Cookstown Incident

[Tony Baloney]

What is corporate manslaughter?

Is the offence when an organisation has grossly breached their duty of care resulting in the death of an individual or individuals.

Does this mean the organisation gets the penalty rather that the individuals/corporate officers?

I can't recall the specifics from training at work and the legal lads here will know, but I think the organisation get the corporate manslaughter rap for gross breach of a duty of care and senior management may get a gross negligence rap if their practices led to the breach. Our place do a lot of awareness training on this to scare the shite out of people!

[moysider]

I'm surprised it was necessary to arrest anyone I would have thought these matters could have been handled by voluntary interviews. Particularly given the charge.

Political and social pressure to be seen to be doing something.  Surely a better way would be to allow the families to have their time and carry out a thorough investigation and then make the arrests.  Only my opinion of course but an arrest seems a wee bit like a knee-jerk reaction.

Disagree. I would have been dismayed if there was/were no arrest/s. That was a crime scene.

[Armagh18]

Firstly, deepest condolences to the familes and friends of the 3 teenagers. Absolutely shocking and really hits home as it could have happened to literally anyone, including myself or my friends at any venue in the country. I'm not going to point fingers without all the facts, but a serious review and changes need to happen with the way bouncers handle crowds at all night clubs. This keeping crowds outside for no reason needs to atop. If true that the doors were locked and people were refused to be let in when they were literally being crushed then thats absolutely shocking and horrifying. I hope justice is done and families can get some closure.

[Armagh18]

I'm surprised it was necessary to arrest anyone I would have thought these matters could have been handled by voluntary interviews. Particularly given the charge.

Political and social pressure to be seen to be doing something.  Surely a better way would be to allow the families to have their time and carry out a thorough investigation and then make the arrests.  Only my opinion of course but an arrest seems a wee bit like a knee-jerk reaction.

Disagree. I would have been dismayed if there was/were no arrest/s. That was a crime scene.

It's a difficult one. Of course no one set out for this to happen, so its hard to blame bouncers etc but on the other hand having experienced the smug arsehole attitude of some bouncers, you'd want them get the rap (if indeed they are to blame in this case.) 

[imtommygunn]

It seems to have been corrected to be manslaughter as opposed to corporate manslaughter. (It is stated "on suspicion of" rather than being charged with it).

[Square Ball]

From the BBC site.

One of the men arrested, Michael McElhatton, is the owner of the Greenvale Hotel in Cookstown where the incident happened on Sunday.

No surprise given the definition of corporate manslaughter and what Ball Hopper posted

[BennyCake]

I'm surprised it was necessary to arrest anyone I would have thought these matters could have been handled by voluntary interviews. Particularly given the charge.

Political and social pressure to be seen to be doing something.  Surely a better way would be to allow the families to have their time and carry out a thorough investigation and then make the arrests.  Only my opinion of course but an arrest seems a wee bit like a knee-jerk reaction.

Yeah, totally agree

[tbrick18]

I won't pretend to know anything about the legalities of it all, but I do know that current setup in terms of layout of the Greenvale has been like that for quite a few years. I would imagine this had to have been passed by building control and assessed by the council for health and safety. So if the council had given it the seal of approval, the establishment is probably in the clear legally from that point of view.

How things were handled on the night when the situation started is different and without knowing what anyone did or didn't do, guessing is not helpful.

I did hear today from a teacher in one of the schools that the event didn't start until 9.30. Buses however were dropping kids off from before 8. Lots of them with alcohol. So they were perhaps in the car park for 1-2 hours before the incident happened and some at least were drinking. I'm not sure what onus is on the hotel to cater for or be responsible for supervising that. Perhaps they are responsible for managing that? I have no idea.

As for the two arrests, I would think this would be standard practice for something like this would it not? Just to give the authorities the mechanism for asking the questions and proper grounds for prosecution if deemed necessary.

