Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.

[sid waddell]

Once again Sid is the only person who has tried to diminish or justify the murder of civilians here.

He's an unintelligent troll and best ignored. The last few pages has been him morphing into his zealot Donald Trump mode. The mask really slips when he loses the temper and the posts about Sean Browne were disgusting.

Free Staters have absolutely no right to comment on the troubles and no right to use victims to score points.

Their government watched on and did nothing as the nationalist community were beaten, attacked and discriminated against by the state but yet he feels morally superior. There is without a very noticeable element on this board of Free Staters who openly resent northern nationalists. They have a lot in common with unionism.

People who become experts behind computer screens rather than their life experiences.

Nail on head, these folk had no interest in their fellow Irishmen then or now - the level of moral superiority these keyboard warriors have about something they could know nothing about is pathetic at the very least, the Sid guy has serious mental health issues and Rossfan is no better.

Do Shinnerbot trolls like the anti-vaxx, Covid denying "Seaney" (hi ArmaghStew) ever wonder why if they hate "Free Staters" so much, they're supporting a party led by Mary Lou McDonald, from Rathgar, ex of Fianna Fail?

Rathgar being one of the most upper class areas in the country, like

Eoin O'Broin went to Blackrock College

By the standards of the Shinnerbots, what would Pearse Doherty know about the North? He didn't have to live there

In the Shinners' own words, their own leadership is clueless about the north

Because they didn't grow up there

The irony keeps giving

Laughable

[Chief]

The end of the RUC didn't happen by murdering people, it happened by peaceful negotiation

Just like the RIC could have? Explain how the RUC could have been disbanded, and at what point? The Anglo-Irish Agreement didn't countenance the idea. Neither did Sunngingdale. So you'll need something more convincing than "oh it just would have magically happened if nationalists agitated for it enough or if enough peaceful nationalist protesters got shot dead in the street"

In the exact same way it eventually happened in 2000, by peaceful negotiation

You achieve this by mass political mobilisation and protest, mass sustained civil disobedience, international attention continually being drawn to the plight of Catholic civilians

And even if the RUC hadn't ended until 2000, well you would have been spared the intervening years of murder

Two situations:
i) a hypothetical - 30 years of peaceful Catholic protest and the end of the RUC in 2000
ii) the reality - 28 years of murder, societal devastation and the end of the RUC in 2000

i) is miles better than ii)

Isn't it?

Unlike others on here, I actually agree with some of your stuff on this board, not this thread though. This bit here I'm afraid you have no idea of what life is like up here. If plenty of the unionists had their way catholics would be living in hovels still with little chance of getting out of it. They'd quite happily slaughter catholics if they were able to. The vitriol, if you have ever experienced it which you clearly haven't it, is akin to Trump on speed!

Shouting "you have no idea what life is like up here" is a non sequitur

A cousin of mine, a Catholic, a civilian with no connections whatsoever to the Brits or the British state, was kidnapped by the PIRA for the crime of working in a bank

Firstly, I do have an idea, a very good idea, I have been extremely interested in the Northern conflict and history for my whole life and visited it more times than I'd care to remember and you don't need to have lived anywhere to know basic, easily identifiable facts about life on the ground

Secondly, the majority of the Catholic population of the North agreed with me - during the Troubles, they voted for the SDLP, not Sinn Fein

Your post effectively says that John Hume, Seamus Mallon, the rest of the SDLP, and the majority of the Catholic population of the six counties did not know what they were talking about

I will say it again - you have no idea what life is like up here. You haven't lived here, vicariously via your cousin doesn't count.

I worked in a Catholic bar around the time of the Greysteel massacre and everyone was bricking themselves but refused to be housebound. Try living in Co Antrim (all of the O6) in those times, you'd have a totally different viewpoint on it. As I said Loyalists and many Unionists would slaughter Catholics if they could and they did at times with British state collusion. A man locking up a GAA ground at night in 1997 (not the 70s) and getting brutally killed like Sean Brown in Bellaghy, these things would exist to this day if they could get away with it.

