Poppy Watch

[Maguire01]

Quote from: Banana Man on Today at 12:42:16 PM
page 8 of the irish news shows patrick kielty meeting camilla at the irish embassy and he wasn't sporting a poppy, good man paddy

So meeting the royals is grand, but wearing a poppy isn't? Where's the logic there?

Seeing as you have quoted from me i take it you are referring to me, where did I bring the royal family into it? This thread is on poppies, I know you have form of going off on a tangent to deflect away from some other point but this is unreal, you are trying to change the topic that I am discussing

Surely you can see where the reference to the royal family came from(?)
And where's the 'tangent'? Do you have a problem with people discussing lillies, shamrocks, Derry vs Londonderry on this thread as well? Maybe they're "going off on a tangent to reflect away from some other point".

If you want to discuss your beloved stoops meeting the royals then start a new thread on it, that's a whole different discussion

I don't really care who meets the royals.

one could even argue the royals have yet to be mentioned as Camilla is not a royal but a Duchess

'One' could, but why would 'one' bother?
...especially considering she is a royal:
http://www.royal.gov.uk/ThecurrentRoyalFamily/TheDuchessofCornwall/TheDuchessofCornwall.aspx



(And please, find the 'quote' button at the top right of the post you want to quote - it's a lot easier to follow who has said what.)

[Orior]

Great link there Maguire01.

I've just had hours of fun surfing the royals.

The only strange thing about Camila's website is that it does not mention the fact she was screwing Charlie while he was still married to Diana.

[Banana Man]

I don't have a problem with other people going off on a tangent as long as they don't then try to use that tangent to form an argument with myself. Unlike you, you have engaged me by using a tangent. I mentioned Ms Parker Bowles as Patrick Kielty was meeting her, if he had been meeting an African leader for example I wouldn't then have mentioned the ills of African society and done a running commentary on the rights or wrongs based on the Continent's history of genocidal warfare.

As regards using the quote button to make it easier for you, why should I? Do you think I have to mention what I want in a format that is more aesthetically pleasing to you Maguire?

As for the pathetic use of inverted commas around my use of the word one, that says more about your limited education than mine and further debased the value of any further comments you have to make.

What I do know is if you mention SDLP or stoop at all the 'Maguire alarm' goes off and you scramble to justify whatever they done. I would wager if Ms Ritchie told you the sky was green you would believe her. You fail to engage in rationale debate on a given topic unless there is a party line or soundbite to roll out. In a way I envy your blind faith, in another way i seriously pity your complete lack of intelligence. (I think it's pity more than anything I have for you to be honest).

[Jim_Murphy_74]

Poppy Watch?, I'd watch these poppies.............

[gallsman]

I don't have a problem with other people going off on a tangent as long as they don't then try to use that tangent to form an argument with myself. Unlike you, you have engaged me by using a tangent. I mentioned Ms Parker Bowles as Patrick Kielty was meeting her, if he had been meeting an African leader for example I wouldn't then have mentioned the ills of African society and done a running commentary on the rights or wrongs based on the Continent's history of genocidal warfare.

As regards using the quote button to make it easier for you, why should I? Do you think I have to mention what I want in a format that is more aesthetically pleasing to you Maguire?

As for the pathetic use of inverted commas around my use of the word one, that says more about your limited education than mine and further debased the value of any further comments you have to make.

What I do know is if you mention SDLP or stoop at all the 'Maguire alarm' goes off and you scramble to justify whatever they done. I would wager if Ms Ritchie told you the sky was green you would believe her. You fail to engage in rationale debate on a given topic unless there is a party line or soundbite to roll out. In a way I envy your blind faith, in another way i seriously pity your complete lack of intelligence. (I think it's pity more than anything I have for you to be honest).

Pathetic

[Minder]

The whole poppy shite usually doesent bother me but the girl that sits across from me at work has put her poppy, not on her person, but on the top right hand corner of her monitor. So I got my wife to ring my mobile at 11am and put it on loud ringer so I could get out. I got a quare look. Won't be long to Ireland is free with a bucko like me about.

[deiseach]

Just for the record I nor anyone belonging to me ever wore a poppy or ever will (I hope). 

