America`s Gun Culture

[Puckoon]

An old friend of mine is a newly retired former ATF Special Agent in Charge. His last posts before retirement were Boston, NJ, and NYC, and he was heavily involved in the aftermath of the Newtown massacre. He told me last night that when things didn't change (in relation to gun control) after Newtown, that is when he lost hope that they would.

A start for me would be tidying up the second hand gun market. Currently there are numerous states where I can sell my gun to my buddy with no background check, no additional information required. I can't do that with a car - why can I do it with a gun?

[finbar o tool]

No I am not. I am saying in the event gun control comes into force - people will stock up in advance. Much like if alcohol was going to be banned a month from now you would be stocking up.

There needs to be a smart action plan here that takes into account who you're dealing with.  There is no short term solution. The solution is one where any benefits will not be realized for at least a decade or two I believe

You are going to have to help me out here.

Do you think that gun controls will limit ownership or simply future sales of weapons?

Future sale of weapons. Based on the people on the ground, thats all it will do.  The results of which will not be realized for decades.

That isn't really gun control at all. Given the amount of guns currently in circulation. It is more like a compromise that gun-owners would agree to. But as you say, it wouldn't be remotely effective for decades.

Gun control, for me, would have to introduce limits on ownership as well. Did Mercer's family need 13 guns? Did Mercer really need 6? Does anyone need 6 guns? What good would gun control be if it doesn't address these questions?

That is why I was asking would people stock up, knowing they were breaking the (hypothetical) new gun control laws?

Are you proposing then that people hand over guns in some kind of amnesty? Or that people have to register their guns and have local law enforcement enforce that with home checks etc..? Would either of those really work? Would they take the guns out of the hands of criminals? Crazy people?
I don't believe they would - knowing what it's actually like here.

6 guns in a household of 4 people isn't a lot. Right now I have two rifles a hand gun, a cross bow and a compound bow. My kids are not old enough to hunt yet but when they are I will allow them air rifles to start. How do you put a limit on that?

Like I said early on -we're passed the point of no return with guns in america. there are too many. the people are too far gone. it is what it is unfortunately.

Iceman, i openly admit, i know F all about guns and dont hunt. however, the 'gun-totin' americans are allowed go in and buy machine guns and god knows what else (as i said my knowledge of guns is poor!) that are not really hunting guns!!

there are laws that can come into effect and restrict who can buy,and what they can buy, and how guns are stored. that would make things a bit safer almost straight away, the part of all this that is NOT a quick fix is the mentality of a lot of americans.
this thing of, "oh come on in and ill show you my collection of guns, ive got 37 guns, from antiques to top of the range almost military issue guns, and everything in between!",  basically its a pissing contest to see who has the most spectacular gun or who has the most lethal gun or the most amount of guns. its also this mentality of "oh if i have a gun in the house i am immediately safer." which is obviously not the case!! even the police are gun crazy! if a "bad guy" runs or disobeys etc, they would be pulling their guns and in some cases, shooting people dead!
it makes me feel proud that our police force here dont carry guns, apart from detectives etc. i hope it never has to change.
but the mentality issue is the biggest one. i think the best hope for changing that is a good education on the issue from a young age.
have many of you seen Michael Moores documentary about guns in america 'Bowling for Columbine'?? its very good.
1 of the first scenes in it is where Michael takes a bank up on an offer they are running, "open an account with us today and receive a free shotgun"!!  worth a watch!

[armaghniac]

have many of you seen Michael Moores documentary about guns in america 'Bowling for Columbine'?? its very good.
1 of the first scenes in it is where Michael takes a bank up on an offer they are running, "open an account with us today and receive a free shotgun"!!  worth a watch!

Opening a bank account is actually quite a pain nowadays, with id, proof of address etc, probably more so than getting a gun.

[finbar o tool]

have many of you seen Michael Moores documentary about guns in america 'Bowling for Columbine'?? its very good.
1 of the first scenes in it is where Michael takes a bank up on an offer they are running, "open an account with us today and receive a free shotgun"!!  worth a watch!

Opening a bank account is actually quite a pain nowadays, with id, proof of address etc, probably more so than getting a gun.

this is true i guess!!

[Jell 0 Biafra]

have many of you seen Michael Moores documentary about guns in america 'Bowling for Columbine'?? its very good.
1 of the first scenes in it is where Michael takes a bank up on an offer they are running, "open an account with us today and receive a free shotgun"!!  worth a watch!

Opening a bank account is actually quite a pain nowadays, with id, proof of address etc, probably more so than getting a gun.

It might seem obvious that the thing to do is to impose more restrictions on buying a gun, of the type that go along with opening a bank account or buying a car, but the problem is that there is no constitutionally enshrined guarantee of car or bank account ownership.  That there is such a guarantee for gun ownership can only be changed with a retraction of a constitutional amendment (the second amendment), and there has only ever been one of those in the history of the US.   

[Jell 0 Biafra]

I'm not sure how you prevent the mentally unstable from getting guns either, given their constitutional right.  After all, blind people can have guns too:

lhttp://www.cnn.com/2013/09/08/us/gun-permits-blind/index.html

[The Iceman]

No I am not. I am saying in the event gun control comes into force - people will stock up in advance. Much like if alcohol was going to be banned a month from now you would be stocking up.

There needs to be a smart action plan here that takes into account who you're dealing with.  There is no short term solution. The solution is one where any benefits will not be realized for at least a decade or two I believe

You are going to have to help me out here.

Do you think that gun controls will limit ownership or simply future sales of weapons?

Future sale of weapons. Based on the people on the ground, thats all it will do.  The results of which will not be realized for decades.

