The Stardust Fire

Started by Il Bomber Destro, December 15, 2017, 08:19:12 AM

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Syferus

Quote from: Rossfan on December 17, 2017, 08:03:42 PM
Yer a great buck for jumping to conclusions.
You have a rant about FF and connections and then ask me to answer your theory.
When I don't play your game you jump to another conclusion.

It's disgusting to use something like the Stardust tragedy as a flimsy excuse to play party politics.

Rossfan

Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on December 17, 2017, 08:34:50 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 17, 2017, 08:03:42 PM
Yer a great buck for jumping to conclusions.
You have a rant about FF and connections and then ask me to answer your theory.
When I don't play your game you jump to another conclusion.

I've proven my own theory, free stater like to turn a blind eye to the murky dealings of the establishment parties they vote in. Who do you vote for?
Will you be coming round with a baseball bat if I choose not to respond to your interrogation? :P
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Il Bomber Destro

Quote from: Rossfan on December 17, 2017, 09:16:05 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on December 17, 2017, 08:34:50 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 17, 2017, 08:03:42 PM
Yer a great buck for jumping to conclusions.
You have a rant about FF and connections and then ask me to answer your theory.
When I don't play your game you jump to another conclusion.

I've proven my own theory, free stater like to turn a blind eye to the murky dealings of the establishment parties they vote in. Who do you vote for?
Will you be coming round with a baseball bat if I choose not to respond to your interrogation? :P

I think your refusal to display transparency on who you vote for adds clarity to your defence/indifference of the establishment parties and their murky dealings.

I just find it odd that there are posters who here who are not outraged at these incidents, the outrage from the masses here can be very loud when republicans committed violent acts during their conflict with the British government.

I suppose you deserve credit for engaging directly, which is more than your fellow cowardly countyman can claim.

The Stardust families have been searching for answers and accountability for 36 years, the state has consistently obstructed their search for justice and the media/public have displayed indifference to it, just like they've done with Mary Boyle, Fr Niall Molloy, Grace, Dublin/Monaghan bombings etc etc.

Over the course of this thread, we've had posters look to avoid commenting on the case, saying the families should drop it, dismissing the claims out of hand, upholding the credibility of the department of justice (yes, really). I haven't seen any, bar Seafoid, speak with any degree of compassion or empathy with the victims of the Stardust fire and how the State have actively tried to obstruct justice.

We've recently seen how far the political establishment have gone with trying to discredit a Garda whistleblower - top brass Gardai, ministers for Justice, journalists, child welfare state bodies all compromised in a hideous smear campaign and you guys are still going around like a bunch of ostriches?

Tyrdub

At the time of the Stardust I was living in Coolock at the time, I know some of the families who lost loved ones and who had to bring home people so changed by the fire, both physically and mentally,  that they may as well have been different people altogether. I know everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is a bit sickening to see "grown ups" on here trying to score political points on each other about an incident which is possibly one of the worst the Irish State will ever see, instead of actually debating the incident itself, the causes, the damage, the ramifications since then. I have seen first hand the scars some people were left with, maybe if the clowns on here saw them they might stop acting like children

macdanger2

Quote from: Tyrdub on December 18, 2017, 09:02:06 AM
At the time of the Stardust I was living in Coolock at the time, I know some of the families who lost loved ones and who had to bring home people so changed by the fire, both physically and mentally,  that they may as well have been different people altogether. I know everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is a bit sickening to see "grown ups" on here trying to score political points on each other about an incident which is possibly one of the worst the Irish State will ever see, instead of actually debating the incident itself, the causes, the damage, the ramifications since then. I have seen first hand the scars some people were left with, maybe if the clowns on here saw them they might stop acting like children

Just finished watching the Charlie Bird documentary about it, apart from the obvious lives lost, the cost to those left behind was huge. It makes for tough watching

The original verdict of arson seems like it was a complete stitch up, designed to get compensation for the owners. It must really stick in the craw of the relatives that "Butterly business park" is now located there. At least that verdict has since been quashed and changed to unknown cause

tonto1888

Quote from: Syferus on December 17, 2017, 08:38:39 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 17, 2017, 08:03:42 PM
Yer a great buck for jumping to conclusions.
You have a rant about FF and connections and then ask me to answer your theory.
When I don't play your game you jump to another conclusion.

It's disgusting to use something like the Stardust tragedy as a flimsy excuse to play party politics.

Interesting.

Syferus

Quote from: tonto1888 on January 13, 2018, 11:13:53 PM
Quote from: Syferus on December 17, 2017, 08:38:39 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 17, 2017, 08:03:42 PM
Yer a great buck for jumping to conclusions.
You have a rant about FF and connections and then ask me to answer your theory.
When I don't play your game you jump to another conclusion.

