Rugby - what's the attraction?

[Sidney]

Your first sentence is subjective (having played three of these games at reasonable level, I'd argue that you need to master more skills in Gaelic football, hurling and rugby then in soccer - hence soccer's appeal) and your second sentence is just plain wrong. You can say the inverse - I'm doing it now. Darcy said himself during the week he was a hurling man before he changed schools - you telling me an athlete with his physical gifts couldn't have made it as a Wexford corner forward?

Wexford don't play at a very high level these days, but no.

You will not make it in inter-county hurling if you spend more than a few years away from practising the basic skills.

You will not be able to play at any sort of decent level in association football if you have not been playing the game and developing your skills from childhood up.

You will not pick up a hurley for the first time at 13 or kick a ball for the first time at 13 and play top-level hurling or association football respectively.

Many international rugby players never played the game before secondary school.

You only have to look at the Irish team themselves to see the paucity in so called skill levels. Most forwards are literally unable to pass the ball more than two yards.

[seafoid]

Your first sentence is subjective (having played three of these games at reasonable level, I'd argue that you need to master more skills in Gaelic football, hurling and rugby then in soccer - hence soccer's appeal) and your second sentence is just plain wrong. You can say the inverse - I'm doing it now. Darcy said himself during the week he was a hurling man before he changed schools - you telling me an athlete with his physical gifts couldn't have made it as a Wexford corner forward?

Wexford don't play at a very high level these days, but no.

You will not make it in inter-county hurling if you spend more than a few years away from practising the basic skills.

You will not be able to play at any sort of decent level in association football if you have not been playing the game and developing your skills from childhood up.

You will not pick up a hurley for the first time at 13 or kick a ball for the first time at 13 and play top-level hurling or association football respectively.

Many international rugby players never played the game before secondary school.

You only have to look at the Irish team themselves to see the paucity in so called skill levels. Most forwards are literally unable to pass the ball more than two yards.

Brian Lohan never made it onto the Clare minors or u21s but he was quite handy later. Elite sports performance can come late.
DJ Carey was "good enough to play soccer", as I read somewhere.

Rugby in Ireland is fairly laid back up to age 13-14. Then they start selecting.  If a "lay" player  turns up at 15 or 16 with the strength/speed  and spatial awareness required he can be fast tracked.

If you read a few GAA biographies you can see that many of the players had choices in their late teens and could have ended up in other sports. A lot of the time it's the local sports culture that makes the difference.   
Rugby is trying to widen the net now with development officers in more rural areas.

[easytiger95]

Your first sentence is subjective (having played three of these games at reasonable level, I'd argue that you need to master more skills in Gaelic football, hurling and rugby then in soccer - hence soccer's appeal) and your second sentence is just plain wrong. You can say the inverse - I'm doing it now. Darcy said himself during the week he was a hurling man before he changed schools - you telling me an athlete with his physical gifts couldn't have made it as a Wexford corner forward?

Wexford don't play at a very high level these days, but no.

You will not make it in inter-county hurling if you spend more than a few years away from practising the basic skills.

You will not be able to play at any sort of decent level in association football if you have not been playing the game and developing your skills from childhood up.

You will not pick up a hurley for the first time at 13 or kick a ball for the first time at 13 and play top-level hurling or association football respectively.

Many international rugby players never played the game before secondary school.

You only have to look at the Irish team themselves to see the paucity in so called skill levels. Most forwards are literally unable to pass the ball more than two yards.

Wexford play at a higher level than I suspect you ever played at, in any code - unless you'd care to enlighten us?

You refuse to define your level for association football - but the simple fact is that the skills of association football are the easiest to learn and practice by yourself with a ball (try practicing a lineout on your own, or hurling without a gable wall or handball alley, or high fielding on your own). Also with the prevalence of five a side games, most active athletes in any code would I'm sure able to give an account of themselves at your mysterious level - let's call it Leinster Senior league, will we?

As for picking up a hurley, the first time I picked one up seriously was three days after my 13th birthday, and I joined the hurling team in my secondary school to get out of class. Five years later I had two Dublin colleges A medals in my pocket, captaining the team from corner back. Maybe not the highest level in the world, but athleticism and an enthusiasm for violence can take you a long way! What about someone like Conal Keaney who spent years away from the highest levels of hurling before coming back and playing in two All Ireland hurling semi finals, winning a Leinster title and a League? Is he the one exception to your rule?

