The GAA Rat Race

[INDIANA]

I would agree with the tone of the posts on here. The demands are too high. The training schedule of county teams might come as a surprise to some but the reality is it's not being exaggerated. Who's to blame though? Is it the GAA for allowing the culture of training like a professional get out of control?

A few weeks ago Colm O'Rourke questioned the GPA about it's role within the organization. The response from the players was a united one. I got the impression the players are okay with what's being asked of them. For me though, the only way the demands will stop increasing is if the players themselves take a stand. At present the rules and regulations are very grey around this. There's a collective training ban depending on when you're knocked out but we all know managers are exploiting this and finding ways around it. In fairness, was it this time last year, Wexford took a stand against an under-age manager who was asking too much? But at the end of the day if the players, the men and women who makes the games happen, are happy to continue training like mad, then nothing will change.

Also on the training schedule, I think some people might still have an idea of training involving players doing loads of laps and a game. Nowadays though, there are weights sessions, running sessions, nutrition sessions, ball-work sessions, video-analysis sessions, probably a few more things too. It's a 24/7 job too, it's not the physical work, it's the mental preparation too. For example your diet and your sleep. Neil McGee said recently you'd be getting your yourself psyched up for a Donegal training, the moment you got out of bed. That's the level you have to be operating at.

The GPA are only interested in professionalism thats the reality. I've seen them on fund-raising drives in the States and that's what comes across. They've done nothing in terms of lobbying the GAA in terms of making some substantive changes in terms of the demands on players.

They know full well if the demands drop the move towards professionalism is over and they themselves as an organisation are reduced in importance. I've often heard Mc Geeney saying why should I reduce my professionalism. Because it's an amateur sport Kieran. Some people actually do have to work for a living.

The dangerous thing with the current scenario is that many players have to postpone promotions at work, careers etc and then when they retire from county level. They are left miles behind professionally of where they should be without anything like the money to compensate.

[Donnellys Hollow]

Football has completely lost the run of itself over the last fifteen years. I've heard of club teams who are training as hard as county teams did twenty years ago. Early morning training sessions before work, diets, gym programmes, training camps at bank holiday weekends etc.

I'm glad I had to stop playing when I did because all the enjoyment seems to be gone out of the game nowadays at senior level. The whole thing is taken way too seriously and the demands placed on young lads mainly in their twenties are extreme. Club reserve football or Junior B/C is probably the one remaining adult grade where lads can actually enjoy the game.

The elite county players will always do well out of their involvement but you have to wonder what's in it for the middle of the road county player these days. Ridiculous demands and pressure being placed upon them and not much hope of ever really achieving much success. At least twenty years ago they wouldn't have to put their lives on hold to anywhere near the same extent and not as much was demanded of them by mentors. The days of players still going well into their thirties are numbered. Kildare's Brian Flanagan retired earlier this month at the age of 29 and has been told by doctors that he will do well to get to 40 without needing a knee replacement. I'm sure there will be more stories like his in the years ahead.

[Red]

Why 5 nights a week? Surely the body needs a days rest in between training sessions? I'm no training expert but training everyday makes no sense whatsoever.

You're essentially trying to fit the workload of a professional athlete into an amateur structure. I think it's gone mad myself but if you're coaching at this level you've no choice because you won't be competitive otherwise. To me the season should be shorter, have more games and club championships not played until July.

The new fad for the first 3-4 months is to do double sessions on Tuesdays and Thursdays with a saturday and sunday session and give guys the days off in between. So six sessions in 7 days.

Then the following week will look like

Gym 6am Monday
Training Tuesday 7.30pm- pitch
Gym 6am Wednesday
Thursday 7.30pm -pitch
friday  6am - gym
Saturday - 11am -pitch
You get Sunday off!

then back into the tuesday/thursday double session cycle. The top 6 counties all train like the above structure. I know that for a fact.

The big issue for me as a coach who has the background in S&C is the load factor. If you're trying to bulk lads up - how can you do it safely when lads are sprinting the following night. The fact is you're on a wing and a prayer. It's a game based on short sharp bursts which means everything that is done- has to be done at speed. You're trying to give as much rest as possible. 36 hours is the maximum that one can get.