It's disgusting to use something like the Stardust tragedy as a flimsy excuse to play party politics.

Interesting.

I'm afraid you've managed to find something that doesn't help your case at all.

Il Bomber Destro

Quote from: Syferus on January 13, 2018, 11:27:38 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 13, 2018, 11:13:53 PM
Quote from: Syferus on December 17, 2017, 08:38:39 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 17, 2017, 08:03:42 PM
Yer a great buck for jumping to conclusions.
You have a rant about FF and connections and then ask me to answer your theory.
When I don't play your game you jump to another conclusion.

It's disgusting to use something like the Stardust tragedy as a flimsy excuse to play party politics.

Interesting.

I'm afraid you've managed to find something that doesn't help your case at all.

Hypocrite.

tonto1888

Quote from: Syferus on January 13, 2018, 11:27:38 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on January 13, 2018, 11:13:53 PM
Quote from: Syferus on December 17, 2017, 08:38:39 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 17, 2017, 08:03:42 PM
Yer a great buck for jumping to conclusions.
You have a rant about FF and connections and then ask me to answer your theory.
When I don't play your game you jump to another conclusion.

It's disgusting to use something like the Stardust tragedy as a flimsy excuse to play party politics.

Interesting.

I'm afraid you've managed to find something that doesn't help your case at all.

I don't have a case but I find it interesting what you think can and cannot be used for political point scoring

seafoid

Peter Casey claims the Stardust families asked him to work for them
https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2018/1028/1007202-politics/

They want the case reopened and they want the cause of the fire to be defined.

You can feel the contempt the judge had for the families by reading his report on the third review

https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/2017/11/mccartan-report-into-stardust-fire.pdf
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

seafoid



A new inquest into the deaths of 48 people killed in the fire in the Stardust nightclub, in Artane, north Dublin in 1981 has begun.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/why-were-our-children-brought-into-a-fire-trap-stardust-families-seek-answers-1.4483097Each of the families who spoke to The Irish Times describe their gratitude for the tenacity of Antoinette Keegan and her mother, Christine (85), who died last year.

They, supported by Maurice Frazer and Gertrude Barrett who lost her son Michael (17), kept the tragedy in the public consciousness.

"There were times when I did turn around and say, 'Ma we are banging our head off a brick wall. We need to forget about this'", says Antoinette. "She'd say, 'No. They were our beautiful daughters, they were ours and they were taken. I will not be told to forget about this'. And of course then, I promised to stand by her 110 per cent.

"I am glad now she had the push that she gave me that drive . . . If it had not been for my ma there would be no inquests."
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

seafoid

#41
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/05/13/pat-gilroy-i-couldnt-do-a-managers-job-now-everything-has-changed-since-2011/
Pat Gilroy looked around the room and apologised that things were a small bit rushed. Alongside him were James McCarthy, Evan Comerford and Paddy Small, northsiders who weren't even born when the Valentine's Night fire in an Artane nightclub claimed 48 lives in February 1982. Sitting in front of them, the families cradled portraits of their lost people, framed and frozen in time.

"This is very important to us," Gilroy told the families. "I can't even begin to understand the upset that you have for this length of time. This was a horrendous thing to happen and it affected everyone from the northeast part of Dublin.

"I was 10 years old, living in Raheny. My first cousin was in the fire and got badly injured. My mother fostered a girl and after she got married, her husband's brother died in the fire. It was the worst thing that happened in our lives."

Gilroy spoke for a while without notes, about justice and loss and all the wrongs of all the years. Holding the room with humanity. The reason they invited the families was to present them with a specially-designed training top. The Dubs wanted to put something on the jersey for the year but a new GAA rule precludes that type of thing now.

So this was what they came up with – training tops with the Stardust 48 logo on them, produced for the families alone. They'll never be for sale. They'll never be for anyone else. They're nothing much and they're everything at the same time. A reminder to the families as they head into months of inquests that the Dublin football team has their backs.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

marty34

Quote from: seafoid on May 13, 2023, 12:02:21 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/05/13/pat-gilroy-i-couldnt-do-a-managers-job-now-everything-has-changed-since-2011/
Pat Gilroy looked around the room and apologised that things were a small bit rushed. Alongside him were James McCarthy, Evan Comerford and Paddy Small, northsiders who weren't even born when the Valentine's Night fire in an Artane nightclub claimed 48 lives in February 1982. Sitting in front of them, the families cradled portraits of their lost people, framed and frozen in time.

"This is very important to us," Gilroy told the families. "I can't even begin to understand the upset that you have for this length of time. This was a horrendous thing to happen and it affected everyone from the northeast part of Dublin.