At the risk of sounding all Joan Lingard on it, trust me - it's not a big deal. Given the choice between a poppy wearer or someone who supports Tipperary . . .

[Banana Man]

The whole poppy shite usually doesent bother me but the girl that sits across from me at work has put her poppy, not on her person, but on the top right hand corner of her monitor. So I got my wife to ring my mobile at 11am and put it on loud ringer so I could get out. I got a quare look. Won't be long to Ireland is free with a bucko like me about.

[Banana Man]

« Reply #125 on: Today at 10:56:14 AM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: Banana Man on Today at 09:03:19 AM
I don't have a problem with other people going off on a tangent as long as they don't then try to use that tangent to form an argument with myself. Unlike you, you have engaged me by using a tangent. I mentioned Ms Parker Bowles as Patrick Kielty was meeting her, if he had been meeting an African leader for example I wouldn't then have mentioned the ills of African society and done a running commentary on the rights or wrongs based on the Continent's history of genocidal warfare.

As regards using the quote button to make it easier for you, why should I? Do you think I have to mention what I want in a format that is more aesthetically pleasing to you Maguire?

As for the pathetic use of inverted commas around my use of the word one, that says more about your limited education than mine and further debased the value of any further comments you have to make.

What I do know is if you mention SDLP or stoop at all the 'Maguire alarm' goes off and you scramble to justify whatever they done. I would wager if Ms Ritchie told you the sky was green you would believe her. You fail to engage in rationale debate on a given topic unless there is a party line or soundbite to roll out. In a way I envy your blind faith, in another way i seriously pity your complete lack of intelligence. (I think it's pity more than anything I have for you to be honest).


Pathetic

I tell you one society/club you weren't involved with in Trinity Gallsman and that's the Debating Society 

You just took a block of text and wrote pathetic. What point exactly are you referring to? Perhaps it's the entire block of text. If so would you like to add some rationale as to why you perceive it to be pathetic? Feel free to use 'evidence' (that should be fun).

I bet Nally is jealous that his stalker has replaced him now, perhaps you and Maguire are the same person... I doubt I will get an anwer though as that would require more than 2 words 

[glens abu]

« Reply #125 on: Today at 10:56:14 AM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: Banana Man on Today at 09:03:19 AM
I don't have a problem with other people going off on a tangent as long as they don't then try to use that tangent to form an argument with myself. Unlike you, you have engaged me by using a tangent. I mentioned Ms Parker Bowles as Patrick Kielty was meeting her, if he had been meeting an African leader for example I wouldn't then have mentioned the ills of African society and done a running commentary on the rights or wrongs based on the Continent's history of genocidal warfare.

As regards using the quote button to make it easier for you, why should I? Do you think I have to mention what I want in a format that is more aesthetically pleasing to you Maguire?

As for the pathetic use of inverted commas around my use of the word one, that says more about your limited education than mine and further debased the value of any further comments you have to make.

What I do know is if you mention SDLP or stoop at all the 'Maguire alarm' goes off and you scramble to justify whatever they done. I would wager if Ms Ritchie told you the sky was green you would believe her. You fail to engage in rationale debate on a given topic unless there is a party line or soundbite to roll out. In a way I envy your blind faith, in another way i seriously pity your complete lack of intelligence. (I think it's pity more than anything I have for you to be honest).


Pathetic

I tell you one society/club you weren't involved with in Trinity Gallsman and that's the Debating Society 

You just took a block of text and wrote pathetic. What point exactly are you referring to? Perhaps it's the entire block of text. If so would you like to add some rationale as to why you perceive it to be pathetic? Feel free to use 'evidence' (that should be fun).

I bet Nally is jealous that his stalker has replaced him now, perhaps you and Maguire are the same person... I doubt I will get an anwer though as that would require more than 2 words 

If they would go out and do a bit of work in their constituencies they might stand a better chance of getting elected.

[Applesisapples]

Bit of a joke of with Celtic. Its not like these fans broke a law by protesting against poppy's? It wasn't rascist or anything was it? So on what charge will they be banned? This is the nasty side of the poppy where freedom of choice is removed - for f**k sake the whole teams in scotland have to have it on their jersey for one weekend!