That's why so many teams have so many players injured at once and have to carry squads of 35-37 players. Because at any one time you're guaranteed to have 8-10 injured.

Nutrition is huge for an amateur player. You literally have to lumping protein into at every available opportunity when in this cycle. There are professional players in the GAA already- called students. They live like pro athletes and as a result most guys play their best football between 18-25.

This idea that GAA players at county level peak in their late 20's - rubbish- their best football is long played at that level. Once they start working 9-5 -it's the beginning of the end. The human body can only sustain the above until 30 unless they have no job or are teachers.

Not enough money in the game to be professional. It would be a disaster for the Association. But they've got to do something about the training and shorten the bloody season.

INDIANA

It's a while since I played the game and the introduction of weight training was beginning as I was finishing up but I did have a degree of interest in the concept of weight training separate to the field/ball based training. It was my understanding that after a field session and likewise a pitch session there was a recovery period required the next day - to allow repair of the muscle damage  caused during the session just gone.
If I have that right then how can three pitch sessions and three gym sessions in one week be right? Given your S+C knowledge/training can you enlighten me? thanks

[INDIANA]

Why 5 nights a week? Surely the body needs a days rest in between training sessions? I'm no training expert but training everyday makes no sense whatsoever.

You're essentially trying to fit the workload of a professional athlete into an amateur structure. I think it's gone mad myself but if you're coaching at this level you've no choice because you won't be competitive otherwise. To me the season should be shorter, have more games and club championships not played until July.

The new fad for the first 3-4 months is to do double sessions on Tuesdays and Thursdays with a saturday and sunday session and give guys the days off in between. So six sessions in 7 days.

Then the following week will look like

Gym 6am Monday
Training Tuesday 7.30pm- pitch
Gym 6am Wednesday
Thursday 7.30pm -pitch
friday  6am - gym
Saturday - 11am -pitch
You get Sunday off!

then back into the tuesday/thursday double session cycle. The top 6 counties all train like the above structure. I know that for a fact.

The big issue for me as a coach who has the background in S&C is the load factor. If you're trying to bulk lads up - how can you do it safely when lads are sprinting the following night. The fact is you're on a wing and a prayer. It's a game based on short sharp bursts which means everything that is done- has to be done at speed. You're trying to give as much rest as possible. 36 hours is the maximum that one can get.

That's why so many teams have so many players injured at once and have to carry squads of 35-37 players. Because at any one time you're guaranteed to have 8-10 injured.

Nutrition is huge for an amateur player. You literally have to lumping protein into at every available opportunity when in this cycle. There are professional players in the GAA already- called students. They live like pro athletes and as a result most guys play their best football between 18-25.

This idea that GAA players at county level peak in their late 20's - rubbish- their best football is long played at that level. Once they start working 9-5 -it's the beginning of the end. The human body can only sustain the above until 30 unless they have no job or are teachers.

Not enough money in the game to be professional. It would be a disaster for the Association. But they've got to do something about the training and shorten the bloody season.

INDIANA

It's a while since I played the game and the introduction of weight training was beginning as I was finishing up but I did have a degree of interest in the concept of weight training separate to the field/ball based training. It was my understanding that after a field session and likewise a pitch session there was a recovery period required the next day - to allow repair of the muscle damage  caused during the session just gone.
If I have that right then how can three pitch sessions and three gym sessions in one week be right? Given your S+C knowledge/training can you enlighten me? thanks

In a game that requires short sharp sprinting movements you can't keep players fast without proper weight training. Out of season is the only time you can do bulk work (put on a few kgs). But even then club and college team commitments get in the way.

In season like the one I described above guys would be doing as much plyometrics and bodyweight exercises as much as possible. But you do have to lift weights as well.  But gym work shouldn't be lifting huge weights in my view for GAA. That's for rugby players and the general juicers.

It's more the load factor. Even doing bodyweight exercises puts muscles under strain. And it's that strain that you bring into training the following day.
Its the lack of rest periods that differentiates amateur from professional. You're trying to prepare players for a current professional standard with huge restraints on you that you don't experience in a professional environment.

