Armagh Club football & hurling

[general_lee]

Does a reserve league provide an adequate programme of games for some fella who wants to train consistently and play football every week?

The same lad can play local soccer or rugby at whatever level is appropriate and be guaranteed a game every Saturday for 8/7 months.

The concept of a reserve league given the fella above 10 or a dozen games across the whole season is a couple of generations out of date. We need to provide that fella and fellas like him a game most weeks across the season the same as every other player.

This is a huge contributor to drop out after minor.

The straight forward answer is no it doesn't. What is being proposed by some on here doesn't really solve anything, it just prevents clubs with the resources being able to provide regular, competitive football.

2nds teams have been allowed to enter the league and championship structures for decades and it did zero harm whatsoever. Cross II won it 2002 and CE II 21 years later. Doubt anyone was alive or remembers the win previous? (Or maybe they do).

Reserve football in that same time has been tinkered with and altered and hasn't really provided the desired effect.

Just let 2nds teams enter the leagues and championship structures and let them find their level, like it happens in other counties, instead of creating new competitions, more admin, etc etc

That's why I've suggested they be allowed to enter league football if they believe they have the playing resources to sustain that level of commitment. Lissummon's proposal will last a few years before seconds teams are permanently excluded from league football, which would be a shame in my opinion.

Regarding championship football, I've always believed they should play in a reserve championship. I've played in teams that have had success against seconds teams over the years, as well as lost to them, both in league and championship, and my motivation has nothing to do with giving my own club a "better chance" of success. I just believe the junior championship should be for junior level clubs, rather than the reserve side of a senior club.

Lissummon's regressive proposal might (in their view) help sustain playing numbers in smaller clubs but will be at the expense of playing numbers in so-called bigger clubs.

I'm sure St Peter's are delighted they took the gamble last year, they're hardly world-beaters at senior level but realised they needed to provide meaningful football for their playing members. To the best of my knowledge their 2nds is ran separate from the seniors and is made up of mainly older players or lads on the fringes who have stepped away from senior football in recent years.

Just because they're members of a senior club doesn't make them senior level players; and players that fall in the above category shouldn't be excluded by virtue of what club they're from. Shoehorning them into some Junior B championship is misguided and does not solve the issue.

[general_lee]

Yeah think I like that option. What about the years Cross are up in intermediate with the seconds team? Clann Eireann wont be going to junior any time soon either.

Do we just leave them in the intermediate championship to keep the numbers right?

The way Clann Eireann are going it honestly isn't ridiculous to think they could either win the 2a league or intermediate championship within the next few years, they beat a decent Keady team this year and beat Pearse Og's who were lot of peoples favourites for the whole thing and 2a league winners.

I'm curious to know how Clann Eireann seconds will go over the next few years.  They seem flush with talent in the senior and junior teams at present but you would expect some of the junior players to move to the senior eventually.  There is a lot of youth coming through of course, which will supplement the seconds, but the pick of the youth would go straight to seniors each year surely?

I've been involved in club football in Armagh for the past 25 years give or take.  At a point in time around the mid 2000's the reserve league/championship was fit for purpose and competitive (I recall Clan na Gael being particularly strong).  For whatever reason, it began to dwindle away.  Unfulfilled fixtures, teams unable to field, referee's not showing up etc.

The reserve system is an afterthought to most clubs to be honest.  Dress it up whatever way you want, the same issues will persist.

With a minor championship winning side to blood, you'd imagine they'll consolidate their intermediate status for another year or two. I think they'll eventually yo-yo between intermediate and junior like Cross II.

Normally clubs will want to expose their best youth to senior football at the earliest opportunity, so one or two from their minor-winning side might be invited straight onto the senior panel.

It's bewildering to think that some people are of the view that some of these players should be limited to only ever playing reserve competitions.

[Armagh18]

Yeah think I like that option. What about the years Cross are up in intermediate with the seconds team? Clann Eireann wont be going to junior any time soon either.

Do we just leave them in the intermediate championship to keep the numbers right?

The way Clann Eireann are going it honestly isn't ridiculous to think they could either win the 2a league or intermediate championship within the next few years, they beat a decent Keady team this year and beat Pearse Og's who were lot of peoples favourites for the whole thing and 2a league winners.

I'm curious to know how Clann Eireann seconds will go over the next few years.  They seem flush with talent in the senior and junior teams at present but you would expect some of the junior players to move to the senior eventually.  There is a lot of youth coming through of course, which will supplement the seconds, but the pick of the youth would go straight to seniors each year surely?