Off course  it was not against the law. But it certainly was in bad taste. Irish Political activists should leave there grapes at the turnstiles. After all Celtic as club practically begging to get into the English Premier league.

As a nordy and a Celtic supporter I do tend to gag a bit particularly with Celtic putting the poppy on the hoops. but when you step back and consider it, the only reason we have a problem with it is because nordy prods made them in to a political symbol of Loyal British Citizenship. But Celtic are a Scottish Club with Irish roots, many players and fans fought and died in the Brittish Army. It is a fact that most states use the cannon fodder and forget them when they are home with limbs missing or mental scars, Vietnam Vets for instance. The poppy appeal has no such political conotations in the UK, many Scottish Celtic fans have no issue with this. How many soldiers really want to be in Iraq or Afghanastan? They are sent there. I am not excusing any of the actions of the Brits in the North, but they were fighting a war and following orders. It is unfortunate that Northern Loyalists have usurped the poppy....We should rise above it. I wouldn't wear one myself but have no problem with someone wearing it for genuine reasons. The Poppy Charity has been very successful at getting many organisations to show support, fair play to them. As regards Celtic can't you just hear that bigoted loyalist gobshite Campbell if they refused? A bigger issue in the new Ireland is the instance of Northern based Sports Organisations (and Rory McIlroy) in using the Loyalist Ulster Flag as a unifying symbol. Sinn Fein and The SDLP seem quite happy with this too.

To issues for the price of one guys!!

[Applesisapples]

I believe the SDLP leader is to wear a poppy on Sunday ... saying nothing, just putting it out there.

Sounds about right. It's not long (March '10) since her party voted for dozens of british army plaques to adorn the walls of Belfast City Hall, including several dedicated to the UDR 

She even has Alex Atwood saying Nortern Ireland instead of his usual Norf!

[Doogie Browser]

Ritchie is going to be the ruination of the stoops.  An awful politician.

[Clown]

Why Celtic fans won't join in the poppy parade

The poppy is a political symbol. So why are players and fans being told to conform with the idea of wearing one?

Anyone who knows the history and traditions of Celtic Football Club would not have been too surprised to see a group of fans unfurling a huge anti-war banner at the team's ground last Saturday.

The banner, which read, 'Your deeds they would shame all the devils in hell. Ireland, Iraq, Afghanistan. No blood-stained poppy on our hoops', was a protest against the club's decision to mark Remembrance Day by getting the players to wear poppies on their famous green and white hooped jerseys and hold a minute's silence before the game.

However the club's reaction to the protesters shows just how far Celtic's anti-establishment roots have been officially ditched by those running it. John Reid, club chairman and former Labour home secretary, has pledged to 'hunt down' this 'hate-mob' and ban them from Celtic Park for life. Others have described the protesting fans as 'shameful yobs and louts' and one MP, Gregory Campbell, has argued the club needs to go further to 'lance this boil'.

The demonisation and vilification of a group of people who staged a peaceful political protest would be shocking in any circumstances, but it is even more so at Celtic. To many Celtic fans, the history and ethos of the club is not only Irish, but is also closely linked to the struggle against British rule and militarism in Ireland. The club's origins can be traced to post-famine Ireland when it was founded in 1888 by the immigrant Irish priest, Brother Walfred, to raise money to feed the often-destitute Irish of Glasgow's east end. These overwhelmingly Catholic Irish suffered not only poverty but widespread discrimination. The sod of turf that sits in the centre circle of Celtic Park was planted by Michael Davitt, himself a famous Irish Republican activist who fought against British rule in Ireland.


The protest banner at Celtic Park

Throughout the 30 years of the conflict in Northern Ireland, from the late 60s to the late 90s, a significant section of Celtic fans openly supported – or at least quietly sympathised with – the IRA and Celtic games featured more Irish rebel songs than football chants. While all football derbies arouse strong passions, Celtic-Rangers games during the 'Troubles' were famously tense with boat loads of hard-line loyalists and republicans arriving from Belfast to play out their political enmities on the terraces.

