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Only thing for sure is that there are no winners, but hopefully justice is service.

As I said before, it is hard to see how you can prove something 20 years ago beyond reasonable doubt, I doubt there were witnesses other than his wife.

Hearing other cases the PPS didn't prosecute due unlikelihood of conviction even when there is evidence, they must feel there's a high chance of conviction based on what ever evidence they have. No?

I've no idea myself - I'm doing a lot of reading between the lines and may well be getting it wrong.

Today was the 1st appearance. I'd be shocked if the PPS even have the full file yet let alone have made a decision. It would be unusual for them to have the full file yet particularly if the allegations only surfaced in March.

So does that mean the PPS could still decide not prosecute?
I've no idea how these things work, I'd made the assumption it only gets this far if the PPS are already in a position to prosecute.
Interesting.

Police once they arrest someone can question them for a total period of initially 24 hours before they must release them without charge or charge them.  That time can be extended firstly by senior by police officers and then by courts.  Until that time is used up police can release upon pre charge bail in order to gather further evidence but conditions are largely unenforceable (not going into the details of that here not really relevant).   Once police believe they have sufficient evidence to establish a prime facie case they can charge.  Alternatively they can release for report.  Neither way suggests the evidence is any stronger or weaker than the other it more comes down to the perceived necessity by police for bail conditions and/or a remand.  The reason some are charged is essentially that police believe there a likelihood of reoffending if not charged, is there a likelihood of interference with witnesses or is there a likelihood of absconding.  Rarely there may be other reasons for charging such as to uphold public confidence but these are rare.

If an individual is charged they can be kept to the next remand court (the next day or two if its over a holiday or weekend) if PSNI feel that remand is necessary to meet the above.   Or they can be released on post charge bail by the custody sergeant who will set a date within 28 days for a defendant to appear at court and will set bail conditions.  That is what happened in this case.

After charge PSNI will continue to gather evidence and collate the already gathered evidence in order to submit a file to the PPS.  Once a file is received it will be allocated to a suitably qualified prosecutor who will review the file and if necessary request the police to gather further evidence.  Once the PPS have a full file they will decide whether to prosecute and what charges are to be prosecuted and where they are to be prosecuted.

Asking how long that process will last is like asking how long is a piece of string.  I recently had a fast tracked one that took 14 months but I've had ones take anything from 4 months to 3 years.  It depends on the amount of evidence, the quality, the likelihood of getting more, how busy the directing officer is, how busy the investigating officer is etc etc.

With a charge sheet case the court will keep under review how long things are taking.  Had the case been taken for report then its simply a case of when PPS can get round to it, but defendants aren't on bail in report cases. 

Statistically report cases have a higher conviction rate but a lower decision to prosecute rate but there's very little difference.

Ultimately all cases investigated by police are sent to PPS for decision.  A lot never see the light of day, some get dropped after being charged and others get prosecuted the whole way to trial.  At this moment nothing has happened that I am aware of that could lead to any proper conclusions on the strength of the evidence and we would simply be speculating.

A simple "the PPS might decide not to prosecute" would have sufficed.     
Thanks for that - definitely an education for me on the process.
All the more reason for people not to jump to conclusions at this stage of things I guess as anything could happen.

I didn't see the Derry/Donegal match, but I am seriously impressed by any team allegedly out played who's best players were stymied but still managed 17 points. Goals win games but can be prevented. it was 15 scores to 17.

I can never understand this post match analysis which counts the number of scores rather than total up the number of points. There is a reason why a goal is worth 3 points and that is because they are supposed to be much more difficult to score.

Mickey Harte has yet to prove that he can adapt tactically to prevent goal chances against his side while still carrying a goal threat at the other end of the pitch. He did neither last weekend.   

The total number of scores is vs the actual score can give a view on the game though. If I score 10pts and you score 4 goals, I've got 6 more scores, so likely had more possession in the scoring zone than you did, but didn't create goal chances. Whereas you had less possession in the scoring zone but did create goal chances. It's just a form of comparison, doesn't dilute the  margin of victory.
The scoring statistics I always think is a better stat comparatively speaking. Derry with 17/34 chances tells a story in itself.