Armagh's training regime wouldn't surprise me under Geezer. He trains with Mc Gregor and other pro-athletes. I think he forgets however some of his players have to work too.

Its madness. I'd hate to play now can't be much fun in it anymore.

[Eamonnca1]

Good thread.

I think we have to remember that there are limits to what you can do with an amateur sport. The public might have an appetite for games every night of the week that they can watch on TV and played in opulent stadiums under floodlights. But amateur players have a lot on their plate and they can only spend so much time training, competing, and the small matter of all the time they have to spend driving around between all of this on top of the day job. So we maintain the tradition of playing on a Sunday when we know everyone will be available to play.

Who is to blame for the escalating workload on inter-county players? "Blame" is a bit of a loaded word, it implies that somebody somewhere is doing something wrong, but people can only work inside the system they're given. My view is that all high profile spectator sports have a certain competitive impetus. 

• Teams need sponsors to keep paying the bills.
• Sponsors need good value for money to make it worth their while.
• In a knockout competition, good value for sponsors means the team staying in the competition longer.
• Team needs to make bigger demands of players to keep them in the competition for longer to justify the sponsorship deal and increase the chances of renewal.

The result is an arms race between teams. If your opponents are training two nights a week, you'll bump your own training up to three nights a week. In response, they bump their training up to four nights a week. Up and up it goes until the calendar is full and every available second of a player's life is full of GAA-related activity.  Player burnout is sure to follow, and inter-county careers are getting shorter and shorter.

Something else to bear in mind about the amateur status is that its intention is to ensure that the game isn't corrupted by money. But Michael Cusack's original vision for sport was that the working man should be allowed to play. In his day, only "gentlemen" played sports. Organisations like the RFU and FA rigorously defended their amateur status of the time as a means of keeping the working man out of sport, because if there was one thing the upper classes hated in those days it was mingling with the plebs. Are we in danger of recreating those conditions today? I get the impression that the profile of a typical inter-county player is looking increasingly white collar. A lot of teachers, police, and professional types are now filling the ranks of county panels. This might be partly because society is becoming more white collar as the service sector becomes a bigger employer, but if you're a truck driver who works long hours or a builder who doesn't have as much energy to train at the end of a hard day, your chances of getting on a county panel are a whole lot slimmer than a civil servant who knocks off at 5 and has the whole weekend to himself. Is that fair on the working man? Could we be missing out on some great talent?

I'm all in favour of the amateur status and the great social capital that it generates, but we have to bear in mind that it has advantages and disadvantages too.

[Minder]

Good thread.

I think we have to remember that there are limits to what you can do with an amateur sport. The public might have an appetite for games every night of the week that they can watch on TV and played in opulent stadiums under floodlights. But amateur players have a lot on their plate and they can only spend so much time training, competing, and the small matter of all the time they have to spend driving around between all of this on top of the day job. So we maintain the tradition of playing on a Sunday when we know everyone will be available to play.

Who is to blame for the escalating workload on inter-county players? "Blame" is a bit of a loaded word, it implies that somebody somewhere is doing something wrong, but people can only work inside the system they're given. My view is that all high profile spectator sports have a certain competitive impetus. 

• Teams need sponsors to keep paying the bills.
• Sponsors need good value for money to make it worth their while.
• In a knockout competition, good value for sponsors means the team staying in the competition longer.
• Team needs to make bigger demands of players to keep them in the competition for longer to justify the sponsorship deal and increase the chances of renewal.

The result is an arms race between teams. If your opponents are training two nights a week, you'll bump your own training up to three nights a week. In response, they bump their training up to four nights a week. Up and up it goes until the calendar is full and every available second of a player's life is full of GAA-related activity.  Player burnout is sure to follow, and inter-county careers are getting shorter and shorter.