Of course, all of this has changed as the peace process has brought violent conflict in Ireland to an end and seen republicans and loyalists sharing power. A new generation of homegrown Celtic fans don't mix politics and football in the way their parents did, and for many of these fans wearing a poppy is no more political than wearing a pink ribbon in support of those who have fought breast cancer or a red ribbon to remember the problem of HIV/AIDS.

But there remain a significant group of Celtic fans for whom the poppy does have meaning. For them, the officially sanctioned Remembrance Day and the wearing of the poppy represent the glorification of imperialist wars in which tens of thousands of young men were sent to their deaths by political leaders intent on defending Britain's dominant position in the world. No one watching Remembrance Sunday on television every year can be in any doubt that the laying of wreaths by the royal family, alongside the presence of the country's political leaders and the military top brass, mixes remembering the dead with an official display of support for Britain's military adventures abroad – past and present.

But whether you make a personal decision to wear a poppy or not is not the issue here. Celtic fans know to their cost that the clampdown on fans unfurling a banner is only the latest in a long series of restrictions on any expressions of political opinions by fans. Under the guise of campaigns against sectarianism and to 'kick racism out of football', Celtic fans have already faced a bewildering barrage of bans and rules proscribing what they can say, sing or chant before, during and after watching their team. Yet the same club that has done so much to cleanse Celtic of any whiff of politics has now chosen to bring politics onto the pitch by telling players and fans to observe the official commemoration of the UK's war dead and wear a poppy on their jerseys.



The latest controversy is less about the poppy than the degrading illiberal treatment meted out to a section of football fans for daring to challenge the football hierarchy. For more than 80 years the poppy and football were separate. Now, when the football authorities decide to mix politics with football, those fans who object are vilified and banned. Anyone who cares about civil liberties and freedom of speech should be extremely alarmed by the attack on both by those running football in Scotland.

Jon Snow, Channel 4 news broadcaster, has been mocked this week for re-staging his annual outburst against 'poppy fascism' in protest at the pressure put on TV presenters to wear a poppy. (Snow is on shaky ground having made a song-and-dance about his right to wear a white wristband in support of Make Poverty History back in 2005, with the implication that others should be doing the same.) But I think Snow reacts every year not for effect but because each year the expectation to conform seems to spread. As well as poppies at football games, this year for the first time the traffic lights in central London will stay on red for several minutes and busy Londoners will be asked to stay quiet and still as a section of the city grinds to a halt.

Many people who wear poppies do so as a genuine sign of respect and gratitude to those who sacrificed everything for the greater good while many others wear it as an open expression of support for Britain's armed forces. There are also people who wear the poppy simply because they are expected to. But some of us refuse to wear a poppy on principle because we don't support Britain's military adventures past or present and choose to remember those who died in wars in ways and at times of our own choosing. Whichever position you take, the poppy is a political emblem and it diminishes politics and our political opinions to pretend otherwise.

We are repeatedly told on Remembrance Sunday that those who have fallen gave their lives that we should be free – sadly that freedom has been denied to those fans who expressed their opinions at Celtic Park last week.

[glens abu]

Why Celtic fans won't join in the poppy parade

The poppy is a political symbol. So why are players and fans being told to conform with the idea of wearing one?

Anyone who knows the history and traditions of Celtic Football Club would not have been too surprised to see a group of fans unfurling a huge anti-war banner at the team's ground last Saturday.

The banner, which read, 'Your deeds they would shame all the devils in hell. Ireland, Iraq, Afghanistan. No blood-stained poppy on our hoops', was a protest against the club's decision to mark Remembrance Day by getting the players to wear poppies on their famous green and white hooped jerseys and hold a minute's silence before the game.

However the club's reaction to the protesters shows just how far Celtic's anti-establishment roots have been officially ditched by those running it. John Reid, club chairman and former Labour home secretary, has pledged to 'hunt down' this 'hate-mob' and ban them from Celtic Park for life. Others have described the protesting fans as 'shameful yobs and louts' and one MP, Gregory Campbell, has argued the club needs to go further to 'lance this boil'.