How many didn't play until secondary school? Three or four? Thirty or forty? I thought the basic argument was that you had to be a toff, and only toffs play it - so what do they do up until secondary school than - these many? Subjective and unverifiable - unless you'd like to go through the current squad and say which ones?

So our forwards can't pass a ball more than two yards? I thought they passed better than the French forwards, given the amount of forward passes on their side. Can you pass a rugby ball better then them? Or are you taking about soccer passing - sorry Association football passing!! In that case, i'd still take athletes like Cian Healy or Rory Best to out pass you any day of the week.

[Kimbap]

BOD's parents were/are both doctors as far as I know.

That doesnt make them toffs to me. I'd say they are middle class and have done well for themselves (through hard work).

Sounds like someone has a chip on their shoulder.

BOD had your average, normal upbringing, with two parents doctors, living in Clontarf and going to Blackrock College. Your average, normal upbringing, the same as everybody else.

Class snobbery/superiority/inferiority complex at its best.I thought that was more of a British thing.

[Sidney]

Your first sentence is subjective (having played three of these games at reasonable level, I'd argue that you need to master more skills in Gaelic football, hurling and rugby then in soccer - hence soccer's appeal) and your second sentence is just plain wrong. You can say the inverse - I'm doing it now. Darcy said himself during the week he was a hurling man before he changed schools - you telling me an athlete with his physical gifts couldn't have made it as a Wexford corner forward?

Wexford don't play at a very high level these days, but no.

You will not make it in inter-county hurling if you spend more than a few years away from practising the basic skills.

You will not be able to play at any sort of decent level in association football if you have not been playing the game and developing your skills from childhood up.

You will not pick up a hurley for the first time at 13 or kick a ball for the first time at 13 and play top-level hurling or association football respectively.

Many international rugby players never played the game before secondary school.

You only have to look at the Irish team themselves to see the paucity in so called skill levels. Most forwards are literally unable to pass the ball more than two yards.

Wexford play at a higher level than I suspect you ever played at, in any code - unless you'd care to enlighten us?

You refuse to define your level for association football - but the simple fact is that the skills of association football are the easiest to learn and practice by yourself with a ball (try practicing a lineout on your own, or hurling without a gable wall or handball alley, or high fielding on your own). Also with the prevalence of five a side games, most active athletes in any code would I'm sure able to give an account of themselves at your mysterious level - let's call it Leinster Senior league, will we?

As for picking up a hurley, the first time I picked one up seriously was three days after my 13th birthday, and I joined the hurling team in my secondary school to get out of class. Five years later I had two Dublin colleges A medals in my pocket, captaining the team from corner back. Maybe not the highest level in the world, but athleticism and an enthusiasm for violence can take you a long way! What about someone like Conal Keaney who spent years away from the highest levels of hurling before coming back and playing in two All Ireland hurling semi finals, winning a Leinster title and a League? Is he the one exception to your rule?

How many didn't play until secondary school? Three or four? Thirty or forty? I thought the basic argument was that you had to be a toff, and only toffs play it - so what do they do up until secondary school than - these many? Subjective and unverifiable - unless you'd like to go through the current squad and say which ones?

So our forwards can't pass a ball more than two yards? I thought they passed better than the French forwards, given the amount of forward passes on their side. Can you pass a rugby ball better then them? Or are you taking about soccer passing - sorry Association football passing!! In that case, i'd still take athletes like Cian Healy or Rory Best to out pass you any day of the week.

Well. I've played in Croke Park*, which is something that no Wexford hurler has done for a long time.

I wasn't aware you had to be a top level sportsperson to comment on these forums. But I guess the show us your medals argument is one that's trotted out by somebody when they've nothing else to fall back on.

Neither Kevin Maggs nor, as I said, John Hayes, played the game until they were 18 and both played international rugby for many years, and in Hayes' case went right to the highest level of rugby there is - the British Loins.

Can you name me an association football player who never played the game until 18 at made it to the top level - ie World Cup or the top division of a major European league? Don't bother saying Kevin Moran or Niall Quinn as you'd be wrong.

Can I pass a rugby ball better than Paul O'Connell or Cian Healy? Well i) if you're measuring a supposed international-class athlete against me, I'll take that as a tacit admission that they are not possessed with a high level of  skill, and ii) I have played rugby**, and could at least spin the ball when passing, so yes, I can pass a ball better. That isn't saying much, mind.