Something else to bear in mind about the amateur status is that its intention is to ensure that the game isn't corrupted by money. But Michael Cusack's original vision for sport was that the working man should be allowed to play. In his day, only "gentlemen" played sports. Organisations like the RFU and FA rigorously defended their amateur status of the time as a means of keeping the working man out of sport, because if there was one thing the upper classes hated in those days it was mingling with the plebs. Are we in danger of recreating those conditions today? I get the impression that the profile of a typical inter-county player is looking increasingly white collar. A lot of teachers, police, and professional types are now filling the ranks of county panels. This might be partly because society is becoming more white collar as the service sector becomes a bigger employer, but if you're a truck driver who works long hours or a builder who doesn't have as much energy to train at the end of a hard day, your chances of getting on a county panel are a whole lot slimmer than a civil servant who knocks off at 5 and has the whole weekend to himself. Is that fair on the working man? Could we be missing out on some great talent?

I'm all in favour of the amateur status and the great social capital that it generates, but we have to bear in mind that it has advantages and disadvantages too.

I don't know too many of them

[DennistheMenace]

I know of club teams are the minute who are training 3 times a week (November) for the season next year, I think their first league game is in April. Surely this is completely over the top, this is club nevermind County.

The motivation and commitment shown by gues slogging it out 5 days a week knowing in the heart of hearts they won't win anything this year is admirable. The managers pick up their pay (some of a per sessions basis) regardless

[Keyser soze]

There appears to be qute a lot of people on here talking a seriuous load of horse. On every [of the numerous] threads there has been on here about burnout I have asked for any evidence to show that players are leaving rthe game earlier than they did in the past. No one has as yet been ebale to furnish me with this evidence. I suspect that this is because it doesn't exist. Benny Coulter retiring at age 34??? after a 16 or 17 year career at senior county level is not evidence of 'burnout', I would argue that its quite the reverse.

Looking at the teams in this years AI SFC final as an example it doesnt strike me they were composed of a much younger age group than any previous group of players, and some of teir better performers have huge numbers in terms of championship appearences.

[thewobbler]

Paid managers (and their entourages) are almost certainly the the source cause of overtraining.

Think about this:

If you're paid per session, it's in your interests to fit in as many group sessions as possible.
If you're paid per week/month, it's in your interests to make the season as long as possible, and the only way to ensure that is to start earlier.
If you're an ambitious manager, you will want to gain a reputation for attention to detail and for getting teams fit, which means more sessions, tougher sessions, more detail.

The real problem for me is that a large part of this additional training is little more than nonsense, justified by an insistence that it delivers the "2%" that makes all the difference when otherwise evenly matched with an opponent.

Ironically, when Kerry won the biggest prize in our sport last year, it was the basic antithesis of this theory. They won the AI not because of a series of gradual improvements, but as a result of the changes they applied for the final four weeks of the  season. First they stopped playing silly buggers with Kieran Donaghy's role in the team, then secondly when between the SF and final, they went for an all-out defensive shape. Almost every tactical discussion prior to August was rendered obsolete by these changes.

As for fitness, an athletic man in his twenties doesn't need six months to get to peak fitness. He doesn't even need three months. Obviously everyone is different - there are those of us who put on weight a little easier - but the overwhelming majority of men who are committed to playing football surely wouldn't need more than a month to get core fitness up to scratch, and it's a fine-tuning exercise from there. These are committed athletes we're talking about, not lads being dragged from the pub on a Sunday morning.

If there was actually any substance in the thinking behind these elongated pre-seasons, then surely any leg injury that sees a 3+ weeks absence during a season, would result in an insurmountable deficit in the fitness required to play the game.

But players who miss 3-6 weeks with calf/hamstring/groin strains, before slotting straight back into the starting XV, well they exist at every level from Junior B to Senior County. By the time the next game comes along, they'll be expected to deliver as at full fitness too.

We are though living in the era of the God-like manager, and it appears (from everything I've heard) that this is actually what the players want: just like their managers, they don't want to accept the limitations of their natural abilities, and it's all about making sure the 2% is in place.

Sooner or later though, the financial pressure of these arrangements (as we know, it's not just paying managers: it's physios, coaches, nutritionists, psychologists) is going to ruin a series of county boards and clubs. At that point we might be able to rein it in a little, when for the first time in years administrators will be able to make a stand against this (GPA-fuelled) monstrosity... without fear of looking like they're holding back their county's development. But until the bubble does a rather loud burst, we are stuck with it.

