I was searching for a topic about the uprising in Syria and the butchery of the regime. Couldn't find one. Allegedly more than a thousand people have died at the hands of the government.
Perish the thought,surely the great Brits and Americans would be saving the day if there was any trouble at all sure they're always looking out for every nations best interests ::)
Quote from: Trout on June 10, 2011, 09:56:11 PM
I was searching for a topic about the uprising in Syria and the butchery of the regime. Couldn't find one. Allegedly more than a thousand people have died at the hands of the government.
The boys are too busy preparing a flotilla to be on here...
Syria was a valued asset in the war against terror. I seem to remember that Syria was where people underwent Extraordinary Rendition to allegedly.
http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org/site/c.goJTI0OvElH/b.1387629/k.F4A8/Extraordinary_Renditions__US_outsourcing_Torture.htm
Syrian diplomat was invited to royal wedding but thankfully Syrian Diplomat Pulled Off Guest List
.
http://www.voanews.com/english/news/europe/Britains-Royal-Wedding-Program-Released-120854424.html
Quote from: Trout on June 10, 2011, 09:56:11 PM
I was searching for a topic about the uprising in Syria and the butchery of the regime. Couldn't find one. Allegedly more than a thousand people have died at the hands of the government.
There is a topic about the upheaval in the middle east.
I know there is a topic about the Middle East but is the use of chemical weapons in Syria are proven, Obama has said that this will signify that a line has been crossed and America would take action.
Images of Death in Syria, but No Proof of Chemical Attack
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/22/world/middleeast/syria.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
But not only America.
France Urges 'Force' in Syria if Chemical Attacks Are Confirmed
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/23/world/middleeast/france-urges-force-in-syria-if-chemical-attacks-confirmed.html
On the other hand,
http://www.infowars.com/experts-syria-chemical-weapons-attack-suspicious/
This deserves a topic of its own. Just saw pictures of dead children lined up after a chemical weapons attacks.
FFS something needs to be done here. Something should have been done a long, long time ago. Sickening stuff.
Is there oil?
No
Will anything be done?
No
Will there be lots of hot air spouted by William Hague, John Kerry et al.
Yes
Will anything be done
No
Quote from: southdown on August 22, 2013, 12:25:50 PM
Just saw pictures of dead children lined up after a chemical weapons attacks.
you should see the pictures of the living children after the latest chemical attack, so many young lives ruined. truly sickening stuff.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 10, 2011, 10:08:43 PM
Quote from: Trout on June 10, 2011, 09:56:11 PM
I was searching for a topic about the uprising in Syria and the butchery of the regime. Couldn't find one. Allegedly more than a thousand people have died at the hands of the government.
The boys are too busy preparing a flotilla to be on here...
You will see I posted about it yesterday Tony. People are too busy talking about a girl in Peru and one at Slane to notice......
Quote from: give her dixie on August 22, 2013, 01:14:30 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 10, 2011, 10:08:43 PM
Quote from: Trout on June 10, 2011, 09:56:11 PM
I was searching for a topic about the uprising in Syria and the butchery of the regime. Couldn't find one. Allegedly more than a thousand people have died at the hands of the government.
The boys are too busy preparing a flotilla to be on here...
You will see I posted about it yesterday Tony. People are too busy talking about a girl in Peru and one at Slane to notice......
Two years ago.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 22, 2013, 01:18:02 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 22, 2013, 01:14:30 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 10, 2011, 10:08:43 PM
Quote from: Trout on June 10, 2011, 09:56:11 PM
I was searching for a topic about the uprising in Syria and the butchery of the regime. Couldn't find one. Allegedly more than a thousand people have died at the hands of the government.
The boys are too busy preparing a flotilla to be on here...
You will see I posted about it yesterday Tony. People are too busy talking about a girl in Peru and one at Slane to notice......
Two years ago.
???
Quote from: Trout on June 10, 2011, 09:56:11 PM
I was searching for a topic about the uprising in Syria and the butchery of the regime. Couldn't find one. Allegedly more than a thousand people have died at the hands of the government.
sounds like egypt .
Israel wants the americans to get rid of assad so chemical weapons are in the news today.
Israel wants a big showdown with Iran and needs to get Assad out of the way first.
The price of Israel is chaos all over the Middle East.
Thank f**k norn Irn isn't south of Turkey. Israel would have shunted all the catholics into refugee camps a long time ago.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/1.542975
Yuval Steinitz, the minister for intelligence and strategic affairs, told Israel Radio that it is Israel's intelligence assessment that President Bashar Assad used chemical weapons against Syrian civilians on Wednesday.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.542873
By implicating Assad on chemical weapons, Israel hopes to prod Obama to act
Israel views Syria conflict through prism of a nuclear Iran while U.S. is influenced by trauma of September 11; Jerusalem dreads an Assad victory, Washington fears his jihadist rivals.
The extent of the American hesitancy was made crystal clear, by coincidence, with the publication a few hours earlier of Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Martin Dempsey's letter to Congressman Eliot Engel, in which the army general – for the second time this month – ruled out significant military action against the Assad regime. Any current opposition that would take Assad's place, Dempsey wrote in essence, would be just as bad or even worse, as far as the U.S. is concerned.
This apparent reversal of the hitherto unequivocal U.S. position, by which Assad's removal from power is a sine qua non for resolving the Syria crisis, is exactly what has been worrying senior military and diplomatic figures in Israel in recent weeks.
West Jerusalem, along with other Arab capitals, view Assad's survival as the worst-case scenario, a disastrous triumph for Iran and the Shiite crescent that it wishes to establish, from Tehran to Beirut. This growing gap between the sides reflects the divergence between the nuclear Iran obsession of Israel and other players in the region and the September 11 trauma that colors the U.S. approach. The American nightmare is a replay of Afghanistan, in which support for Islamist mujahideen against Soviet invaders was the breeding ground for Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaida. Israel views the rise of Islamic jihadists as a lesser evil, and was therefore quick to pounce on the gruesome videos coming out of Damascus in order to declare Assad guilty and possibly nudge Obama to finally act against him.
Will this thread be used for discussion, or like the other middle east related threads on gaaboard, will it be a place solely for posting endlessss articles from elsewhere online?
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 22, 2013, 02:14:42 PM
Will this thread be used for discussion, or like the other middle east related threads on gaaboard, will it be a place solely for posting endlessss articles from elsewhere online?
For once I actually agree with you ;)
Quote from: thebigfella on August 22, 2013, 02:18:58 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 22, 2013, 02:14:42 PM
Will this thread be used for discussion, or like the other middle east related threads on gaaboard, will it be a place solely for posting endlessss articles from elsewhere online?
For once I actually agree with you ;)
Discuss away lads....
Quote from: give her dixie on August 23, 2013, 02:31:54 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on August 22, 2013, 02:18:58 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 22, 2013, 02:14:42 PM
Will this thread be used for discussion, or like the other middle east related threads on gaaboard, will it be a place solely for posting endlessss articles from elsewhere online?
For once I actually agree with you ;)
Discuss away lads....
Tis no personal jibe dixie! I'm no expert on the topic, but i'd be interested in reading any discussion about it on here instead of reading articles from elsewhere just copied and pasted in, followed by another one, and another one, and another one....
So America are training the so called Syrian rebels. Positive development or not ?.
Quote from: orangeman on May 28, 2014, 12:39:15 AM
So America are training the so called Syrian rebels. Positive development or not ?.
It won't be the first time they've trained Fundamental Muslimists and look where that got them.
The government seems to be winning with the help of Hizbollah and the Iranians.
There will be great profits in reconstruction.
Quote from: johnneycool on May 28, 2014, 09:14:59 AM
Quote from: orangeman on May 28, 2014, 12:39:15 AM
So America are training the so called Syrian rebels. Positive development or not ?.
It won't be the first time they've trained Fundamental Muslimists and look where that got them.
USA slow learners or else they just don't care.
There will be a lot of lives lost by the time they rebuild Syria. There already has been.
Quote from: orangeman on May 28, 2014, 09:19:39 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on May 28, 2014, 09:14:59 AM
Quote from: orangeman on May 28, 2014, 12:39:15 AM
So America are training the so called Syrian rebels. Positive development or not ?.
It won't be the first time they've trained Fundamental Muslimists and look where that got them.
USA slow learners or else they just don't care.
There will be a lot of lives lost by the time they rebuild Syria. There already has been.
I think something should be done to stop what is happening in Syria however I think it is impossible for the US to do it so I think it is a mistake by Obama.
Do you have any opinion on what should be done on Syria yourself Orangeman ?
Should anything be done and, if so, who should do it ?
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 28, 2014, 01:06:29 PM
Quote from: orangeman on May 28, 2014, 09:19:39 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on May 28, 2014, 09:14:59 AM
Quote from: orangeman on May 28, 2014, 12:39:15 AM
So America are training the so called Syrian rebels. Positive development or not ?.
It won't be the first time they've trained Fundamental Muslimists and look where that got them.
USA slow learners or else they just don't care.
There will be a lot of lives lost by the time they rebuild Syria. There already has been.
I think something should be done to stop what is happening in Syria however I think it is impossible for the US to do it so I think it is a mistake by Obama.
Do you have any opinion on what should be done on Syria yourself Orangeman ?
Should anything be done and, if so, who should do it ?
the US is backing Qatar and Saudi who are funding the rebels but they seem to be losing.
Quote from: seafoid on May 28, 2014, 01:31:03 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 28, 2014, 01:06:29 PM
Quote from: orangeman on May 28, 2014, 09:19:39 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on May 28, 2014, 09:14:59 AM
Quote from: orangeman on May 28, 2014, 12:39:15 AM
So America are training the so called Syrian rebels. Positive development or not ?.
