Cookstown Incident

Started by oakleaflad, March 18, 2019, 12:43:55 AM

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bennydorano

100% agree  that it is a failure of a risk control system that has caused this, the other factors are contributory but very much secondary.

WT4E

Quote from: BennyCake on March 20, 2019, 02:00:04 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2019, 11:09:20 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general.  The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it.  400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood.  We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting.  This was an 18+ disco.  If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park?  Why did parents let them out?  Did parents know they were drinking?  Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age?  The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'.,  This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.

We really do have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol and you're right that it's passed down from generation to generation where underage drinking is seemed as a rite of passage and "sure we all did it" makes it ok.
Most come through this phase ok but some don't and aren't mature enough to handle alcohol and binge drinking/Alcoholism develops from these formative years and replace proper social skills like holding conversations with people without being hammered.

No one wants to shout stop though.

Yup I agree. The government certainly won't be shouting stop. Their way of handling it is put the price up.

If you want to get real about the alcohol consumption in this country, there's only one thing for it, and that's getting rid of all off licenses. If people want to drink, there's the pub. And if you're not 18, then you won't be drinking. There's your underage drinking stopped in a second.

We all know this won't happen though. But if you're serious about dealing with drink, it's the only W method.


And there you go - 3 teenagers crushed to death and the thread has now turned into a solve irelands alcohol problem

Mission accomplished for the idiots who want to divert away from the fact that three children died!!!!!

Milltown Row2

Forgetting about the horrible tragedy in Cookstown for a moment

People/parents/kids and owners of such venues all have a responsibility to look after people

Letting your child out knowing you've bought them booze, arranged photo ID and knowing fine well they were going to an over age disco is wrong legally never mind morally. I've done it and was allowed to do it when I was that age, now, thankfully me and my friends came back from such nights out with nothing more than a sore head, and in relation to my two daughters that was fine also, the eldest daughter is now over the age but I've put it to my youngest that such things won't be happening again

Owning a venue that's taking a booking for a school disco has to stopped (if this was the case) underage kids will go regardless and as an owner of such venue you are leaving yourself wide open.

Venues should all have queueing system, and if that's in the health and safety risk assessment then it has to be adhered to.

Buses allowing drink to be taken on their bus is also an issue, a lot harder to work out but it happens

Kids drinking on the streets outside a venue can be fixed, if the police had have been informed of that behaviour
Drink culture? Monkey sees monkey does, we are all responsible

There are a host of reasons that can lead to a disaster, very rarely will it be one single point. But very often it will be the owner who'll take the fall as the law will go after them as public opinion can be a factor.

I hope that from this there will a huge change in how everyone goes about their thinking as there a chain of events which has resulted in three young talented lives. Hopefully no one should have to go through something like that again.

And the point scoring shite on this page is disgusting
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

BennyCake

Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 02:02:59 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on March 20, 2019, 02:00:04 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2019, 11:09:20 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general.  The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it.  400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood.  We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting.  This was an 18+ disco.  If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park?  Why did parents let them out?  Did parents know they were drinking?  Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age?  The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'.,  This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.

We really do have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol and you're right that it's passed down from generation to generation where underage drinking is seemed as a rite of passage and "sure we all did it" makes it ok.
Most come through this phase ok but some don't and aren't mature enough to handle alcohol and binge drinking/Alcoholism develops from these formative years and replace proper social skills like holding conversations with people without being hammered.

No one wants to shout stop though.

Yup I agree. The government certainly won't be shouting stop. Their way of handling it is put the price up.

If you want to get real about the alcohol consumption in this country, there's only one thing for it, and that's getting rid of all off licenses. If people want to drink, there's the pub. And if you're not 18, then you won't be drinking. There's your underage drinking stopped in a second.

We all know this won't happen though. But if you're serious about dealing with drink, it's the only W method.


And there you go - 3 teenagers crushed to death and the thread has now turned into a solve irelands alcohol problem

Mission accomplished for the idiots who want to divert away from the fact that three children died!!!!!

No I didn't say underage or binge drinking was the cause of these kids deaths, nor was I inferring anything like that.. I was replying to original post on the country's general attitude towards alcohol.

sid waddell

Quote from: BennyCake on March 20, 2019, 02:00:04 PM

If you want to get real about the alcohol consumption in this country, there's only one thing for it, and that's getting rid of all off licenses.
This post is certainly proof that there are no rules stopping the typing out of stupid opinions.

WT4E

I understand you didnt Bennycake was not making a direct point to you..... making a point to a number of posters who have tried to divert it this way all day.

Taylor

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 20, 2019, 02:03:59 PM
Forgetting about the horrible tragedy in Cookstown for a moment

People/parents/kids and owners of such venues all have a responsibility to look after people

Letting your child out knowing you've bought them booze, arranged photo ID and knowing fine well they were going to an over age disco is wrong legally never mind morally. I've done it and was allowed to do it when I was that age, now, thankfully me and my friends came back from such nights out with nothing more than a sore head, and in relation to my two daughters that was fine also, the eldest daughter is now over the age but I've put it to my youngest that such things won't be happening again

Owning a venue that's taking a booking for a school disco has to stopped (if this was the case) underage kids will go regardless and as an owner of such venue you are leaving yourself wide open.

Venues should all have queueing system, and if that's in the health and safety risk assessment then it has to be adhered to.

Buses allowing drink to be taken on their bus is also an issue, a lot harder to work out but it happens

Kids drinking on the streets outside a venue can be fixed, if the police had have been informed of that behaviour
Drink culture? Monkey sees monkey does, we are all responsible

There are a host of reasons that can lead to a disaster, very rarely will it be one single point. But very often it will be the owner who'll take the fall as the law will go after them as public opinion can be a factor.

