The Paudie O'Se Cup

[trileacman]

Can someone point to a time when these smaller counties competed at the top level in Hurling. I never remember any Ulster county competing. The gap has always been there.
Same applies in Football. When did Wexford, Carlow, Wicklow, Antrim, Sligo etc every really compete?

It will all end in tears.

Wexford got to the ai semifinal in 08. Didn't shame themselves in it either against eventual ai champions Tyrone. Antrim pushed eventual ai winners Kerry all the way in '09. They were level with 8 mins to go. Made an Ulster final that year too. Wicklow had a hugely entertaining run under Micko around that time too. Fondly remembered by the gaa people there, fortress Aughrim was the headline at the time after the had some giant killings against favoured northern opposition. Carlow defeated div 1 outfit Kildare this year who in turn defeated the decades perennial contenders Mayo a round or two later. There's nothing to say their upturn could not continue. Sligo won the 2007 Connacht title and having beat both of connachts Big two on the way to the 2010 final they should have won it as well.

To say football was or is as bad as hurling is a fallacy used to drive us towards a tiered championship. Comparing Sligo, Antrim, Wexford, Wicklow, Carlow footballers to the likes of Tyrone, Fermanagh, Donegal or Leitirims hurlers is to compare apples and oranges.

To say these teams have never competed and will never compete again is a lie told with the intention that if it's repeated often enough people will start to believe its the truth.

[Syferus]

Can someone point to a time when these smaller counties competed at the top level in Hurling. I never remember any Ulster county competing. The gap has always been there.
Same applies in Football. When did Wexford, Carlow, Wicklow, Antrim, Sligo etc every really compete?

It will all end in tears.

Wexford got to the ai semifinal in 08. Didn't shame themselves in it either against eventual ai champions Tyrone. Antrim pushed eventual ai winners Kerry all the way in '09. They were level with 8 mins to go. Made an Ulster final that year too. Wicklow had a hugely entertaining run under Micko around that time too. Fondly remembered by the gaa people there, fortress Aughrim was the headline at the time after the had some giant killings against favoured northern opposition. Carlow defeated div 1 outfit Kildare this year who in turn defeated the decades perennial contenders Mayo a round or two later. There's nothing to say their upturn could not continue. Sligo won the 2007 Connacht title and having beat both of connachts Big two on the way to the 2010 final they should have won it as well.

To say football was or is as bad as hurling is a fallacy used to drive us towards a tiered championship. Comparing Sligo, Antrim, Wexford, Wicklow, Carlow footballers to the likes of Tyrone, Fermanagh, Donegal or Leitirims hurlers is to compare apples and oranges.

To say these teams have never competed and will never compete again is a lie told with the intention that if it's repeated often enough people will start to believe its the truth.

The reason Sligo didn't win in 2010 is because they weren't good enough, and nothing more.

[trileacman]

Can someone point to a time when these smaller counties competed at the top level in Hurling. I never remember any Ulster county competing. The gap has always been there.
Same applies in Football. When did Wexford, Carlow, Wicklow, Antrim, Sligo etc every really compete?

It will all end in tears.

Wexford got to the ai semifinal in 08. Didn't shame themselves in it either against eventual ai champions Tyrone. Antrim pushed eventual ai winners Kerry all the way in '09. They were level with 8 mins to go. Made an Ulster final that year too. Wicklow had a hugely entertaining run under Micko around that time too. Fondly remembered by the gaa people there, fortress Aughrim was the headline at the time after the had some giant killings against favoured northern opposition. Carlow defeated div 1 outfit Kildare this year who in turn defeated the decades perennial contenders Mayo a round or two later. There's nothing to say their upturn could not continue. Sligo won the 2007 Connacht title and having beat both of connachts Big two on the way to the 2010 final they should have won it as well.

To say football was or is as bad as hurling is a fallacy used to drive us towards a tiered championship. Comparing Sligo, Antrim, Wexford, Wicklow, Carlow footballers to the likes of Tyrone, Fermanagh, Donegal or Leitirims hurlers is to compare apples and oranges.

To say these teams have never competed and will never compete again is a lie told with the intention that if it's repeated often enough people will start to believe its the truth.

The reason Sligo didn't win in 2010 is because they weren't good enough, and nothing more.

Still they'd the leg work done to be Connacht champions. Left it behind them by a point at the death. Really enjoyed that match.