Sorry but that's more bluster

What you are saying is that if I lived in the North between 1969 and 1997, I'd have supported the IRA's campaign of murder

But the majority of the Catholic population who lived in the North did not support it

The majority wanted it to stop and to live normal lives, not lives clouded with suspicion and fear

If the IRA had not abandoned their ceasefire, Sean Brown would probably not have been murdered, he might even still be alive - because the circle of tit for tat would have been broken or at least greatly lessened - the LVF would likely never have come into being

You are way out of line on this one and clearly out of your depth.  I mean WAY WAY out of line.

The above comment re Sean Brown is totally naive, inaccurate, and insulting to the Brown family and the GAA.

Disgraceful.

It's not in any way inaccurate, it's exactly right

You made zero effort to say why you think my post is disgraceful, zero effort to engage

And therefore your post has zero merit or credibility

You've no right to stop people voicing opinions and facts and truths you don't like

Sid - there was nothing inevitable about that death when placed in the context PIRA ceasefire status.

If you intended to make a point about how breaking the ceasefire made civilian deaths, generally speaking, more inevitable then fine - but the way you called out that specific incident, and painted a straight line from IRA activity to his death I'm sure was crass and hurtful to many.

It also sadly echos Loyalist justifications for such murders - which should be roundly rejected by fair minded people. By providing what you view as the context, you are (again likely unknowingly) giving the perpetrators a degree of cover in the minds of some (e.g. "these things were nasty but  necessary because the IRA were back on the scene")

Deliberately or not, your are deflecting status away from those who need to held truly accountable for that killing, by bringing in actors who had no link to the man in question.

The rest of your comments about SF are fine and part of political debate- they can be debated and talked through (I actually agree with certain percentages) but the Sean Brown comment should be retracted.

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

Once again Sid is the only person who has tried to diminish or justify the murder of civilians here.

He's an unintelligent troll and best ignored. The last few pages has been him morphing into his zealot Donald Trump mode. The mask really slips when he loses the temper and the posts about Sean Browne were disgusting.

Free Staters have absolutely no right to comment on the troubles and no right to use victims to score points.

Their government watched on and did nothing as the nationalist community were beaten, attacked and discriminated against by the state but yet he feels morally superior. There is without a very noticeable element on this board of Free Staters who openly resent northern nationalists. They have a lot in common with unionism.

People who become experts behind computer screens rather than their life experiences.

Nail on head, these folk had no interest in their fellow Irishmen then or now - the level of moral superiority these keyboard warriors have about something they could know nothing about is pathetic at the very least, the Sid guy has serious mental health issues and Rossfan is no better.

Do Shinnerbot trolls like the anti-vaxx, Covid denying "Seaney" (hi ArmaghStew) ever wonder why if they hate "Free Staters" so much, they're supporting a party led by Mary Lou McDonald, from Rathgar, ex of Fianna Fail?

Rathgar being one of the most upper class areas in the country, like

Eoin O'Broin went to Blackrock College

By the standards of the Shinnerbots, what would Pearse Doherty know about the North? He didn't have to live there

In the Shinners' own words, their own leadership is clueless about the north

Because they didn't grow up there

The irony keeps giving

Laughable

Have to say this is true and How a growing number of northern republicans feel. Make no mistake about it this is the way forward for SF and slowly but surely northerners will lose grip of the party which is in pursuit of the Holy Grail-power within Dáil Éireann

[Snapchap]

So this is Sid today:

You see, to you, victims are "bingo"...only useful to you for being able to score political points

But curiously, here was Sid yesterday:

You disagree that those who murdered the workmen at Kingsmills and Joanne Mathers and the people at Enniskillen and the members of the Irish Collie Club and Jonathan Ball and Tim Parry and the people buying fish on the Shankill Road were murdering bastards

you decide to carry on fooling yourself that blowing up Marie Wilson, shooting Joanne Mathers and blowing up Jonathan Ball was justified

Did you yourself support the murder of Ronan Kerr and the blowing up of Peadar Heffron?

