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Was it not the case that Armstrong had EPO in some o his blood samples but these samples were taken pre EPO being banned?

I don't believe for one second Armstrong was clean - I think he just knew how to avoid failing the tests. Maybe that's the cynic in me but I just think that the cycling game is dirty and to be at the top you need to be taking part in that.

There is the theory that Armstrong was a supreme athlete - much better than the rest. In that case though why did he need EPO before it was banned?

Last year the draw was made after Cushendall - Ballycastle.

It coincidentally worked out to be 1st v 2nd in the other group. Like I and give-it-timber said though can't be sure if it's completely open - ie can teams from the same group play each other.

Milltown you talk about the scoring averages etc. to avoid cushendall until the final but is it not the case that the semis are open draw? This could then mean 1st and 2nd in the one group could play each other? Or is it open in that you can draw any of the top two in the other group(but not the one in your own)?

GNevin I fail to see your argument with Dublin have won 3 provincials in a row so are therefore a level above Derry.

The dubs beat laois in the final who derry beat so derry would pretty much beat everything in leinster.

Last year Kerry didn't win their provincial Dublin did so were Kerry last year a level below Dublin?

Tyrone won 2 all ireladns in 3 years. In this time they won 1 ulster. In provincial terms it pales compared to dublin so would dublin be a step above them?

I think Dublin will beat Derry but I think your opinion that Dublin are a league above because they have 3 provincials in 3  isn't much of an argument. Ulster is a minefield. Dublin against Meath is the only real tough derby game dublin get. They needed a replay to come through it this year too. Imagine every game was like that. That is what ulster is like. Leinster is a stroll in the park in comparison. You read about the lessons Dublin have learnt and they're from an ulster team - tyrone. The year they got that lesson tyrone didn't win ulster. Provincial titles mean jack shit at this stage.

Responses like Gnevin's are the main reason I would really love to see Derry beat Dublin too!

I would honestly love to see Derry win this one but I just can't see it.

They have the defenders capable of closing out Dublin's key men but around the "middle third" they just don't, I think, have the mobility or the ability to deliver enough quality ball to cause Dublin's rearguard significant problems. The half forward line has been a major issue for years and there's nothing I can see which has resolved that. Realistically they have beaten Antrim, an aging Armagh, a "transitional" Mayo and Laois who Dublin have wiped the floor with already. The one half decent team they have faced in Monaghan wiped the floor with them.

Like I say I hope I'm wrong but that's the way I see it.They have learnt a lot from the Monaghan game but still Dublin by 5.

I think Creggan are in for a big game in this one. A few years ago Portglenone were flying high and st johns dumped them out at the first hurdle. The johnnies in the championship are a different kettle of fish to the league.  This game will be much tighter than form would suggest.

St Brigids will really challenge Portglenone I think. I don't think Portglenone are a great team at all to be honest. They've a left footed free taker in your man McCallion and wee Gerard McAleese from play / frees but not that much more scoring threat. They have some solid players in Convery, McCarry and a few other boys but that asides they are no great shakes. I really think there could be a big shock in this one.

The other two will go the way of the favourites I suspect.

Sounds like an excellent idea Milltown. At present because it's open draw teams can slack off when they're through rather than play for first and teams at other end can have nothing to play for. Your suggestion knocks both of those on the head.

The Glenariff scenario really highlights what can go bad with these league stages.

Gees Rossa always seem to get away with things...

Aghagallon should never have been brought into this. What was the need to play that match so much earlier than the rest of the games anyway?? Complete mess as usual.

A few perhaps dubious things went against Antrim with referees decisions at the end.

Who the hell was marking the guy who was clean free in front of goals though?? That's what killed us not decisions.

We still did ourselves proud. Took some fine scores and to be honest looked as good as a lot of what was on view in the next match. Much promise shown and we can't go blaming referees or pin pointing individuals. Once we got our subs made and got the team stabilised (from about half way through the second half) we controlled a lot of that game and it should have been well away from Wicklow in extra time. Wicklow aren't bad though and at times looked like they'd steam roll us. They've some good footballers in the Carlow man, the number 7 and the number 14.