[cavanmaniac]

The qualifiers and super 8s have already devalued the provincial championships in a serious way...Central Council has severely undermined the provincial championships with the backdoor and super 8s and the provincial councils haven't batted an eyelid despite this supposed political power.

Yes, you're right there, it definitely has. But its the tradition and the status that dies hardest, denuded though they are they still enjoy massive prominence as the foundation stone and jumping off point for all that follows  - that was principally what I was alluding to. There's a reason why you, I and the dogs on the street can all recognize that the provincial championships are devalued, and in my opinion, now an impediment, yet no single championship structure advocating for their removal ever, ever sees the light of day and is instead taken to a dark corner and quietly strangled by self-preservation. There would not in my lifetime, I reckon, be any appetite to put the 'greater good' of the GAA and the equality or health of its competitions before this status, power, tradition, fiefdom and tribalism, as we've seen with quite a few decisions and non-decisions over the decades. 

Despite all the above and the serious inequities around the provincial championships, I wouldn't like to see any further demise, if only because it remains meaningful in Ulster.  At the moment a provincial win would be a huge thing for Armagh (10 years since last success), Down (24 years), Derry (20 years), Cavan (21 years) and Fermanagh (never).  Given where they are at at the moment, an Ulster Championship win for Cavan could be the catalyst the greater success.  It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that one or two of these teams will emerge to win Ulster in the next five years. 

I don't strongly disagree with any of this either but none of it addresses the point that the provincials, overall, in the wider view, are a hindrance to progress and true equality and until they are dispensed with/decoupled from the main business, no championship structure that can actually, genuinely level the playing field will ever become a reality.

The romance of lesser counties winning provincials isn't entirely lost on me either, I'm from a county where we've one a solitary title since 1969. However I don't think the wider health of the sport and organization can be hidebound or held to hostage by the humanitarian notion of waiting for our likes to have an occasional day in the sun. It might be a catalyst, it might not - what have we done in Cavan off the back of an absolutely massive breakthrough in 1997, when the provincials really were worth winning and it truly was a prize? In most counties that lack the wherewithal to win provincials regularly, winning one sporadically tends not to magically address the reasons why they failed so regularly for so long beforehand.
I'd argue that success in a remodeled, equitable championship and progression to August matches would be just as cherished by anyone from the counties you've mentioned anyway. Besides, you could run the provincials in place of the McKenna Cup and so on if it was really necessary to preserve them in some form so they don't disappear from history.

[five points]

I'd argue that success in a remodeled, equitable championship and progression to August matches would be just as cherished by anyone from the counties you've mentioned anyway.

Our progression to the All Ireland Quarter Final in August 2013 was cherished only for a few months. Nothing like the romance and magic that we experienced in 1997.

Besides, you could run the provincials in place of the McKenna Cup and so on if it was really necessary to preserve them in some form so they don't disappear from history.

If you do that, they become the McKenna Cup.

[Rossfan]

The Provincial football Championships drew around around 330k this year. The 4 Rounds of Qualifiers about 110k.
So no matter what new System might come in future I think it's a fair bet the Provincials will remain and there will be some perks for winning them (home draws or extra home fixtures if a group system).
The new Championship structures this tear had 2 things in common -
1 they were both devised by HQ
2 Provincials left intact , in fact made more important in the Hurling.

So if you want a new system it needs to be proposed by HQ and passed by Provincial Secretaries following which officialdom will support each other and vote it through.

[cavanmaniac]

Our progression to the All Ireland Quarter Final in August 2013 was cherished only for a few months. Nothing like the romance and magic that we experienced in 1997.

Yes, because it was 26 years previous and an entirely different landscape where winning one was reaching a pinnacle, unlike now. In the absence of provincials, reaching All-Ireland semis would still generate the same hype and momentum whatever the nature of the route there. Having no cup or title to celebrate might dilute things, you're correct, but my original point is do we want either to prioritise the preservation of traditions and established structures, or do we want a structure that's as fair as possible? Occasional fresh winners of denuded provincial championships experiencing the odd outpouring of joy doesn't seem a good enough reason to disenfranchise the majority.

If you do that, they become the McKenna Cup.

That's the general thrust, yes.

[five points]

do we want either to prioritise the preservation of traditions and established structures, or do we want a structure that's as fair as possible?

