've said, what they really want is not to see Dublin hammer teams, or not to see other teams hammer the three I mentioned.

Yup - none of this is coming from the teams themselves 

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/football/brudair-give-basement-teams-a-b-championship-332260.html

http://www.carlow-nationalist.ie/2015/06/17/the-forum-clubs-show-support-for-second-tier/

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=219651

While not discounting the three stories you've quoted, I don't see (from skim reading them admittedly) and consultation with the players of the three counties. I think it would be a major mistake for any new proposals to go through with this consultation.

All of us are looking at this from a spectator point of view. If the lower ranked teams' players want to compete in the All-Ireland series as it is then they should be allowed, in my opinion.

That is why I look forward to what the GPA brings back from its discussion with its members.

Personally, as I've stated before, I have a feeling that players from these counties may entertain a second and third tier competition as a preliminary route to the All-Ireland series in the same year.