The Offical Glasgow Celtic thread

[Angelo]

Keane played in a pretty average EPL. All the best players played in Italy at the time. United continued to dominate the EPL for years after he left.

There is no doubt he was a key player for both United and Ireland but his impact was overstated. Ireland had a very good World Cup after he departed in shame in 2002 and didn't look like they miss. United went on to beat Bayern in the final of the CL when he was there.

Liam Brady had a far more impressive career for me. Keane end up getting humiliated by a mechanic in the Scottish Cup before hanging up his boots.

[Angelo]

Big jump in betting thus morning, Eddie howe into evens and Keane out to 5-1. So whatever talks were going on mustn't have worked out.

Seems to have been rumours doing the rounds that Howe was spotted in Glasgow but it's probably total BS.

[John Egans left boot]

Big jump in betting thus morning, Eddie howe into evens and Keane out to 5-1. So whatever talks were going on mustn't have worked out.

Seems to have been rumours doing the rounds that Howe was spotted in Glasgow but it's probably total BS.

PL was pictured last year playing golf with EH at Troon I think it was.People have probably mentioned this before.

[Itchy]

Keane played in a pretty average EPL. All the best players played in Italy at the time. United continued to dominate the EPL for years after he left.

There is no doubt he was a key player for both United and Ireland but his impact was overstated. Ireland had a very good World Cup after he departed in shame in 2002 and didn't look like they miss. United went on to beat Bayern in the final of the CL when he was there.

Liam Brady had a far more impressive career for me. Keane end up getting humiliated by a mechanic in the Scottish Cup before hanging up his boots.

Angelo - you accused me and people like me of being Keane Fanboys. You are clearly a person who is bitter with him over Saipan. To try and diminish what Keane achieved as a player is just nonsense of the highest order. He regularly owned midfield against players of the ability of Zidane, Gerrard, Viera, Davids. This is not even a debate. Whether you like the guys behaviour off the field or not the facts of his ability and achievements as a player are not in question.

[sid waddell]

You can make a decent argument that Roy Keane is the greatest ever Irish footballer

Is he the greatest ever Ireland player? No way

It was asserted that all the best players in the world played in Italy when Keane was in his peak years

That's a lie

[6th sam]

Keane played in a pretty average EPL. All the best players played in Italy at the time. United continued to dominate the EPL for years after he left.

There is no doubt he was a key player for both United and Ireland but his impact was overstated. Ireland had a very good World Cup after he departed in shame in 2002 and didn't look like they miss. United went on to beat Bayern in the final of the CL when he was there.

Liam Brady had a far more impressive career for me. Keane end up getting humiliated by a mechanic in the Scottish Cup before hanging up his boots.

Angelo, you make some great points, but these are often undermined and you lose credibility by making aggressive controversial statements and backing them up with confirmational  bias. I would also be opposed to Keane being appointed on the basis of his Managerial CV, but controversially questioning his status  as A player undermines your reasonable opinion that he could be disastrous for Celtic. For what it's worth, With some reservations , I took his side in Saipan and enjoy some of his soundbites but his sneering intolerance of many modern players means that he's only ever a couple of defeats away from losing the changing room. I liked the way he confronted much of the primadonna nonsense around soccer , but Tbf players generally have a much more professional attitude nowadays. I think the turning point for me were his heartless comments re Jonathan Walters. He's not the man for Celtic . I'd like to see an Eddie Howe character with a history of getting a team to punch above its weight by getting all the "small gains" right. This is where NL fell down, kudos as a player, but too many weaknesses around coaching, preparation, recovery, recruitment, developing young players , and just expecting players to deliver because if they wear the hooped jersey they should be better than their opponents most of the time. I would fear RK would be more like NL , with his biggest selling point being his kudos as a player and Irishman , whereas EH will be hungrier to earn his kudos and will get all the "small gains" right.

[Angelo]

Keane played in a pretty average EPL. All the best players played in Italy at the time. United continued to dominate the EPL for years after he left.