That isn't really gun control at all. Given the amount of guns currently in circulation. It is more like a compromise that gun-owners would agree to. But as you say, it wouldn't be remotely effective for decades.

Gun control, for me, would have to introduce limits on ownership as well. Did Mercer's family need 13 guns? Did Mercer really need 6? Does anyone need 6 guns? What good would gun control be if it doesn't address these questions?

That is why I was asking would people stock up, knowing they were breaking the (hypothetical) new gun control laws?

Are you proposing then that people hand over guns in some kind of amnesty? Or that people have to register their guns and have local law enforcement enforce that with home checks etc..? Would either of those really work? Would they take the guns out of the hands of criminals? Crazy people?
I don't believe they would - knowing what it's actually like here.

6 guns in a household of 4 people isn't a lot. Right now I have two rifles a hand gun, a cross bow and a compound bow. My kids are not old enough to hunt yet but when they are I will allow them air rifles to start. How do you put a limit on that?

Like I said early on -we're passed the point of no return with guns in america. there are too many. the people are too far gone. it is what it is unfortunately.

Iceman, i openly admit, i know F all about guns and dont hunt. however, the 'gun-totin' americans are allowed go in and buy machine guns and god knows what else (as i said my knowledge of guns is poor!) that are not really hunting guns!!

there are laws that can come into effect and restrict who can buy,and what they can buy, and how guns are stored. that would make things a bit safer almost straight away, the part of all this that is NOT a quick fix is the mentality of a lot of americans.
this thing of, "oh come on in and ill show you my collection of guns, ive got 37 guns, from antiques to top of the range almost military issue guns, and everything in between!",  basically its a pissing contest to see who has the most spectacular gun or who has the most lethal gun or the most amount of guns. its also this mentality of "oh if i have a gun in the house i am immediately safer." which is obviously not the case!! even the police are gun crazy! if a "bad guy" runs or disobeys etc, they would be pulling their guns and in some cases, shooting people dead!
it makes me feel proud that our police force here dont carry guns, apart from detectives etc. i hope it never has to change.
but the mentality issue is the biggest one. i think the best hope for changing that is a good education on the issue from a young age.
have many of you seen Michael Moores documentary about guns in america 'Bowling for Columbine'?? its very good.
1 of the first scenes in it is where Michael takes a bank up on an offer they are running, "open an account with us today and receive a free shotgun"!!  worth a watch!

I don't know a lot about guns. I know enough to be dangerous (pardon the pun). I enjoy shooting, I enjoy hunting. I have gone to the range and shot off a whole host of different fully automatic and semi automatic assault rifles (he is a SWAT team chief and has unlimited ammo and lots of weapons). It was a real blast (pardon the pun again). 
You are right about the mentality - it can be a pissing contest. But a lot of Americans believe they need to protect themselves and their family from either the criminal or from a corrupt government.  In the case of the criminal I know a man here who has a concealed carry permit and will openly tell you he is carrying 2-3 guns all the time. Getting into the why he does that might require a whole thread.  In the case of protecting themselves against a corrupt government this falls under the category of doomsday prepp'ers, old colonial America and conspiracy theory heaven.

@ Muppet - hunting ans shooting is an activity. A household of 6 mad in to hurling would hardly only have 6 hurls about the place? I understand hurling isn't intended to kill but just trying to draw an analogy.  I know lots of people in the North who legally hold 4-6 guns and I'm talking 2 person families and only the husband shoots.

Finbar is right though - the problem is the mentality.

[muppet]

Guns for hunting I can empathise with.
Guns in a club or a firing range I have no problem with at all.

Guns for self-defence is madness though. I don't have figures for the US (anyone?) but I suspect that most criminals tend to shoot mainly other criminals. Certainly that is the case in Ireland. It is undesirable, but let's face it, one dead criminal is one less criminal.

Innocent deaths are obviously a different thing altogether. The two kids, shot by other kids, in the US in the last few days alone shows the dangers of having guns easily available. It is difficult to see how guns for self-defence, which by definition must have quick access (who knows when you will need it right?) can also be safely put out of reach of kids and other who might mis-use them.

[The Iceman]

bedside access fingerprint locker that only opens for me or the mrs

do you not have any weapons at all mupper? a hurl in the boot of the car? a cosh? a tire knocker? most of the lads I knew around home would have something handy always close by...

[Oraisteach]

Iceman, what sort of a crew did you run with?

[muppet]

bedside access fingerprint locker that only opens for me or the mrs

do you not have any weapons at all mupper? a hurl in the boot of the car? a cosh? a tire knocker? most of the lads I knew around home would have something handy always close by...

I have a hurl. That is about it.

There are those who would say I have absolutely no idea how to use it. 

[The Iceman]

Iceman, what sort of a crew did you run with?

i fell in with a few bad crowds in my time ha all gentlemen of the highest
South Derry was my stomping ground for a long time - Draperstown and Maghera mostly. And I worked in a few notorious bars in my home town

[Bazil Douglas]

bedside access fingerprint locker that only opens for me or the mrs

do you not have any weapons at all mupper? a hurl in the boot of the car? a cosh? a tire knocker? most of the lads I knew around home would have something handy always close by...

Jez Ice your starting to develope an american culture, guns in a bedside locker is it that dangerous.

[The Iceman]

what good would it be in a cupboard downstairs or in a safe in the garage...hold on there mr home invader while I run downstairs and get the gun

[Bazil Douglas]

what good would it be in a cupboard downstairs or in a safe in the garage...hold on there mr home invader while I run downstairs and get the gun

Yeah that's what I mean is it that dangerous. couldnt be any worse than south Derry, some of those Maghera boys were a bad crew. LOL