I do agree with your comment on Harte though.

[A 5,000 seat plus 15 to 20,000 standing would do the GAA in Belfast/Antrim just fine]

The GAA probably couldn't give 2 hoots whether there's a Euro soccer game in Belfast or not.
If the IFA, 6Cos Executive, Brit Govt and various soccer supporters want it then let them pay for it.
A 5,000 seat plus 15 to 20,000 standing would do the GAA in Belfast/Antrim just fine.

No it wouldn't.
Part of the Casement redevelopment is that it becomes the new venue for the Ulster final as Clones is not fit for purpose.
Ulster final will sell 30K tickets annually without even trying to, could probably sell 40K.

Only thing for sure is that there are no winners, but hopefully justice is service.

As I said before, it is hard to see how you can prove something 20 years ago beyond reasonable doubt, I doubt there were witnesses other than his wife.

Hearing other cases the PPS didn't prosecute due unlikelihood of conviction even when there is evidence, they must feel there's a high chance of conviction based on what ever evidence they have. No?

I've no idea myself - I'm doing a lot of reading between the lines and may well be getting it wrong.

Today was the 1st appearance. I'd be shocked if the PPS even have the full file yet let alone have made a decision. It would be unusual for them to have the full file yet particularly if the allegations only surfaced in March.

So does that mean the PPS could still decide not prosecute?
I've no idea how these things work, I'd made the assumption it only gets this far if the PPS are already in a position to prosecute.
Interesting.

Armagh must be worth an each way bet. Likely to be top seeds having had some warm up matches to try systems/squad before the Ulster final against a jaded Donegal or Tyrone. They'll probably not have a better chance of making a semi or a final for a while.

In all seriousness, bar drawing Dublin I'd be very disappointed if we don't make a semi final. Donegal, Tyrone, Kerry, Derry, Galway, Mayo all very good teams but have their flaws, time we pushed on, sick of hard luck stories at the qf stage.

You have a serious chance of making top seed and then a 66% chance of drawing Clare or Louth/Kildare as 2nd seed in your group. Avoid the preliminary quarter final thereafter and you're set up to beat the hard luck stories!

Sam is Armagh's to lose this year. If they don't win Sam, will it be seen as a failure and signal the end for McGeeney?

We see more what they like against Tyrone, hard to base on the Derry game, as they were gifted 3 goals and a easy enough penalty.

I'm not sure Tyrone will be much of a challenge.

You will have noticed that the LVF were generally unable to carry out any attacks in the Garvaghy Road and Tunnel areas of Portadown. They did once try to shoot up the Tír na nÓg clubhouse one night but apparently the gunman was shaking so much he missed the building. Billy Wright and his cohorts were very much protected and enabled by the RUC, everyone in Portadown was aware of this hence the RUC couldn't guarantee easy access and exit from any of the nationalist areas of town. As an aside Robert Hamill's mother died this week without seeing any justice for her son's murder.

Wasn't aware of the Portadown situation, but thinking back on it there was genuine fear of the LVF across the catholic community. Watching King Rat and his cohorts patrol the crowds at Garvaghy always sent chills. There was that feeling that they could and would do what they wanted. Pure evil.
I know Wright eventually finished up in prison, but I can't remember what the charge was.
His killing in prison, also feels like it could have had a level of facilitating about it - perhaps to keep him quiet?

I didn't see the Derry/Donegal match, but I am seriously impressed by any team allegedly out played who's best players were stymied but still managed 17 points. Goals win games but can be prevented. it was 15 scores to 17.

We got about 4/5 scores at the end of the match when it was already over to take the bad look off it. 17/34 attempts for Derry - awful percentages. A lot of that was down to how much pressure Donegal put on us, but we were generally poor.
Be under no doubt, this was a 6 point hammering.

