A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

[johnnycool]

Is 47% not voting not enough of a message rather than drawing a d**k on the ballot papers?

It would be immaterial to the victor on the day, but should stimulate the other parties who failed to get elected to chase after the spoiled vote.

The only difference in drawing a díck on your ballot paper and not voting is that the person drawing the díck has shown a willingness to get involved in the process rather than be ambivalent and sit at home scratching their holes.

[weareros]

We need to get to a place where united Ireland vs the Union is not green vs orange ... for those who promote a UI, they need to show why it is better both culturally and economically.  Likewise, those who promote the status quo of the union, need to explain in great detail as to why the union is better.  Let's have that big discussion and see where it goes, it may take the next 10+ years to have it, but let's have it.  Just demanding one or the other blindly does not suffice.

IMO NI is a failed entity, Unionists have failed NI, partition has failed this whole island.  But my opinion is worth nothing unless I back it up with hard facts.  My unionist colleagues in work have no argument to the economic fact that NI is a public sector dependent basket case.  Where's Google, Apple, Facebook, Twitter, Intel, IBM, HP etc etc based in the north?  Nowhere is the answer.

Successive British governments and their policies here have helped make the north a basket case. That's why there's no sign of google or Apple up here.

Are google and Apple in RoI because they are successful economies or because they are tax rate whores? If uk lowered corporate tax or allowed a lower rate in NI would NI compete with RoI for these mobile firms?

Would Alabama be able to compete with California? As well as looking to make filthy profits, these companies are also eager to attract a talented workforce, so lifestyle and other factors are important too.

Are you suggesting that the talent pool and lifestyle is inferior in Belfast than say Cork or Galway?

Not really. These top tech brands attract global workforces and Dublin is a desirable location. Despite all the bitching and moaning we ourselves do, it's a top global city with a thriving tech scene. For the record, I strongly believe Belfast and the North will thrive in a United Ireland. It is not just about low Corp tax, it's about how you go about attracting international investment, tourism, how you make friends abroad and the like. For all our faults we have done a decent job.

[Franko]

Is 47% not voting not enough of a message rather than drawing a d**k on the ballot papers?

It would be immaterial to the victor on the day, but should stimulate the other parties who failed to get elected to chase after the spoiled vote.

The only difference in drawing a díck on your ballot paper and not voting is that the person drawing the díck has shown a willingness to get involved in the process rather than be ambivalent and sit at home scratching their holes.

Correct IMO.

Had this debate before on here.

What's the alternative if you don't deem any of the candidates worth voting for?*

*smelmoth posts immediately telling me to vote Alliance anyway.

[LooseCannon]

Is 47% not voting not enough of a message rather than drawing a d**k on the ballot papers?

There are people who have successfully appealed votes initially declared spoilt(ed) on account of a penis being drawn beside their name and their name only.

[smelmoth]

Vote Alliance

[Applesisapples]

Is 47% not voting not enough of a message rather than drawing a d**k on the ballot papers?

There are people who have successfully appealed votes initially declared spoilt(ed) on account of a penis being drawn beside their name and their name only.

In other words Vote unionist

[general_lee]

On the whole 50+1 thing, unionists are simply going to have to like it or lump it. The thing is, things will never be as bad for them in a United Ireland as they were for nationalists in the northern state and therefore scaremongering of violence is pointless. Unionists will be welcomed into a United Ireland. Likewise anyone who wishes is welcome to move to Britain.

Going to have to lump it?
Anyone who wishes is welcome to move to Britain

The very definition of welcome. Does this fit with SF's shared space or shared future or is it completely at odds with political nationalism and political republicanism?
How will it work with continuing power sharing in NI within a united ireland?

Forget Sinn Fein for a moment if you can, it's *MY* view of a shared future.

I can't abide loyalists at the best of times, and I'm sure you can't either, whether you care to admit it or not. I'm at the stage now where I care less and less for them and their community. Ordinary decent Unionists I have no issue with, they should be always be accommodated and have their concerns addressed in any future unified state.

I'm not a politician, I don't have a blueprint of how loyalists are going to seamlessly fit into a UI because I don't give a rats arse about them. Hopefully they'll follow the example of Arlene (the leader of the party that does diddly squat for them but they vote for in their droves anyway) and make like a tree.

[BennyCake]

The buzz phrase seems to be "how unionists can be accommodated in a United ireland". What does that even mean?

Everyone will equally have access to education, healthcare, benefits, roads, etc. Everyday life will roll on. School, work, pub, walk the dog, watch telly etc. They'll do the same daily things as everyone else.