It won't be the first time they've trained Fundamental Muslimists and look where that got them.
USA slow learners or else they just don't care.
There will be a lot of lives lost by the time they rebuild Syria. There already has been.
I think something should be done to stop what is happening in Syria however I think it is impossible for the US to do it so I think it is a mistake by Obama.
Do you have any opinion on what should be done on Syria yourself Orangeman ?
Should anything be done and, if so, who should do it ?
the US is backing Qatar and Saudi who are funding the rebels but they seem to be losing.
I wasn't asking you. Let Orangeman answer the question.
Obama has been funding, arming and training the radical Islamic rebels for a few years now. War is big business to the US. Humanity doesnt come into it sadly.
Quote from: give her dixie on May 28, 2014, 01:47:31 PM
Obama has been funding, arming and training the radical Islamic rebels for a few years now. War is big business to the US. Humanity doesnt come into it sadly.
I think it's the only form of additional government spending tolerable to the Republican party.
Death and destruction are great for Raytheon etc
Does anyone want to actually have a discussion on Syria ? One that focuses on what should be done now and in the future.
Simplistic criticism of the US is all well and good but it won't achieve anything. What role should the UN play, should Russia or China attempt to do something or should the conflict just be allowed to take its course.
btw, this is a question for the board. There is no point in trying to have a rational discussion with those other two.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 28, 2014, 02:57:20 PM
Does anyone want to actually have a discussion on Syria ? One that focuses on what should be done now and in the future.
Simplistic criticism of the US is all well and good but it won't achieve anything. What role should the UN play, should Russia or China attempt to do something or should the conflict just be allowed to take its course.
btw, this is a question for the board. There is no point in trying to have a rational discussion with those other two.
What can be done? Send in a UN peace keeping force, but who would that involve and how would the conflict ultimately resolve itself when the peacekeepers are removed.
Libya and Iraq are sectarian blood baths yet we all hailed democracy when the despot dictators were deposed by rebels, but democracy is still a long way off!
Why do the Arab league not do more or is there interests at work on both sides that we're not aware of? We only ever hear of Russia's self interests?
they should have imposed an arms embargo 3 years ago.
But it's probably too late. The rebels don't seem to have much popular support.
Jihad wouldn't be very popular in Ireland South either.
Does anyone know what happened to the Irish Libyan who was paid by the CIA to go fight in Libya and then ended up in Syria?
Quote from: give her dixie on May 28, 2014, 03:47:50 PM
Does anyone know what happened to the Irish Libyan who was paid by the CIA to go fight in Libya and then ended up in Syria?
Did they send him with Ryanair?
Quote from: give her dixie on May 28, 2014, 03:47:50 PM
Does anyone know what happened to the Irish Libyan who was paid by the CIA to go fight in Libya and then ended up in Syria?
His transfer wasn't approved - sent home to Cavan.
Meet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Spring,_Baron_Risby (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Spring,_Baron_Risby)
The former Tory MP, and current Lord, is not only the Chairman of the British Ukraine Society (http://www.britishukrainiansociety.org/en/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=18&Itemid=67) but he was also a director of British Syrian Society. He appeared on an episode of Dispatches in 2012, on Assad. In 2009 David Cameron appointed him Prime Ministerial envoy to Algeria.
There is nothing wrong with the above, although it is a little unfortunate to be linked to 2 revolutions in such a short space of time. Given his luck I might see what the odds are on a new revolution in Algeria.
It is worth noting some other directorships and positions of the Baron:
Hawkley Oil and Gas Ltd (http://www.hawkleyoilandgas.com); (An oil exploration company based in Ukraine)
Minexco Petroleum Inc (http://www.minexcopetroleum.com); (An oil exploration company with a focus on West Africa - I have no idea if this is connected to his role as envoy mentioned above))
Quote from: muppet on May 28, 2014, 04:16:17 PM
Meet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Spring,_Baron_Risby (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Spring,_Baron_Risby)
The former Tory MP, and current Lord, is not only the Chairman of the British Ukraine Society (http://www.britishukrainiansociety.org/en/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=18&Itemid=67) but he was also a director of British Syrian Society. He appeared on an episode of Dispatches in 2012, on Assad. In 2009 David Cameron appointed him Prime Ministerial envoy to Algeria.
There is nothing wrong with the above, although it is a little unfortunate to be linked to 2 revolutions in such a short space of time. Given his luck I might see what the odds are on a new revolution in Algeria.
It is worth noting some other directorships and positions of the Baron:
Hawkley Oil and Gas Ltd (http://www.hawkleyoilandgas.com); (An oil exploration company based in Ukraine)
Minexco Petroleum Inc (http://www.minexcopetroleum.com); (An oil exploration company with a focus on West Africa - I have no idea if this is connected to his role as envoy mentioned above))
I would severely doubt that as that wouldn't be honest and that just wouldn't be cricket old boy!
Didn't the bould Davy Cameron, whilst in the midst of the Arab spring lead a business envoy to the middle east, most of which were Arms dealers tell you all you need to know about the Wests interests in that region.
Also, while Cameron was bombing Libya back to the dark ages, he took a few hours of a break and travelled to Stormont. He was greeted with 2 standing ovations by all. To this day, none of the main parties condemned the death and destruction imposed upon Libya by Cameron, Obama and co
Quote from: johnneycool on May 28, 2014, 04:23:25 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 28, 2014, 04:16:17 PM
Meet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Spring,_Baron_Risby (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Spring,_Baron_Risby)
The former Tory MP, and current Lord, is not only the Chairman of the British Ukraine Society (http://www.britishukrainiansociety.org/en/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=18&Itemid=67) but he was also a director of British Syrian Society. He appeared on an episode of Dispatches in 2012, on Assad. In 2009 David Cameron appointed him Prime Ministerial envoy to Algeria.
There is nothing wrong with the above, although it is a little unfortunate to be linked to 2 revolutions in such a short space of time. Given his luck I might see what the odds are on a new revolution in Algeria.
It is worth noting some other directorships and positions of the Baron:
Hawkley Oil and Gas Ltd (http://www.hawkleyoilandgas.com); (An oil exploration company based in Ukraine)
Minexco Petroleum Inc (http://www.minexcopetroleum.com); (An oil exploration company with a focus on West Africa - I have no idea if this is connected to his role as envoy mentioned above))
I would severely doubt that as that wouldn't be honest and that just wouldn't be cricket old boy!
Didn't the bould Davy Cameron, whilst in the midst of the Arab spring lead a business envoy to the middle east, most of which were Arms dealers tell you all you need to know about the Wests interests in that region.
Yeah that was in Cairo as the dust was still in the air following the fall of Mubarak
Quote from: johnneycool on May 28, 2014, 03:01:26 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 28, 2014, 02:57:20 PM
Does anyone want to actually have a discussion on Syria ? One that focuses on what should be done now and in the future.
Simplistic criticism of the US is all well and good but it won't achieve anything. What role should the UN play, should Russia or China attempt to do something or should the conflict just be allowed to take its course.
btw, this is a question for the board. There is no point in trying to have a rational discussion with those other two.
What can be done? Send in a UN peace keeping force, but who would that involve and how would the conflict ultimately resolve itself when the peacekeepers are removed.Libya and Iraq are sectarian blood baths yet we all hailed democracy when the despot dictators were deposed by rebels, but democracy is still a long way off!
Why do the Arab league not do more or is there interests at work on both sides that we're not aware of? We only ever hear of Russia's self interests?
ok, having pointed out the issues and weighed up the pros and cons do you yourself think there should be an intervention or not ?
It is not impossible for a sectarian bloodbath to be resolved to some semblance of normality. I think its fair to say that the situation in the Balkans is a lot better than it was in the early 90's.
This is a vicious conflict. An external force would have to go in with real teeth. We all know that will never, ever happen with the UN. So if anything is to happen it would have to be done by a country with real military capability that is sanctioned by the UN. So if we rule out the US and the UK then you are left with
France
Russia
China
along with some smaller militaries like
Australia (??)
Canada
anyone else ??
(and, hypothetically speaking, lets assume these countries are willing to participate)
Of course the other option is to do nothing. That is, as harsh as it sounds, a perfectly valid option. It's not the one I'd pick myself but it has strong points in its favor. It would mean that Syrias future is decided primariliy by Syrians (notwithstanding the interference of Iran etc) however brutally they choose to resolve it. However, if that IS your opinion I think you should state it categorically and also you must stay consistent. You can't say "they should do nothing" and then come back later and start criticizing countries like the US for not doing anything.
btw can you clarify what you meant by "We only ever hear of Russia's self interests" . All of the replies since I posted have been, as usual, about the western involvement in Libya or Egypt, links to oil all the usual stuff. Not one of them mentioned any Russian self interest. Iran was also mentioned but absolutely no actual criticism of their interference was made.
(None of them addressed what, if anything, should be done about Syria either ::)).
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/irish-family-distraught-as-son-joins-syrias-rebels-30403842.html
Derry men in Syria.
Ah they're outta the championship, they might as well head off for the summer
Quote from: haranguerer on July 03, 2014, 10:09:14 AM
Ah they're outta the championship, they might as well head off for the summer
Boston, San Fran or Philly would be better crack surely ?.
Climate change seems have been one of the catalysts for the war in Syria
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jul/02/water-key-conflict-iraq-syria-isis
"Increasing temperatures, one of the longest and most severe droughts in 50 years and the steady drying up of farmland as rainfall diminishes have been identified as factors in the political destabilisation of Syria.
Both Isis forces and President Assad's army are said to have used water tactics to control the city of Aleppo. The Tishrin Dam on the Euphrates, 60 miles east of the city, was captured by Isis in November 2012.