"I was 10 years old, living in Raheny. My first cousin was in the fire and got badly injured. My mother fostered a girl and after she got married, her husband's brother died in the fire. It was the worst thing that happened in our lives."

Gilroy spoke for a while without notes, about justice and loss and all the wrongs of all the years. Holding the room with humanity. The reason they invited the families was to present them with a specially-designed training top. The Dubs wanted to put something on the jersey for the year but a new GAA rule precludes that type of thing now.

So this was what they came up with – training tops with the Stardust 48 logo on them, produced for the families alone. They'll never be for sale. They'll never be for anyone else. They're nothing much and they're everything at the same time. A reminder to the families as they head into months of inquests that the Dublin football team has their backs.

A great touch by Dublinn GAA.

Jell 0 Biafra

So very sad they still have to fight for this.

seafoid

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2023/06/14/draughtsman-who-drew-up-stardust-renovation-plans-had-not-read-fire-standards-inquests-hear/
Draughtsman who drew up Stardust renovation plans had not read fire standards, inquests hear
Harold Gardner, now dead, gave evidence in 1981 that 'fire department knew' what was being recommended

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The aftermath of the Stardust fire in Artane, photographed in 1981. Photograph: Tom Lawlor
Kitty Holland Social Affairs Correspondent
Wed Jun 14 2023 - 16:18

The draughtsman who drew up plans for the Stardust nightclub in north Dublin, where 48 young people died in a fire in 1981, had not read statutory fire-protection standards for buildings when the venue was being refurbished, inquests into the deaths have heard.

Fresh inquests into the deaths of the 48, aged between 16 and 27, who died in a fire at the Artane ballroom in the early hours of February 14th, 1981 are being heard in Dublin Coroner's Court, following a recommendation in 2019 by then attorney general Séamus Woulfe.

On Wednesday, testimony from Harold Gardner, a draughtsman who drew up plans for the conversion of a former food factory into an entertainment venue, was read into the record. Mr Gardner, who is dead, gave evidence at the 1981 tribunal of inquiry chaired by Mr Justice Ronan Keane.

Mr Gardner told the 1981 inquiry he had not specified seating-upholstery should be fireproof and had not checked whether carpet tiles being placed on the Stardust walls complied with fire regulations. At that inquiry it was stated carpet tiles on the walls contributed to the rapidity with which fire engulfed the venue.

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Asked in 1981 whether he recommended to Patrick Butterly, who owned the venue and who is also dead, installing a sprinkler system, Mr Garner said: "I believe I suggested it on one occasion... but he wasn't interested."

"Did you consider recommending that to Mr Butterly, that you should install hydraulic hose reels?" he was asked by counsel. "No," answered Mr Gardner.

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"Do you think in retrospect that might be a good idea?" "I don't think so."

Later he was asked: "Had you read the fire protection standards issued by the Department of Local Government in 1967?"

"I hadn't," he said. "You've never read them?" "No."

He said while he designed the Stardust's 1,460 seats he did not specify the foam to be used in their upholstery, or that the PVC covering should be "flame retardant".

"Should you not have done so?" he was asked at the 1981 tribunal. "Looking back possibly. At the time it seemed to be satisfactory," said Mr Gardner. "The fire department knew what we were recommending."

He had specified plaster be used on the walls as a fire-retardant and he was not consulted by Eamon Butterly, Stardust manager, about plans to use carpet tiles instead. When he saw them being stuck on the walls he asked Eamon Butterly if they were fire-resistant.


"I knew they should have a certain amount of flame-proofing," he told the tribunal. When asked if he understood what "surface-spread flame-rating" [a stipulation in the planning permission for the Stardust] meant, he said it meant if a tile did catch fire "it would not go all over the place". While he had known there were fire standards, he said, "I can't remember what they were."

He hadn't examined the tiles himself or interrogated what Eamon Butterly understood by "fireproof".

"I accepted him when he said they were fireproof. I did not have any reason to carry the matter any further," said Mr Gardner.

Elizabeth Marley, aged 17 at the time of the disaster, told the inquests she had been a waitress in the Stardust. She was collecting plates at about 1.35am when she "got the smell of smoke" as she passed a screened-off area known as the west alcove.

She told her mother, who managed the kitchen, and they went into the ballroom where they saw flames on a seat towards the back of the west alcove, through a gap in the blinds.

Edward McNamee, aged 16 at the time, worked as a lounge boy and glass-washer. He told the inquests the bar closed at 1.30am and he went to use the toilet. On his way back to the bar "a bloke" ran past looking for a fire-extinguisher.


One of the blinds over the west alcove went up, he said. "I saw the back of a chair on fire. The carpet under the chair was on fire as well. It spread towards the wall at the back which was also carpeted and that started to go on fire," he said.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU