Eighth Amendment poll

[omaghjoe]

Well I have to say I was disappointed by the result and shocked at the margin.

Much similar to Brexit and Trump I don't blame the people for voting the way they did. I think they were hoodwinked under a couple of pretenses. Namely, it being a woman's health issue, that the unborn are somehow not human. and that it is going to happen anyway....

But the overriding factor I believe is actually to somehow cast of any perception that the international view of Ireland as a backwater languishing under the authority of bishops. and the countries that legalise abortion are somehow more socially advanced and progressive by allowing it.

Those points have been flogged to death, I don't believe that they stand up to any scrutiny at all. And that it is straight up and down decision between the life of the unborn and the choice of a mother.

The Yes campaign were successful in hammering those messages home and they got thru. Couple that with portraying No voters as ignorant and stupid at every opportunity and you have the ingredients for a successful campaign. Seemingly this was aided by a few insentitive blunders from the lead figures of the No campaign and graphic posters which people found off putting.

Funnily enough I actually had the pro choice view on abortion for a long time but became more in the middle in my 20s and when it came to fatherhood I suddenly found myself very firmly in the prolife side of the fence.

I dont hold up any hope for the legislation to be restrictive with on demand abortions. Simon Harris and Varadker seem intend on harnessing this progressive wave for their own careers

It will not affect me much as i live in America were its legal anyway. But I was always quite proud of Ireland's position on this, that Ireland was a beacon of light on abortion were the rest of the world had accepted something that was wrong. It was clear tho that a prolife position of Irish society was slipping for some time going on the amount of women travelling to England, which is the real tragedy. At the end of the day if a woman is determined to carry out an abortion she will make the choice herself regardless of the law and regardless of right or wrong she will do it anyway.

The challenge is to take the position back and build it from the ground up where as a society everyone recognizes that they are extinguishing an unborn person's life and not just a bundle of cells, so that even tho there is a choice one is right and one is wrong and that the right choice will be made in the majority of cases.

[Farrandeelin]

Euthanasia next? John Halligan thinks so.

[seafoid]

Euthanasia next? John Halligan thinks so.

If it meant more jobs for Waterford hospital he'd probably approve of it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBP-M0ANMyM
there is no evidence anywhere of abortion law leading to euthanasia.

[Hardy]

Euthanasia next? John Halligan thinks so.

If it meant more jobs for Waterford hospital he'd probably approve of it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBP-M0ANMyM
there is no evidence anywhere of abortion law leading to euthanasia.

They probably consider it a gateway right. Hello abortion, goodbye Grandad.

Great post, Easytiger.

[magpie seanie]

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholics-who-voted-yes-should-consider-confession-says-bishop-1.3511127

Any catholic who voted yes really should not darken the door of the church again but  the hypocritical nature of the irish public will make them oblivious of what they are doing. I'll guarantee you that all these young ladies backing the yes campaign will demand their weddings in the church.

I did find it bewildering that there were yes campaigners crying  with happiness regarding the outcome of the vote. Tears of joy due to being granted the opportunity to murder your baby is a pretty sick state of mind. The new ireland is fast becoming a haven for slogan following, politically correct sheep.

You have absolutely no clue what's going on.

I could say exactly the same of yourself.
I hope the government will afford the people of the country the opportunity to repeal the repeal of the 8th in 10 years time when they see the chaos unlimited abortion will cause.

If you did then it would be another thing you're wrong about.

The great thing about a democracy is that if a terrible mistake is made with a law the people, if they are in a majority, can overturn it. As we have seen with this issue.

I really do not believe there will be the "chaos" you envisage will happen. Time will tell. I suspect that in 10 years time womens lives will have been saved and the rate of Irish abortions will be lower than it is currently. So if you're a so-called "pro-lifer" you should be happy about that.

The world needs a lot more compassion and understanding and a lot less moralising and judgement. Lets work on that now and see where it takes us.

Cracking post again Easytiger.

[Asal Mor]

Euthanasia next? John Halligan thinks so.

Anyone who is in favour of abortion being legalised would have to be in favour of euthanasia too, unless their notion of choice is very warped(I'm in favour of both).

