Clerical abuse!

[orangeman]

And do you acknowledge that they have a financial liability here?  and if so is that adequately covered by their contribution to the redress fund?

Jim I think I've already said previously that I think they have a liability and the E100 million is more than adequate. Considering everything the Church does and continues to do for the good of Irish society, I'd probably suggest that a more appropriate figure would be a nominal E1, with the rest being picked up by those most liable, the State. There are many faults within the Irish Church, particularly with the Bishops, but IMO opinion the vast majority of Priests do an invaluable job and they should not be penalised for the sins of their predecessors. 

Now you're taking the piss and having a laugh.  You're on the wind here.

[mylestheslasher]

And do you acknowledge that they have a financial liability here?  and if so is that adequately covered by their contribution to the redress fund?

Jim I think I've already said previously that I think they have a liability and the E100 million is more than adequate. Considering everything the Church does and continues to do for the good of Irish society, I'd probably suggest that a more appropriate figure would be a nominal E1, with the rest being picked up by those most liable, the State. There are many faults within the Irish Church, particularly with the Bishops, but IMO opinion the vast majority of Priests do an invaluable job and they should not be penalised for the sins of their predecessors. 

If you came canvasing for SF to my door and came out with that shite SF would never get a vote from me again. Cop yourself on a bit Donagh. The absolute minimum the church should pay is half (500 million). I think they are liable for 3/4 at least. And if you read the report you'll see that the commission lays the majority of the blame at the door of the church. Since they are the ones that have spend 10 hard years compiliing it I take their word over anyone elses on it.

Agree with Declan in that the christian brothers are so disgraced by this that they should disband and transfer all assets to the state. There weasel worded apology means nothing now.

[Donagh]

If you came canvasing for SF to my door and came out with that shite SF would never get a vote from me again. Cop yourself on a bit Donagh. The absolute minimum the church should pay is half (500 million). I think they are liable for 3/4 at least. And if you read the report you'll see that the commission lays the majority of the blame at the door of the church. Since they are the ones that have spend 10 hard years compiliing it I take their word over anyone elses on it.

Agree with Declan in that the christian brothers are so disgraced by this that they should disband and transfer all assets to the state. There weasel worded apology means nothing now.

Myles let's try to stick to the topic. You havn't addressed any of my points about liability.
Also, if you agree with Declan, perhaps you would like to address the questions I put regarding Church assets?

[mylestheslasher]

Every bishop in this country is living in a mansion, on their own. Transfer them to the state and sell them off to the highest bidder. Church can find a more modest home for the bishop.

In my opinion the schools, treatment centers etc in any country should be run by the government. All these buildings should be transferred to the government. A study would then need to take place on how these can be efficiently managed and which if any can be sold of. If the church, out of christain charity, still wish to help out in these facilities then fine. But the government should Vet every member of staff and appoint the manager of the school.

I don't have all the figures of the value of church assets, but I'd imagine they are worth quite a bit. I think there is also a case for the government to take a case against the vatican in europe if the catholic church in Ireland can't cough up the money.

In any case, it is the church that needs to figure out how to pay not me.

[Main Street]

Class is very relevant here, there wasn't much sign of this stuff in Blackrock College and no son of a judge or doctor was interfered with. These orders ran regular schools that contributed greatly to Irish education. In the past there was a "spare the rod and spoil the child" mentality and all schools had an element of violence about them. But if you attended a regular school and had a pretty positive experience it was natural to think that other schools run by the same order were similar, i.e. you might get the strap from time to time but you'd get a good education. Normal people could hardly imagine some of the sexual stuff. It is clear that there was two tier system in place, schools with orphans and industrial schools were run on entirely different principles. The perverts and paedophiles made sure to end up in these places where the culture allowed them do what they liked and where parents could not easily control them. But the administrators of these orders knew what was going on and allowed it continue to the eternal shame of the Catholic church.