There is no doubt he was a key player for both United and Ireland but his impact was overstated. Ireland had a very good World Cup after he departed in shame in 2002 and didn't look like they miss. United went on to beat Bayern in the final of the CL when he was there.

Liam Brady had a far more impressive career for me. Keane end up getting humiliated by a mechanic in the Scottish Cup before hanging up his boots.

Angelo - you accused me and people like me of being Keane Fanboys. You are clearly a person who is bitter with him over Saipan. To try and diminish what Keane achieved as a player is just nonsense of the highest order. He regularly owned midfield against players of the ability of Zidane, Gerrard, Viera, Davids. This is not even a debate. Whether you like the guys behaviour off the field or not the facts of his ability and achievements as a player are not in question.

Not at all.

Saipan is something that tarnishes his legacy for sure but he was also very overrated.

Two things Keane fanboys regularly roll out about his influence.

His tackle on Overmars against the Dutch. It was a solid overall team performance, for me Duff was the best player pitch that day.

Him squaring up to Vieira in the tunnel as being the seminal moment in deciding that game. Vieira was so shook up that he scored in the first 5 minutes.

His attitude to the Irish jersey was a disgrace, pulling out of a World Cup playoff in Iran so he could play a league game against Leicester a few days later sums up his commitment to Ireland.

[6th sam]

Keane played in a pretty average EPL. All the best players played in Italy at the time. United continued to dominate the EPL for years after he left.

There is no doubt he was a key player for both United and Ireland but his impact was overstated. Ireland had a very good World Cup after he departed in shame in 2002 and didn't look like they miss. United went on to beat Bayern in the final of the CL when he was there.

Liam Brady had a far more impressive career for me. Keane end up getting humiliated by a mechanic in the Scottish Cup before hanging up his boots.

Angelo - you accused me and people like me of being Keane Fanboys. You are clearly a person who is bitter with him over Saipan. To try and diminish what Keane achieved as a player is just nonsense of the highest order. He regularly owned midfield against players of the ability of Zidane, Gerrard, Viera, Davids. This is not even a debate. Whether you like the guys behaviour off the field or not the facts of his ability and achievements as a player are not in question.

Not at all.

Saipan is something that tarnishes his legacy for sure but he was also very overrated.

Two things Keane fanboys regularly roll out about his influence.

His tackle on Overmars against the Dutch. It was a solid overall team performance, for me Duff was the best player pitch that day.

Him squaring up to Vieira in the tunnel as being the seminal moment in deciding that game. Vieira was so shook up that he scored in the first 5 minutes.

His attitude to the Irish jersey was a disgrace, pulling out of a World Cup playoff in Iran so he could play a league game against Leicester a few days later sums up his commitment to Ireland.

Confirmational bias again , all the above arguments could be countered with similar confirmational bias from me, but I'm not going down that route. The good thing is my opinion and your opinion is dwarfed in terms of relevance by the opinions of  top world players of his era recognising that he was an outstanding player at the very top level.

[sid waddell]

Keane is far from the only top player who had a questionable commitment to his national team

Diego Maradona didn't play for Argentina from 1982 to 1985

Zinedine Zidane retired from the French team after 2004 before coming back for the Ireland game in September '05

Zlatan Ibrahimovic has just returned to the Sweden team after four or five years away

Johan Cruyff didn't go to the 1978 World Cup

Alan Shearer retired from England at 30

Ryan Giggs rarely played friendlies for Wales

Numerous other top players walked out on national teams - Bernd Schuster, Fernando Redondo, Ruud Gullit

[Angelo]

Keane played in a pretty average EPL. All the best players played in Italy at the time. United continued to dominate the EPL for years after he left.

There is no doubt he was a key player for both United and Ireland but his impact was overstated. Ireland had a very good World Cup after he departed in shame in 2002 and didn't look like they miss. United went on to beat Bayern in the final of the CL when he was there.

Liam Brady had a far more impressive career for me. Keane end up getting humiliated by a mechanic in the Scottish Cup before hanging up his boots.