Conal Keaney to the best of my knowledge has always played club hurling at a pretty high level (ie winning our county titles in a row) 2007-10, even when concentrating on football at inter-county level, and you can also bet your life that he was practising away in preparation for when he eventually would return to the inter-county game.

*The fact that it was at Cumann na mBunscoil level is neither here nor there.
**A long, long time ago.

[Sidney]

BOD's parents were/are both doctors as far as I know.

That doesnt make them toffs to me. I'd say they are middle class and have done well for themselves (through hard work).

Sounds like someone has a chip on their shoulder.

BOD had your average, normal upbringing, with two parents doctors, living in Clontarf and going to Blackrock College. Your average, normal upbringing, the same as everybody else.

Class snobbery/superiority/inferiority complex at its best.I thought that was more of a British thing.

No, it's merely pointing out that the notion that growing up in one of Dublin's most affluent areas, being brought up by two doctors, and attending the country's most "prestigious" school constitutes an "ordinary" upbringing is utterly laughable.

[Kimbap]

BOD's parents were/are both doctors as far as I know.

That doesnt make them toffs to me. I'd say they are middle class and have done well for themselves (through hard work).

Sounds like someone has a chip on their shoulder.

BOD had your average, normal upbringing, with two parents doctors, living in Clontarf and going to Blackrock College. Your average, normal upbringing, the same as everybody else.

Class snobbery/superiority/inferiority complex at its best.I thought that was more of a British thing.

No, it's just pointing out that the notion that growing up in one of Dublin's most affluent areas, having both parents working as a doctor, and attending the country's most "prestigious" school constitutes an "ordinary" upbringing is utterly laughable.

My God,You are one angry and confused lad,

Thats BOD's  particular background,

Give me an example of what is suitably deemed "ordinary"by you and I'll give you an example of a current international with a similar background.

[Sidney]

My God,You are one angry and confused lad,

Thats BOD's  particular background,

Give me an example of what is suitably deemed "ordinary"by you and I'll give you an example of a current international with a similar background.

Where did I say I had anything against Brian O'Driscoll's background?

Tony Benn had an even more privileged upbringing and he's one of my heroes.

I'm only pointing out that the notion that Brian O'Driscoll had an "ordinary" upbringing is plainly ludicrous. Which it is.

[BennyCake]

Association football has a far greater "culture of respect" than rugby.

Ah here . . . are you joking??!!

Were those union jacks left behind from when the IRFU used to still fly them at Lansdowne Road until the late 1920s?

Do explain...

[Kimbap]

My God,You are one angry and confused lad,

Thats BOD's  particular background,

Give me an example of what is suitably deemed "ordinary"by you and I'll give you an example of a current international with a similar background.

Where did I say I had anything against Brian O'Driscoll's background?

Tony Benn had an even more privileged upbringing and he's one of my heroes.

I'm only pointing out that the notion that Brian O'Driscoll had an "ordinary" upbringing is plainly ludicrous. Which it is.

And im pointing out that an ordinary background as you call it (ffs) Means different things to different people.

I don't even know what your argument is.

[Sidney]

And im pointing out that an ordinary background as you call it (ffs) Means different things to different people.

I don't even know what your argument is.

If you grew up in the top 2-3% of the population as measured by socio-economic criteria, I guess you could call it an ordinary upbringing.

But a quick internet search for a definition of "ordinary" tells us it is "what is commonplace or standard". Ireland must be a very, very affluent society indeed if living in one of the country's most affluent areas, being raised by two doctors and going to Blackrock College is standard.

+1 on the "I don't know what your argument is" - I haven't a clue what point you're trying to make, and I think at this stage your seethingness has confused even yourself.

[deiseach]

Tom Humphries, a DPP file is awaiting him.

Where's dublinfella to tell us how the GAA needs to engage in some soul-searching?

[Kimbap]

And im pointing out that an ordinary background as you call it (ffs) Means different things to different people.

I don't even know what your argument is.

If you grew up in the top 2-3% of the population as measured by socio-economic criteria, I guess you could call it an ordinary upbringing.

But a quick internet search for a definition of "ordinary" tells us it is "what is commonplace or standard". Ireland must be a very, very affluent society indeed if living in one of the country's most affluent areas, being raised by two doctors and going to Blackrock College is standard.

