Clerical abuse!

Started by D4S, May 20, 2009, 05:09:14 PM

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We all know this disgusting scandal is as a result of The Church and The State, but who do you hold mostly accountable, and should therefore pay out the most in compensation to victims?

The State
The Church
Split 50/50

mylestheslasher

Quote from: Pangurban on May 29, 2009, 12:02:23 AM
Have to agree with Donagh, the people elected politicians to uphold and defend the state and its citizens. That those politicians clearly failed, has now been firmly established. Though it has to be said that the few brave politicians who stood up to the Bishops eg. Peader o Donnell and Noel Browne, received little support from the public at large and in many cases were vilified. There are no clean hands here, and lots of blame to go around. Much has been made of the cultural norms of the times, it would therefore be interesting to know did a similar state of affairs exist in any other catholic country, or was it just part of an Irish psyche

My point is that the church apply huge pschological pressure on our people and on our politicians in order to have the country run they way they wanted. You can ignore this by blaming the state for allowing it to happen but people were concerned with getting  to heaven back then and absolutlety feared the church.

Jim_Murphy_74

#331
Quote from: Donagh on May 28, 2009, 09:09:57 PM
Quote from: Pangurban on May 28, 2009, 08:34:53 PM
Its a reasonable assumption Donagh, and is open to that interpretation, intended or not.

I was curious about the John XXIII reference so I Wikied there to see what it is all about and this is what I found:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimen_sollicitationis

That document relates to solicitations by a priest during Confession. I think Jim is being a little disingenuous throwing that one into the mix. My Latin isn't the best so I can't comment directly on the source but here is a comment from Wiki:

The document dealt exclusively with the procedure to be followed in connection with a denunciation to the ecclesiastical authority of a priest guilty of solicitation in Confession or of similar acts. It imposed secrecy about the conduct of the ecclesiastical trial, not allowing, for instance, statements made during the trial by witnesses or by the accused to be published. But it did not in any way impose silence on those who were victims of the priest's conduct or who had learned of it in ways unconnected with the ecclesiastical trial.

"These matters are confidential only to the procedures within the Church, but do not preclude in any way for these matters to be brought to civil authorities for proper legal adjudication. The Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People of June, 2002, approved by the Vatican, requires that credible allegations of sexual abuse of children be reported to legal authorities."
-- Archbishop Joseph Fiorenza

Donagh,

That is the "headline" part of the document.  The canon lawyer that the Ferns inquiry used pointed out that it is common practice to include other items within.  Child abuse is covered and it is categorically stated it should be kept in-house.  Also this was part of the case Colm O'Gorman took against the church, a case he won.   We also had the case of an arch-bishop saying he didn't "lie" to the inquiry by withholding information because he was just following Canon Law.

Also with regard to "I think Jim is being a little disingenuous throwing that one into the mix".  I didn't put it in the mix.  I quoted the Ferns Report which put it in the mix.  So the author of the Ferns Report might be disingenuous................................

You can't deny that this stuff was kept secret and it has been shown this wasn't by accident.

orangeman

All last week and all this week I've been listening to older people in their 70s and 80s and the very interesting thing is that the Ryan report seems to have lanced a boil. All of a sudden this older generation are starting to talk about what happened back then and whilst it's by no means a revolution, I feel that there is a sense that they are at long last able to talk about it. Talking to a very old maan this morning, he was telling the stroy of a Christian Brother who had a cane and wherever the cane landed, too bad. He was able to recount stories and name individuals abused by these men. I felt that there was a sense of relief that he was now able to share these stories as he said that all along people wouldn't have believed them.

Lar Naparka

QuoteThat is the "headline" part of the document.  The canon lawyer that the Ferns inquiry used pointed out that it is common practice to include other items within.  Child abuse is covered and it is categorically stated it should be kept in-house.  Also this was part of the case Colm O'Gorman took against the church, a case he won.   We also had the case of an arch-bishop saying he didn't "lie" to the inquiry by withholding information because he was just following Canon Law.

Also with regard to "I think Jim is being a little disingenuous throwing that one into the mix".  I didn't put it in the mix.  I quoted the Ferns Report which put it in the mix.  So the author of the Ferns Report might be disingenuous................................

You can't deny that this stuff was kept secret and it has been shown this wasn't by accident.