In life as in the GAA, dumping traditions and established structures in search of a holy grail of fairness is usually a fool's errand.

The provincially-based championship has its drawbacks but so too would an open draw-based league system. To take a random example a championship group of Cavan, Wexford, Waterford and Cork wouldn't exactly set pulses racing.

[BennyCake]

do we want either to prioritise the preservation of traditions and established structures, or do we want a structure that's as fair as possible?

In life as in the GAA, dumping traditions and established structures in search of a holy grail of fairness is usually a fool's errand.

The provincially-based championship has its drawbacks but so too would an open draw-based league system. To take a random example a championship group of Cavan, Wexford, Waterford and Cork wouldn't exactly set pulses racing.

No, it wouldn't.

But a potential first round knock out fixture of Kerry Tyrone, Mayo Dublin or Donegal Kerry would. And a fortunate draw seeing the likes of Louth or Sligo in an AI semi or final, would do more for football in those counties than years of funding or coaches.

That's why an open draw is the only way.

We'll never see it now though. It's all about milking the tits off that big fat cash cow.

[APM]

do we want either to prioritise the preservation of traditions and established structures, or do we want a structure that's as fair as possible?

In life as in the GAA, dumping traditions and established structures in search of a holy grail of fairness is usually a fool's errand.

The provincially-based championship has its drawbacks but so too would an open draw-based league system. To take a random example a championship group of Cavan, Wexford, Waterford and Cork wouldn't exactly set pulses racing.

No, it wouldn't.

But a potential first round knock out fixture of Kerry Tyrone, Mayo Dublin or Donegal Kerry would. And a fortunate draw seeing the likes of Louth or Sligo in an AI semi, would do more for football in those counties than years of funding or coaches.

That's why an open draw is the only way.

We'll never see it now though. It's all about milking the tits off that big fat cash cow.

Jaysus, no way!  How on earth could it be good for the game to have Kerry knocked out by Tyrone and Donegal knocked out by Dublin in the first round, with Mayo knocking out Dublin in the second round and Louth in an AI semi, cos they beat Waterford, London, New York and Limerick.  Everyone thought it was wonderful when London made it to the Connaught Final in 2013. I thought it was a feckin joke to be fair. 

I would prefer to have seedings to reduce the number of mismatches.

[Rossfan]

"Open draw" lottery and no Provincials won't be happening whatever else might occur.

[BennyCake]

do we want either to prioritise the preservation of traditions and established structures, or do we want a structure that's as fair as possible?

In life as in the GAA, dumping traditions and established structures in search of a holy grail of fairness is usually a fool's errand.

The provincially-based championship has its drawbacks but so too would an open draw-based league system. To take a random example a championship group of Cavan, Wexford, Waterford and Cork wouldn't exactly set pulses racing.

No, it wouldn't.

But a potential first round knock out fixture of Kerry Tyrone, Mayo Dublin or Donegal Kerry would. And a fortunate draw seeing the likes of Louth or Sligo in an AI semi, would do more for football in those counties than years of funding or coaches.

That's why an open draw is the only way.

We'll never see it now though. It's all about milking the tits off that big fat cash cow.

Jaysus, no way!  How on earth could it be good for the game to have Kerry knocked out by Tyrone and Donegal knocked out by Dublin in the first round, with Mayo knocking out Dublin in the second round and Louth in an AI semi, cos they beat Waterford, London, New York and Limerick.  Everyone thought it was wonderful when London made it to the Connaught Final in 2013. I thought it was a feckin joke to be fair. 

I would prefer to have seedings to reduce the number of mismatches.

But sure Kerry and Dublin have waltzed through their provinces for years to get to AI semis. How would it be different if Louth did it via an open draw?

Every county has the right to compete for Sam. 20 odd haven't a hope with the current system. This gives them as much chance as the next county.

Players in 20-odd counties are walking away in their droves. This system would help that.

[Rossfan]

480 of them would train for 9 months for 1 game.

[BennyCake]

480 of them would train for 9 months for 1 game.

Maybe, but not every year.

If Kerry met Dublin, they'd be training for one game too.

[five points]

The current system for all its faults at least allows most counties the opportunity of at least one winnable provincial championship match in most years followed by at least one game in the qualifiers, the early rounds of which involve a decent probability of meeting beatable opposition.