Angelo, you make some great points, but these are often undermined and you lose credibility by making aggressive controversial statements and backing them up with confirmational  bias. I would also be opposed to Keane being appointed on the basis of his Managerial CV, but controversially questioning his status  as A player undermines your reasonable opinion that he could be disastrous for Celtic. For what it's worth, With some reservations , I took his side in Saipan and enjoy some of his soundbites but his sneering intolerance of many modern players means that he's only ever a couple of defeats away from losing the changing room. I liked the way he confronted much of the primadonna nonsense around soccer , but Tbf players generally have a much more professional attitude nowadays. I think the turning point for me were his heartless comments re Jonathan Walters. He's not the man for Celtic . I'd like to see an Eddie Howe character with a history of getting a team to punch above its weight by getting all the "small gains" right. This is where NL fell down, kudos as a player, but too many weaknesses around coaching, preparation, recovery, recruitment, developing young players , and just expecting players to deliver because if they wear the hooped jersey they should be better than their opponents most of the time. I would fear RK would be more like NL , with his biggest selling point being his kudos as a player and Irishman , whereas EH will be hungrier to earn his kudos and will get all the "small gains" right.

What have I questioned?

Did I say he was rubbish? No.

Did I say he was overrated? Yes.

Did I support that with facts? Yes.

United went onto have great success after Keane left
- Won 5 of the next 7 league titles
- A CL and another CL final appearance

They only went into decline post Ferguson - Keane was dispensable.

Similarly with Ireland. Very impressive World Cup without him. They only really started to decline as the likes of Duff, Robbie Keane, Given, Dunne etc came to the end.

So how good was he? I'd say someone like Rino Gattuso or Edgar Davids or Diego Simeone is a good yardstick for Keane as a player. Gattuso was probably a more complete footballer

Keane was possibly a top 10 midfielder in the world at his very peak. I'd say that's a fair summation of him.

I'm going to give some names here - Pirlo, Vieira, Makelele, Nedved, Rui Costa, Zidane, Redondo, Ballack, Effenberg, Hagi, Seedorf etc

Would he have been notably any better than Scholes, Giggs, Beckham?

How well did these guys fare outside of the United bubble.

I think it's clear now, maybe it wasn't at the time but the only indispensable part of the United journey was Ferguson. You look at how he made guys like Darren Fletcher and Ji Sung Park vita components in a team. I think it's obvious that a lot of these players owe Alex Ferguson for what they achieved in their career rather than the other way around.

I think the only two United players who have probably went on to really prove themselves elsewhere after leaving Ferguson's United were Ronaldo and Van Nistelrooy.

[Angelo]

Keane played in a pretty average EPL. All the best players played in Italy at the time. United continued to dominate the EPL for years after he left.

There is no doubt he was a key player for both United and Ireland but his impact was overstated. Ireland had a very good World Cup after he departed in shame in 2002 and didn't look like they miss. United went on to beat Bayern in the final of the CL when he was there.

Liam Brady had a far more impressive career for me. Keane end up getting humiliated by a mechanic in the Scottish Cup before hanging up his boots.

Angelo - you accused me and people like me of being Keane Fanboys. You are clearly a person who is bitter with him over Saipan. To try and diminish what Keane achieved as a player is just nonsense of the highest order. He regularly owned midfield against players of the ability of Zidane, Gerrard, Viera, Davids. This is not even a debate. Whether you like the guys behaviour off the field or not the facts of his ability and achievements as a player are not in question.

Not at all.

Saipan is something that tarnishes his legacy for sure but he was also very overrated.

Two things Keane fanboys regularly roll out about his influence.

His tackle on Overmars against the Dutch. It was a solid overall team performance, for me Duff was the best player pitch that day.

Him squaring up to Vieira in the tunnel as being the seminal moment in deciding that game. Vieira was so shook up that he scored in the first 5 minutes.

His attitude to the Irish jersey was a disgrace, pulling out of a World Cup playoff in Iran so he could play a league game against Leicester a few days later sums up his commitment to Ireland.

Confirmational bias again , all the above arguments could be countered with similar confirmational bias from me, but I'm not going down that route. The good thing is my opinion and your opinion is dwarfed in terms of relevance by the opinions of  top world players of his era recognising that he was an outstanding player at the very top level.