The use of water as a tactical weapon has been used widely by both Isis and the Syrian government, says Nouar Shamout, a researcher with Chatham House. "Syria's essential services are on the brink of collapse under the burden of continuous assault on critical water infrastructure. The stranglehold of Isis, neglect by the regime, and an eighth summer of drought may combine to create a water and food crisis which would escalate fatalities and migration rates in the country's ongoing three-year conflict," he said.
"The deliberate targeting of water supply networks ... is now a daily occurrence in the conflict. The water pumping station in Al-Khafsah, Aleppo, stopped working on 10 May, cutting off water supply to half of the city. It is unclear who was responsible; both the regime and opposition forces blame each other, but unsurprisingly in a city home to almost three million people the incident caused panic and chaos. Some people even resorted to drinking from puddles in the streets," he said .
Water will now be the key to who controls Iraq in future, said former US intelligence officer Jennifer Dyer on US television last week. "If Isis has any hope of establishing itself on territory, it has to control some water. In arid Iraq, water and lines of strategic approach are the same thing"."
Well, they are going to need water in that Sunni homeland you've been advocating...you know, the one you refuse to give details on.
Quote from: orangeman on July 03, 2014, 10:23:56 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 03, 2014, 10:09:14 AM
Ah they're outta the championship, they might as well head off for the summer
Boston, San Fran or Philly would be better crack surely ?.
It would seem not, for him.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 03, 2014, 12:03:34 PM
Well, they are going to need water in that Sunni homeland you've been advocating...you know, the one you refuse to give details on.
Does your ADD/Tourettes routine work on women ? It's not very good on men.
Quote from: seafoid on July 03, 2014, 02:17:03 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 03, 2014, 12:03:34 PM
Well, they are going to need water in that Sunni homeland you've been advocating...you know, the one you refuse to give details on.
Does your ADD/Tourettes routine work on women ? It's not very good on men.
ha, ha. Good one. I'll bet the Israelis think you are a gas man as well.
Looks like the game is up in Aleppo, East has been split in two, even the Kurds are giving Assad a hand now
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 27, 2016, 09:50:37 PM
Looks like the game is up in Aleppo, East has been split in two, even the Kurds are giving Assad a hand now
How?
Quote from: trileacman on November 28, 2016, 12:57:57 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 27, 2016, 09:50:37 PM
Looks like the game is up in Aleppo, East has been split in two, even the Kurds are giving Assad a hand now
How?
They're controlling some of the districts neighbouring theirs in Aleppo that where under FSA control before the current pro-government advance.... there must have been some sort of agreement in place there for months, the Kurdish district hasn't been touched by pro-gov forces while the rest of East Aleppo has been pounded.
Now that I think about it there is maybe a wider agreement for some sort of autonomy for the Kurds under an Assad regime. Id imagine its something that Russia and the US actually agree on. Also probably why the Turks got involved to reduce or destroy PKK gains. Not sure what the Turks will do with the land long term, I would imagine they'd find it difficult to just give it back to Assad.
It's time we heard the truth about how ruthless Aleppo rebels shot civilians who tried to leave
Robert Fisk
Western politicians, "experts" and journalists are going to have to reboot their stories over the next few days now that Bashar al-Assad's army has retaken control of eastern Aleppo. We are going to find out if the 250,000 civilians "trapped" in the city were indeed that numerous.
We are going to hear far more about why they were not able to leave when the Syrian government and Russian air force staged their ferocious bombardment of the eastern part of the city.
And we're going to learn a lot more about the 'rebels', whom many in the West - the US, Britain and our head-chopping mates in the Gulf - have been supporting.
They did, after all, include al-Qa'ida (alias Jabhat al-Nusra, alias Jabhat Fateh al-Sham), the "folk" - as George W Bush called them - who committed the crimes against humanity in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania on September 11, 2001. Remember the War on Terror? Remember the "pure evil" of al-Qa'ida? Remember all the warnings from the security services in the UK about how al-Qa'ida can still strike terror in London?
Not when the rebels, including al-Qa'ida, were bravely defending east Aleppo, we didn't - because a powerful tale of heroism, democracy and suffering was being woven for us, a narrative of good guys versus bad guys as explosive and dishonest as "weapons of mass destruction".
Back in the days of Saddam Hussein - when a few of us argued that the illegal invasion of Iraq would lead to catastrophe, and that Tony Blair and George Bush were taking us down the path to perdition - it was incumbent upon us, always, to profess our repugnance of Saddam and his regime.
So here goes the usual mantra again, which we must repeat ad nauseam to avoid the usual hate mail and abuse that will today be cast at anyone veering away from the approved and deeply flawed version of the Syrian tragedy.
Yes, Bashar al-Assad has brutally destroyed vast tracts of his cities in his battle against those who wish to overthrow his regime. Yes, that regime has a multitude of sins to its name: torture, executions, secret prisons, the killing of civilians, and - if we include the Syrian militia thugs under nominal control of the regime - a frightening version of ethnic cleansing.
Yes, we should fear for the lives of the courageous doctors of eastern Aleppo and the people for whom they have been caring. And let's remember how the UN grimly reported it had been told of 82 civilians "massacred" in their homes in the last 24 hours.
If Mr Assad takes eastern Aleppo, he thinks he will have won the war
But it's time to tell the other truth: that many of the "rebels" whom we in the West have been supporting are among the cruellest and most ruthless of fighters in the Middle East. And while we have been tut-tutting at the frightfulness of Isil during the siege of Mosul, we have been wilfully ignoring the behaviour of the rebels of Aleppo.
Only a few weeks ago, I interviewed one of the very first Muslim families to flee eastern Aleppo during a ceasefire. The father had just been told that his brother was to be executed by the rebels because he crossed the frontline with his wife and son. He condemned the rebels for closing the schools and putting weapons close to hospitals. And he was no pro-regime stooge.
Around the same time, Syrian soldiers were privately expressing their belief to me that the Americans would allow Isil to leave Mosul to again attack the regime in Syria. Well, so it came to pass. In three vast columns of suicide trucks and thousands of armed supporters, Isil has just swarmed across the desert from Mosul in Iraq, and from Raqqa and Deir ez-Zour in eastern Syria to seize the beautiful city of Palmyra all over again.
It is highly instructive to look at our reporting of these two parallel events. Almost every headline today speaks of the "fall" of Aleppo to the Syrian army - when in any other circumstances, we would have surely said that the army had "recaptured" it from the "rebels" - while Isil was reported to have "recaptured" Palmyra when (given their own murderous behaviour) we should surely have announced that the Roman city had "fallen" once more under their grotesque rule.
Words matter. These are the men - our "chaps", I suppose, if we keep to the current jihadi narrative - who after their first occupation of the city last year beheaded the 82-year-old scholar who tried to protect the Roman treasures and then placed his spectacles back on his decapitated head.
By their own admission, Russia flew 64 bombing sorties against the Isil attackers outside Palmyra. Given the huge columns of dust thrown up by the Isil convoys, why didn't the US Air Force join in the bombardment of their greatest enemy? For some reason, the US satellites and drones and intelligence just didn't spot them - any more than they did when Isil drove identical convoys of suicide trucks to seize Palmyra when they first took the city in May 2015.
Syrian officers told me in Palmyra earlier this year that Isil would never be allowed to return. There was a Russian military base in the city. Russian aircraft flew overhead. A Russian orchestra had just played in the Roman ruins to celebrate Palmyra's liberation.
So what happened? Most likely is that the Syrian military simply didn't have the manpower to defend Palmyra while closing in on eastern Aleppo. They will have to take Palmyra back - quickly.
But back to Aleppo. The familiar and now tired political-journalistic narrative is in need of refreshing. The evidence has been clear for some days. After months of condemning the iniquities of the Syrian regime while obscuring the identity and brutality of its opponents in Aleppo, the human rights organisations - sniffing defeat for the rebels - began only a few days ago to spread their criticism to include the defenders of eastern Aleppo.
Take the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights. After last week running through its usual - and perfectly understandable - fears for the civilians and medical workers of eastern Aleppo, and for civilians subject to government reprisals and for "hundreds of men" who may have gone missing after crossing the frontlines, the UN suddenly expressed other concerns.
"During the last two weeks, Fatah al-Sham Front [in other words, al-Qa'ida] and the Abu Amara Battalion are alleged to have abducted and killed an unknown number of civilians who requested the armed groups to leave their neighbourhoods, to spare the lives of civilians . . ." it stated.
"We also received reports that between November 30 and December 1, opposition groups fired on civilians attempting to leave."
Furthermore, "indiscriminate attacks" on civilian areas of government-held western as well as 'rebel' eastern Aleppo took place.
I suspect we shall be hearing more of this in the coming days. (© Independent News Service)
Independent News Service
Syria will be hard to rule if there is no power for the Sunni majority. Russia wants its naval Base and Iran wants continuous access to Hezbollah territory in Lebanon. Assad Iran and Hezbollah are all Shia.
There are millions of Sunnis in Syria and Iraq with no representation.
This Syria situation seems to becoming more grave by the day. I find it hard to understand why, when the war is almost over, Assad would do this. Is it beyond the bounds of possibility that the Israelis might have done it given that they seem to have most to gain from mayhem within their Arab neighbours
It certainly stinks alright.
How soon before Israel "defends itself" by seizing a wipe of Syrian territory?
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on April 11, 2018, 12:37:35 PM
I find it hard to understand why, when the war is almost over, Assad would do this.
Why?
Why do you think Russia would deny that such an attack even happened at all?