Those institutions are a separate case, imo. Whatever passed for scrutiny outside those institution was suspended inside.
In general, abuse of children was widespread enough outside of those institutions to go across what you refer to as class boundaries. What determines the process of selection of a victim by an abuser is an intricate matter.
We have become well aware of serious abuse incidents right across the social spectrum inflicted by abusers from a wide range of "trusted" professions.

[Donagh]

Every bishop in this country is living in a mansion, on their own. Transfer them to the state and sell them off to the highest bidder. Church can find a more modest home for the bishop.

In my opinion the schools, treatment centers etc in any country should be run by the government. All these buildings should be transferred to the government. A study would then need to take place on how these can be efficiently managed and which if any can be sold of. If the church, out of christain charity, still wish to help out in these facilities then fine. But the government should Vet every member of staff and appoint the manager of the school.

I don't have all the figures of the value of church assets, but I'd imagine they are worth quite a bit. I think there is also a case for the government to take a case against the vatican in europe if the catholic church in Ireland can't cough up the money.

In any case, it is the church that needs to figure out how to pay not me.

But the abusers were caring for these children on behalf of the State. Why do you want to punish the modern Church despite all of the good they are doing and not the State?

[Declan]

Also, if you agree with Declan, perhaps you would like to address the questions I put regarding Church assets?

I would make a distinction between the Christian Brothers and the  "church" in this regard. Re the schools ,if the lands and buildings are still owned by the brothers then they should be taken off them and initially put into trust/state ownership. Re community centres/outreach facilities etc - how many are now actually run by the brothers? So an audit of assets facilities etc to be carried out and then a plan put in place to sell/reallocate etc to appropriate organisations/causes.

I genuinely believe that the brothers should be disbanded and if not voluntarily I think there is a case for making them a proscribed organisation based on the abuse they perpetrated on the weakest and vulnerable of society. I'm not sure of the current numbers but if they want to join another religious organisation or set up a new order etc let them do that but not as it is currently constituted.

From reading the reports and listening to people it's obvious to me that the victims feel that the guilty parties here i.e orders and the institutional church - haven't contributed enough either by way of apology or recompense and there is a valid argument to be made to revisit the agreement made by Woods with them.

Of course given our governments record in looking after the welfare of the people I have no great faith in our ability as a country to do any better in providing services for any of our citizens.

[The Iceman]

Every bishop in this country is living in a mansion, on their own. Transfer them to the state and sell them off to the highest bidder. Church can find a more modest home for the bishop.

How many Bishop's mansions have you been in Myles? You are all talk - back up your claims with facts lad or keep them to yourself.
The Arch Bishop's house in Armagh beside the Cathedral could be described as a mansion.  It also contains offices for 6 or more administrative staff as well as several other offices for various roles within the Diocese.  This house/office is in a key position next to the Church and needs to remain there.

The Church does own a lot of land - but how many Churches are you going to knock down and how many graves are you going to overturn to get what you want?

[Lazer]

And do you acknowledge that they have a financial liability here?  and if so is that adequately covered by their contribution to the redress fund?

Jim I think I've already said previously that I think they have a liability and the E100 million is more than adequate. Considering everything the Church does and continues to do for the good of Irish society, I'd probably suggest that a more appropriate figure would be a nominal E1, with the rest being picked up by those most liable, the State. There are many faults within the Irish Church, particularly with the Bishops, but IMO opinion the vast majority of Priests do an invaluable job and they should not be penalised for the sins of their predecessors. 

Now you're taking the piss and having a laugh.  You're on the wind here.

Throwing money to the victims is not the solution to this.
Which do you think the victims would prefer
1) Money
2) Justice

What should be done is for any individuals who either commited the acts, or covered them up should be taken to court and made to face justice

I do not see what can be gained from the modern church or the state taking responsibity - they should publically apologise for all the abuse caused by their pre-deceasers and fully commit themselves to providing whatever help they can with any legal proceedings.

[Declan]

Just to show how our attitudes have changed 

High-risk children given 'cheapest' care

By Jennifer Hough

Friday, May 22, 2009

HIGH-RISK children are being put on waiting lists or placed "in the cheapest option" of care by the HSE, a leading residential service provider has claimed.