The demonisation and vilification of a group of people who staged a peaceful political protest would be shocking in any circumstances, but it is even more so at Celtic. To many Celtic fans, the history and ethos of the club is not only Irish, but is also closely linked to the struggle against British rule and militarism in Ireland. The club's origins can be traced to post-famine Ireland when it was founded in 1888 by the immigrant Irish priest, Brother Walfred, to raise money to feed the often-destitute Irish of Glasgow's east end. These overwhelmingly Catholic Irish suffered not only poverty but widespread discrimination. The sod of turf that sits in the centre circle of Celtic Park was planted by Michael Davitt, himself a famous Irish Republican activist who fought against British rule in Ireland.


The protest banner at Celtic Park

Throughout the 30 years of the conflict in Northern Ireland, from the late 60s to the late 90s, a significant section of Celtic fans openly supported – or at least quietly sympathised with – the IRA and Celtic games featured more Irish rebel songs than football chants. While all football derbies arouse strong passions, Celtic-Rangers games during the 'Troubles' were famously tense with boat loads of hard-line loyalists and republicans arriving from Belfast to play out their political enmities on the terraces.

Of course, all of this has changed as the peace process has brought violent conflict in Ireland to an end and seen republicans and loyalists sharing power. A new generation of homegrown Celtic fans don't mix politics and football in the way their parents did, and for many of these fans wearing a poppy is no more political than wearing a pink ribbon in support of those who have fought breast cancer or a red ribbon to remember the problem of HIV/AIDS.

But there remain a significant group of Celtic fans for whom the poppy does have meaning. For them, the officially sanctioned Remembrance Day and the wearing of the poppy represent the glorification of imperialist wars in which tens of thousands of young men were sent to their deaths by political leaders intent on defending Britain's dominant position in the world. No one watching Remembrance Sunday on television every year can be in any doubt that the laying of wreaths by the royal family, alongside the presence of the country's political leaders and the military top brass, mixes remembering the dead with an official display of support for Britain's military adventures abroad – past and present.

But whether you make a personal decision to wear a poppy or not is not the issue here. Celtic fans know to their cost that the clampdown on fans unfurling a banner is only the latest in a long series of restrictions on any expressions of political opinions by fans. Under the guise of campaigns against sectarianism and to 'kick racism out of football', Celtic fans have already faced a bewildering barrage of bans and rules proscribing what they can say, sing or chant before, during and after watching their team. Yet the same club that has done so much to cleanse Celtic of any whiff of politics has now chosen to bring politics onto the pitch by telling players and fans to observe the official commemoration of the UK's war dead and wear a poppy on their jerseys.



The latest controversy is less about the poppy than the degrading illiberal treatment meted out to a section of football fans for daring to challenge the football hierarchy. For more than 80 years the poppy and football were separate. Now, when the football authorities decide to mix politics with football, those fans who object are vilified and banned. Anyone who cares about civil liberties and freedom of speech should be extremely alarmed by the attack on both by those running football in Scotland.

Jon Snow, Channel 4 news broadcaster, has been mocked this week for re-staging his annual outburst against 'poppy fascism' in protest at the pressure put on TV presenters to wear a poppy. (Snow is on shaky ground having made a song-and-dance about his right to wear a white wristband in support of Make Poverty History back in 2005, with the implication that others should be doing the same.) But I think Snow reacts every year not for effect but because each year the expectation to conform seems to spread. As well as poppies at football games, this year for the first time the traffic lights in central London will stay on red for several minutes and busy Londoners will be asked to stay quiet and still as a section of the city grinds to a halt.

Many people who wear poppies do so as a genuine sign of respect and gratitude to those who sacrificed everything for the greater good while many others wear it as an open expression of support for Britain's armed forces. There are also people who wear the poppy simply because they are expected to. But some of us refuse to wear a poppy on principle because we don't support Britain's military adventures past or present and choose to remember those who died in wars in ways and at times of our own choosing. Whichever position you take, the poppy is a political emblem and it diminishes politics and our political opinions to pretend otherwise.

We are repeatedly told on Remembrance Sunday that those who have fallen gave their lives that we should be free – sadly that freedom has been denied to those fans who expressed their opinions at Celtic Park last week.

+1 very well said clown,even though I don't support Celtic or have any interest in Celtic i totally agree with your sentiments.