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on April 11, 2018, 12:37:35 PM
This Syria situation seems to becoming more grave by the day. I find it hard to understand why, when the war is almost over, Assad would do this. Is it beyond the bounds of possibility that the Israelis might have done it given that they seem to have most to gain from mayhem within their Arab neighbours
It's sad that it's not beyond belief that anyone would think that Assad is behind this.
Trump announces that he's puling out of Syria, East Ghouta almost back under full government control, predictions over the past few months from within Syria that a false flag is on the way. If it wasn't so tragic it'd be funny. It's bad when Tucker Carlson is the voice of reason, although I always find him funny.
The yanks have recently admitted that they have no evidence that Assad was responsible for the last alleged chemical attack almost exactly a year ago. They care so little that they just churn out the same shit again and expect it to be believed. And why, because it f**king works.
Quote from: Esmarelda on April 11, 2018, 01:11:20 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on April 11, 2018, 12:37:35 PM
This Syria situation seems to becoming more grave by the day. I find it hard to understand why, when the war is almost over, Assad would do this. Is it beyond the bounds of possibility that the Israelis might have done it given that they seem to have most to gain from mayhem within their Arab neighbours
It's sad that it's not beyond belief that anyone would think that Assad is behind this.
Trump announces that he's puling out of Syria, East Ghouta almost back under full government control, predictions over the past few months from within Syria that a false flag is on the way. If it wasn't so tragic it'd be funny. It's bad when Tucker Carlson is the voice of reason, although I always find him funny.
The yanks have recently admitted that they have no evidence that Assad was responsible for the last alleged chemical attack almost exactly a year ago. They care so little that they just churn out the same shit again and expect it to be believed. And why, because it f**king works.
What's much more sad is the Homer Simpson eating doughnuts-esque ability of people to relentlessly swallow Russian propaganda whole.
The OPCW and the UN have concluded that the 2017 chemical attack was down to Assad.
Remember now, the Russians have said there was no chemical attack last weekend
at all.
The Russians are just so trustworthy...
The conspiracy theorists on this board never cease to amaze
Chemical attack in an area Russia has no control over (Salisbury)
Russia: "We need access to verify the agent used"
Conspiracy Theorist" It cant be Russia because there is no independent proof. It must be X"
Chemical attack in an are a Russia has some control over
Russia: "No one is getting access to verify the Agent used"
Conspiracy Theorist" It cant be Russia because they say so. It must be X"
Can anybody provide any reasoning they have as to why anything Russia says should be believed?
Quote from: sid waddell on April 11, 2018, 01:52:12 PM
Can anybody provide any reasoning they have as to why anything Russia says should be believed?
No but why believe Britain or America with their pasts WMD?
You can't believe any of them to be frank.
Quote from: longballin on April 11, 2018, 02:04:38 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on April 11, 2018, 01:52:12 PM
Can anybody provide any reasoning they have as to why anything Russia says should be believed?
No but why believe Britain or America with their pasts WMD?
Cool. So there is no reasoning for believing anything Russia says, except for whataboutery.
What about what the OPCW and the UN say? What about what EU countries say?
Should that be believed?
I'm trying to find some rationale for the bizarre rushing of some posters to always believe the Russian narrative, when pretty much all evidence of recent years suggests that anything Russia and its propaganda outlets say should be treated as a lie unless proven otherwise.
Quote from: magpie seanie on April 11, 2018, 02:09:44 PM
You can't believe any of them to be frank.
Lies tend to be found out in countries with a free press.
What institutions exist in Russia to expose government lies and hold them to account?
Quote from: sid waddell on April 11, 2018, 02:16:29 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on April 11, 2018, 02:09:44 PM
You can't believe any of them to be frank.
Lies tend to be found out in countries with a free press.
What institutions exist in Russia to expose government lies and hold them to account?
I don't agree. There are many lies that governments peddle that are not proven otherwise. Who bombed Dublin and Monaghan in 1974 for example? Also - I'm not sure what you mean by a "free press".....do we have that in Ireland or in Britain or America? We may have the appearance of it but it's being worn away all the time. I know little about Russia, I'd have my doubts they do either.
I'm under no illusions that Russia is not to be trusted. I just realise the UK and USA aren't to be trusted either.
Quote from: magpie seanie on April 11, 2018, 02:22:12 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on April 11, 2018, 02:16:29 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on April 11, 2018, 02:09:44 PM
You can't believe any of them to be frank.
Lies tend to be found out in countries with a free press.
What institutions exist in Russia to expose government lies and hold them to account?
I don't agree. There are many lies that governments peddle that are not proven otherwise. Who bombed Dublin and Monaghan in 1974 for example? Also - I'm not sure what you mean by a "free press".....do we have that in Ireland or in Britain or America? We may have the appearance of it but it's being worn away all the time. I know little about Russia, I'd have my doubts they do either.
I'm under no illusions that Russia is not to be trusted. I just realise the UK and USA aren't to be trusted either.
In comparison to Russia, the press we have is indeed extremely free. That is very far from saying it is perfect or that there are not problems with it.
A democratic system does indeed have a happy knack of exposing lies.
Bloody Sunday, Hillsborough, Iraq, all lies, all exposed.
Could such lies have been exposed in Russia?
Why is Russia so keen to spread disinformation in the west?
False equivalence is a cancer in public discourse.
Quote from: sid waddell on April 11, 2018, 02:34:25 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on April 11, 2018, 02:22:12 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on April 11, 2018, 02:16:29 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on April 11, 2018, 02:09:44 PM
You can't believe any of them to be frank.
Lies tend to be found out in countries with a free press.
What institutions exist in Russia to expose government lies and hold them to account?
I don't agree. There are many lies that governments peddle that are not proven otherwise. Who bombed Dublin and Monaghan in 1974 for example? Also - I'm not sure what you mean by a "free press".....do we have that in Ireland or in Britain or America? We may have the appearance of it but it's being worn away all the time. I know little about Russia, I'd have my doubts they do either.
I'm under no illusions that Russia is not to be trusted. I just realise the UK and USA aren't to be trusted either.
In comparison to Russia, the press we have is indeed extremely free. That is very far from saying it is perfect or that there are not problems with it.
A democratic system does indeed have a happy knack of exposing lies.
Bloody Sunday, Hillsborough, Iraq, all lies, all exposed.
Could such lies have been exposed in Russia?
Why is Russia so keen to spread disinformation in the west?
False equivalence is a cancer in public discourse.
Absolutely. So's groupthink and blind acceptance.
Sid, although Russia is clearly a player in Syria, this thread is entitled "Syria". It was resurrected today and in two hours you've posted sevn posts and mentioned Russia nine times despite nobody else mentioning Russia, except in response to you.
There's little need for this thread to be turned into a You v Russia thread. There are others out there. It's clear; Russia can't be defended without whataboutery being used. Understood.
Does anyone, including Sid, have any reason or logic to believe why Assad would have committed this crime (without mentioning Russia)? Does anyone have any evidence that the crime happened? In the latter case, I've read reports that doctors reported casualties suffering from symptoms likely caused by a chemical attack. Conversely, I've read reports that hospitals have received no patients with these symptoms. Which should I believe and why?
Additionally, if Assad is 100% guilty of this alleged crime, does anyone think they should be attacked and to what end?
Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2018, 12:40:14 PM
It certainly stinks alright.
How soon before Israel "defends itself" by seizing a wipe of Syrian territory?
Another wipe. It already has taken the Golan Heights
Given their ties to Iran, Lebanon is ripe for an attack in any upcoming attacks on Syria
Especially by Israel or it's proxies
Quote from: magpie seanie on April 11, 2018, 02:41:02 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on April 11, 2018, 02:34:25 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on April 11, 2018, 02:22:12 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on April 11, 2018, 02:16:29 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on April 11, 2018, 02:09:44 PM
You can't believe any of them to be frank.
Lies tend to be found out in countries with a free press.
What institutions exist in Russia to expose government lies and hold them to account?
I don't agree. There are many lies that governments peddle that are not proven otherwise. Who bombed Dublin and Monaghan in 1974 for example? Also - I'm not sure what you mean by a "free press".....do we have that in Ireland or in Britain or America? We may have the appearance of it but it's being worn away all the time. I know little about Russia, I'd have my doubts they do either.
I'm under no illusions that Russia is not to be trusted. I just realise the UK and USA aren't to be trusted either.
In comparison to Russia, the press we have is indeed extremely free. That is very far from saying it is perfect or that there are not problems with it.
A democratic system does indeed have a happy knack of exposing lies.
Bloody Sunday, Hillsborough, Iraq, all lies, all exposed.
Could such lies have been exposed in Russia?
Why is Russia so keen to spread disinformation in the west?
False equivalence is a cancer in public discourse.
Absolutely. So's groupthink and blind acceptance.
Apparently accepting what the OPCW and the UN say constitutes "groupthink and blind acceptance" now, eh. Deary me.
Quote from: Esmarelda on April 11, 2018, 02:52:57 PM
Sid, although Russia is clearly a player in Syria, this thread is entitled "Syria". It was resurrected today and in two hours you've posted sevn posts and mentioned Russia nine times despite nobody else mentioning Russia, except in response to you.
There's little need for this thread to be turned into a You v Russia thread. There are others out there. It's clear; Russia can't be defended without whataboutery being used. Understood.
Does anyone, including Sid, have any reason or logic to believe why Assad would have committed this crime (without mentioning Russia)? Does anyone have any evidence that the crime happened? In the latter case, I've read reports that doctors reported casualties suffering from symptoms likely caused by a chemical attack. Conversely, I've read reports that hospitals have received no patients with these symptoms. Which should I believe and why?
Additionally, if Assad is 100% guilty of this alleged crime, does anyone think they should be attacked and to what end?