+1 on the "I don't know what your argument is" - I haven't a clue what point you're trying to make, and I think at this stage your seethingness has confused even yourself.

This is totally pointless but im pretty sure BOD's family was not in the top 2-3 percentile of wealthy families in Ireland (not that it matters)

I wish you and your nutjob theories were around when i was kid.I played several different sports,if only  there was somebody like you who i could have explained my parents socio economic situation to at the time and then you could point me in the direction of which sport to concentrate on.

You're awfully confused and/or deliberately ignorant.

[easytiger95]

Your first sentence is subjective (having played three of these games at reasonable level, I'd argue that you need to master more skills in Gaelic football, hurling and rugby then in soccer - hence soccer's appeal) and your second sentence is just plain wrong. You can say the inverse - I'm doing it now. Darcy said himself during the week he was a hurling man before he changed schools - you telling me an athlete with his physical gifts couldn't have made it as a Wexford corner forward?

Wexford don't play at a very high level these days, but no.

You will not make it in inter-county hurling if you spend more than a few years away from practising the basic skills.

You will not be able to play at any sort of decent level in association football if you have not been playing the game and developing your skills from childhood up.

You will not pick up a hurley for the first time at 13 or kick a ball for the first time at 13 and play top-level hurling or association football respectively.

Many international rugby players never played the game before secondary school.

You only have to look at the Irish team themselves to see the paucity in so called skill levels. Most forwards are literally unable to pass the ball more than two yards.

Wexford play at a higher level than I suspect you ever played at, in any code - unless you'd care to enlighten us?

You refuse to define your level for association football - but the simple fact is that the skills of association football are the easiest to learn and practice by yourself with a ball (try practicing a lineout on your own, or hurling without a gable wall or handball alley, or high fielding on your own). Also with the prevalence of five a side games, most active athletes in any code would I'm sure able to give an account of themselves at your mysterious level - let's call it Leinster Senior league, will we?

As for picking up a hurley, the first time I picked one up seriously was three days after my 13th birthday, and I joined the hurling team in my secondary school to get out of class. Five years later I had two Dublin colleges A medals in my pocket, captaining the team from corner back. Maybe not the highest level in the world, but athleticism and an enthusiasm for violence can take you a long way! What about someone like Conal Keaney who spent years away from the highest levels of hurling before coming back and playing in two All Ireland hurling semi finals, winning a Leinster title and a League? Is he the one exception to your rule?

How many didn't play until secondary school? Three or four? Thirty or forty? I thought the basic argument was that you had to be a toff, and only toffs play it - so what do they do up until secondary school than - these many? Subjective and unverifiable - unless you'd like to go through the current squad and say which ones?

So our forwards can't pass a ball more than two yards? I thought they passed better than the French forwards, given the amount of forward passes on their side. Can you pass a rugby ball better then them? Or are you taking about soccer passing - sorry Association football passing!! In that case, i'd still take athletes like Cian Healy or Rory Best to out pass you any day of the week.

Well. I've played in Croke Park*, which is something that no Wexford hurler has done for a long time.

I wasn't aware you had to be a top level sportsperson to comment on these forums. But I guess the show us your medals argument is one that's trotted out by somebody when they've nothing else to fall back on.

Neither Kevin Maggs nor, as I said, John Hayes, played the game until they were 18 and both played international rugby for many years, and in Hayes' case went right to the highest level of rugby there is - the British Loins.

Can you name me an association football player who never played the game until 18 at made it to the top level - ie World Cup or the top division of a major European league? Don't bother saying Kevin Moran or Niall Quinn as you'd be wrong.

Can I pass a rugby ball better than Paul O'Connell or Cian Healy? Well i) if you're measuring a supposed international-class athlete against me, I'll take that as a tacit admission that they are not possessed with a high level of  skill, and ii) I have played rugby**, and could at least spin the ball when passing, so yes, I can pass a ball better. That isn't saying much, mind.

Conal Keaney to the best of my knowledge has always played club hurling at a pretty high level (ie winning our county titles in a row) 2007-10, even when concentrating on football at inter-county level, and you can also bet your life that he was practising away in preparation for when he eventually would return to the inter-county game.

*The fact that it was at Cumann na mBunscoil level is neither here nor there.
**A long, long time ago.

Very dishonest arguments Sidney.