[orangeman]

Paid managers (and their entourages) are almost certainly the the source cause of overtraining.

Think about this:

If you're paid per session, it's in your interests to fit in as many group sessions as possible.
If you're paid per week/month, it's in your interests to make the season as long as possible, and the only way to ensure that is to start earlier.
If you're an ambitious manager, you will want to gain a reputation for attention to detail and for getting teams fit, which means more sessions, tougher sessions, more detail.

The real problem for me is that a large part of this additional training is little more than nonsense, justified by an insistence that it delivers the "2%" that makes all the difference when otherwise evenly matched with an opponent.

Ironically, when Kerry won the biggest prize in our sport last year, it was the basic antithesis of this theory. They won the AI not because of a series of gradual improvements, but as a result of the changes they applied for the final four weeks of the  season. First they stopped playing silly buggers with Kieran Donaghy's role in the team, then secondly when between the SF and final, they went for an all-out defensive shape. Almost every tactical discussion prior to August was rendered obsolete by these changes.

As for fitness, an athletic man in his twenties doesn't need six months to get to peak fitness. He doesn't even need three months. Obviously everyone is different - there are those of us who put on weight a little easier - but the overwhelming majority of men who are committed to playing football surely wouldn't need more than a month to get core fitness up to scratch, and it's a fine-tuning exercise from there. These are committed athletes we're talking about, not lads being dragged from the pub on a Sunday morning.

If there was actually any substance in the thinking behind these elongated pre-seasons, then surely any leg injury that sees a 3+ weeks absence during a season, would result in an insurmountable deficit in the fitness required to play the game.

But players who miss 3-6 weeks with calf/hamstring/groin strains, before slotting straight back into the starting XV, well they exist at every level from Junior B to Senior County. By the time the next game comes along, they'll be expected to deliver as at full fitness too.

We are though living in the era of the God-like manager, and it appears (from everything I've heard) that this is actually what the players want: just like their managers, they don't want to accept the limitations of their natural abilities, and it's all about making sure the 2% is in place.

Sooner or later though, the financial pressure of these arrangements (as we know, it's not just paying managers: it's physios, coaches, nutritionists, psychologists) is going to ruin a series of county boards and clubs. At that point we might be able to rein it in a little, when for the first time in years administrators will be able to make a stand against this (GPA-fuelled) monstrosity... without fear of looking like they're holding back their county's development. But until the bubble does a rather loud burst, we are stuck with it.

I'm not agreeing with everything in this post but it's a decent starting point for a debate on the subject.

[INDIANA]

There appears to be qute a lot of people on here talking a seriuous load of horse. On every [of the numerous] threads there has been on here about burnout I have asked for any evidence to show that players are leaving rthe game earlier than they did in the past. No one has as yet been ebale to furnish me with this evidence. I suspect that this is because it doesn't exist. Benny Coulter retiring at age 34??? after a 16 or 17 year career at senior county level is not evidence of 'burnout', I would argue that its quite the reverse.

Looking at the teams in this years AI SFC final as an example it doesnt strike me they were composed of a much younger age group than any previous group of players, and some of teir better performers have huge numbers in terms of championship appearences.

The only one talking out of their arse thus far is you.

This professional training is only in vogue a few years. The likes of Benny would only have seen maybe 5-6 years of it and he's in a better position then any of us to gauge what constitutes too much. As he played at this level.

Inter county commitments has been a 6 day a week event since the late 90s however the key factor is the load factor which is the volume and intensity of training you are doing.

That now is at breaking point. Because it is several higher in terms of intensity these days. You will see more inter county retirements in the next ten years of lads ranging from 25-28 then ever before. The evidence isn't there because the current group are the Test subjects.

[Keyser soze]

There appears to be qute a lot of people on here talking a seriuous load of horse. On every [of the numerous] threads there has been on here about burnout I have asked for any evidence to show that players are leaving rthe game earlier than they did in the past. No one has as yet been ebale to furnish me with this evidence. I suspect that this is because it doesn't exist. Benny Coulter retiring at age 34??? after a 16 or 17 year career at senior county level is not evidence of 'burnout', I would argue that its quite the reverse.