Russia gets mentioned because they are inextricably linked to the situation in Syria - Assad is their puppet. If you want to airbrush this fact, fire ahead by all means but don't expect your view to be taken seriously, especially when your contributions to anything involving Russia appear to be nothing more than to parrot whatever line the Russian government is taking, as you do again here.
Barbarity and forced ethnic cleansing is all the logic Assad and his Russian paymasters need for an attack such as this, especially after Trump said he wanted US troops out of Syria.
Last year there was a similar chemical attack after Trump said the US was not interested in ousting Assad.
The OPCW and the UN concluded that Assad was behind that attack.
But sure, far better to listen to RT and other shameless Russian propaganda.
Putin uses chemical weapons as a dog whistle for Trump. Last week Trump announced he was pulling the US out of Syria. Analysts were asking what this would mean for the Kurds. This week Trump is tweeting about missiles.
"White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders is grilled by the US media on just what Donald Trump means by his tweet on the Syria crisis telling Russia that the missiles 'will be coming'. She opens by saying it means 'we have a number of options and all those options are still on the table. Final decisions haven't been made yet.' When asked how this can mean anything but an impending airstrike, she replies: 'That's certainly one option but that doesn't mean it's the only option.' She insisted there was 'a lot there that you can read from' the tweet."
https://youtu.be/qFLhGq0060w
Trump is a f**king idiot.
Quote from: sid waddell on April 12, 2018, 01:06:51 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on April 11, 2018, 02:41:02 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on April 11, 2018, 02:34:25 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on April 11, 2018, 02:22:12 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on April 11, 2018, 02:16:29 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on April 11, 2018, 02:09:44 PM
You can't believe any of them to be frank.
Lies tend to be found out in countries with a free press.
What institutions exist in Russia to expose government lies and hold them to account?
I don't agree. There are many lies that governments peddle that are not proven otherwise. Who bombed Dublin and Monaghan in 1974 for example? Also - I'm not sure what you mean by a "free press".....do we have that in Ireland or in Britain or America? We may have the appearance of it but it's being worn away all the time. I know little about Russia, I'd have my doubts they do either.
I'm under no illusions that Russia is not to be trusted. I just realise the UK and USA aren't to be trusted either.
In comparison to Russia, the press we have is indeed extremely free. That is very far from saying it is perfect or that there are not problems with it.
A democratic system does indeed have a happy knack of exposing lies.
Bloody Sunday, Hillsborough, Iraq, all lies, all exposed.
Could such lies have been exposed in Russia?
Why is Russia so keen to spread disinformation in the west?
False equivalence is a cancer in public discourse.
Absolutely. So's groupthink and blind acceptance.
Apparently accepting what the OPCW and the UN say constitutes "groupthink and blind acceptance" now, eh. Deary me.
That's not what I said and you know it. We were having a general discussion and then you made the leap that I was talking about a specific issue. Come on, you're better than that.
I wouldn't believe the Russians too much. I just also have little faith in the US and UK's ability to stick to the truth either. Maybe the difference with the west is that the truth gets found out long after the damage is done like the cases you mention above. I think labelling my view as a false equivalence is a bit of a stretch......all these governments are well fit to and have previous when it comes to telling convenient lies.
Quote from: seafoid on April 12, 2018, 07:48:00 AM
Putin uses chemical weapons as a dog whistle for Trump. Last week Trump announced he was pulling the US out of Syria. Analysts were asking what this would mean for the Kurds. This week Trump is tweeting about missiles.
"White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders is grilled by the US media on just what Donald Trump means by his tweet on the Syria crisis telling Russia that the missiles 'will be coming'. She opens by saying it means 'we have a number of options and all those options are still on the table. Final decisions haven't been made yet.' When asked how this can mean anything but an impending airstrike, she replies: 'That's certainly one option but that doesn't mean it's the only option.' She insisted there was 'a lot there that you can read from' the tweet."
https://youtu.be/qFLhGq0060w
Trump is a f**king idiot.
That's a woman that certainly has to earn her wages
Quote from: sid waddell on April 12, 2018, 01:17:27 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on April 11, 2018, 02:52:57 PM
Sid, although Russia is clearly a player in Syria, this thread is entitled "Syria". It was resurrected today and in two hours you've posted sevn posts and mentioned Russia nine times despite nobody else mentioning Russia, except in response to you.
There's little need for this thread to be turned into a You v Russia thread. There are others out there. It's clear; Russia can't be defended without whataboutery being used. Understood.
Does anyone, including Sid, have any reason or logic to believe why Assad would have committed this crime (without mentioning Russia)? Does anyone have any evidence that the crime happened? In the latter case, I've read reports that doctors reported casualties suffering from symptoms likely caused by a chemical attack. Conversely, I've read reports that hospitals have received no patients with these symptoms. Which should I believe and why?
Additionally, if Assad is 100% guilty of this alleged crime, does anyone think they should be attacked and to what end?
Russia gets mentioned because they are inextricably linked to the situation in Syria - Assad is their puppet. If you want to airbrush this fact, fire ahead by all means but don't expect your view to be taken seriously, especially when your contributions to anything involving Russia appear to be nothing more than to parrot whatever line the Russian government is taking, as you do again here.
Barbarity and forced ethnic cleansing is all the logic Assad and his Russian paymasters need for an attack such as this, especially after Trump said he wanted US troops out of Syria.
Last year there was a similar chemical attack after Trump said the US was not interested in ousting Assad.
The OPCW and the UN concluded that Assad was behind that attack.
But sure, far better to listen to RT and other shameless Russian propaganda.
I have to hand it to you Sid, you're one in a million. I kind of knew after my post that I shouldn't have bothered. We live and learn I guess.
Just one thing, if only because I actually do like to hear differing views on things, regardless of how rigid they are; could you explain the logic, if there is any, about the bit in bold above? See if you can do it without using the R word. :)
Quote from: Esmarelda on April 12, 2018, 09:43:00 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on April 12, 2018, 01:17:27 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on April 11, 2018, 02:52:57 PM
Sid, although Russia is clearly a player in Syria, this thread is entitled "Syria". It was resurrected today and in two hours you've posted sevn posts and mentioned Russia nine times despite nobody else mentioning Russia, except in response to you.
There's little need for this thread to be turned into a You v Russia thread. There are others out there. It's clear; Russia can't be defended without whataboutery being used. Understood.
Does anyone, including Sid, have any reason or logic to believe why Assad would have committed this crime (without mentioning Russia)? Does anyone have any evidence that the crime happened? In the latter case, I've read reports that doctors reported casualties suffering from symptoms likely caused by a chemical attack. Conversely, I've read reports that hospitals have received no patients with these symptoms. Which should I believe and why?
Additionally, if Assad is 100% guilty of this alleged crime, does anyone think they should be attacked and to what end?
Russia gets mentioned because they are inextricably linked to the situation in Syria - Assad is their puppet. If you want to airbrush this fact, fire ahead by all means but don't expect your view to be taken seriously, especially when your contributions to anything involving Russia appear to be nothing more than to parrot whatever line the Russian government is taking, as you do again here.
Barbarity and forced ethnic cleansing is all the logic Assad and his Russian paymasters need for an attack such as this, especially after Trump said he wanted US troops out of Syria.
Last year there was a similar chemical attack after Trump said the US was not interested in ousting Assad.
The OPCW and the UN concluded that Assad was behind that attack.
But sure, far better to listen to RT and other shameless Russian propaganda.
I have to hand it to you Sid, you're one in a million. I kind of knew after my post that I shouldn't have bothered. We live and learn I guess.
Just one thing, if only because I actually do like to hear differing views on things, regardless of how rigid they are; could you explain the logic, if there is any, about the bit in bold above? See if you can do it without using the R word. :)
You probably shouldn't have bothered, because you're not contributing anything except the Russian propaganda line.
And again, you don't get to decide what gets discussed merely because you've decided to assume to role play an RT presenter.
There's a piece of basic logic you're missing here: when your "enemy" shows weakness, that's when you attack.
But Trump is a stooge.
Putin and Assad are playing him like a fiddle. So are the neo-cons.
Trump doesn't know whether he's coming or going. On the one hand he has to appease his Russian paymasters, yet on the other, he has to appease the neo-con nut jobs. He's an unpredictable idiot who, like a 12 year old, is ruled by his moods.
Now, why does Russia flat out deny that a chemical attack took place?
Is Assad engaging in barbarity and ethnic cleansing?
Are the Russians helping him in this?
If you could answer those questions, that would be great.
Quote from: sid waddell on April 12, 2018, 12:06:56 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on April 12, 2018, 09:43:00 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on April 12, 2018, 01:17:27 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on April 11, 2018, 02:52:57 PM
Sid, although Russia is clearly a player in Syria, this thread is entitled "Syria". It was resurrected today and in two hours you've posted sevn posts and mentioned Russia nine times despite nobody else mentioning Russia, except in response to you.
There's little need for this thread to be turned into a You v Russia thread. There are others out there. It's clear; Russia can't be defended without whataboutery being used. Understood.
Does anyone, including Sid, have any reason or logic to believe why Assad would have committed this crime (without mentioning Russia)? Does anyone have any evidence that the crime happened? In the latter case, I've read reports that doctors reported casualties suffering from symptoms likely caused by a chemical attack. Conversely, I've read reports that hospitals have received no patients with these symptoms. Which should I believe and why?
Additionally, if Assad is 100% guilty of this alleged crime, does anyone think they should be attacked and to what end?
Russia gets mentioned because they are inextricably linked to the situation in Syria - Assad is their puppet. If you want to airbrush this fact, fire ahead by all means but don't expect your view to be taken seriously, especially when your contributions to anything involving Russia appear to be nothing more than to parrot whatever line the Russian government is taking, as you do again here.