And if one attempts to, well, then they're making the moral case for the murder of Ronan Kerr, Lyra McKee and the attempted murder of Peadar Heffron

Yet, apparently I'm the one playing victim bingo to score political points. The mind boggles.

You can't even bring yourself to condemn the mass murder of Enniskillen

Of course I can condemn Enniskillen. It was repugnant and morally unjustifiable.

Now, I know I've asked you this umpteen times, but I'll keep asking until you grow a pair and answer:

If someone who believes the PIRA campaign in general was justifiable, and that to you means they therefore must view the Enniskillen bomb attack as justifiable, then since you believe the Old IRA campaign on the whole was justifiable, surely we can assume that you regard the Dunmanway Massacre as justifiable?

[Angelo]

I'd have an awful lot of issues with SF myself and the way they do their business.

However, I view the gutter attacks by the free state establishment on them and the playing political football with victims of the trouble by FFG not as an attack on SF but as an attack on northern nationalists. FFG consistently demean the plight of northern nationalists, pontificate as to how they are morally superior to us when they are anything but.

As I have said, there are a lot of issues I'd have with SF, the direction they are going to and the populism that now drives the party. But when you hear the attacks from FG/FF and SDLP up here, I see it as cheap attacks on Irish nationalism as they focus on the troubles and not SF's policies. And that solidifies an awful lot of people to keep backing SF and will continue to do so.

FFG had no moral compass to do anything when us and particularly are parent's generation were getting discriminated in housing, education, employment - when they were beaten and shot off the streets, harassed on a daily basis. So why do they have the compunction to tell us what is right and wrong when they are happy to stand for that?

Maybe a spell living under British rule as a minority community would enlighten some of the free staters like Sid and Rossfan.

[Angelo]

So this is Sid today:

You see, to you, victims are "bingo"...only useful to you for being able to score political points

But curiously, here was Sid yesterday:

You disagree that those who murdered the workmen at Kingsmills and Joanne Mathers and the people at Enniskillen and the members of the Irish Collie Club and Jonathan Ball and Tim Parry and the people buying fish on the Shankill Road were murdering bastards

you decide to carry on fooling yourself that blowing up Marie Wilson, shooting Joanne Mathers and blowing up Jonathan Ball was justified

Did you yourself support the murder of Ronan Kerr and the blowing up of Peadar Heffron?

And if one attempts to, well, then they're making the moral case for the murder of Ronan Kerr, Lyra McKee and the attempted murder of Peadar Heffron

Yet, apparently I'm the one playing victim bingo to score political points. The mind boggles.

You can't even bring yourself to condemn the mass murder of Enniskillen

Of course I can condemn Enniskillen. It was repugnant and morally unjustifiable.

Now, I know I've asked you this umpteen times, but I'll keep asking until you grow a pair and answer:

If someone who believes the PIRA campaign in general was justifiable, and that to you means they therefore must view the Enniskillen bomb attack as justifiable, then since you believe the Old IRA campaign on the whole was justifiable, surely we can assume that you regard the Dunmanway Massacre as justifiable?

Sid is the only poster I have seen here who has consistently tried to justify the murder of civilians.

And he's the one trying to take the moral high ground.

[sid waddell]

The end of the RUC didn't happen by murdering people, it happened by peaceful negotiation

Just like the RIC could have? Explain how the RUC could have been disbanded, and at what point? The Anglo-Irish Agreement didn't countenance the idea. Neither did Sunngingdale. So you'll need something more convincing than "oh it just would have magically happened if nationalists agitated for it enough or if enough peaceful nationalist protesters got shot dead in the street"

In the exact same way it eventually happened in 2000, by peaceful negotiation

You achieve this by mass political mobilisation and protest, mass sustained civil disobedience, international attention continually being drawn to the plight of Catholic civilians

And even if the RUC hadn't ended until 2000, well you would have been spared the intervening years of murder

Two situations:
i) a hypothetical - 30 years of peaceful Catholic protest and the end of the RUC in 2000
ii) the reality - 28 years of murder, societal devastation and the end of the RUC in 2000

i) is miles better than ii)

Isn't it?

Unlike others on here, I actually agree with some of your stuff on this board, not this thread though. This bit here I'm afraid you have no idea of what life is like up here. If plenty of the unionists had their way catholics would be living in hovels still with little chance of getting out of it. They'd quite happily slaughter catholics if they were able to. The vitriol, if you have ever experienced it which you clearly haven't it, is akin to Trump on speed!

Shouting "you have no idea what life is like up here" is a non sequitur

A cousin of mine, a Catholic, a civilian with no connections whatsoever to the Brits or the British state, was kidnapped by the PIRA for the crime of working in a bank

Firstly, I do have an idea, a very good idea, I have been extremely interested in the Northern conflict and history for my whole life and visited it more times than I'd care to remember and you don't need to have lived anywhere to know basic, easily identifiable facts about life on the ground

Secondly, the majority of the Catholic population of the North agreed with me - during the Troubles, they voted for the SDLP, not Sinn Fein

Your post effectively says that John Hume, Seamus Mallon, the rest of the SDLP, and the majority of the Catholic population of the six counties did not know what they were talking about

I will say it again - you have no idea what life is like up here. You haven't lived here, vicariously via your cousin doesn't count.

I worked in a Catholic bar around the time of the Greysteel massacre and everyone was bricking themselves but refused to be housebound. Try living in Co Antrim (all of the O6) in those times, you'd have a totally different viewpoint on it. As I said Loyalists and many Unionists would slaughter Catholics if they could and they did at times with British state collusion. A man locking up a GAA ground at night in 1997 (not the 70s) and getting brutally killed like Sean Brown in Bellaghy, these things would exist to this day if they could get away with it.

Sorry but that's more bluster

What you are saying is that if I lived in the North between 1969 and 1997, I'd have supported the IRA's campaign of murder

But the majority of the Catholic population who lived in the North did not support it

The majority wanted it to stop and to live normal lives, not lives clouded with suspicion and fear

If the IRA had not abandoned their ceasefire, Sean Brown would probably not have been murdered, he might even still be alive - because the circle of tit for tat would have been broken or at least greatly lessened - the LVF would likely never have come into being

You are way out of line on this one and clearly out of your depth.  I mean WAY WAY out of line.

The above comment re Sean Brown is totally naive, inaccurate, and insulting to the Brown family and the GAA.

Disgraceful.

It's not in any way inaccurate, it's exactly right

You made zero effort to say why you think my post is disgraceful, zero effort to engage

And therefore your post has zero merit or credibility

You've no right to stop people voicing opinions and facts and truths you don't like

Sid - there was nothing inevitable about that death when placed in the context PIRA ceasefire status.

If you intended to make a point about how it made civilian deaths, generally speaking, more inevitable then fine - but the way you called out that specific one, and painted a straight line from IRA activity to his death I'm sure was crass and hurtful to many.

It also sadly echos Loyalist justifications for such murders - which should be roundly rejected by fair minded people. By providing what you view as the context, you are (again likely unknowingly) giving the perpetrators a degree of cover in the minds of some (e.g. "these things were necessary because the IRA were back on the scene")

Deliberately or not, your are deflecting status away from those who need to held truly accountable for that killing, by bringing in actors who had no link to the man in question.

The rest of your comments about SF are fine and part of political debate- they can be debated and talked through (I actually agree with certain percentages) but the Sean Brown comment should be retracted.

Nothing I said about the murder of Sean Brown was incorrect

I have cast zero aspersions on him whatsoever - he was a totally innocent man going about his business who was slaughtered for the "crime" of being a Catholic and a GAA man - and I have correctly apportioned the blame for his slaughter where it lies - with the evil Loyalist scum who did it

Here's the thing - Sinn Fein play the exact game their supporters accuse me of

They actually do legitimise civilian slaughter because of the actions of Unionist, Loyalists and the Brits

And it is true that Unionist and British intransigence and brutality did lead to armed uprising

Violence begets violence begets violence

Murder begets murder begets more murder

But the civilian slaughter carried out by the PIRA is on the heads of the PIRA, like the sectarian slaughter carried out by Loyalist scum is on the heads of Loyalist scum

The question is: when the PIRA bombed Canary Wharf and went back on the warpath, did they think that the Loyalist scum would not then do similar?

Did they seriously think that?

What would have been the rationale for not thinking such?

Did Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness and the IRA Army Council, with their 27 years of experience of the conflict and how it worked, seriously think that when that bomb went off, it would not start a chain of events which had the potential to spiral beyond their control, and that innocent Catholic civilians would be some of the people who would suffer as a result of this chain of events?

If they believed that, they would have been naive beyond belief - but they weren't naive - if there was one thing Adams and McGuinness were not, it was naive

Or were the likely deaths of innocent Catholic civilians considered acceptable collateral damage to the Catholic community - the very community Sinn Fein claimed to be protecting - in order for Sinn Fein to gain admission to talks?

The answer would have to be yes, they were

These are the hard questions with hard answers, and they need to be faced up to

The murderers of countless innocent victims like Sean Brown, Catholic victims, were let out under the GFA - people like Torrens Knight, who perpetrated the slaughter of innocents at Greysteel

The release of whom Sinn Fein supported - because they supported the release of their own murderers

[general_lee]

Sid you are aware the LVF were targeting innocent Catholics over things like Drumcree and Dublin having a say in NI affairs. It's so much more nuanced than "they're just returning the serve to the Provos". You've shown yourself up so badly on this thread. Time to clock out

[sid waddell]

So this is Sid today:

You see, to you, victims are "bingo"...only useful to you for being able to score political points

But curiously, here was Sid yesterday:

You disagree that those who murdered the workmen at Kingsmills and Joanne Mathers and the people at Enniskillen and the members of the Irish Collie Club and Jonathan Ball and Tim Parry and the people buying fish on the Shankill Road were murdering bastards

you decide to carry on fooling yourself that blowing up Marie Wilson, shooting Joanne Mathers and blowing up Jonathan Ball was justified

Did you yourself support the murder of Ronan Kerr and the blowing up of Peadar Heffron?

And if one attempts to, well, then they're making the moral case for the murder of Ronan Kerr, Lyra McKee and the attempted murder of Peadar Heffron

Yet, apparently I'm the one playing victim bingo to score political points. The mind boggles.

You can't even bring yourself to condemn the mass murder of Enniskillen

Of course I can condemn Enniskillen. It was repugnant and morally unjustifiable.

Now, I know I've asked you this umpteen times, but I'll keep asking until you grow a pair and answer:

If someone who believes the PIRA campaign in general was justifiable, and that to you means they therefore must view the Enniskillen bomb attack as justifiable, then since you believe the Old IRA campaign on the whole was justifiable, surely we can assume that you regard the Dunmanway Massacre as justifiable?

The difference is - I consider those victims to be real victims with real stories and real pain and agony inflicted on them and their loved ones

You consider them bingo and whataboutery

The core principle of Sinn Fein now, in 2020, is that the IRA were right to do what they did

Dice it up anyway you like - that's the core principle

You cannot be a Sinn Fein member and say that the PIRA's campaign, of which sectarian slaughter was integral part, was morally wrong

You could agree with every one of SF's other policies, but say the RA were wrong, and you're toast

It's not allowed, you'd be fucked out of the party quicksmart

You denied that sectarian slaughter was an integral part of the PIRA's campaign yesterday

You wanted to cherry pick, to whitewash

To you and other Shinners, Joanne Mathers and Marie Wilson and Jonathan Ball are a big incovenience - any time they're mentioned in relation to Sinn Fein, the reaction is always the same - "shut up"

The Sinn Fein narrative is - Sinn Fein can continue to glorify the campaign that killed those victims, but nobody should ever mention the victims