I hope that from this there will a huge change in how everyone goes about their thinking as there a chain of events which has resulted in three young talented lives. Hopefully no one should have to go through something like that again.

And the point scoring shite on this page is disgusting

Serious question - does the bit in bold actually happen?

In my time we would have sourced the booze from someone that looked over 18 or a lax pub/off license not parents and would never have dreamed of asking the parents to arrange photo ID

BennyCake

Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 02:10:33 PM
I understand you didnt Bennycake was not making a direct point to you..... making a point to a number of posters who have tried to divert it this way all day.

Fair enough so

sid waddell

Fake IDs are the problem now, or something?

My word, what a lesson in how to miss the elephant in the room.

BennyCake

Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2019, 02:10:26 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on March 20, 2019, 02:00:04 PM

If you want to get real about the alcohol consumption in this country, there's only one thing for it, and that's getting rid of all off licenses.
This post is certainly proof that there are no rules stopping the typing out of stupid opinions.

What's stupid about it? Drink will still be available to those old enough to drink. Those who are not old enough to drink won't be drinking.

BennyHarp

Will those posters who are suggesting that people are "blaming the kids" or trying to "divert from the fact that children died" please wind their necks. This is a very emotive subject and I dare say that nobody is purposefully attempting to lay the blame for this tragedy at the door of the kids themselves. To suggest that people are is exceptionally unhelpful and in my view deliberately misinterpreting what people are saying for the purpose of hyperbole. Perhaps the discussion about the ills of alcohol and drugs in Ireland is for another thread.
That was never a square ball!!

awideisneverasgood

Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 01:59:48 PM
Quote from: awideisneverasgood on March 20, 2019, 12:41:43 PM
https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2015/4429

Each station is required to have a Congestion Control and Emergency Plan (CCEP) in place to ensure that any congestion on platforms, concourses and other areas in a station does not impact on the safety of customers.

I think its very naive to think that safety on the London underground is solely dependent on passenger behavior.

Did you see the photo I posted? https://ibb.co/r4PWF5q

I did see your photo.

Did you see the link I posted which includes a direct response from the mayor of London on how they manage crowds safely on the underground using a combination of planning and technology?  Point being that its not just left up to the passengers "behaving" themselves as you suggested earlier.

trailer

The amount of shit on this thread is unreal. 3 innocent children have lost their lives and some posters want to talk about fake IDs, blaming parents and children and closing off licences. Absolutely staggering.


five points

Quote from: awideisneverasgood on March 20, 2019, 02:21:30 PM
Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 01:59:48 PM
Quote from: awideisneverasgood on March 20, 2019, 12:41:43 PM
https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2015/4429

Each station is required to have a Congestion Control and Emergency Plan (CCEP) in place to ensure that any congestion on platforms, concourses and other areas in a station does not impact on the safety of customers.

I think its very naive to think that safety on the London underground is solely dependent on passenger behavior.

Did you see the photo I posted? https://ibb.co/r4PWF5q

I did see your photo.

Did you see the link I posted which includes a direct response from the mayor of London on how they manage crowds safely on the underground using a combination of planning and technology?  Point being that its not just left up to the passengers "behaving" themselves as you suggested earlier.

I did and it contradicted nothing that I said. Of course the Tube has sophisticated crowd control measures - only a fool would argue otherwise - but my original point was that it has huge crowds queueing at ticket barriers and on train platforms at rush hour, and that safety at those times depends to a large extent on individual behaviour, which is closely policed.

trailer

Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 02:26:53 PM
Quote from: awideisneverasgood on March 20, 2019, 02:21:30 PM
Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 01:59:48 PM
Quote from: awideisneverasgood on March 20, 2019, 12:41:43 PM
https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2015/4429

Each station is required to have a Congestion Control and Emergency Plan (CCEP) in place to ensure that any congestion on platforms, concourses and other areas in a station does not impact on the safety of customers.

I think its very naive to think that safety on the London underground is solely dependent on passenger behavior.

Did you see the photo I posted? https://ibb.co/r4PWF5q

I did see your photo.

Did you see the link I posted which includes a direct response from the mayor of London on how they manage crowds safely on the underground using a combination of planning and technology?  Point being that its not just left up to the passengers "behaving" themselves as you suggested earlier.

I did and it contradicted nothing that I said. Of course the Tube has sophisticated crowd control measures - only a fool would argue otherwise - but my original point was that it has huge crowds queueing at ticket barriers and on train platforms at rush hour, and that safety at those times depends to a large extent on individual behaviour, which is closely policed.

No that is not what you said.
You said "It's only safe because people have manners." ONLY! ONLY!

Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 02:26:53 PM
Quote from: awideisneverasgood on March 20, 2019, 02:21:30 PM
Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 01:59:48 PM
Quote from: awideisneverasgood on March 20, 2019, 12:41:43 PM
https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2015/4429

Each station is required to have a Congestion Control and Emergency Plan (CCEP) in place to ensure that any congestion on platforms, concourses and other areas in a station does not impact on the safety of customers.

I think its very naive to think that safety on the London underground is solely dependent on passenger behavior.

Did you see the photo I posted? https://ibb.co/r4PWF5q

I did see your photo.

Did you see the link I posted which includes a direct response from the mayor of London on how they manage crowds safely on the underground using a combination of planning and technology?  Point being that its not just left up to the passengers "behaving" themselves as you suggested earlier.

I did and it contradicted nothing that I said. Of course the Tube has sophisticated crowd control measures - only a fool would argue otherwise - but my original point was that it has huge crowds queueing at ticket barriers and on train platforms at rush hour, and that safety at those times depends to a large extent on individual behaviour, which is closely policed.

Indeed