[Jim_Murphy_74]

Well I have to say I was disappointed by the result and shocked at the margin.

Much similar to Brexit and Trump I don't blame the people for voting the way they did. I think they were hoodwinked under a couple of pretenses. Namely, it being a woman's health issue, that the unborn are somehow not human.

For many of us that wrestled with this, those two issues are not mutually exclusive.

and that it is going to happen anyway....

This is true and it's something that has to be at least considered.  When something is happening so widespread, if it's brought into the system it can be at least regulated.

But the overriding factor I believe is actually to somehow cast of any perception that the international view of Ireland as a backwater languishing under the authority of bishops. and the countries that legalise abortion are somehow more socially advanced and progressive by allowing it.

Maybe it's because you are out of the country and it was reported as such internationally.  As someone who followed the debate closely I would argue this was an irish discussion, framed in an irish context.  In fact if anyone pointed elsewhere it was the no side, as they based a lot of arguments on the UK experience.  Specifically comparing the original intent versus actually results.

The Yes campaign were successful in hammering those messages home and they got thru. Couple that with portraying No voters as ignorant and stupid at every opportunity and you have the ingredients for a successful campaign. Seemingly this was aided by a few insensitive blunders from the lead figures of the No campaign and graphic posters which people found off putting.

The yes side certainly captured the human side of women in difficult situations and getting them to tell their story.  The difficulty the no side had with this was their tactic from the start was to dismiss this group of women as "less than 3%" and not engage them.   It came across time and time again as lacking empathy for their situation.  So much so that they seemed to change their tactics in the final few days to claim that they were a coalition of "full on pro-lifers" and "soft yes voters who felt legislation went too far".  To me it came across as a bit cynical and I wonder was it behind the (alleged) split in the camp in the final days.

The challenge is to take the position back and build it from the ground up where as a society everyone recognizes that they are extinguishing an unborn person's life and not just a bundle of cells, so that even tho there is a choice one is right and one is wrong and that the right choice will be made in the majority of cases.

Again I think you do the broader discourse in Ireland a disservice.  I think very few are fully in either camp.  In fact I think that Simon Harris won a lot of voters with his argument that life is not black and white.  It's a case that there are grey areas and having an absolutist statement in the constitution doesn't lend itself to that.    The No side tried to keep the absolute line and it didn't resonate with the electorate.  Again they couldn't keep a consistent message on this:

https://twitter.com/newsworthy_ie/status/999588348221063169

As for making sure the right choice in the majority of cases then I think this is where the "soft yes" side need to front up.  Now that as a country we give people this choice, we need to ensure it's not the only choice.   Culturally we need to make sure that the options other than abortion are portrayed in a positive light.   Education and contraception are needed for young people to avoid a slew of teenagers (of their own or parents volition) come looking for terminations.   People of disability and their families must have all the supports they need.   

/Jim.

[gallsman]

Euthanasia next? John Halligan thinks so.

Anyone who is in favour of abortion being legalised would have to be in favour of euthanasia too, unless their notion of choice is very warped(I'm in favour of both).

Well no, they wouldn't. You don't get to tell people what they would believe.

One of the fundamental questions around abortion is the point at which life begins. That question doesn't exist for a discussion on euthanasia. A great many people would take issue with drawing an equivalence between the two.

That said, I too would be in favour of voluntary assisted dying for those with life limiting illnesses.

[seafoid]

Euthanasia next? John Halligan thinks so.

Anyone who is in favour of abortion being legalised would have to be in favour of euthanasia too, unless their notion of choice is very warped(I'm in favour of both).

Well no, they wouldn't. You don't get to tell people what they would believe.

One of the fundamental questions around abortion is the point at which life begins. That question doesn't exist for a discussion on euthanasia. A great many people would take issue with drawing an equivalence between the two.

That said, I too would be in favour of voluntary assisted dying for those with life limiting illnesses.

That's not euthanasia.
The Exit clinic in Zurich does assisted suicide but the person has to choose consciously and apply the material.
Euthanasia is without consent.

[gallsman]

Euthanasia next? John Halligan thinks so.

Anyone who is in favour of abortion being legalised would have to be in favour of euthanasia too, unless their notion of choice is very warped(I'm in favour of both).