To really make things worse, some very worrying news in the Dungannon area tonight. If anyone is from the area or has children in any way linked to the schools or the events of the weekend, please keep a very close eye on them. There are some very distressed children at the moment and children in distress can make some very rash decisions.

[imtommygunn]

From the BBC site.

One of the men arrested, Michael McElhatton, is the owner of the Greenvale Hotel in Cookstown where the incident happened on Sunday.

No surprise given the definition of corporate manslaughter and what Ball Hopper posted

It's been corrected by bbc. Manslaughter not corporate manslaughter.

[WT4E]

I dont want to say too much but have heard a rumour that CCTV will be pretty damning on one bouncer for sure. Hope what I'm hearing is wrong.

[Minus15]

https://www.sia.homeoffice.gov.uk/Pages/training-ds.aspx

Queue and crowd management forms a part of the training that the Door Supervisor undertakes.

It will be interesting to hear if the staff on duty were employed directly by the hotel and whether or not they were suitably licenced with the proper training.

[moysider]

I won't pretend to know anything about the legalities of it all, but I do know that current setup in terms of layout of the Greenvale has been like that for quite a few years. I would imagine this had to have been passed by building control and assessed by the council for health and safety. So if the council had given it the seal of approval, the establishment is probably in the clear legally from that point of view.

How things were handled on the night when the situation started is different and without knowing what anyone did or didn't do, guessing is not helpful.

LotsI did hear today from a teacher in one of the schools that the event didn't start until 9.30. Buses however were dropping kids off from before 8. of them with alcohol. So they were perhaps in the car park for 1-2 hours before the incident happened and some at least were drinking. I'm not sure what onus is on the hotel to cater for or be responsible for supervising that. Perhaps they are responsible for managing that? I have no idea.

As for the two arrests, I would think this would be standard practice for something like this would it not? Just to give the authorities the mechanism for asking the questions and proper grounds for prosecution if deemed necessary.

To really make things worse, some very worrying news in the Dungannon area tonight. If anyone is from the area or has children in any way linked to the schools or the events of the weekend, please keep a very close eye on them. There are some very distressed children at the moment and children in distress can make some very rash decisions.

The organisers of the event were responsible for the wellbeing of those that attended - regardless of starting time. The owner of the property is responsible as well, for the wellbeing of people on his property, even if he was not the prime organiser of the event? This was a terrible thing to happen but it wasn't an accident. It was gross negligence. That some kids were drinking has nothing got to do with it.

[RedHand88]

I won't pretend to know anything about the legalities of it all, but I do know that current setup in terms of layout of the Greenvale has been like that for quite a few years. I would imagine this had to have been passed by building control and assessed by the council for health and safety. So if the council had given it the seal of approval, the establishment is probably in the clear legally from that point of view.

How things were handled on the night when the situation started is different and without knowing what anyone did or didn't do, guessing is not helpful.

I did hear today from a teacher in one of the schools that the event didn't start until 9.30. Buses however were dropping kids off from before 8. Lots of them with alcohol. So they were perhaps in the car park for 1-2 hours before the incident happened and some at least were drinking. I'm not sure what onus is on the hotel to cater for or be responsible for supervising that. Perhaps they are responsible for managing that? I have no idea.

As for the two arrests, I would think this would be standard practice for something like this would it not? Just to give the authorities the mechanism for asking the questions and proper grounds for prosecution if deemed necessary.

To really make things worse, some very worrying news in the Dungannon area tonight. If anyone is from the area or has children in any way linked to the schools or the events of the weekend, please keep a very close eye on them. There are some very distressed children at the moment and children in distress can make some very rash decisions.

See hes come out to say he's ok and it's not true. I would love to know who starts crap like this. Is it to get a kick out of it or what?

Good point though about keeping an eye on ones.

[omagh_gael]

What's that all about lads?

[tyrone girl]

A rumour had been flying about from early evening that a young person had taken their own life. Thankfully it seems to have been false but horrific to think how this kind of thing gets passed around. How does it even start?