First up, you make a joke of Wexford not playing in Croker but you have - but sure it was only Cumann Na mBunscoil. Well, as i said in my post, I've played there as well - doesn't bring me anywhere close to the level of a current Wexford intercounty hurler, let alone the guys who played for them in the 80's and 90's, Very insulting to lads who are at a level way beyond yourself.

As for being an elite sportsman to comment, i never said that. What I did was to ask you to define the "levels" you are spouting on about. In the absence of that, we can only ask what your qualifications are to make the huge generalisations you are making. Again, if you are just a casual observer of rugby like the rest of us (I've played a couple of games with the oval ball, but I would never rate myself an expert) then stating the the Irish forwards cannot pass, or that rugby is an game without skills compared to hurling/Gaelic/soccer is exposed as the uninformed ignorance that it is. Barstool opinions and you know what opinions are like, don't you?

No I can't name you an "association" football player who left the game at 18 to try another - and given the ubiquity of soccer globally that is not very surprising, even less surprising in Ireland when up to even 20 years ago going between sports was hugely frowned upon (as for Kev Moran and Niall Quinn, there are still some who mourn their loss to Dublin GAA, despite Italia 90).

With Maggs and Hayes, you are completely discounting the possibility of natural aptitude, particularly on the part of Hayes. Not surprising that someone with his bulk (but agile as well with it) was made to be a prop. He is a very interesting example, because initially it was his lifting and open play that brought him to the attention of Munster and Ireland - his scrummaging was widely derided (by George Hook and others for about 10 years) and it was only in the twilight of his career that he got any credit for it. So it took him over ten years to learn the principle role of his position.

As for him making the Lions squad, well I'm glad you brought it up, because it is just another example of your dishonest argument. As you well know, the playing population in rugby both here in Ireland, and globally is far more shallow than in soccer - so put bluntly, there are less people between the bottom and the top of the game. The fact that Hayes made a Lions squad (did he go as a replacement? I think he did) does not illustrate an inherent lack of skills in the game itself - rather a much shallower pool of talent to choose from.

Staying with Hayes, you say you played a bit of rugby - well I'm assuming a talented tyro such as yourself was on the wing, or perhaps fullback? If I'm right about that, if you went in at prop you would have got minced at the first scrum, possibly even spinally injured. Rugby, more than all the other games in question, demands specialisation. John Hayes could not do what BOD did - but the reverse is also true. Different attributes, qualities - different skills. Sheflin can't play flanker - i wouldn't let Sean O'Brien take a 65 (though apparently he is handy enough with a hurl) - that doesn't make Sean O'Brien a dud with no skills.

I'm certainly not measuring you against Paul O'Connell - you are doing that by saying he and the other Irish forwards cannot pass. So I naturally ask how would you know? And then you say you've played a few games and you can spin the ball, so obviously you must be better at passing than them. I'm assuming you made these passes with Pape, Picamoles and Basteraud hanging off you, yes? I'm using the French players as an example because I can only picture you at home, wearing a tricorner hat, swearing that you are Napoleon. Your delusion knows no bounds.

As for Conal Keaney - your original point was that no one could leave the intercounty game for a few years and then pick it up again - which is exactly what he did. As for his club career, well we get back to the question of levels - I think senior club hurling in Dublin is a very high level, and I am also confident that any of those hurlers would make a fist of it at Leinster Senior League level in soccer, which I would also consider to be a high level. I also think that certain members of the Irish rugby team eg O'Driscoll, Darcy, the Kearneys, Sexton, Trimble - could also play Leinster senior League through pure athleticism and temperament. They might take a little longer with hurling (because unlike soccer/gaelic/rugby there are two variables, stick and ball, rather than one) but with application I'm sure they could get to intermediate/senior level depending on aptitude.

To downgrade the achievements of the rugby team at the time of their greatest victory is nothing more than trollery, and sure we don't mind a bit of back and forth. But saying you can pass a rugby ball better than POC or Cian Healy??!! Do you live under a bridge?

[Sidney]

As for Conal Keaney - your original point was that no one could leave the intercounty game for a few years and then pick it up again - which is exactly what he did.

That wasn't what I said - what I said was: "You will not make it in inter-county hurling if you spend more than a few years away from practising the basic skills."

Conal Keaney did not do that - he was playing club hurling at a high level with the Dublin champions.

So there's a dishonest argument on your part right there.