You are spot on there, Jim.
I believe the bishop you are referring to is Desmond Connell, the former archbishop of Dublin. This is the man who quoted Caon Law when he refused to let the police authorities examine the files the church had on child abuse cases in the diocese.
I mentioned earlier that to his credit, Michael McDowell responded by saying Canon Law had no more legal standing that the rules of a golf club had on its members.
Connell was to go on to have a very public and bitter dust up with his incoming successor, the present archbishop, Diarmuid Martin.
This happened about 5 years ago. Does anyone here remember it?
Connell insisted on holding onto the files in his possession but Dr. Martin said he would co-operate fully with requests for disclosure.
We cannot forget the case of John Magee, the bishop of Cloyne either. Last year Magee, was accused by an internal church inquiry of taking minimal action over accusations against two priests. The inquiry was to find his child protection guidelines were both inadequate and downright dangerous.

Fr. Tom Doyle is a frequent contributor to RTE's Morning Ireland radio show and writes in a number of Catholic papers and magazines. Heis a canon lawyer and was a consultant to the Dublin archdiocese's commission on clerical abuse.

What he had to say on the subject of 'Crimen Sollicitationis' can be read here.
http://ncronline.org/node/4530

His reaction to the recent commission's report can be read here.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/08/child-abuse-catholicism-john-magee

For those in a hurry, this is his summing up of the commission's report:


The sadistic world of these institutions is not that of some crazed secular dictatorship. It is not the world of an uncivilized tribal culture that ravaged the weak in ages long past. This report describes a world created and sustained by the Roman Catholic Church. The horrors inflicted on these helpless, trapped children -- rapes, beatings, molestation, starvation, isolation -- all were inflicted by men and women who had vowed themselves to the service of people in the name of Christ's love.
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

orangeman

Quote from: Lar Naparka on May 29, 2009, 01:20:03 PM
QuoteThat is the "headline" part of the document.  The canon lawyer that the Ferns inquiry used pointed out that it is common practice to include other items within.  Child abuse is covered and it is categorically stated it should be kept in-house.  Also this was part of the case Colm O'Gorman took against the church, a case he won.   We also had the case of an arch-bishop saying he didn't "lie" to the inquiry by withholding information because he was just following Canon Law.

Also with regard to "I think Jim is being a little disingenuous throwing that one into the mix".  I didn't put it in the mix.  I quoted the Ferns Report which put it in the mix.  So the author of the Ferns Report might be disingenuous................................

You can't deny that this stuff was kept secret and it has been shown this wasn't by accident.

You are spot on there, Jim.
I believe the bishop you are referring to is Desmond Connell, the former archbishop of Dublin. This is the man who quoted Caon Law when he refused to let the police authorities examine the files the church had on child abuse cases in the diocese.
I mentioned earlier that to his credit, Michael McDowell responded by saying Canon Law had no more legal standing that the rules of a golf club had on its members.
Connell was to go on to have a very public and bitter dust up with his incoming successor, the present archbishop, Diarmuid Martin.
This happened about 5 years ago. Does anyone here remember it?
Connell insisted on holding onto the files in his possession but Dr. Martin said he would co-operate fully with requests for disclosure.
We cannot forget the case of John Magee, the bishop of Cloyne either. Last year Magee, was accused by an internal church inquiry of taking minimal action over accusations against two priests. The inquiry was to find his child protection guidelines were both inadequate and downright dangerous.
Fr. Tom Doyle is a frequent contributor to RTE's Morning Ireland radio show and writes in a number of Catholic papers and magazines. Heis a canon lawyer and was a consultant to the Dublin archdiocese's commission on clerical abuse.

What he had to say on the subject of 'Crimen Sollicitationis' can be read here.
http://ncronline.org/node/4530

His reaction to the recent commission's report can be read here.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/08/child-abuse-catholicism-john-magee

For those in a hurry, this is his summing up of the commission's report:


The sadistic world of these institutions is not that of some crazed secular dictatorship. It is not the world of an uncivilized tribal culture that ravaged the weak in ages long past. This report describes a world created and sustained by the Roman Catholic Church. The horrors inflicted on these helpless, trapped children -- rapes, beatings, molestation, starvation, isolation -- all were inflicted by men and women who had vowed themselves to the service of people in the name of Christ's love.



He still got the backing of Cardinal Brady, the leader of the Catholic church in Ireland.

The Iceman

Quote from: Donagh on May 28, 2009, 11:30:32 PM
Now, I guess I'm going to have to put a disclaimer in here. I am in no way defending the actions of the people involved in the abuse nor am I defending the privileged position the Church had in Irish society. I believe the state that was established in the south and DeValeras 'Republic' to be a betrayal of everything that was fought for during the War of Independence but it was the politicians of FF and FG that betrayed the republican ideal and the Irish people by putting the Church in that privileged position. The Church should not and should never have any say in the affairs of State. That is not to say that it doesn't have a role in society looking after it's own.  