You seem to be conflating my argument.

I'm not saying he was rubbish. I'm just saying there is a bit of patriotism attached to people trying to inflate his standing in the world at the time. Did he ever come close to winning a Ballon d'Or in his time in the game?

[sid waddell]

Ballon d'Ors aren't everything

Still though a decent case for Keane being in the running for it in or to even win it in 1999 could be made

Much more so than David Beckham I think, who finished second that year, profile counts for a lot

Fernando Redondo wasn't mapped in 2000 when he should probably have been minimum top two

Luis Suarez never finished top three despite being comfortably the third best player in the world over the last decade in my view

Dennis Bergkamp never finished top three, neither has Thomas Muller or Arjen Robben

Michael Owen won it in 2001 based on two matches, the FA Cup final and the Germany-England 5-1

[JimStynes]

Keane played in a pretty average EPL. All the best players played in Italy at the time. United continued to dominate the EPL for years after he left.

There is no doubt he was a key player for both United and Ireland but his impact was overstated. Ireland had a very good World Cup after he departed in shame in 2002 and didn't look like they miss. United went on to beat Bayern in the final of the CL when he was there.

Liam Brady had a far more impressive career for me. Keane end up getting humiliated by a mechanic in the Scottish Cup before hanging up his boots.

Angelo, you make some great points, but these are often undermined and you lose credibility by making aggressive controversial statements and backing them up with confirmational  bias. I would also be opposed to Keane being appointed on the basis of his Managerial CV, but controversially questioning his status  as A player undermines your reasonable opinion that he could be disastrous for Celtic. For what it's worth, With some reservations , I took his side in Saipan and enjoy some of his soundbites but his sneering intolerance of many modern players means that he's only ever a couple of defeats away from losing the changing room. I liked the way he confronted much of the primadonna nonsense around soccer , but Tbf players generally have a much more professional attitude nowadays. I think the turning point for me were his heartless comments re Jonathan Walters. He's not the man for Celtic . I'd like to see an Eddie Howe character with a history of getting a team to punch above its weight by getting all the "small gains" right. This is where NL fell down, kudos as a player, but too many weaknesses around coaching, preparation, recovery, recruitment, developing young players , and just expecting players to deliver because if they wear the hooped jersey they should be better than their opponents most of the time. I would fear RK would be more like NL , with his biggest selling point being his kudos as a player and Irishman , whereas EH will be hungrier to earn his kudos and will get all the "small gains" right.

What have I questioned?

Did I say he was rubbish? No.

Did I say he was overrated? Yes.

Did I support that with facts? Yes.

United went onto have great success after Keane left
- Won 5 of the next 7 league titles
- A CL and another CL final appearance

They only went into decline post Ferguson - Keane was dispensable.

Similarly with Ireland. Very impressive World Cup without him. They only really started to decline as the likes of Duff, Robbie Keane, Given, Dunne etc came to the end.

So how good was he? I'd say someone like Rino Gattuso or Edgar Davids or Diego Simeone is a good yardstick for Keane as a player. Gattuso was probably a more complete footballer

Keane was possibly a top 10 midfielder in the world at his very peak. I'd say that's a fair summation of him.

I'm going to give some names here - Pirlo, Vieira, Makelele, Nedved, Rui Costa, Zidane, Redondo, Ballack, Effenberg, Hagi, Seedorf etc

Would he have been notably any better than Scholes, Giggs, Beckham?

How well did these guys fare outside of the United bubble.

I think it's clear now, maybe it wasn't at the time but the only indispensable part of the United journey was Ferguson. You look at how he made guys like Darren Fletcher and Ji Sung Park vita components in a team. I think it's obvious that a lot of these players owe Alex Ferguson for what they achieved in their career rather than the other way around.

I think the only two United players who have probably went on to really prove themselves elsewhere after leaving Ferguson's United were Ronaldo and Van Nistelrooy.