The only thing that is different about unionists from nationalists is their culture. They'll still fly their union flag and swear allegiance to Lizzie, Willy or baby Archie or whoever. They'll still want to march and light bonfires. They already play the "our culture is being eroded" card in the north under the uk. They haven't walked the Garvaghy Road in 20 years. Will part of this "accommodating unionists in a UI" thing mean they'll get to march down it again?

[Eamonnca1]

Yeah, why do people go the bother of going to vote, then spoil their vote.

Makes no sense to me.  A complete waste of time.

I disagree, if 47% (even 5-10%) of the electorate spoiled their vote, it would send a message to the existing parties that the electorate wants something different. When you don't vote at all, it's much easier to say "they can't complain if they can't be arsed voting"

I would consider a spoiled vote to mean "I'm so incompetent I don't know how to fill in a ballot properly" rather than "I demand something different from the parties on this ballot."

You'd hardly still think that if it was ~10% of the vote after a publicised campaign?

If you want to campaign for a specific outcome, it's customary to run a candidate.

[Eamonnca1]

The buzz phrase seems to be "how unionists can be accommodated in a United ireland". What does that even mean?

Everyone will equally have access to education, healthcare, benefits, roads, etc. Everyday life will roll on. School, work, pub, walk the dog, watch telly etc. They'll do the same daily things as everyone else.

The only thing that is different about unionists from nationalists is their culture. They'll still fly their union flag and swear allegiance to Lizzie, Willy or baby Archie or whoever. They'll still want to march and light bonfires. They already play the "our culture is being eroded" card in the north under the uk. They haven't walked the Garvaghy Road in 20 years. Will part of this "accommodating unionists in a UI" thing mean they'll get to march down it again?

Good questions.

I take it to mean, how can the structures of government in the north reflect the fact that there are a million people in there who have a somewhat different view of Britain than the people of the rest of the island? I'd be all in favour of a watered down Hong Kong / Macau situation where the north is governed as a "Special Administrative Region" after partition. Instead of restoring six county councils, let Stormont take on the same responsibilities as county councils. And if Stormont were to be scrapped and the north fully integrated with the rest of the island, require a two-thirds majority in the north to approve such an arrangement.

To your point about marches, I'd prefer it if the lodges could drop the sectarianism and become some sort of benevolent organizations that work to overcome division rather than celebrate it. By all means carry a union jack and celebrate your British citizenship and your protestant values, but cut out the political lobbying and drop the anti-catholic rules from your rule book. You might stand a better chance of marching in such a way that you'd be welcome in catholic areas if you're not perceived as a hostile outside force.

[Eamonnca1]

Not really. These top tech brands attract global workforces and Dublin is a desirable location. Despite all the bitching and moaning we ourselves do, it's a top global city with a thriving tech scene. For the record, I strongly believe Belfast and the North will thrive in a United Ireland. It is not just about low Corp tax, it's about how you go about attracting international investment, tourism, how you make friends abroad and the like. For all our faults we have done a decent job.

There's a lot of truth in that. Have you been reading David McWilliams' stuff? He talks about the restaurant count. Towns in the north have a far lower number of restaurants than towns with equivalent populations in the south. And he has all sorts of other measures for how the south is just a far more dynamic and competitive economy than the north. The tax haven stuff is only part of it. There's plenty of other tax havens in the world, but Silicon Valley doesn't generally look to the Caymen Islands if it wants to set up the next big R&D centre that needs an educated Anglophone workforce.

[smelmoth]

On the whole 50+1 thing, unionists are simply going to have to like it or lump it. The thing is, things will never be as bad for them in a United Ireland as they were for nationalists in the northern state and therefore scaremongering of violence is pointless. Unionists will be welcomed into a United Ireland. Likewise anyone who wishes is welcome to move to Britain.

Going to have to lump it?
Anyone who wishes is welcome to move to Britain

The very definition of welcome. Does this fit with SF's shared space or shared future or is it completely at odds with political nationalism and political republicanism?
How will it work with continuing power sharing in NI within a united ireland?

Forget Sinn Fein for a moment if you can, it's *MY* view of a shared future.

I can't abide loyalists at the best of times, and I'm sure you can't either, whether you care to admit it or not. I'm at the stage now where I care less and less for them and their community. Ordinary decent Unionists I have no issue with, they should be always be accommodated and have their concerns addressed in any future unified state.

I'm not a politician, I don't have a blueprint of how loyalists are going to seamlessly fit into a UI because I don't give a rats arse about them. Hopefully they'll follow the example of Arlene (the leader of the party that does diddly squat for them but they vote for in their droves anyway) and make like a tree.