I hope in the future we don't play with so big a gap between the half forward line and the full forward line though!

On the subject of Fay I suspect he will be in an AI final. If the Kerry - Meath match materialises, which I think it will, his battle against Donaghy should be a great one.

With the all stars so far Bray is a cert so far, Masters most likely would have been but hard to say what will happen now. Gormley should really get one too. The man looked like he could barely walk on saturday and he still curbed Bray. Freeman should really get one - but he'll probably need a big game against Kerry to cement this. Kerry should have them in O'Mahoney who has been very good and Cooper. O'Se in midfield could get one if he gets fit but he looks like he's ate a few too many pies just at the minute. Murphy was superb on saturday so I'd expect him to get one. Moyles I'm not sure about but Geraghty I would expect to get one.

Shoe ins so far:
Gormley
Bray
Geraghty
Murphy
Gooch
O'Mahoney

Strong possibilities:
Masters
Freeman
Keaney
Henry
Lockhart(based on what I read but haven't really seen much of him)

You're being a bit harsh on Dooher there O'Neill. Who put Kavanagh through for his goal - yes Dooher and he won some break ball but clearly wasn't fuly fit.

I wouldn't go writing any post mortems on this tyrone team yet. One thing they  do lack is a top quality corner back. They then need to utilise Gormely there when they need him at CHB.

You look at today and I don't think Gormley was half fit nor was Dooher. Mulligan had a shocker with his shooting adn O'Neill hardly got any game time. Put all these boys back in and Tyrone are still a formidable outfit. Add to that Brian McGuigan.

The questions I would ask... Ricey as a top quality corner back? Kevin Hughes - has he still got it? Can Jordan get his engine back? Hughes and Jordan are probably replaceable but Ricey as a man marker is arguably not. Has Cavlan still got it would be another question.

Meath aren't bad - but I would leave it at that - aren't bad. The two corner forwards are very good and Moyles adds a good bit to the team . Geraghty also, despite being a tr**p, is a top quality player. Fay still has it and the rest of the players are "steely" but there is no real brilliance aside from what I mentioned.

Cork shouldn't trouble Meath. The winner of the AI should be from the other side of the draw. Who knows how Dublin and Derry will go but Kerry should realistically be the team to beat.

All in all I still think Tyrone are still very much a big gun and injury permitting will be a huge force next year.

Well ok it is more than perceived but when else would we get a chance to play in croke park! It's the hand we've been dealt and we've done well with it so we may take the chance while we've got it.

Not much comment on the tommy murphy cup here.

I have to say that I'm looking forward to seeing the footballers play in croke park. I know this is perceived as a "mickey mouse" competition but I think Jody has done well to keep focus in the squad to get this far - you only have to remember that last year we couldn't beat Clare in casement and this year we beat them in Clare. I think the winning and getting this far will breed a bit more confidence too.

Regarding Aghagallon - St Endas. Reading on other sites it still seems like rossa may go to the ulster council about this so that whole saga may not be over. Hopefully it doesn't mess the whole competition up.

Magill and Dougan should be in the squad - they're two decent footballers and it's good to see them there.

Antrim: C O'Donnell, A Graffin, C McKinley,

M Devlin, N McAuley, N McManus (0-2), B McFall, S McCrory, C Duffin (0-1), S McNaughton (0-2), C McFall (0-2), E McCloskey (0-1), S McDonnell (0-1), P Doherty (1-2), P Shiels (0-6). Subs: C Donnelly (0-1) for S McCrory; McKeague for C Duffin.

There's the team. The only positive thing I could say is that most of that team are u21 again next year.

I would suspect that this team are still very light for u21 level and maybe derry produced some physical hurling in order to expose this.

Still an awful awful result. I was really hoping these boys could have given the dubs a good rattle.

If this is the level we are at with our "great hopes" then you would have to ask where is the real hope for us.

Can only get better...