Have to agree with a lot of what Angelo has said but I think you're undervaluing the leadership Keane provided. He was the one driving that winning culture at united. Teaching the young fellas what it takes and bringing the standards up to a higher level than the teams before him. There is countiess stories from those United players about Keane being the main main and they would have ran through a wall for him. I agree that his footballing ability might not have been the best in the world but his leadership, drive and will to win is what set him apart. This has also proven to be his downfall post playing career as he seems to be frustrated that players don't put the effort into things that he did and then falls out with them all. When he was in decline Fergie made a smart move getting rid of him before he became too much of a disruptive figure.

[snoopdog]

Keane played in a pretty average EPL. All the best players played in Italy at the time. United continued to dominate the EPL for years after he left.

There is no doubt he was a key player for both United and Ireland but his impact was overstated. Ireland had a very good World Cup after he departed in shame in 2002 and didn't look like they miss. United went on to beat Bayern in the final of the CL when he was there.

Liam Brady had a far more impressive career for me. Keane end up getting humiliated by a mechanic in the Scottish Cup before hanging up his boots.

Angelo, you make some great points, but these are often undermined and you lose credibility by making aggressive controversial statements and backing them up with confirmational  bias. I would also be opposed to Keane being appointed on the basis of his Managerial CV, but controversially questioning his status  as A player undermines your reasonable opinion that he could be disastrous for Celtic. For what it's worth, With some reservations , I took his side in Saipan and enjoy some of his soundbites but his sneering intolerance of many modern players means that he's only ever a couple of defeats away from losing the changing room. I liked the way he confronted much of the primadonna nonsense around soccer , but Tbf players generally have a much more professional attitude nowadays. I think the turning point for me were his heartless comments re Jonathan Walters. He's not the man for Celtic . I'd like to see an Eddie Howe character with a history of getting a team to punch above its weight by getting all the "small gains" right. This is where NL fell down, kudos as a player, but too many weaknesses around coaching, preparation, recovery, recruitment, developing young players , and just expecting players to deliver because if they wear the hooped jersey they should be better than their opponents most of the time. I would fear RK would be more like NL , with his biggest selling point being his kudos as a player and Irishman , whereas EH will be hungrier to earn his kudos and will get all the "small gains" right.

What have I questioned?

Did I say he was rubbish? No.

Did I say he was overrated? Yes.

Did I support that with facts? Yes.

United went onto have great success after Keane left
- Won 5 of the next 7 league titles
- A CL and another CL final appearance

They only went into decline post Ferguson - Keane was dispensable.

Similarly with Ireland. Very impressive World Cup without him. They only really started to decline as the likes of Duff, Robbie Keane, Given, Dunne etc came to the end.

So how good was he? I'd say someone like Rino Gattuso or Edgar Davids or Diego Simeone is a good yardstick for Keane as a player. Gattuso was probably a more complete footballer

Keane was possibly a top 10 midfielder in the world at his very peak. I'd say that's a fair summation of him.

I'm going to give some names here - Pirlo, Vieira, Makelele, Nedved, Rui Costa, Zidane, Redondo, Ballack, Effenberg, Hagi, Seedorf etc

Would he have been notably any better than Scholes, Giggs, Beckham?

How well did these guys fare outside of the United bubble.

I think it's clear now, maybe it wasn't at the time but the only indispensable part of the United journey was Ferguson. You look at how he made guys like Darren Fletcher and Ji Sung Park vita components in a team. I think it's obvious that a lot of these players owe Alex Ferguson for what they achieved in their career rather than the other way around.

I think the only two United players who have probably went on to really prove themselves elsewhere after leaving Ferguson's United were Ronaldo and Van Nistelrooy.

Have to agree with a lot of what Angelo has said but I think you're undervaluing the leadership Keane provided. He was the one driving that winning culture at united. Teaching the young fellas what it takes and bringing the standards up to a higher level than the teams before him. There is countiess stories from those United players about Keane being the main main and they would have ran through a wall for him. I agree that his footballing ability might not have been the best in the world but his leadership, drive and will to win is what set him apart. This has also proven to be his downfall post playing career as he seems to be frustrated that players don't put the effort into things that he did and then falls out with them all. When he was in decline Fergie made a smart move getting rid of him before he became too much of a disruptive figure.