The loyalist vs unionist distinction is interesting. Likewise republican vs nationalist.

I'm sure you get the point that in a United Ireland unionists and loyalists will still be voting in a devolved NI with power sharing at stormont and likely mayoral rotations at LG level

[smelmoth]

The buzz phrase seems to be "how unionists can be accommodated in a United ireland". What does that even mean?

Everyone will equally have access to education, healthcare, benefits, roads, etc. Everyday life will roll on. School, work, pub, walk the dog, watch telly etc. They'll do the same daily things as everyone else.

The only thing that is different about unionists from nationalists is their culture. They'll still fly their union flag and swear allegiance to Lizzie, Willy or baby Archie or whoever. They'll still want to march and light bonfires. They already play the "our culture is being eroded" card in the north under the uk. They haven't walked the Garvaghy Road in 20 years. Will part of this "accommodating unionists in a UI" thing mean they'll get to march down it again?

Good questions.

I take it to mean, how can the structures of government in the north reflect the fact that there are a million people in there who have a somewhat different view of Britain than the people of the rest of the island? I'd be all in favour of a watered down Hong Kong / Macau situation where the north is governed as a "Special Administrative Region" after partition. Instead of restoring six county councils, let Stormont take on the same responsibilities as county councils. And if Stormont were to be scrapped and the north fully integrated with the rest of the island, require a two-thirds majority in the north to approve such an arrangement.

To your point about marches, I'd prefer it if the lodges could drop the sectarianism and become some sort of benevolent organizations that work to overcome division rather than celebrate it. By all means carry a union jack and celebrate your British citizenship and your protestant values, but cut out the political lobbying and drop the anti-catholic rules from your rule book. You might stand a better chance of marching in such a way that you'd be welcome in catholic areas if you're not perceived as a hostile outside force.

Stormont and power sharing will continue. Can't see London agreeing to anything else

[macdanger2]

Yeah, why do people go the bother of going to vote, then spoil their vote.

Makes no sense to me.  A complete waste of time.

I disagree, if 47% (even 5-10%) of the electorate spoiled their vote, it would send a message to the existing parties that the electorate wants something different. When you don't vote at all, it's much easier to say "they can't complain if they can't be arsed voting"

I would consider a spoiled vote to mean "I'm so incompetent I don't know how to fill in a ballot properly" rather than "I demand something different from the parties on this ballot."

You'd hardly still think that if it was ~10% of the vote after a publicised campaign?

If you want to campaign for a specific outcome, it's customary to run a candidate.

But if 10% of the vote was spoiled, wouldn't you get the point that those people  "demand something different from the parties on this ballot."?

[BennyCake]

The buzz phrase seems to be "how unionists can be accommodated in a United ireland". What does that even mean?

Everyone will equally have access to education, healthcare, benefits, roads, etc. Everyday life will roll on. School, work, pub, walk the dog, watch telly etc. They'll do the same daily things as everyone else.

The only thing that is different about unionists from nationalists is their culture. They'll still fly their union flag and swear allegiance to Lizzie, Willy or baby Archie or whoever. They'll still want to march and light bonfires. They already play the "our culture is being eroded" card in the north under the uk. They haven't walked the Garvaghy Road in 20 years. Will part of this "accommodating unionists in a UI" thing mean they'll get to march down it again?

Good questions.

I take it to mean, how can the structures of government in the north reflect the fact that there are a million people in there who have a somewhat different view of Britain than the people of the rest of the island? I'd be all in favour of a watered down Hong Kong / Macau situation where the north is governed as a "Special Administrative Region" after partition. Instead of restoring six county councils, let Stormont take on the same responsibilities as county councils. And if Stormont were to be scrapped and the north fully integrated with the rest of the island, require a two-thirds majority in the north to approve such an arrangement.

To your point about marches, I'd prefer it if the lodges could drop the sectarianism and become some sort of benevolent organizations that work to overcome division rather than celebrate it. By all means carry a union jack and celebrate your British citizenship and your protestant values, but cut out the political lobbying and drop the anti-catholic rules from your rule book. You might stand a better chance of marching in such a way that you'd be welcome in catholic areas if you're not perceived as a hostile outside force.

Stormont and power sharing will continue. Can't see London agreeing to anything else

That's not really a United ireland though is it? If Dublin approves say, grants for school PE gear to each family, but Stormont says no, the 6 counties will still be treated differently to the 26. That's still partition in my eyes.

The fact that any decision for people in the 6 counties has to be passed by a unionist dominated government, is no different to what we have now.