Barbarity and forced ethnic cleansing is all the logic Assad and his Russian paymasters need for an attack such as this, especially after Trump said he wanted US troops out of Syria.
Last year there was a similar chemical attack after Trump said the US was not interested in ousting Assad.
The OPCW and the UN concluded that Assad was behind that attack.
But sure, far better to listen to RT and other shameless Russian propaganda.
I have to hand it to you Sid, you're one in a million. I kind of knew after my post that I shouldn't have bothered. We live and learn I guess.
Just one thing, if only because I actually do like to hear differing views on things, regardless of how rigid they are; could you explain the logic, if there is any, about the bit in bold above? See if you can do it without using the R word. :)
You probably shouldn't have bothered, because you're not contributing anything except the Russian propaganda line.
And again, you don't get to decide what gets discussed merely because you've decided to assume to role play an RT presenter.
There's a piece of basic logic you're missing here: when your "enemy" shows weakness, that's when you attack.
But Trump is a stooge.
Putin and Assad are playing him like a fiddle. So are the neo-cons.
Trump doesn't know whether he's coming or going. On the one hand he has to appease his Russian paymasters, yet on the other, he has to appease the neo-con nut jobs. He's an unpredictable idiot who, like a 12 year old, is ruled by his moods.
Now, why does Russia flat out deny that a chemical attack took place?
Is Assad engaging in barbarity and ethnic cleansing?
Are the Russians helping him in this?
If you could answer those questions, that would be great.
I didn't say I decided anything. I suggested that this thread shouldn't turn into a you v Russia thread. You seem to have a serious issue reading what's in front of you, but little issue with interpreting it to suit your views which are 100% immovable. I regret posting because I knew this already, but we all have our weaknesses. Post what you want to your heart's content. Copy and paste is useful though.
So your theory is that Assad carried out the chemical attack because of the "basic logic"of attack when your enemy is weak? Do you apply that across the board or just when it suits? I mean because you believe in this logic, does that mean that there is 100% no other reason, such as the reason being suggested of a false flag? You're sure? If Putin wasn't suggesting it, maybe you'd give it a small chance of being possible?
And here's the really easy bit, answering your questions:
Now, why does Russia flat out deny that a chemical attack took place? I don't know. Maybe because the believe it didn't. Maybe they're murdering b**tards. How would I know?
Is Assad engaging in barbarity and ethnic cleansing? No idea. What ethnicity do you think he's cleansing?
Are the Russians helping him in this? They're certainly helping him, you'd have to refer to my previous answer.
Quote from: Esmarelda on April 12, 2018, 12:40:48 PM
Is Assad engaging in barbarity and ethnic cleansing? No idea.
I'll just leave that there.
No more needs to be said about your agenda.
Quote from: sid waddell on April 12, 2018, 02:58:35 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on April 12, 2018, 12:40:48 PM
Is Assad engaging in barbarity and ethnic cleansing? No idea.
I'll just leave that there.
No more needs to be said about your agenda.
Classic stuff. Someone doesn't know something and they have an agenda. And of course you didn't answer who it was he was cleansing. Let me know when you make it back from Syria with the evidence. Actually, don't. :-X
Quote from: Esmarelda on April 12, 2018, 03:02:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on April 12, 2018, 02:58:35 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on April 12, 2018, 12:40:48 PM
Is Assad engaging in barbarity and ethnic cleansing? No idea.
I'll just leave that there.
No more needs to be said about your agenda.
Classic stuff. Someone doesn't know something and they have an agenda. And of course you didn't answer who it was he was cleansing. Let me know when you make it back from Syria with the evidence. Actually, don't. :-X
You're a comedy act.
Let me guess, you read Eva Bartlett? ;D
Press reporting some form of "strikes" in Syria this weekend.
With the Russians intermingled with the Syrians and allegedly Syria having a "first world" aerial defence shield in place this could all kick off.
Thankfully Trump is too embroiled in allegations of paying off porn stars to give it his full attention................
Reports coming out of Syria that Russia has offered to remove Hezbollah and all Iranian mercenaries out of Syria if the US holds off on bombing.
Not sure what Russia would gain from weakening Assads forces (if they did actually do as they are offering) except perhaps time.
Joint US, UK and French air attacks last night it seems, Syria already saying a lot of the missiles shot down.
What happens next, who knows!!!!
And so it starts.....
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 14, 2018, 10:23:53 AM
And so it starts.....
Nothing starts, nothing happens next and nothing changes. A token response from the West who haven't the balls to challenge Assad, Iran of Russia.
Quote from: trileacman on April 14, 2018, 10:32:52 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 14, 2018, 10:23:53 AM
And so it starts.....
Nothing starts, nothing happens next and nothing changes. A token response from the West who haven't the balls to challenge Assad, Iran of Russia.
Amy Siskind
@Amy_Siskind
·
6h
If Trump genuinely cared about the civilians dying in Syria, he would allow refugees into our country. Instead he cut Obama's 110k cap to 44k and has actually let in just 10k total refugees.
The war is more or less over. The regime dropped chemical weapons and the rebels were bussed out a short while later. The Russians know Trump will not do anything significant.
Iran now controls Iraq and Syria.
American power is fading. Trump is the piss take icing on top.
Former commander of British military in Iraq calling into question the chemical attacks on sky news (till they abruptly cut him off).
https://twitter.com/EL4JC/status/984789066569998338 (https://twitter.com/EL4JC/status/984789066569998338)
Not only were Israel central to last nights attacks on Syria, but it seems they have hit an Iranian base in Syria a short time ago....
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-trump-adviser-bolton-coordinated-u-s-led-strike-in-syria-with-israel-1.5995946
Independent journalist Robert Fisk in Douma shares his doubts about the gas attack.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-chemical-attack-gas-douma-robert-fisk-ghouta-damascus-a8307726.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-chemical-attack-gas-douma-robert-fisk-ghouta-damascus-a8307726.html)
Many, many journalists have been casting doubt over the attacks. Robert Fisk is obviously reputable enough for people to actually start questioning it. Of course he's relying on one man's version of events so it's hardly evidence. Not that any of it matters of course.
Quote from: Esmarelda on April 18, 2018, 08:14:07 AM
Many, many journalists have been casting doubt over the attacks. Robert Fisk is obviously reputable enough for people to actually start questioning it. Of course he's relying on one man's version of events so it's hardly evidence. Not that any of it matters of course.
It may only be one mans opinion but Fisk is considered one of the most knowledgeable and respected journalists covering the Middle East and his opinion has serious gravitas. It really brings into question the actions of the US, British and French governments
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 18, 2018, 09:02:21 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on April 18, 2018, 08:14:07 AM
Many, many journalists have been casting doubt over the attacks. Robert Fisk is obviously reputable enough for people to actually start questioning it. Of course he's relying on one man's version of events so it's hardly evidence. Not that any of it matters of course.
It may only be one mans opinion but Fisk is considered one of the most knowledgeable and respected journalists covering the Middle East and his opinion has serious gravitas. It really brings into question the actions of the US, British and French governments
My point was that it's good that it's in the mainstream media, but that it's strange how so many people seemed to have to wait for Fisk to write his article before there was any question marks over the attack.
Renowned conspiracy theorist Admiral Lord West calling into doubt the gas attacks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foj29LIXpy4&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foj29LIXpy4&feature=youtu.be)
When you threaten people with death you can cover up anything...
Quote
Syrian medics 'subjected to extreme intimidation' after Douma attack
Doctors say those who treated patients after attack have been told they and their families will be targeted if they speak out
The head of the largest medical relief agency in Syria claims that medics who responded to the suspected gas attack in Douma have been subjected to "extreme intimidation" by Syrian officials who seized biological samples, forced them to abandon patients and demanded their silence.
Dr Ghanem Tayara, the director of the Union of Medical Care and Relief Organisations (UOSSM) said doctors responsible for treating patients in the hours after the 7 April attack have been told that their families will be at risk if they offer public testimonies about what took place.
A number of doctors who spoke to the Guardian this week say the intimidation from the regime has increased in the past five days, a timeframe that coincides with the arrival in Damascus of a team from the Organisation for the Prevention of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), which aims to determine whether chemical weapons were used. All the medics insisted on anonymity, citing the fear for their lives and those of their families.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/17/syria-crisis-medics-intimidated-over-douma-gas-attack
If you have nothing to hide, why attack a UN reconnaissance team?
Quote
A UN security team doing reconnaissance at the site of an attack in the Syrian town of Douma has come under gunfire, the head of the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons has said, further delaying the arrival of chemical weapons inspectors.
The OPCW director general, Ahmet Üzümcü , told a meeting at the organisation's headquarters in The Hague on Wednesday that the security team had been forced to withdraw.
Üzümcü said that when a reconnaissance team arrived at one site, a large crowd gathered and the team withdrew. At a second site "the team came under small-arms fire and an explosive was detonated. The reconnaissance team returned to Damascus."
The delay in the inspectors' arrival, 10 days after the attack, will raise fresh concerns over the relevance of the OPCW investigation and possible evidence-tampering.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/18/arrival-of-chemical-inspectors-in-douma-delayed-by-gunfire
In every conflict there are 2 different 'truths'. Each side has their own 'truth'. It happened here for years in NI. I saw it at first hand. The propaganda machine of Assad and the western powers are in full flow. I would believe Robert Fisk, as I've read and listened to him an awful lot over the years and he comes across as a well versed and intelligent man who doesn't cow down to MSM tactics. That doesn't mean that everything he writes is absolutely correct but I give him a lot of credence. The reality is that there is an agenda here....presumably oil....and the only real winners will be the corporates in the oil and arms industry.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 18, 2018, 09:09:04 PM
In every conflict there are 2 different 'truths'. Each side has their own 'truth'. It happened here for years in NI. I saw it at first hand. The propaganda machine of Assad and the western powers are in full flow. I would believe Robert Fisk, as I've read and listened to him an awful lot over the years and he comes across as a well versed and intelligent man who doesn't cow down to MSM tactics. That doesn't mean that everything he writes is absolutely correct but I give him a lot of credence. The reality is that there is an agenda here....presumably oil....and the only real winners will be the corporates in the oil and arms industry.