Questioning Roy Keane as a player. Are you for real?

[JimStynes]

Keane played in a pretty average EPL. All the best players played in Italy at the time. United continued to dominate the EPL for years after he left.

There is no doubt he was a key player for both United and Ireland but his impact was overstated. Ireland had a very good World Cup after he departed in shame in 2002 and didn't look like they miss. United went on to beat Bayern in the final of the CL when he was there.

Liam Brady had a far more impressive career for me. Keane end up getting humiliated by a mechanic in the Scottish Cup before hanging up his boots.

Angelo, you make some great points, but these are often undermined and you lose credibility by making aggressive controversial statements and backing them up with confirmational  bias. I would also be opposed to Keane being appointed on the basis of his Managerial CV, but controversially questioning his status  as A player undermines your reasonable opinion that he could be disastrous for Celtic. For what it's worth, With some reservations , I took his side in Saipan and enjoy some of his soundbites but his sneering intolerance of many modern players means that he's only ever a couple of defeats away from losing the changing room. I liked the way he confronted much of the primadonna nonsense around soccer , but Tbf players generally have a much more professional attitude nowadays. I think the turning point for me were his heartless comments re Jonathan Walters. He's not the man for Celtic . I'd like to see an Eddie Howe character with a history of getting a team to punch above its weight by getting all the "small gains" right. This is where NL fell down, kudos as a player, but too many weaknesses around coaching, preparation, recovery, recruitment, developing young players , and just expecting players to deliver because if they wear the hooped jersey they should be better than their opponents most of the time. I would fear RK would be more like NL , with his biggest selling point being his kudos as a player and Irishman , whereas EH will be hungrier to earn his kudos and will get all the "small gains" right.

What have I questioned?

Did I say he was rubbish? No.

Did I say he was overrated? Yes.

Did I support that with facts? Yes.

United went onto have great success after Keane left
- Won 5 of the next 7 league titles
- A CL and another CL final appearance

They only went into decline post Ferguson - Keane was dispensable.

Similarly with Ireland. Very impressive World Cup without him. They only really started to decline as the likes of Duff, Robbie Keane, Given, Dunne etc came to the end.

So how good was he? I'd say someone like Rino Gattuso or Edgar Davids or Diego Simeone is a good yardstick for Keane as a player. Gattuso was probably a more complete footballer

Keane was possibly a top 10 midfielder in the world at his very peak. I'd say that's a fair summation of him.

I'm going to give some names here - Pirlo, Vieira, Makelele, Nedved, Rui Costa, Zidane, Redondo, Ballack, Effenberg, Hagi, Seedorf etc

Would he have been notably any better than Scholes, Giggs, Beckham?

How well did these guys fare outside of the United bubble.

I think it's clear now, maybe it wasn't at the time but the only indispensable part of the United journey was Ferguson. You look at how he made guys like Darren Fletcher and Ji Sung Park vita components in a team. I think it's obvious that a lot of these players owe Alex Ferguson for what they achieved in their career rather than the other way around.

I think the only two United players who have probably went on to really prove themselves elsewhere after leaving Ferguson's United were Ronaldo and Van Nistelrooy.

Have to agree with a lot of what Angelo has said but I think you're undervaluing the leadership Keane provided. He was the one driving that winning culture at united. Teaching the young fellas what it takes and bringing the standards up to a higher level than the teams before him. There is countiess stories from those United players about Keane being the main main and they would have ran through a wall for him. I agree that his footballing ability might not have been the best in the world but his leadership, drive and will to win is what set him apart. This has also proven to be his downfall post playing career as he seems to be frustrated that players don't put the effort into things that he did and then falls out with them all. When he was in decline Fergie made a smart move getting rid of him before he became too much of a disruptive figure.

Questioning Roy Keane as a player. Are you for real?

I think Roy Keane was a brilliant player, although not as good as the likes of Zidane and Scholes. But as I said, it was his competitiveness and leadership that made him so good.