Tyrone v Dublin - The return of the Jedi

[criostlinn]

You have to play the system that best suits the players you have at your disposal. Harte doesn't have any real marquee forwards capable of shooting the lights out a la Brogan, Rock, O Donoghue or Geaney. Most of his best players are stacked in the middle 8 and are strong athletes best suited to a running style. Therefore he has to compensate by playing this ultra defensive system. It is not pretty to watch but sometimes you have to cut your cloth to suit. Any rational manager with an ounce of sense would play a similar system as Harte. In his own words, he is not there to entertain, he is there to win.

Maybe this is the only system that suits these Tyrone players. Far be it for me to argue with Mickey Harte about this. Looking from the outside it seems a lot of decent forwards have been sacrificed to the system over the last few years. No forward is going to be marquee playing this kind of football but for me this style of football has nothing to do with lack of forwards and all to do with no confidence in his defense.
As I said Mickey Harte went all in a couple of years ago that this was the way to beat Dublin. He has been refining the system over the last 3 years. 2015 they were two inexperienced for Kerry so they didn't get a chance to try it on Dublin, 2016 they didn't perform and off course the big bad wolf Lee Keegan stopped them trying it out on Dublin. 2017, No more excuses. This is it. If it doesn't work where do Mickey Harte and Tyrone turn to

[yellowcard]

You have to play the system that best suits the players you have at your disposal. Harte doesn't have any real marquee forwards capable of shooting the lights out a la Brogan, Rock, O Donoghue or Geaney. Most of his best players are stacked in the middle 8 and are strong athletes best suited to a running style. Therefore he has to compensate by playing this ultra defensive system. It is not pretty to watch but sometimes you have to cut your cloth to suit. Any rational manager with an ounce of sense would play a similar system as Harte. In his own words, he is not there to entertain, he is there to win.

Maybe this is the only system that suits these Tyrone players. Far be it for me to argue with Mickey Harte about this. Looking from the outside it seems a lot of decent forwards have been sacrificed to the system over the last few years. No forward is going to be marquee playing this kind of football but for me this style of football has nothing to do with lack of forwards and all to do with no confidence in his defense.
As I said Mickey Harte went all in a couple of years ago that this was the way to beat Dublin. He has been refining the system over the last 3 years. 2015 they were two inexperienced for Kerry so they didn't get a chance to try it on Dublin, 2016 they didn't perform and off course the big bad wolf Lee Keegan stopped them trying it out on Dublin. 2017, No more excuses. This is it. If it doesn't work where do Mickey Harte and Tyrone turn to

That probably rings true as well since I think they have weaknesses in the full back line as well that he is probably trying to cover up by offering them more protection. So what you get in Tyrone matches is a crowded defence who make it very difficult for opponents to kick the ball long into a full forward line that are operating in congested space and a Tyrone side that when they turn the ball over, have very few bodies up the pitch so that they have to run it deep from defence. It's like groundhog day with a lot of sideways passing and a basketball type affair with very little kick passing. I expect more of this on Sunday with a low scoring contest with very few goal chances. To expect Harte to do anything different at this stage would be foolish. If it doesn't work then it doesn't mean that another system would have worked. To believe that then you would have to believe that Tyrone have better players than Dublin which I don't think too many people would argue. Frustrating Dublin and denying them the space they need is the best way of giving themselves the best opportunity to win the match. 

[rrhf]

You have to play the system that best suits the players you have at your disposal. Harte doesn't have any real marquee forwards capable of shooting the lights out a la Brogan, Rock, O Donoghue or Geaney. Most of his best players are stacked in the middle 8 and are strong athletes best suited to a running style. Therefore he has to compensate by playing this ultra defensive system. It is not pretty to watch but sometimes you have to cut your cloth to suit. Any rational manager with an ounce of sense would play a similar system as Harte. In his own words, he is not there to entertain, he is there to win.

Maybe this is the only system that suits these Tyrone players. Far be it for me to argue with Mickey Harte about this. Looking from the outside it seems a lot of decent forwards have been sacrificed to the system over the last few years. No forward is going to be marquee playing this kind of football but for me this style of football has nothing to do with lack of forwards and all to do with no confidence in his defense.
As I said Mickey Harte went all in a couple of years ago that this was the way to beat Dublin. He has been refining the system over the last 3 years. 2015 they were two inexperienced for Kerry so they didn't get a chance to try it on Dublin, 2016 they didn't perform and off course the big bad wolf Lee Keegan stopped them trying it out on Dublin. 2017, No more excuses. This is it. If it doesn't work where do Mickey Harte and Tyrone turn to

agree with this to an extent. It probably comes down to this. On paper they are outsiders

[Armamike]

You have to play the system that best suits the players you have at your disposal. Harte doesn't have any real marquee forwards capable of shooting the lights out a la Brogan, Rock, O Donoghue or Geaney. Most of his best players are stacked in the middle 8 and are strong athletes best suited to a running style. Therefore he has to compensate by playing this ultra defensive system. It is not pretty to watch but sometimes you have to cut your cloth to suit. Any rational manager with an ounce of sense would play a similar system as Harte. In his own words, he is not there to entertain, he is there to win.

Maybe this is the only system that suits these Tyrone players. Far be it for me to argue with Mickey Harte about this. Looking from the outside it seems a lot of decent forwards have been sacrificed to the system over the last few years. No forward is going to be marquee playing this kind of football but for me this style of football has nothing to do with lack of forwards and all to do with no confidence in his defense.
As I said Mickey Harte went all in a couple of years ago that this was the way to beat Dublin. He has been refining the system over the last 3 years. 2015 they were two inexperienced for Kerry so they didn't get a chance to try it on Dublin, 2016 they didn't perform and off course the big bad wolf Lee Keegan stopped them trying it out on Dublin. 2017, No more excuses. This is it. If it doesn't work where do Mickey Harte and Tyrone turn to

They could just hang in there for another couple of years in the hope that Dublin get bored winning AIs.

[ziggysego]

You have to play the system that best suits the players you have at your disposal. Harte doesn't have any real marquee forwards capable of shooting the lights out a la Brogan, Rock, O Donoghue or Geaney. Most of his best players are stacked in the middle 8 and are strong athletes best suited to a running style. Therefore he has to compensate by playing this ultra defensive system. It is not pretty to watch but sometimes you have to cut your cloth to suit. Any rational manager with an ounce of sense would play a similar system as Harte. In his own words, he is not there to entertain, he is there to win.

Maybe this is the only system that suits these Tyrone players. Far be it for me to argue with Mickey Harte about this. Looking from the outside it seems a lot of decent forwards have been sacrificed to the system over the last few years. No forward is going to be marquee playing this kind of football but for me this style of football has nothing to do with lack of forwards and all to do with no confidence in his defense.
As I said Mickey Harte went all in a couple of years ago that this was the way to beat Dublin. He has been refining the system over the last 3 years. 2015 they were two inexperienced for Kerry so they didn't get a chance to try it on Dublin, 2016 they didn't perform and off course the big bad wolf Lee Keegan stopped them trying it out on Dublin. 2017, No more excuses. This is it. If it doesn't work where do Mickey Harte and Tyrone turn to

They could just hang in there for another couple of years in the hope that Dublin get bored winning AIs.

Armagh got bored quickly.

[trueblue1234]

You have to play the system that best suits the players you have at your disposal. Harte doesn't have any real marquee forwards capable of shooting the lights out a la Brogan, Rock, O Donoghue or Geaney. Most of his best players are stacked in the middle 8 and are strong athletes best suited to a running style. Therefore he has to compensate by playing this ultra defensive system. It is not pretty to watch but sometimes you have to cut your cloth to suit. Any rational manager with an ounce of sense would play a similar system as Harte. In his own words, he is not there to entertain, he is there to win.

Maybe this is the only system that suits these Tyrone players. Far be it for me to argue with Mickey Harte about this. Looking from the outside it seems a lot of decent forwards have been sacrificed to the system over the last few years. No forward is going to be marquee playing this kind of football but for me this style of football has nothing to do with lack of forwards and all to do with no confidence in his defense.
As I said Mickey Harte went all in a couple of years ago that this was the way to beat Dublin. He has been refining the system over the last 3 years. 2015 they were two inexperienced for Kerry so they didn't get a chance to try it on Dublin, 2016 they didn't perform and off course the big bad wolf Lee Keegan stopped them trying it out on Dublin. 2017, No more excuses. This is it. If it doesn't work where do Mickey Harte and Tyrone turn to

That probably rings true as well since I think they have weaknesses in the full back line as well that he is probably trying to cover up by offering them more protection. So what you get in Tyrone matches is a crowded defence who make it very difficult for opponents to kick the ball long into a full forward line that are operating in congested space and a Tyrone side that when they turn the ball over, have very few bodies up the pitch so that they have to run it deep from defence. It's like groundhog day with a lot of sideways passing and a basketball type affair with very little kick passing. I expect more of this on Sunday with a low scoring contest with very few goal chances. To expect Harte to do anything different at this stage would be foolish. If it doesn't work then it doesn't mean that another system would have worked. To believe that then you would have to believe that Tyrone have better players than Dublin which I don't think too many people would argue. Frustrating Dublin and denying them the space they need is the best way of giving themselves the best opportunity to win the match.

Neither Tyrone or Dublin have been involved in low scoring affairs this year in the championship. I don't expect it to be that low scoring. I'd expect it to get of to a blistering start but unfortunately I still think the Dub are ahead in the conditioning aspect and I expect them to drop the hammer in the second half.

[yellowcard]

You have to play the system that best suits the players you have at your disposal. Harte doesn't have any real marquee forwards capable of shooting the lights out a la Brogan, Rock, O Donoghue or Geaney. Most of his best players are stacked in the middle 8 and are strong athletes best suited to a running style. Therefore he has to compensate by playing this ultra defensive system. It is not pretty to watch but sometimes you have to cut your cloth to suit. Any rational manager with an ounce of sense would play a similar system as Harte. In his own words, he is not there to entertain, he is there to win.

Maybe this is the only system that suits these Tyrone players. Far be it for me to argue with Mickey Harte about this. Looking from the outside it seems a lot of decent forwards have been sacrificed to the system over the last few years. No forward is going to be marquee playing this kind of football but for me this style of football has nothing to do with lack of forwards and all to do with no confidence in his defense.
As I said Mickey Harte went all in a couple of years ago that this was the way to beat Dublin. He has been refining the system over the last 3 years. 2015 they were two inexperienced for Kerry so they didn't get a chance to try it on Dublin, 2016 they didn't perform and off course the big bad wolf Lee Keegan stopped them trying it out on Dublin. 2017, No more excuses. This is it. If it doesn't work where do Mickey Harte and Tyrone turn to

That probably rings true as well since I think they have weaknesses in the full back line as well that he is probably trying to cover up by offering them more protection. So what you get in Tyrone matches is a crowded defence who make it very difficult for opponents to kick the ball long into a full forward line that are operating in congested space and a Tyrone side that when they turn the ball over, have very few bodies up the pitch so that they have to run it deep from defence. It's like groundhog day with a lot of sideways passing and a basketball type affair with very little kick passing. I expect more of this on Sunday with a low scoring contest with very few goal chances. To expect Harte to do anything different at this stage would be foolish. If it doesn't work then it doesn't mean that another system would have worked. To believe that then you would have to believe that Tyrone have better players than Dublin which I don't think too many people would argue. Frustrating Dublin and denying them the space they need is the best way of giving themselves the best opportunity to win the match.

Neither Tyrone or Dublin have been involved in low scoring affairs this year in the championship. I don't expect it to be that low scoring. I'd expect it to get of to a blistering start but unfortunately I still think the Dub are ahead in the conditioning aspect and I expect them to drop the hammer in the second half.

The Dubs have just pummelled all of the hapless opposition to date with superior conditioning, movement and ability. Tyrone have picked off weaker opponents largely by turning over opposition ball and transitioning the ball quickly through the hand on fast counter attacks. They have improved greatly at the counter attacking aspect. You point to both sides scoring records in support of this being a high scoring contest, whilst I could easily point to their defensive records as proof that it will be a low scoring contest. Neither would be wrong.   

Neither side will have an advantage over the other physically in this contest and I expect that Tyrone will play the same system whilst the Dubs will set up a bit more cautiously to guard against Tyrone counter attacks. It will become an arm wrestle similar to Tyrone v Mayo (0-13 to 0-12) last year or even this years League encounter ending 0-10 to 1-7. Small margins will decide the outcome and I reckon the greater willingness to win will be on the Tyrone side which will see them over the line in the crucial last 10 minutes. 

[Lamh Dhearg Alba]

You have to play the system that best suits the players you have at your disposal. Harte doesn't have any real marquee forwards capable of shooting the lights out a la Brogan, Rock, O Donoghue or Geaney. Most of his best players are stacked in the middle 8 and are strong athletes best suited to a running style. Therefore he has to compensate by playing this ultra defensive system. It is not pretty to watch but sometimes you have to cut your cloth to suit. Any rational manager with an ounce of sense would play a similar system as Harte. In his own words, he is not there to entertain, he is there to win.

Maybe this is the only system that suits these Tyrone players. Far be it for me to argue with Mickey Harte about this. Looking from the outside it seems a lot of decent forwards have been sacrificed to the system over the last few years. No forward is going to be marquee playing this kind of football but for me this style of football has nothing to do with lack of forwards and all to do with no confidence in his defense.
As I said Mickey Harte went all in a couple of years ago that this was the way to beat Dublin. He has been refining the system over the last 3 years. 2015 they were two inexperienced for Kerry so they didn't get a chance to try it on Dublin, 2016 they didn't perform and off course the big bad wolf Lee Keegan stopped them trying it out on Dublin. 2017, No more excuses. This is it. If it doesn't work where do Mickey Harte and Tyrone turn to

I agree with this and have been arguing the case on this board for a good while. There is plenty of attacking talent in Tyrone but Mickey made a choice to rebuild the team using this particular model and just having attacking flair isn't enough. That's why boys like Ronan O'Neill and Darren McCurry are on the bench and Raymie Mulgrew and Kyle Coney are watching the games on TV. Now maybe that was the correct, pragmatic decision, but it's wrong IMO to suggest he had to go with this style because of lack of attacking options. Clearly he decided this way was more likely to upset the top teams. Personally I don't think this style has yet to beat anybody that Tyrone wouldn't have beaten anyway playing a more open brand of football. It needs to take out one of the big guns to prove this rebuild was the right way to go.

I fear that it will come unstuck again against the Dubs. If Tyrone get ahead I suspect they would once again try to defend the lead and would be reeled back in before the end. If Dublin get ahead this system has previously failed to allow Tyrone to come back. Equally, if it's close in the closing stages I can't see Tyrone committing enough to attack to win. I don't think Tyrone have the ruthlessness of Donegal 2012 and 2014 either. Struggling as such to see how Tyrone can win this game, unless as some have suggested Mickey throws a curveball and goes with a bit more in attack. Certainly the level of performance in the last two games will not be good enough for Tyrone made a lot of poor decisions in attack against Down and Armagh and kicked away a lot of ball. Donegal were poor in the Ulster semi but Tyrone hardly wasted anything in attack that day. Something similar will be required if they are to have a chance here.

Obviously I hope Mickey shows me up to be clueless on the 27th.

[RedHand88]

Has anyone considered the odds on this to be a real gift? Tyrone are 5/2 with most places, surely that's great value and it's closer than that?

[Taylor]

Has anyone considered the odds on this to be a real gift? Tyrone are 5/2 with most places, surely that's great value and it's closer than that?

Thought we would be 7/4 max red hand. But then the volume of money would come from Dubs so bookies are balancing the books or protecting themselves with those odds

[seafoid]

I dunno about Tyrone. Does the county have the population to support two separate all Ireland winning teams in 15 years? How many of the forwards are as good as Mugsy was ?

It seems to be a very tight and focused ship with every one committed to the system and everyone believing but August is when the tempo speeds up and the serious questions get asked. Those backs could be tested to destruction.

On the other hand maybe the Dubs are past it.
Tantalising.

[yellowcard]

Has anyone considered the odds on this to be a real gift? Tyrone are 5/2 with most places, surely that's great value and it's closer than that?

If the odds are based on past performances then they are probably correct. On the face of it, a team with 4 All Ireland's against a team that has yet to win a big championship knock out game, it's hard to argue. However Tyrone are just starting out and improving whilst Dublin are a couple of years past their peak and on that basis Tyrone are too big at those odds. I rarely back GAA matches but I will be backing Tyrone to beat Dublin the next day at those odds.

[Il Bomber Destro]

Since the 22nd August 2010 Dublin have only lost 2 championship games. Once to Donegal and once to Mayo
Micky seems to have gone all in on the Donegal tactics as the way to be the third team to beat them.

Since that fateful day in August 2014 Dublin have not lost a championship match and the only team to come within 3 points of them is Mayo who have drawn with them twice.

Why is Mciky Harte so convinced this is the way to beat Dublin

Kerry lost by 2 points to Dublin the All Ireland semi final last year, the sides were level with 72 minutes played and the last two Dublin points were scored deep into injury time in the 74th and 75th minute.

Not sure how convinced he is but Mr Harte probably believes Tyrone are as good as both Kerry and Mayo.

Oh I've no doubt Mickey Harte feels his team are better then Kerry or Mayo. On what basis he feels this I don't yet know  but why is he so convinced the style of football he has spent the last couple of years at is the way to go

Because it best suits the players we have, because for the years before Donegal had Tyrone's number playing a similar style of football, because pretty much all the big teams now play a variation of it. It's not unusual for Kerry or Dublin to have 14 men behind the ball or in their own half. To beat Tyrone you have to play them at their own game, Mayo did it last year.

