It's all Ulster football's fault

[mrdeeds]

To compare Armagh and Tyrone from the 00's to Donegal's defensive system is simply choosing to rewrite history.

Armagh regularly kept at least 5 forwards up the pitch at all times. Joe Kernan had basically 2 tactics which he employed throughout his managerial reign. Drop an extra man back around half back/midfield area to create more space up front. It was the old 'third midfielder' tactic that some teams employed around that time. The gameplan then involved getting the ball out wide into the midfield area and aiming long diagonal kick passes early into the full forward line.

Tyrone played more of a running game (although they had a very good mix) but Harte's main ploy to maintain a defensive structure involved playing his wing half forwards as roving half backs but they had licence to attack and players like Dooher, Cavlan, Mellon etc often were able to kick 2/3 points a game. Brian McGuigan was a playmaker who played up the pitch in a traditional CHF role to supply Canavan, Mulligan and O'Neill inside. They played with a serious intensity and tackled ferociously all over the pitch.

So to claim that Jimmy McGuinness' Donegal side simply refined a system cooked up by Armagh and Tyrone is simply not true. McGuinness revolutionised the way coaches thought about gaelic football. The sight of a half forward line withdrawn into defence with a lone forward operating in a full forward line was previously unheard of. It was horrible to watch but at least McGuinness was an original thinker to implement the sytem and he showed that the rules enabled this sytem to be operated successfully. Plenty of other poorer coaches have simply aped and tweaked this system since then with varying degress of success. This is not a criticism of Jimmy McGuinness who obviously was a brilliantly innovative coach, but it's merely pointing out the radical transformation of the game post Donegal 2011.

The game has since become more about closing off spaces and zonal marking rather than high intensity tackling further up the pitch. Most physical contact now only takes place when an attacking side crosses over the opposition 45 metre line. As a spectacle it is not very engaging at times mostly due to the over-reliance on the handpass and this lack of physical engagement in the first 2/3rds of the pitch.     

Great post.

[J70]

To compare Armagh and Tyrone from the 00's to Donegal's defensive system is simply choosing to rewrite history.

Armagh regularly kept at least 5 forwards up the pitch at all times. Joe Kernan had basically 2 tactics which he employed throughout his managerial reign. Drop an extra man back around half back/midfield area to create more space up front. It was the old 'third midfielder' tactic that some teams employed around that time. The gameplan then involved getting the ball out wide into the midfield area and aiming long diagonal kick passes early into the full forward line.

Armagh pulled plenty of men back when they needed to. Two games against Donegal stand out for me. After getting that lucky early goal and lead, Armagh destroyed Donegal on the break in the 02 Ulster final, particularly in the second half, when Donegal had tonnes of possession, but were up against a packed Armagh defense. Of course Armagh hit their forwards swiftly through the foot, but when they didn't have possession, the masses they had back forced Donegal out to the wings and game them nothing through the middle.
In the 03 AI semi, Donegal adapted a blanket defense formation for the day and forced Armagh into long range pot shots. The score was 1-4 to 0-4 at HT, and only ended up 2-10 to 1-9 courtesy of the last minute penalty goal. I've photos somewhere at home taken from the back of the Hogan Stand showing both teams, at times, with packed defenses and only one or two men up front.
On the whole though, I would say that the physicality and intensity is the main enduring contribution Armagh made and which Donegal and others adapted.

Tyrone played more of a running game (although they had a very good mix) but Harte's main ploy to maintain a defensive structure involved playing his wing half forwards as roving half backs but they had licence to attack and players like Dooher, Cavlan, Mellon etc often were able to kick 2/3 points a game. Brian McGuigan was a playmaker who played up the pitch in a traditional CHF role to supply Canavan, Mulligan and O'Neill inside. They played with a serious intensity and tackled ferociously all over the pitch.

So to claim that Jimmy McGuinness' Donegal side simply refined a system cooked up by Armagh and Tyrone is simply not true. McGuinness revolutionised the way coaches thought about gaelic football. The sight of a half forward line withdrawn into defence with a lone forward operating in a full forward line was previously unheard of. It was horrible to watch but at least McGuinness was an original thinker to implement the sytem and he showed that the rules enabled this sytem to be operated successfully. Plenty of other poorer coaches have simply aped and tweaked this system since then with varying degress of success. This is not a criticism of Jimmy McGuinness who obviously was a brilliantly innovative coach, but it's merely pointing out the radical transformation of the game post Donegal 2011.