Well no, they wouldn't. You don't get to tell people what they would believe.

One of the fundamental questions around abortion is the point at which life begins. That question doesn't exist for a discussion on euthanasia. A great many people would take issue with drawing an equivalence between the two.

That said, I too would be in favour of voluntary assisted dying for those with life limiting illnesses.

That's not euthanasia.
The Exit clinic in Zurich does assisted suicide but the person has to choose consciously and apply the material.
Euthanasia is without consent.

No, it's not. Euthanasia covers a range of actions. You're specifically referring to non-voluntary euthanasia.

[sid waddell]

Euthanasia next? John Halligan thinks so.

If it meant more jobs for Waterford hospital he'd probably approve of it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBP-M0ANMyM
there is no evidence anywhere of abortion law leading to euthanasia.

They probably consider it a gateway right. Hello abortion, goodbye Grandad.

Great post, Easytiger.

Hello 8th Amendment, goodbye Mammy would have been a much more accurate and pertninent slogan back in 1983.

[longballin]

Euthanasia a whole separate issue, should be separate thread.
Meanwhile Fr Patrick McCafferty says he'll protest outside abortion clinics and giving out at Yes voters who get married in a church while Newry priest Damien Quigley warned a couple that advocating Yes vote could mean their wedding not taking place in a Catholic Church. These celibates in dresses still think they hold some moral authority after the church scandals still emerging. 

[armaghniac]

One of the fundamental questions around abortion is the point at which life begins. That question doesn't exist for a discussion on euthanasia. A great many people would take issue with drawing an equivalence between the two.

That said, I too would be in favour of voluntary assisted dying for those with life limiting illnesses.

Abortion is several things rolled into one. The case of fatal faetal abnormality has something in common with euthanasia.

[Hardy]

Euthanasia a whole separate issue, should be separate thread.
Meanwhile Fr Patrick McCafferty says he'll protest outside abortion clinics and giving out at Yes voters who get married in a church while Newry priest Damien Quigley warned a couple that advocating Yes vote could mean their wedding not taking place in a Catholic Church. These celibates in dresses still think they hold some moral authority after the church scandals still emerging. 

The amusing thing is that these dinosaurs still don't get it. You had the bishop during the week telling Catholics who voted 'Yes' to go to confession - completely oblivious to the message that the fear and threat approach is as dead as John Cleese's parrot and failing to notice that that is the reason so many of his 'flock' voted as they did.

Now you have this idiot priest trying the same approach and not noticing the expired parrot status of the clericalism that kept the feet of likes of him on the throats of the people for centuries.

I think they're waiting to be told to get out of our lives, failing to understand that they're no longer in our lives, nor even in the lives of the believers they purport to lead. As far as I can see, believing Catholics are listening to their consciences these days and not to these reactionary apologists for centuries of intimidation, abuse, contempt, loathing and simple disrespect of their fellow human beings.

[LeoMc]

Euthanasia a whole separate issue, should be separate thread.
Meanwhile Fr Patrick McCafferty says he'll protest outside abortion clinics and giving out at Yes voters who get married in a church while Newry priest Damien Quigley warned a couple that advocating Yes vote could mean their wedding not taking place in a Catholic Church. These celibates in dresses still think they hold some moral authority after the church scandals still emerging. 

The amusing thing is that these dinosaurs still don't get it. You had the bishop during the week telling Catholics who voted 'Yes' to go to confession - completely oblivious to the message that the fear and threat approach is as dead as John Cleese's parrot and failing to notice that that is the reason so many of his 'flock' voted as they did.

Now you have this idiot priest trying the same approach and not noticing the expired parrot status of the clericalism that kept the feet of likes of him on the throats of the people for centuries.

I think they're waiting to be told to get out of our lives, failing to understand that they're no longer in our lives, nor even in the lives of the believers they purport to lead. As far as I can see, believing Catholics are listening to their consciences these days and not to these reactionary apologists for centuries of intimidation, abuse, contempt, loathing and simple disrespect of their fellow human beings.

It is still their club and if you want in you play by their rules.
If you don't believe in the Church don't go to it for a church wedding. There are plenty of places will do civil ceremonies.