Syria doesn't have much oïl
Russia wants to keep its base in Tartus which gives it access to the Med.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_naval_facility_in_Tartus
Iran wants to consolidate Shia power. Hezbollah are Lebansese Shia and Assad's sect is effectively Shia.
The Christians in Syria do not want Sunni rule.
The Sunnis are a mess (ISIS etc)
Quote from: seafoid on April 18, 2018, 09:15:36 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 18, 2018, 09:09:04 PM
In every conflict there are 2 different 'truths'. Each side has their own 'truth'. It happened here for years in NI. I saw it at first hand. The propaganda machine of Assad and the western powers are in full flow. I would believe Robert Fisk, as I've read and listened to him an awful lot over the years and he comes across as a well versed and intelligent man who doesn't cow down to MSM tactics. That doesn't mean that everything he writes is absolutely correct but I give him a lot of credence. The reality is that there is an agenda here....presumably oil....and the only real winners will be the corporates in the oil and arms industry.
Syria doesn't have much oïl
Russia wants to keep its base in Tartus which gives it access to the Med.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_naval_facility_in_Tartus
Iran wants to consolidate Shia power. Hezbollah are Lebansese Shia and Assad's sect is effectively Shia.
The Christians in Syria do not want Sunni rule.
The Sunnis are a mess (ISIS etc)
I'm has some levels of oil and is apparently one of the larger oil countries in the Middle East but it is a key strategic point for oil and gas pipelines. Like all countries in the area there are plenty of religious disputes but at the abckmofmit all these disputes are flames at this stage in history purely for economic reasons. The US and Russia would not be interested in this area unless there were financial or strategic benefits in it.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 18, 2018, 09:09:04 PM
In every conflict there are 2 different 'truths'. Each side has their own 'truth'. It happened here for years in NI. I saw it at first hand. The propaganda machine of Assad and the western powers are in full flow. I would believe Robert Fisk, as I've read and listened to him an awful lot over the years and he comes across as a well versed and intelligent man who doesn't cow down to MSM tactics. That doesn't mean that everything he writes is absolutely correct but I give him a lot of credence. The reality is that there is an agenda here....presumably oil....and the only real winners will be the corporates in the oil and arms industry.
Robert Fisk is a reputable journalist. He is also part of the "mainstream media", if that's what you want to call it.
I find it very interesting that those who generally dismiss "mainstream media" reports about what happens in Syria now accept a "mainstream media" report without question.
I also find it interesting that those who quote Fisk's article omit to mention that it states that the doctor he talked to used the same terms that the Syrian regime use.
Quote
As Dr Assim Rahaibani announces this extraordinary conclusion, it is worth observing that he is by his own admission not an eyewitness himself and, as he speaks good English, he refers twice to the jihadi gunmen of Jaish el-Islam [the Army of Islam] in Douma as "terrorists" – the regime's word for their enemies, and a term used by many people across Syria.
So I think we can say our doctor is not exactly an impartial observer, and it's pretty obvious Fisk knows this.
And given that so many people have been bussed out to Idlib, I think we can probably say with some certainty that it wouldn't be a great idea for those remaining to publicly voice opinions which go against the line of the Assad regime.
Fisk also says this:
Quote
France, meanwhile, has said it has "proof" chemical weapons were used, and US media have quoted sources saying urine and blood tests showed this too. The WHO has said its partners on the ground treated 500 patients "exhibiting signs and symptoms consistent with exposure to toxic chemicals".
At the same time, inspectors from the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) are currently blocked from coming here to the site of the alleged gas attack themselves, ostensibly because they lacked the correct UN permits.
The Syrian regime and the Russians say the area is "secured".
Yet a UN team has come under attack.
So, either the Syrians and the Russians are lying when they say the area is secured, or they were the ones attacking the UN team.
Why would they do this? ;D
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 18, 2018, 09:24:08 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 18, 2018, 09:15:36 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 18, 2018, 09:09:04 PM
In every conflict there are 2 different 'truths'. Each side has their own 'truth'. It happened here for years in NI. I saw it at first hand. The propaganda machine of Assad and the western powers are in full flow. I would believe Robert Fisk, as I've read and listened to him an awful lot over the years and he comes across as a well versed and intelligent man who doesn't cow down to MSM tactics. That doesn't mean that everything he writes is absolutely correct but I give him a lot of credence. The reality is that there is an agenda here....presumably oil....and the only real winners will be the corporates in the oil and arms industry.
Syria doesn't have much oïl
Russia wants to keep its base in Tartus which gives it access to the Med.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_naval_facility_in_Tartus
Iran wants to consolidate Shia power. Hezbollah are Lebansese Shia and Assad's sect is effectively Shia.
The Christians in Syria do not want Sunni rule.
The Sunnis are a mess (ISIS etc)
I'm has some levels of oil and is apparently one of the larger oil countries in the Middle East but it is a key strategic point for oil and gas pipelines. Like all countries in the area there are plenty of religious disputes but at the abckmofmit all these disputes are flames at this stage in history purely for economic reasons. The US and Russia would not be interested in this area unless there were financial or strategic benefits in it.
Yeah, but this conflict has been ongoing since 2011, and we still don't have western boots on the ground in any meaningful way.
For years people said that that was because Syria didn't have much oil.
Can't have it both ways.
I know Sid there are plenty of questions about the whole thing and I'm not going to attempt to portray myself as knowing much about it. I question both sides version of events. Like everything they all have agendas, as does Robert Fisk etc. The reality is that for all the information we receive we really know FA squared.
Not sure anyone here is taking Fisk's word without question. I posted a link to the article because it is by a reputable journalist calling into question the line that has been given in the media about gas attacks, and thus deserves attention. And because he, like the British military people I also linked, cannot be dismissed as a crank, conspiracy theorist or Russian puppet.
Regarding the gas attack, if that's what it was, the U.N. has claimed that both sides in Syria have used chemical weapons. http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/24/u-n-claims-syrian-regime-and-islamic-state-used-chemical-weapons/ (http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/24/u-n-claims-syrian-regime-and-islamic-state-used-chemical-weapons/). So if there was indeed a gas attack, it is hardly a huge leap to wonder whether the rebels rather than Assad's forces were behind it.
And in any event, to bomb Syria before examining evidence regarding what happened, well, that's back in "but Saddam has WMD, we know this" territory.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 18, 2018, 09:24:08 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 18, 2018, 09:15:36 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 18, 2018, 09:09:04 PM
In every conflict there are 2 different 'truths'. Each side has their own 'truth'. It happened here for years in NI. I saw it at first hand. The propaganda machine of Assad and the western powers are in full flow. I would believe Robert Fisk, as I've read and listened to him an awful lot over the years and he comes across as a well versed and intelligent man who doesn't cow down to MSM tactics. That doesn't mean that everything he writes is absolutely correct but I give him a lot of credence. The reality is that there is an agenda here....presumably oil....and the only real winners will be the corporates in the oil and arms industry.
Syria doesn't have much oïl
Russia wants to keep its base in Tartus which gives it access to the Med.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_naval_facility_in_Tartus
Iran wants to consolidate Shia power. Hezbollah are Lebansese Shia and Assad's sect is effectively Shia.
The Christians in Syria do not want Sunni rule.
The Sunnis are a mess (ISIS etc)
I'm has some levels of oil and is apparently one of the larger oil countries in the Middle East but it is a key strategic point for oil and gas pipelines. Like all countries in the area there are plenty of religious disputes but at the abckmofmit all these disputes are flames at this stage in history purely for economic reasons. The US and Russia would not be interested in this area unless there were financial or strategic benefits in it.
Syria is 59th
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_production
I think this is more geopolitical than anything else
US power is fading. Russia is messing. Iran is consolidating what it achieved in Iraq.
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on April 18, 2018, 10:20:22 PM
Not sure anyone here is taking Fisk's word without question. I posted a link to the article because it is by a reputable journalist calling into question the line that has been given in the media about gas attacks, and thus deserves attention. And because he, like the British military people I also linked, cannot be dismissed as a crank, conspiracy theorist or Russian puppet.
Regarding the gas attack, if that's what it was, the U.N. has claimed that both sides in Syria have used chemical weapons. http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/24/u-n-claims-syrian-regime-and-islamic-state-used-chemical-weapons/ (http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/24/u-n-claims-syrian-regime-and-islamic-state-used-chemical-weapons/). So if there was indeed a gas attack, it is hardly a huge leap to wonder whether the rebels rather than Assad's forces were behind it.
And in any event, to bomb Syria before examining evidence regarding what happened, well, that's back in "but Saddam has WMD, we know this" territory.
Yeah but the same questions were asked after last year's chemical attack.
"Why would Assad's regime do this now"?
They did.
CBS News went to Douma and found this.
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/15B14/production/_100925888_de27.jpg)
They also found people who backed up that it was a chemical attack.
Quote
Douma was the last rebel-held town near Damascus, and the attack led to the weekend missile strikes by the U.S., Britain and France, targeting Syria's alleged chemical weapons facilities. On Monday, CBS News made it to the house where the suspected chemical attack took place.
"All of a sudden some gas spread around us," one neighbor recounted. "We couldn't breathe, it smelled like chlorine."
Quote
CBS News correspondent Seth Doane was one of the first Western journalists to reach the site of the alleged chemical attack in Douma -- brought to the heavily damaged building by Syrian security forces. He found residents who spoke of choking on acrid gas after a canister landed on the roof of the building.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/syria-inside-douma-the-site-of-apparent-chemical-attack-2018-04-16/
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/syria-gas-attack-inspectors-opcw-douma-un-bashar-assad-russia/
I didn't realise the Brit bashing here extended to Syria. Ffs, when you're even thinking about siding with Assad, now probably the most despicable ruling tyrant on Earth, and fûcking Vladimir Putin you might cotton onto the fact you're onto a loser and your own biases are at play.
The West ain't angels but there's a hell of a gap between it and those despot regimes.
Saudi Arabia, Bahrain. .... ..
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on April 18, 2018, 10:20:22 PM
Not sure anyone here is taking Fisk's word without question. I posted a link to the article because it is by a reputable journalist calling into question the line that has been given in the media about gas attacks, and thus deserves attention. And because he, like the British military people I also linked, cannot be dismissed as a crank, conspiracy theorist or Russian puppet.
Regarding the gas attack, if that's what it was, the U.N. has claimed that both sides in Syria have used chemical weapons. http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/24/u-n-claims-syrian-regime-and-islamic-state-used-chemical-weapons/ (http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/24/u-n-claims-syrian-regime-and-islamic-state-used-chemical-weapons/). So if there was indeed a gas attack, it is hardly a huge leap to wonder whether the rebels rather than Assad's forces were behind it.
And in any event, to bomb Syria before examining evidence regarding what happened, well, that's back in "but Saddam has WMD, we know this" territory.
A hugely logical post.
Quote from: Syferus on April 18, 2018, 11:41:16 PM
I didn't realise the Brit bashing here extended to Syria. Ffs, when you're even thinking about siding with Assad, now probably the most despicable ruling tyrant on Earth, and fûcking Vladimir Putin you might cotton onto the fact you're onto a loser and your own biases are at play.
The West ain't angels but there's a hell of a gap between it and those despot regimes.
A close second ;D
One aspect of the Syrian war that doesn't get enough attention is climate change. Syria is in large part desert apart from the strip around the coast inland as far as Damascus. Syria doesnt have a lot of water. In the east there is the Euphrates river but Turkey has built dams upstream.
The population grew a lot post WW2. The education system is poor so young men don't have many skills. And kids need to be fed. So a lot of marginal land was brought into use in order to keep pace with population growth . Between 1988 and 2014 the population increased by 70%.
It is not that different to Connacht in the early 1840s in fact.
The Euphrates isn't what it used to be and climate change introduced desertification which banjaxed a lot of marginal land. Subsistence farmers started to move to the cities- Aleppo and Damascus-especially poor areas such as Ghouta - and people felt they had nothing to lose and started agitating for change.
The bIg question is how many people Syria can support.
It is very easy to increase a population but very hard to decrease it back to a stable level when food production goes into crisis.
In Ireland in the 1840s the Brits chose a Famine . The cultural repercussions are still visible. Famine and war are Traumas. After the Famine the age of marriage rose drastically and sexual relations between men and women were policed by the wider society. Any activity that might threaten the food supply was shunned.
Syria is next door to Israel so there is no way it'll be allowed to run a couple of decades of political experimention to come up with something that might work. Egypt also borders Israel and the model there is brutal repression and stagnation
Ireland was treated similarly in the 19th century because of its strategic location between England and the US. There was no way the Fenians were going to get control.
The brutality of the war is trauma. Syria is working its way to a new equilibrium. It was just as bad in Connacht or West Cork in the 1840s. It doesn't really matter whether people die by hunger or by being bombed.
There is no groovy way to do it.
Regime change in Syria–good for Israel; good for the U.S.
Hillary Clinton Email Archive
https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/18328
—————————————————————————–
UNCLASSIFIED U.S. Department of State Case No. F-2014-20439 Doc No. C05794498 Date: 11/30/2015 RELEASE IN FULL
The best way to help Israel deal with Iran's growing nuclear capability is to help the people of Syria overthrow the regime of Bashar Assad.
Negotiations to limit Iran's nuclear program will not solve Israel's security dilemma. Nor will they stop Iran from improving the crucial part of any nuclear weapons program — the capability to enrich uranium. At best, the talks between the world's major powers and Iran that began in Istanbul this April and will continue in Baghdad in May will enable Israel to postpone by a few months a decision whether to launch an attack on Iran that could provoke a major Mideast war. Iran's nuclear program and Syria's civil war may seem unconnected, but they are. For Israeli leaders, the real threat from a nuclear-armed Iran is not the prospect of an insane Iranian leader launching an unprovoked Iranian nuclear attack on Israel that would lead to the annihilation of both countries.
What Israeli military leaders really worry about — but cannot talk about — is losing their nuclear monopoly. An Iranian nuclear weapons capability would not only end that nuclear monopoly but could also prompt other adversaries, like Saudi Arabia and Egypt, to go nuclear as well. The result would be a precarious nuclear balance in which Israel could not respond to provocations with conventional military strikes on Syria and Lebanon, as it can today. If Iran were to reach the threshold of a nuclear weapons state, Tehran would find it much easier to call on its allies in Syria and Hezbollah to strike Israel, knowing that its nuclear weapons would serve as a deterrent to Israel responding against Iran itself.
Back to Syria. It is the strategic relationship between Iran and the regime of Bashar Assad in Syria that makes it possible for Iran to undermine Israel's security — not through a direct attack, which in the thirty years of hostility between Iran and Israel has never occurred, but through its proxies in Lebanon, like Hezbollah, that are sustained, armed and trained by Iran via Syria.
The end of the Assad regime would end this dangerous alliance. Israel's leadership understands well why defeating Assad is now in its interests. Speaking on CNN's Amanpour show last week, Defense Minister Ehud Barak argued that "the toppling down of Assad will be a major blow to the radical axis, major blow to Iran.... It's the only kind of outpost of the Iranian influence in the Arab world...and it will weaken dramatically both Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Gaza."
Bringing down Assad would not only be a massive boon to Israel's security, it would also ease Israel's understandable fear of losing its nuclear monopoly. Then, Israel and the United States might be able to develop a common view of when the Iranian program is so dangerous that military action could be warranted.
Right now, it is the combination of Iran's strategic alliance with Syria and the steady progress in Iran's nuclear enrichment program that has led Israeli leaders to contemplate a surprise attack — if necessary over the objections of Washington. With Assad gone, and Iran no longer able to threaten Israel through its, proxies, it is possible that the United States and Israel can agree on red lines for when Iran's program has crossed an unacceptable threshold. In short, the White House can ease the tension that has developed with Israel over Iran by doing the right thing in Syria.
The rebellion in Syria has now lasted more than a year. The opposition is not going away, nor is the regime going to accept a diplomatic solution from the outside. With his life and his family at risk, only the threat or use of force will change the Syrian dictator Bashar Assad's mind.
OPCW leaked document suggests that the Douma 2018 gas cannisters were not dropped from aircraft,but were manually placed there:
https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2019/05/peter-hitchens-empty-green-seats-that-prove-we-are-careering-towards-a-catastrophe.html (https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2019/05/peter-hitchens-empty-green-seats-that-prove-we-are-careering-towards-a-catastrophe.html)
"The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), the international body which examines alleged incidents of the use of poison gas, has just confirmed to me that a devastating leaked document from its Dutch HQ is genuine.
The document, written by one of the OPCW's most experienced investigators, shows that it is highly unlikely that gas canisters found at the scene of an alleged poison gas attack in Douma, Syria were actually dropped from helicopters – as has been widely believed and claimed."
For those interested, the original leaked document can be viewed here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ayBv-nEOMTtIc-QOvejQBdCnZQXTuJ5z/view (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ayBv-nEOMTtIc-QOvejQBdCnZQXTuJ5z/view)
It ends with this: "In summary, observations at the scene of the two locations, together with subsequent analysis, suggest that there is a higher probability that both cylinders were manually placed at those two locations rather than being delivered from aircraft."
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on May 21, 2019, 03:22:57 PM
OPCW leaked document suggests that the Douma 2018 gas cannisters were not dropped from aircraft,but were manually placed there:
https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2019/05/peter-hitchens-empty-green-seats-that-prove-we-are-careering-towards-a-catastrophe.html (https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2019/05/peter-hitchens-empty-green-seats-that-prove-we-are-careering-towards-a-catastrophe.html)
"The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), the international body which examines alleged incidents of the use of poison gas, has just confirmed to me that a devastating leaked document from its Dutch HQ is genuine.
The document, written by one of the OPCW's most experienced investigators, shows that it is highly unlikely that gas canisters found at the scene of an alleged poison gas attack in Douma, Syria were actually dropped from helicopters – as has been widely believed and claimed."
For those interested, the original leaked document can be viewed here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ayBv-nEOMTtIc-QOvejQBdCnZQXTuJ5z/view (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ayBv-nEOMTtIc-QOvejQBdCnZQXTuJ5z/view)
It ends with this: "In summary, observations at the scene of the two locations, together with subsequent analysis, suggest that there is a higher probability that both cylinders were manually placed at those two locations rather than being delivered from aircraft."
Ah will ya get away outta that ;)
OPCW scientists leak document showing Douma report on alleged Chemical attack was falsified.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7718627/Sexed-dossier-furore-alleged-poison-gas-attack-Assad.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7718627/Sexed-dossier-furore-alleged-poison-gas-attack-Assad.html)
Good man Jell O, but nobody's listening.
Shocked that the mail had it though.
Not sure why Hitchens works for the mail. He's been good on this topic.