I hope we can recover and a lot of talk going on about Harte being in this position before and going on to do big things, but I'm not so sure if he's to credit for that.

I still have huge faith in the players, including Lynch who has been unfairly picked out for criticism in my view. I don't think we'll be as bad again, but can we recover enough to really challenge an AI?

Can Cavan beat Monaghan? No, of course not.
Can Donegal beat Derry? No, don't be ridiculous.
Can Down surprise Armagh on Saturday? Hello no. Put your house and future salary on the orangemen.

I didn't hear too many people dismissing Donegal before the Derry match or indeed Cavan before the Monaghan game.
That means Down are a shoe in.

Only thing for sure is that there are no winners, but hopefully justice is service.

As I said before, it is hard to see how you can prove something 20 years ago beyond reasonable doubt, I doubt there were witnesses other than his wife.

Hearing other cases the PPS didn't prosecute due unlikelihood of conviction even when there is evidence, they must feel there's a high chance of conviction based on what ever evidence they have. No?

I've no idea myself - I'm doing a lot of reading between the lines and may well be getting it wrong.

[he'd have no shame]

If he's guilty of what he's alleged to be guilty of then he'd have no shame so wouldn't bat an eyelid about victims. If he's not no reason he shouldn't be in public life.

A completely mad one. Could be staring at a lengthy enough jail term. Who knows what way it will pan out.

Hadn't thought of it like that, but I guess that's right.

Agree with other posters though - innocent until proven otherwise.

Having been WhatsApp'd some of the allegations around what is supposed to have happened and who the victims are, I really hope an example is made of him and his wife if they are proven to be correct. There must be a substantial body of evidence if it has gotten as far as it has though. If he's found guilty - he's had some nerve to put himself out in the public domain the way he has for the last 30odd years and shows a complete disregard for the victims.

There's always the flip side to that I suppose too, if he's innocent its a hell of an ordeal to go through.

Only thing for sure is that there are no winners, but hopefully justice is service.

I dont think Mickey Harte will be too upset that Derry are out of the Ulster. They have the medals from the last 2 years in their pockets. Its all about SAM for them now. They get a nice 4 week break to get themselves ready. I would not be writing them off at all.

100% correct.

I really hope this is the case.
The weight of expectation will have lightened a bit after that defeat.
But time will tell what it has done to the players in terms of confidence. MH needs to learn to change tactics in-game if we are to have a serious chance at it.

This sad case is just an example of the norm with regards to policing at that time and for decades before it.
Makes it all the more satisfying how the political landscape has changed here since that time.

The Brown family have had a lot to endure and unfortunately for them it's difficult to see how they ever get closure let alone justice.
British government, even today despite the changes, only looking out for themselves and their own rather than everyone they are meant to govern equally. I can only assume some senior tory/military names would be in the frame should the detail come out.

I remember at the time it sent chills through the whole  nationalist community. Just listening to Talkback and Trevor Birney talking about and how attacking someone like Sean Brown was a deliberate ploy as he was decent and could not be associated with any paramilitary organisation. It was purely to put fear and Terror through a whole community by striking at its centre.

We had just won the AI and had beaten Bellaghy in the Ulster final before Christmas 1996. There was a crew of us living in Belfast and we had close relationships on and off the field with a lot of the Bellaghy lads. It struck hard. I remember travelling home at the time and we regularly changed out pick up spots etc. Going to matches in Lurgan and that was always a concern as well. How the f**k was that normal? 

Unfortunately we normalised it at the time and adopted

My dad handed me the book The Shankill butchers when it came out

Made me read it before I headed out that weekend, needless to say that put the willies up me for that period of heading out! 

Absolutely horrible book. Really tough. I read the book called committee. Really opened my eyes as a teenager growing up.

Only policeman you trust is a dead one.

Haven't read the Shankill butchers but did read the committee.
Certain well know  car dealerships at the fore.
If I remember right they have the oath taken by orange order members in the back cover too.