Not sure if I said "refined". But if I did, my point, again, is that McGuinness didn't invent the idea of a blanket defense. He just came up with an extreme version of it, using what went before as an inspiration (I must look up his book to see what he has to say on this). People had been complaining about packed defenses for years before McGuinness, especially with respect to Ulster football (use the search function on the forum here for some examples, including the Tyrone people being sensitive about the "blanket" and "puke" terms - although the forum only goes back to 2006). Jim obviously innovated with the concept of everyone running back and setting up the wall 40m out once possession was lost, but IMO we are talking about degree and implementation, not invention, the primary purpose being to close down and limit the shooting options, turn the ball over, and hit fast on the break, which was not new. Donegal attacked plenty, thrillingly at times, especially after that first 2011 season, with all the backs even popping up with scores and assists at various times. The Dublin semi in 2011 was an aberration and overshadows everything else, but that's the way it goes.

To me, the bottom line is without the evolution the game had been undergoing over the previous decade, you wouldn't have had McGuinness's Donegal. But that's my opinion. Others are free to ascribe higher levels of genius to Jim if they want to! 

The game has since become more about closing off spaces and zonal marking rather than high intensity tackling further up the pitch. Most physical contact now only takes place when an attacking side crosses over the opposition 45 metre line. As a spectacle it is not very engaging at times mostly due to the over-reliance on the handpass and this lack of physical engagement in the first 2/3rds of the pitch.     

For what its worth, I agree.

[Jinxy]

I would have considered that Armagh team a physically very strong and fit team, but not unduly defensive.
That said when your main attacking strategy is delivering long, diagonal balls into the FF line, that's what most people will tend to remember.
Did they change their approach significantly to counteract Tyrone between 2002-2005?
I always enjoyed watching Armagh play, as I felt they had a similar philosophy to the successful Meath teams.

[omaghjoe]

I would have considered that Armagh team a physically very strong and fit team, but not unduly defensive.
That said when your main attacking strategy is delivering long, diagonal balls into the FF line, that's what most people will tend to remember.
Did they change their approach significantly to counteract Tyrone between 2002-2005?
I always enjoyed watching Armagh play, as I felt they had a similar philosophy to the successful Meath teams.

Your right but dressing it up as a compliment is hilarious
....most other people that enjoyed it are now watching UFC

[SouthDublinBro]

That Armagh team relied more on cheap, late hits and praying for a soft ref to turn a blind eye to their antics moreso than actually having a particularly negative defensive system of covering players like Jim McGuinness. They were fortunate that the black card did not exist in the Joe Kernan era.

Ulster football really has been a scourge since the 00s. Down and possibly Derry being the sole exceptions to the negativity of the rest.

[trileacman]

To compare Armagh and Tyrone from the 00's to Donegal's defensive system is simply choosing to rewrite history.

Armagh regularly kept at least 5 forwards up the pitch at all times. Joe Kernan had basically 2 tactics which he employed throughout his managerial reign. Drop an extra man back around half back/midfield area to create more space up front. It was the old 'third midfielder' tactic that some teams employed around that time. The gameplan then involved getting the ball out wide into the midfield area and aiming long diagonal kick passes early into the full forward line.

Tyrone played more of a running game (although they had a very good mix) but Harte's main ploy to maintain a defensive structure involved playing his wing half forwards as roving half backs but they had licence to attack and players like Dooher, Cavlan, Mellon etc often were able to kick 2/3 points a game. Brian McGuigan was a playmaker who played up the pitch in a traditional CHF role to supply Canavan, Mulligan and O'Neill inside. They played with a serious intensity and tackled ferociously all over the pitch.

So to claim that Jimmy McGuinness' Donegal side simply refined a system cooked up by Armagh and Tyrone is simply not true. McGuinness revolutionised the way coaches thought about gaelic football. The sight of a half forward line withdrawn into defence with a lone forward operating in a full forward line was previously unheard of. It was horrible to watch but at least McGuinness was an original thinker to implement the sytem and he showed that the rules enabled this sytem to be operated successfully. Plenty of other poorer coaches have simply aped and tweaked this system since then with varying degress of success. This is not a criticism of Jimmy McGuinness who obviously was a brilliantly innovative coach, but it's merely pointing out the radical transformation of the game post Donegal 2011.

The game has since become more about closing off spaces and zonal marking rather than high intensity tackling further up the pitch. Most physical contact now only takes place when an attacking side crosses over the opposition 45 metre line. As a spectacle it is not very engaging at times mostly due to the over-reliance on the handpass and this lack of physical engagement in the first 2/3rds of the pitch.     

Great post. I'd echo the sentiment of this.

IMHO I think Harte seen the success of Kernan's plan and twerked it a bit to suit the players at his disposal. Kernan brought a professionalism and organisation to his Armagh side along with an overt physicality that wasn't around at the time. Apart from that there was no great innovation to Kernan's Armagh. They played to their strengths which was a teak tough defence, big strong aerial midfield and a full-forward line that fed off high ball, in essence the same way football had been played for a generation. It's amazing to look back at some of the things that passed as masterstrokes. Kernan was amongst the 1st to bring a rudimentary sports physcology into the GAA. You'd be laughed out of it if you tried some of the things he done in the modern game but the Ali letter, Pacino speech and medal throwing were often hailed as the marginal gain needed to be winners and sure who's to say it wasn't. Trailer said Kernan's focus on increased physicality and intensity was something he learnt from Dessie Ryan, that's an insight I wasn't aware of, I'd love to hear who Kernan, Harte and McGuinness based their styles on. That's all said with the upmost respect for Kernan and Armagh, they were a truly formidable operation.

Harte inherited a team that was a mix of young, impressionable talent (like Jordan, Mulligan, McGinley, McGuigan et al) and hardened, proven footballers such as Dooher, Cavlan, Lawn and Canavan. Unlike Armagh, Harte was not blessed with high fielders at midfield or a keeper who could accurately target the teams best fielder. Likewise his full-forwards were small, lightweight and not suited to an aerial contest for ball. Harte's achievement was to win 3 All-Irelands, often with a makeshift fullback and consistently being outfought for kickouts. As noted previously he was fond of the 3rd midfielder option, mainly Enda McGinley dropping in beside the starting midfielders. He also cultivated a team adapted to fighting for breaking ball, with the likes of Dooher, Ricey, Mellon, Jordan particularly important. We mainly used either Hub or Colly Holmes to break ball whilst the rest hovered up. A Short kickout strategy would have been a god send to those Tyrone teams. Tyrone's strongest aspect was their half-back line and their running game as Cavanagh was a poor enough fielder but excellent with the ball in hand and the head down, McGinley, Jordan, Davy Harte likewise. Harte was also good with getting match-ups right. He called up Mellon for the Dublin 08 game and dropped Gourley for final which were shrewd moves.

Jim really took football to the next level though and his system is still the defining tactical paradigm. It's testament to him really that the guts of 8 full years later everyone who has tried to break his mould and move football to another place has failed. I had thought Gavin and Dublin would forward the game with a more balanced or attack-minded style but they appear to be reverted more and more back to the principles of Jimmy ball this past 24 months. Likewise it took Harte almost a full 5 years to grasp the concepts of Jim's vision of football, regularly coming off second best in Ulster to him and falling away from the top table from 2010 - 2015. The thing Jimmy recognised in those early days was that Tyrone's running game was a highly successful strategy. He seen that the more support runners you could use in the play and the more space you had in front of the attackers the more successful the running move was. So his blanket defence made sense on two fronts, it would compliment the running game and it would also shore up Donegal's often porous defence.

The sweeper was a tactic that was invented some years earlier in response to the raft of high ball that was being delivered in to full forward line post Kieran Donaghy's player of the year season. Everyone, literally everyone, played a high ball gameplan for some period between 2007-2009 no matter how ill-suited they were to it. Mike Cussen, Barry Owens, Padraig Clancy, Vinny Corey were all pitched in at FF and had high ball nailed at them and that's the mildly successful attempts at it that I can recall. Can anyone define the first introduction of a sweeper? I know Wexford had a high profile season in 2008 that centered around the use of PJ Banville as a sweeper, the same year Tyrone were using Joe McMahon to sweep and come into the play from deep. I don't think Harte or Ryan were the pioneers of it though but I can't recall the first team I saw make such a deliberate attempt to drop a player in front of the full back line.

[cavanmaniac]

"IMHO I think Harte seen the success of Kernan's plan and twerked it a bit to suit the players at his disposal."

The image this conjures, of Mickey Harte twerking for his players for whatever reason, just can not be un-imagined 

[cavanmaniac]

On a more substantive note, it's a long while ago now but I recall watching a few Armagh games in those seasons under the two Brians, perhaps more so early on in Kernan's reign, and feeling they were retreating into a 'defensive shell' once they had established leads in certain matches, and had left a few behind them as a result? If I'm not mistaken this tendency was a definite talking point at the time, with rumours that it had been instigated by team captain McGeeney, but some Armagh posters would be more authoritative about this I'm sure. This for me was the beginnings of a switch to pulling numbers back and defending leads which would later be refined and taken to extremes to evolve into the...whatchyoumacallit we watch today.

[trailer]

That Armagh team relied more on cheap, late hits and praying for a soft ref to turn a blind eye to their antics moreso than actually having a particularly negative defensive system of covering players like Jim McGuinness. They were fortunate that the black card did not exist in the Joe Kernan era.

Ulster football really has been a scourge since the 00s. Down and possibly Derry being the sole exceptions to the negativity of the rest.

Cringe.
Furthermore, only for Armagh & Tyrone, changing attitudes to fitness and conditioning, Dublin wouldn't be in the shape they are today.

[Rufus T Firefly]

On a more substantive note, it's a long while ago now but I recall watching a few Armagh games in those seasons under the two Brians, perhaps more so early on in Kernan's reign, and feeling they were retreating into a 'defensive shell' once they had established leads in certain matches, and had left a few behind them as a result? If I'm not mistaken this tendency was a definite talking point at the time, with rumours that it had been instigated by team captain McGeeney, but some Armagh posters would be more authoritative about this I'm sure. This for me was the beginnings of a switch to pulling numbers back and defending leads which would later be refined and taken to extremes to evolve into the...whatchyoumacallit we watch today.

Good post, and a lot of truth in what I have highlighted in bold. That was never more evident than in 2000 when we did that against Derry in the Ulster Final and were glad to see Tohill fail with a sixty yard free, which was to equalize with virtually the last kick of the game. We took a lead in extra time of the replay of the All Ireland semi-final and then seemed to sit back and invited trouble. I remember a quote from the paper the next day which stated that it was one thing to do it against Derry, but inviting Kerry on to you was pure folly. When questioned about this, I recall Geezer stating that it was not something that was preplanned or that they were conscious of during the games. 

[Rufus T Firefly]

That Armagh team relied more on cheap, late hits and praying for a soft ref to turn a blind eye to their antics moreso than actually having a particularly negative defensive system of covering players like Jim McGuinness. They were fortunate that the black card did not exist in the Joe Kernan era.

Ulster football really has been a scourge since the 00s. Down and possibly Derry being the sole exceptions to the negativity of the rest.

You'd think after five All Irelands that you'd have lost the bitterness of the 'Tommy Lyons era'. It still must run deep. 

[mrdeeds]

To compare Armagh and Tyrone from the 00's to Donegal's defensive system is simply choosing to rewrite history.

Armagh regularly kept at least 5 forwards up the pitch at all times. Joe Kernan had basically 2 tactics which he employed throughout his managerial reign. Drop an extra man back around half back/midfield area to create more space up front. It was the old 'third midfielder' tactic that some teams employed around that time. The gameplan then involved getting the ball out wide into the midfield area and aiming long diagonal kick passes early into the full forward line.

Tyrone played more of a running game (although they had a very good mix) but Harte's main ploy to maintain a defensive structure involved playing his wing half forwards as roving half backs but they had licence to attack and players like Dooher, Cavlan, Mellon etc often were able to kick 2/3 points a game. Brian McGuigan was a playmaker who played up the pitch in a traditional CHF role to supply Canavan, Mulligan and O'Neill inside. They played with a serious intensity and tackled ferociously all over the pitch.

So to claim that Jimmy McGuinness' Donegal side simply refined a system cooked up by Armagh and Tyrone is simply not true. McGuinness revolutionised the way coaches thought about gaelic football. The sight of a half forward line withdrawn into defence with a lone forward operating in a full forward line was previously unheard of. It was horrible to watch but at least McGuinness was an original thinker to implement the sytem and he showed that the rules enabled this sytem to be operated successfully. Plenty of other poorer coaches have simply aped and tweaked this system since then with varying degress of success. This is not a criticism of Jimmy McGuinness who obviously was a brilliantly innovative coach, but it's merely pointing out the radical transformation of the game post Donegal 2011.