Looking at the teams in this years AI SFC final as an example it doesnt strike me they were composed of a much younger age group than any previous group of players, and some of teir better performers have huge numbers in terms of championship appearences.

The only one talking out of their arse thus far is you.

This professional training is only in vogue a few years. The likes of Benny would only have seen maybe 5-6 years of it and he's in a better position then any of us to gauge what constitutes too much. As he played at this level.

Inter county commitments has been a 6 day a week event since the late 90s however the key factor is the load factor which is the volume and intensity of training you are doing.

That now is at breaking point. Because it is several higher in terms of intensity these days. You will see more inter county retirements in the next ten years of lads ranging from 25-28 then ever before. The evidence isn't there because the current group are the Test subjects.

Well there's no point in arguing with you then, as not only are you a S&C guru, but you can also tell the future!

[screenexile]

There appears to be qute a lot of people on here talking a seriuous load of horse. On every [of the numerous] threads there has been on here about burnout I have asked for any evidence to show that players are leaving rthe game earlier than they did in the past. No one has as yet been ebale to furnish me with this evidence. I suspect that this is because it doesn't exist. Benny Coulter retiring at age 34??? after a 16 or 17 year career at senior county level is not evidence of 'burnout', I would argue that its quite the reverse.

Looking at the teams in this years AI SFC final as an example it doesnt strike me they were composed of a much younger age group than any previous group of players, and some of teir better performers have huge numbers in terms of championship appearences.

The only one talking out of their arse thus far is you.

This professional training is only in vogue a few years. The likes of Benny would only have seen maybe 5-6 years of it and he's in a better position then any of us to gauge what constitutes too much. As he played at this level.

Inter county commitments has been a 6 day a week event since the late 90s however the key factor is the load factor which is the volume and intensity of training you are doing.

That now is at breaking point. Because it is several higher in terms of intensity these days. You will see more inter county retirements in the next ten years of lads ranging from 25-28 then ever before. The evidence isn't there because the current group are the Test subjects.

Well there's no point in arguing with you then, as not only are you a S&C guru, but you can also tell the future!

Would the fact that so many Down lads have opted not to join the panel this year not be a case of burnout?? Marty Clarke has been working & living as a professional athlete for the last 5 odd years and even he won't commit to it. . . it's gone too far!!

[Brick Tamlin]

Maybe so, but he just got married and has a wean on the way by all accounts.
Just getting married alone is enough to ruin a good man never mind to contend with a sprog shortly after.

[INDIANA]

There appears to be qute a lot of people on here talking a seriuous load of horse. On every [of the numerous] threads there has been on here about burnout I have asked for any evidence to show that players are leaving rthe game earlier than they did in the past. No one has as yet been ebale to furnish me with this evidence. I suspect that this is because it doesn't exist. Benny Coulter retiring at age 34??? after a 16 or 17 year career at senior county level is not evidence of 'burnout', I would argue that its quite the reverse.

Looking at the teams in this years AI SFC final as an example it doesnt strike me they were composed of a much younger age group than any previous group of players, and some of teir better performers have huge numbers in terms of championship appearences.

The only one talking out of their arse thus far is you.

This professional training is only in vogue a few years. The likes of Benny would only have seen maybe 5-6 years of it and he's in a better position then any of us to gauge what constitutes too much. As he played at this level.

Inter county commitments has been a 6 day a week event since the late 90s however the key factor is the load factor which is the volume and intensity of training you are doing.

That now is at breaking point. Because it is several higher in terms of intensity these days. You will see more inter county retirements in the next ten years of lads ranging from 25-28 then ever before. The evidence isn't there because the current group are the Test subjects.

Well there's no point in arguing with you then, as not only are you a S&C guru, but you can also tell the future!

I'm not an S&C guru or anything remotely like it.

Secondly it's not my fault you made a silly point above. You're like the head honchos in the GAA - see no evil hear no evil.

I'm not predicting anything when it's already happening. The human body isn't designed to train 7 times a week at current intensity levels and hold down a full time job.

You don't need to be a guru to know that. But maybe you're Geezer in disguise