Paula Kane, manager of Ashdale Care, a group of private care homes to which the HSE refers children, said she had kept quiet for too long and did not want to see mistakes of the past repeated due to what she called an "alleged lack of funding".

Ms Kane claimed that:

The HSE was "playing down" risk assessments so placements would not be required.

Some children were not being placed at all and were left in high risk and potentially dangerous situations.

High risk referrals are being put on waiting lists.

The social worker said the situation was at crisis point, and she hoped speaking out would help frontline HSE staff who were working with impossible caseloads.

"Things are really going backwards. It is clear that those in the HSE who are charged with making decisions about the welfare of children and adolescents are making decisions purely on financial grounds," she said.

Children as young as 12, Ms Kane said, were being advised they could no longer stay in placements because the HSE has no money, and placements sometimes ended overnight.

She said teenagers from age 16 were being moved from long term placements into bed and breakfasts.

"These young people have suffered significantly and are being left unsupported in these establishments – which are unregulated – with no trained professional staff." Although foster placements were over-crowded, foster carers were being offered more money to take children because it is a cheaper alternative to residential care, she claimed.

A spokesperson for the HSE said everything it does was "tightly focused on meeting the needs of children in care, and that in the current climate this needed to be done in a cost effective way".

"We are currently putting together a tender to procure residential placements in the private sector, if and when they are required."

Norah Givens, from Barnardos, said the charity has heard anecdotal evidence that decisions were being taken to remove children from expensive facilities, and is was extremely concerned about this.

"Some children are not suitable for foster care and receive very good residential care. It would be shocking to think that children were being moved around because of financial situation."

Read more: "| Irish Examiner" - http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/highrisk-children-given-cheapest-care-92381.html#ixzz0GEwQK6KC&A

[Jim_Murphy_74]

Jim
I think I've already said previously that I think they have a liability and the E100 million is more than adequate. Considering everything the Church does and continues to do for the good of Irish society, I'd probably suggest that a more appropriate figure would be a nominal E1, with the rest being picked up by those most liable, the State. There are many faults within the Irish Church, particularly with the Bishops, but IMO opinion the vast majority of Priests do an invaluable job and they should not be penalised for the sins of their predecessors. 

Donagh,

This is where I cannot agree:

1.  On the basic issue of the acts of abuse, I can see your argument as to ultimate responsibility lying with the state.  I don't agree with your analysis as I think the state have a right to recoup the compensation, particularly from those orders that received payment from the government for their services.

2.  The issue of protection of know offenders, the half-truths (and outright lies), the moving of suspects etc... is soley the responsiblity of the church and nobody else.  I expect a lot more than a nominal gesture, financial or otherwise.  I am afraid I have yet to see that.

[orangeman]

Did the state PAY the orders / institutions for looking after the children ??

[Jim_Murphy_74]

Did the state PAY the orders / institutions for looking after the children ??

Most congregations were paid a captitation grant per child.

The comission determined that grants were sufficient for child needs but that funds were diverted to other uses by the congregations involved.

EDIT: Todays Indo:

http://www.independent.ie/health/latest-news/children-used-as-a-cash-crop-by-schools-1747689.html

[Donagh]

On the subject of the Indo, did anyone see Eoghan Harris on the telly last night? Apparently he is convinced all the child abusers were ardent nationalists and that this only happened because Ireland left the British Empire.

[Declan]

On the subject of the Indo, did anyone see Eoghan Harris on the telly last night? Apparently he is convinced all the child abusers were ardent nationalists and that this only happened because Ireland left the British Empire.

Didn't see muppet Harris but maybe this was his pseudonym this morning in the Times!

Madam, – The War of Independence ushered in a reign of terror for children who were poor, abandoned or from family circumstances which did not conform to a semi-fascist ideal. Would their lives have been as wretched had the entire island remained under British control? I doubt it. – Yours, etc,

SHEELAGH MORRIS,

Shankill,

Co Dublin.