The game has since become more about closing off spaces and zonal marking rather than high intensity tackling further up the pitch. Most physical contact now only takes place when an attacking side crosses over the opposition 45 metre line. As a spectacle it is not very engaging at times mostly due to the over-reliance on the handpass and this lack of physical engagement in the first 2/3rds of the pitch.     

Great post. I'd echo the sentiment of this.

IMHO I think Harte seen the success of Kernan's plan and twerked it a bit to suit the players at his disposal. Kernan brought a professionalism and organisation to his Armagh side along with an overt physicality that wasn't around at the time. Apart from that there was no great innovation to Kernan's Armagh. They played to their strengths which was a teak tough defence, big strong aerial midfield and a full-forward line that fed off high ball, in essence the same way football had been played for a generation. It's amazing to look back at some of the things that passed as masterstrokes. Kernan was amongst the 1st to bring a rudimentary sports physcology into the GAA. You'd be laughed out of it if you tried some of the things he done in the modern game but the Ali letter, Pacino speech and medal throwing were often hailed as the marginal gain needed to be winners and sure who's to say it wasn't. Trailer said Kernan's focus on increased physicality and intensity was something he learnt from Dessie Ryan, that's an insight I wasn't aware of, I'd love to hear who Kernan, Harte and McGuinness based their styles on. That's all said with the upmost respect for Kernan and Armagh, they were a truly formidable operation.

Harte inherited a team that was a mix of young, impressionable talent (like Jordan, Mulligan, McGinley, McGuigan et al) and hardened, proven footballers such as Dooher, Cavlan, Lawn and Canavan. Unlike Armagh, Harte was not blessed with high fielders at midfield or a keeper who could accurately target the teams best fielder. Likewise his full-forwards were small, lightweight and not suited to an aerial contest for ball. Harte's achievement was to win 3 All-Irelands, often with a makeshift fullback and consistently being outfought for kickouts. As noted previously he was fond of the 3rd midfielder option, mainly Enda McGinley dropping in beside the starting midfielders. He also cultivated a team adapted to fighting for breaking ball, with the likes of Dooher, Ricey, Mellon, Jordan particularly important. We mainly used either Hub or Colly Holmes to break ball whilst the rest hovered up. A Short kickout strategy would have been a god send to those Tyrone teams. Tyrone's strongest aspect was their half-back line and their running game as Cavanagh was a poor enough fielder but excellent with the ball in hand and the head down, McGinley, Jordan, Davy Harte likewise. Harte was also good with getting match-ups right. He called up Mellon for the Dublin 08 game and dropped Gourley for final which were shrewd moves.

Jim really took football to the next level though and his system is still the defining tactical paradigm. It's testament to him really that the guts of 8 full years later everyone who has tried to break his mould and move football to another place has failed. I had thought Gavin and Dublin would forward the game with a more balanced or attack-minded style but they appear to be reverted more and more back to the principles of Jimmy ball this past 24 months. Likewise it took Harte almost a full 5 years to grasp the concepts of Jim's vision of football, regularly coming off second best in Ulster to him and falling away from the top table from 2010 - 2015. The thing Jimmy recognised in those early days was that Tyrone's running game was a highly successful strategy. He seen that the more support runners you could use in the play and the more space you had in front of the attackers the more successful the running move was. So his blanket defence made sense on two fronts, it would compliment the running game and it would also shore up Donegal's often porous defence.

The sweeper was a tactic that was invented some years earlier in response to the raft of high ball that was being delivered in to full forward line post Kieran Donaghy's player of the year season. Everyone, literally everyone, played a high ball gameplan for some period between 2007-2009 no matter how ill-suited they were to it. Mike Cussen, Barry Owens, Padraig Clancy, Vinny Corey were all pitched in at FF and had high ball nailed at them and that's the mildly successful attempts at it that I can recall. Can anyone define the first introduction of a sweeper? I know Wexford had a high profile season in 2008 that centered around the use of PJ Banville as a sweeper, the same year Tyrone were using Joe McMahon to sweep and come into the play from deep. I don't think Harte or Ryan were the pioneers of it though but I can't recall the first team I saw make such a deliberate attempt to drop a player in front of the full back line.

We used the sweeper in an underage game back in 1999 or 2000. We played a club who had a future Cavan senior full forward and we bet them because we cut out every ball to him. Our manager claims he invented it as his friend worked with Mickey Harte after and told him about it.