I guess you could say this year is similar to where Mayo were in 2013, they started to make gains in 2011 but were beaten comfortably by Kerry in the semi-final. They made the final in 2012 but it was effectively over after 10 minutes, since then they have been genuine contenders.

I believe Kerry in 2015 (particularly) and Mayo last year were both games we left behind us so if manage to put ourselves in a position to win against Dublin, we simply have to seize the moment.

[Zulu]

You have to play the system that best suits the players you have at your disposal. Harte doesn't have any real marquee forwards capable of shooting the lights out a la Brogan, Rock, O Donoghue or Geaney. Most of his best players are stacked in the middle 8 and are strong athletes best suited to a running style. Therefore he has to compensate by playing this ultra defensive system. It is not pretty to watch but sometimes you have to cut your cloth to suit. Any rational manager with an ounce of sense would play a similar system as Harte. In his own words, he is not there to entertain, he is there to win.

Maybe this is the only system that suits these Tyrone players. Far be it for me to argue with Mickey Harte about this. Looking from the outside it seems a lot of decent forwards have been sacrificed to the system over the last few years. No forward is going to be marquee playing this kind of football but for me this style of football has nothing to do with lack of forwards and all to do with no confidence in his defense.
As I said Mickey Harte went all in a couple of years ago that this was the way to beat Dublin. He has been refining the system over the last 3 years. 2015 they were two inexperienced for Kerry so they didn't get a chance to try it on Dublin, 2016 they didn't perform and off course the big bad wolf Lee Keegan stopped them trying it out on Dublin. 2017, No more excuses. This is it. If it doesn't work where do Mickey Harte and Tyrone turn to

I agree with this and have been arguing the case on this board for a good while. There is plenty of attacking talent in Tyrone but Mickey made a choice to rebuild the team using this particular model and just having attacking flair isn't enough. That's why boys like Ronan O'Neill and Darren McCurry are on the bench and Raymie Mulgrew and Kyle Coney are watching the games on TV. Now maybe that was the correct, pragmatic decision, but it's wrong IMO to suggest he had to go with this style because of lack of attacking options. Clearly he decided this way was more likely to upset the top teams. Personally I don't think this style has yet to beat anybody that Tyrone wouldn't have beaten anyway playing a more open brand of football. It needs to take out one of the big guns to prove this rebuild was the right way to go.

I fear that it will come unstuck again against the Dubs. If Tyrone get ahead I suspect they would once again try to defend the lead and would be reeled back in before the end. If Dublin get ahead this system has previously failed to allow Tyrone to come back. Equally, if it's close in the closing stages I can't see Tyrone committing enough to attack to win. I don't think Tyrone have the ruthlessness of Donegal 2012 and 2014 either. Struggling as such to see how Tyrone can win this game, unless as some have suggested Mickey throws a curveball and goes with a bit more in attack. Certainly the level of performance in the last two games will not be good enough for Tyrone made a lot of poor decisions in attack against Down and Armagh and kicked away a lot of ball. Donegal were poor in the Ulster semi but Tyrone hardly wasted anything in attack that day. Something similar will be required if they are to have a chance here.

Obviously I hope Mickey shows me up to be clueless on the 27th.

I agree with this as well. I think Tyrone have serious forward talent, albeit a bit small perhaps. I just can't see Tyrone winning if they play the way they've been playing. References to Donegal 2014 are irrelevant, Dublin learnt from that and won't be as easily caught. They'll have a plan for players like Peter Harte and Colm Cavanagh and will pose Tyrone way more problems defensively than anyone they've met so far.

Tyrone will definitely cause Dublin more problems than anyone else they've met so far but Dublin know how to beat Donegal 2014 now and unless Tyrone are ultra accurate with every chance they get or get a lucky goal I think they've little chance of winning. A lot needs to go right for Tyrone to win playing with 14 back. They have some chance if they play with more forwards.

[JoG2]

Has anyone considered the odds on this to be a real gift? Tyrone are 5/2 with most places, surely that's great value and it's closer than that?

If the odds are based on past performances then they are probably correct. On the face of it, a team with 4 All Ireland's against a team that has yet to win a big championship knock out game, it's hard to argue. However Tyrone are just starting out and improving whilst Dublin are a couple of years past their peak and on that basis Tyrone are too big at those odds. I rarely back GAA matches but I will be backing Tyrone to beat Dublin the next day at those odds.

There's a conveyor belt of talent all itching to get a jersey. The talent at their disposal is phenomenal. Think of the players just getting back to full fitness, Connolly good to go, the u21s who can't even get a look in? Aaron Byrne went travelling afaik because he couldn't make the match day panel. The 'peak' continues!