For Shinners, they must be airbrushed from history

[sid waddell]

Sid you are aware the LVF were targeting innocent Catholics over things like Drumcree and Dublin having a say in NI affairs. It's so much more nuanced than "they're just returning the serve to the Provos". You've shown yourself up so badly on this thread. Time to clock out

But you're missing the nuance

By bombing Canary Wharf and going back on the warpath - at a time when there had been a peace, an uneasy peace but a peace all the same, the PIRA gave licence to Loyalist scum to start up again - the LVF started up in the summer of 1996

The logic of Loyalists was that they were returning the serve - a twisted, grotesque logic, but everybody knew that was their logic, including Adams and McGuinness

Or are you trying to claim that Adams and McGuinness didn't know that that was their logic?

Would the LVF have come into being had the PIRA not gone back on the warpath in February 1996?

Would the chances of the LVF coming into being have been lessened had the PIRA not gone back on the warpath in February 1996?

The LVF continued for a while after the second PIRA ceasefire - according to some here, that would have been a justification for the IRA to have "returned the serve" - and indeed they did by killing Billy Wright, over who no tears were shed by any reasonable people

But according to the logic of some here, it would have been a justification for ending the second ceasefire for real

[Angelo]

Sid you are aware the LVF were targeting innocent Catholics over things like Drumcree and Dublin having a say in NI affairs. It's so much more nuanced than "they're just returning the serve to the Provos". You've shown yourself up so badly on this thread. Time to clock out

But you're missing the nuance

By bombing Canary Wharf and going back on the warpath - at a time when there had been a peace, an uneasy peace but a peace all the same, the PIRA gave licence to Loyalist scum to start up again - the LVF started up in the summer of 1996

The logic of Loyalists was that they were returning the serve - a twisted, grotesque logic, but everybody knew that was their logic, including Adams and McGuinness

Or are you trying to claim that Adams and McGuinness didn't know that that was their logic?

Would the LVF have come into being had the PIRA not gone back on the warpath in February 1996?

Would the chances of the LVF coming into being have been lessened had the PIRA not gone back on the warpath in February 1996?

The LVF continued for a while after the second PIRA ceasefire - according to some here, that would have been a justification for the IRA to have "returned the serve" - and indeed they did by killing Billy Wright, over who no tears were shed by any reasonable people

But according to the logic of some here, it would have been a justification for ending the second ceasefire for real

Victim blaming now.

You really are a nasty piece of work.

[Snapchap]

Sid Today:

Nothing I said about the murder of Sean Brown was incorrect. I have correctly apportioned the blame for his slaughter where it lies

Sid Yesterday:

If the IRA had not abandoned their ceasefire, Sean Brown would probably not have been murdered, he might even still be alive

You're a sick, twisted little p***k.

[Snapchap]

I'll keep asking, Sid:

If someone who believes the PIRA campaign in general was justifiable, and that to you means they therefore must view the Enniskillen bomb attack as justifiable, then since you believe the Old IRA campaign on the whole was justifiable, surely we can assume that you regard the Dunmanway Massacre as justifiable?

[sid waddell]

When Boris Johnson became UK Prime Minister, his history of racist comments was rightly brought up

Sinn Feiners pointed to them as evidence that he was not fit to be UK PM

And that would be correct, he isn't fit to be PM

So why then is Sinn Fein's continued glorification of a campaign of which civilian slaughter was an integral part deemed off limits for discussion?

What's the rationale that says that Johnson's history of racism means he's be unfit to be PM, yet also says that anybody who believes Sinn Fein's continued glorification of a campaign in which civilian slaughter was an integral part makes them unfit for government in the Republic, should shut the f**k up?

What's that rationale?

Can anybody explain that total double standard?

[Snapchap]

Just answer the question Sid.

If someone who believes the PIRA campaign in general was justifiable, and that to you means they therefore must view the Enniskillen bomb attack as justifiable, then since you believe the Old IRA campaign on the whole was justifiable, surely we can assume that you regard the Dunmanway Massacre as justifiable?