Great post!
I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight

mylestheslasher

Aye, unlike your last one where you told a blatant untruth about the government (ie taxpayer) havnig committed zero to the victim of abuse.

Franko

Ok Donagh, you are adamant that the Church has no legal obligation to pay restitution to the victims of this abuse.  (I disagree by the way).

However, would you not agree that the moral obligation to provide some sort of recompense to victims here is somewhat greater and the ratio of moral wrongdoing here is much greater than 90:10?

Main Street

Quote from: orangeman on May 29, 2009, 10:04:54 AM
All last week and all this week I've been listening to older people in their 70s and 80s and the very interesting thing is that the Ryan report seems to have lanced a boil. All of a sudden this older generation are starting to talk about what happened back then and whilst it's by no means a revolution, I feel that there is a sense that they are at long last able to talk about it. Talking to a very old maan this morning, he was telling the stroy of a Christian Brother who had a cane and wherever the cane landed, too bad. He was able to recount stories and name individuals abused by these men. I felt that there was a sense of relief that he was now able to share these stories as he said that all along people wouldn't have believed them.
As harrowing as this report is, it does not compare to the impact of a live witness.
Also if you listen to what the abused say, you will not hear any mention of financial compensation.
I am puzzled by the focus in this thread about who is responsible for financial compensation.
One of the big crimes has been the exchange of prosecution for the promise of compensation.
And imo, the squabble about who pays what, is disrespectful to the abused, ignores what the abused are saying.
So far the priorites have been dictated by lawyers hired by the State to prevent prosecution and it has been swallowed hook line and sinker by the population.
There is no legal barrier towards prosecuting those accused. The State were also complicit, no wonder the government don't want that can of worms opened.
If the abusers can not be prosecuted then the the institution itself should be held accountable. The abusers and the particular institution they represented can not be separated from any guilt. Part of the State's responsibility is to ensure that the process is allowed to mature and listen seriously to the abused.


The Iceman

Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 29, 2009, 02:53:16 PM
Aye, unlike your last one where you told a blatant untruth about the government (ie taxpayer) havnig committed zero to the victim of abuse.
I didn't blatantly tell lies - I made an uninformed comment Myles - hang me from the nearest tree sure.
Man but you are a serious twister.
I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight

orangeman

There may be trouble ahead !!!!!!!!

Orders disagree on involving wider Church
Saturday, 30 May 2009 10:18
The 18 Catholic religious congregations criticised by the Child Abuse Commission have said they do not see a role for the broader Irish Church in examining their failures in their duty of care to children.

After meeting yesterday in Dublin, the 18 orders cited by the Commission promised to continue examining its finding that they had failed to listen to children abused in their institutions.

Belfast-based Bishop Noel Treanor said last Sunday that this would require an inter-disciplinary discussion with Catholics and others, and would involve the abused themselves.

AdvertisementSr Elizabeth Maxwell, a spokeswoman for the 18 orders, has told RTÉ News that she did not see how other church bodies here could become involved because the congregations concerned were autonomous.

Meanwhile, the HSE's national counselling service for survivors of abuse has seen its waiting lists more than double over the past seven days.

The service has been extended during what the HSE calls 'this critical time'.

Gaoth Dobhair Abu

Quote from: orangeman on May 30, 2009, 12:50:47 PM
There may be trouble ahead !!!!!!!!

Meanwhile, the HSE's national counselling service for survivors of abuse has seen its waiting lists more than double over the past seven days.



This is the problem, how many spongers will use this report as an excuse for a nest egg?
I have not heard anyone here tell tales of "good stories" from the religious orders, but I have heard and know numerous (sp) tales from people that say different, they were educated and looked after by religious instituitions and were better for it.

Yeah lets demonise the Catholic Church (suits alot of agendas), the people on here procrastinating about all things Catholic, do you really give a shite or is it just about getting a dig in?


I wonder if the posters on this thread and others, who slag of the church, are doing it for the victims or just for themselves??????
Tbc....

Lar Naparka

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on May 31, 2009, 02:37:57 AM
Quote from: orangeman on May 30, 2009, 12:50:47 PM
There may be trouble ahead !!!!!!!!

Meanwhile, the HSE's national counselling service for survivors of abuse has seen its waiting lists more than double over the past seven days.



This is the problem, how many spongers will use this report as an excuse for a nest egg?
I have not heard anyone here tell tales of "good stories" from the religious orders, but I have heard and know numerous (sp) tales from people that say different, they were educated and looked after by religious instituitions and were better for it.

Yeah lets demonise the Catholic Church (suits alot of agendas), the people on here procrastinating about all things Catholic, do you really give a shite or is it just about getting a dig in?


I wonder if the posters on this thread and others, who slag of the church, are doing it for the victims or just for themselves??????
I think you are being extremely harsh here, GDA.
Orangeman, back in post # 377 had some very apt observations to pass on. I'm repeating one of them here:
"I feel that there is a sense that they are at long last able to talk about it."
The sense of injustice and hurt the victims must have endured over the decades must have been too great to comprehend. I can well understand the sense of relief they now feel since their sufferings have been acknowledged.
I'd say many are now coming forward because they are now being believed.
Are there spongers getting ready to cash in on other's misfortunes?
Quite possibly there are. It is up to the regulatory bodies to sort out the wheat from the chaff, isn't it?
To prove their eligibility for compensation, applicants will have their cases scrutinised; I don't see a canteen line scenario, with lines of octogenarians lining up in a queue with their hands outstretched for their share of the loot..
Even if a trickle of bogus claims were to get through, that shouldn't detract for the right of genuine claimants to receive what they are deemed to be entitled to.
I haven't heard of one single victim asking for money. All without exception asked for justice and acknowledgement of the wrongs done to them.
Personally, I have no problem whatsoever in denouncing the role of Rome in the whole sordid affair. How could I?
Rome stinks of complicity and tacit acceptance of what went on, the Curia has had files on every allegation made in its keeping. It has kept them secret and tried to hinder external investigation every step of the way. That has been Rome's policy not because it helps the cause of justice but has been followed to preserve the Church's assets.
I do know many clerics; decent, unassuming men who went about their ministries without looking for recognition or reward. They were doing what they accepted was their duty, plain and simple. There is no way in which their good works can be set off against the depredations of their colleagues.
The fact that many youngsters benefited from the education and care they received in religious institutions is not a cause for comment, is it?
They got what the same institutions undertook to provide them with.
I certainly do give a shite, lots of them.
I sincerely wish I did not have any grounds for criticising the actions and motives of the Church. But I have lots of them.
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

pintsofguinness

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on May 31, 2009, 02:37:57 AM
Quote from: orangeman on May 30, 2009, 12:50:47 PM
There may be trouble ahead !!!!!!!!

Meanwhile, the HSE's national counselling service for survivors of abuse has seen its waiting lists more than double over the past seven days.



This is the problem, how many spongers will use this report as an excuse for a nest egg?
I have not heard anyone here tell tales of "good stories" from the religious orders, but I have heard and know numerous (sp) tales from people that say different, they were educated and looked after by religious instituitions and were better for it.

Yeah lets demonise the Catholic Church
(suits alot of agendas), the people on here procrastinating about all things Catholic, do you really give a shite or is it just about getting a dig in?


I wonder if the posters on this thread and others, who slag of the church, are doing it for the victims or just for themselves??????

Lets, because they deserve it.

As for "good stories" from religious orders, what relevance has that? Lets hear more good stories so we can forget about the bad ones?
Which one of you bitches wants to dance?

mylestheslasher

#344
Pat Rabbitte has called for CORI to be kicked out of social partnership. I agree with him 100%. I also hear through some poliical commentators that more of the same is on the way when the report on the Dublin diocese is release in the next few months.
GDA - I think your attitude is a disgrace on this. If we were talking about abuse by protestant clergy or some other organisation you wouldn't be talking about their other "good work". Your attempts to suggest that there are "spongers" ready to make claims is also a disgrace. Have you any evidence of this. On the contrary, the poor victims were treated like filth by the churches lawyers when they first went to complain. Treated like criminals by people who now tell us how sorry they are and how they'll do what they can. Your 2nd allegation that we should somehow balance the huge evil endemic systematic abuse of CHILDREN by the "good work" of the church and of course those who don't just hate the church and aren't worth listening to. I put it to you that you are brain washed by the church and are unable to take a step back and look at what has gone on. No sensible person could take the view you have with the evidence that is there. Instead you try and make the evidence fit with what you have always believed. Its like I said before, some people are having a real hard time trying to fathom what this report says. The report is there, out in the open and there is no spinning or diluting what it said happened to little boys and girls.

Did any of ye see the late late on Friday night. Gabriel Byrne was on and made a statement to try and break through the reams of words that are being written on this issue he said "what we are talking about here is the penetration of young boys & girls by priests using spittle and vasaline". That is the shocking brutal truth.

Also, have a read of today (Sundays) Daily mail. It lists estimates of the orders wealth. A conservative estimate puts it at 15 billion euro.