I've been involved in club football in Armagh for the past 25 years give or take.  At a point in time around the mid 2000's the reserve league/championship was fit for purpose and competitive (I recall Clan na Gael being particularly strong).  For whatever reason, it began to dwindle away.  Unfulfilled fixtures, teams unable to field, referee's not showing up etc.

The reserve system is an afterthought to most clubs to be honest.  Dress it up whatever way you want, the same issues will persist.

I'd say unless a lad is exceptional coming out of minors and well developed enough at 18, he'll do a year or 2 with the seconds team? Big step from minors to seniors, especially at 1a level.

[ranch]

Does a reserve league provide an adequate programme of games for some fella who wants to train consistently and play football every week?

The same lad can play local soccer or rugby at whatever level is appropriate and be guaranteed a game every Saturday for 8/7 months.

The concept of a reserve league given the fella above 10 or a dozen games across the whole season is a couple of generations out of date. We need to provide that fella and fellas like him a game most weeks across the season the same as every other player.

This is a huge contributor to drop out after minor.

The straight forward answer is no it doesn't. What is being proposed by some on here doesn't really solve anything, it just prevents clubs with the resources being able to provide regular, competitive football.

2nds teams have been allowed to enter the league and championship structures for decades and it did zero harm whatsoever. Cross II won it 2002 and CE II 21 years later. Doubt anyone was alive or remembers the win previous? (Or maybe they do).

Reserve football in that same time has been tinkered with and altered and hasn't really provided the desired effect.

Just let 2nds teams enter the leagues and championship structures and let them find their level, like it happens in other counties, instead of creating new competitions, more admin, etc etc

That's why I've suggested they be allowed to enter league football if they believe they have the playing resources to sustain that level of commitment. Lissummon's proposal will last a few years before seconds teams are permanently excluded from league football, which would be a shame in my opinion.

Regarding championship football, I've always believed they should play in a reserve championship. I've played in teams that have had success against seconds teams over the years, as well as lost to them, both in league and championship, and my motivation has nothing to do with giving my own club a "better chance" of success. I just believe the junior championship should be for junior level clubs, rather than the reserve side of a senior club.

Lissummon's regressive proposal might (in their view) help sustain playing numbers in smaller clubs but will be at the expense of playing numbers in so-called bigger clubs.

I'm sure St Peter's are delighted they took the gamble last year, they're hardly world-beaters at senior level but realised they needed to provide meaningful football for their playing members. To the best of my knowledge their 2nds is ran separate from the seniors and is made up of mainly older players or lads on the fringes who have stepped away from senior football in recent years.

Just because they're members of a senior club doesn't make them senior level players; and players that fall in the above category shouldn't be excluded by virtue of what club they're from. Shoehorning them into some Junior B championship is misguided and does not solve the issue.

That's why they play in what is essentially a reserve team, and what would be a reserve championship.

I agree with you on the current proposal for a junior b championship, it won't work longer term.

[general_lee]

That's why they play in what is essentially a reserve team, and what would be a reserve championship.

And restricted to only ever playing reserve football, despite having the ability to play at a higher level.

[ranch]

That's why they play in what is essentially a reserve team, and what would be a reserve championship.

And restricted to only ever playing reserve football, despite having the ability to play at a higher level.

Far from it. They'd be playing league football in the all county league system, if their club chose that route. This would be a route to playing in as high a division as possible.  Championship would be reserve however as they're reserve teams.

If they have the ability to play at a higher level then they might find their way on to their club's senior team. Surely that would be the aim for some of them at least.

As for the junior championship being a higher level than a properly run reserve championship, that would be debatable.  Both championships would have strong teams, but also weaker ones as well.

[Armagh18]

That's why they play in what is essentially a reserve team, and what would be a reserve championship.

And restricted to only ever playing reserve football, despite having the ability to play at a higher level.

Far from it. They'd be playing league football in the all county league system, if their club chose that route. This would be a route to playing in as high a division as possible.  Championship would be reserve however as they're reserve teams.

If they have the ability to play at a higher level then they might find their way on to their club's senior team. Surely that would be the aim for some of them at least.

As for the junior championship being a higher level than a properly run reserve championship, that would be debatable.  Both championships would have strong teams, but also weaker ones as well.

Not sure where I land on this whole thing to be honest, dont know if there is a perfect solution or not and any suggestions you can make an argument against them, but thinking that allowing seconds teams into the all county league and putting them into a separate reserve championship is the best one.

[general_lee]

That's why they play in what is essentially a reserve team, and what would be a reserve championship.

And restricted to only ever playing reserve football, despite having the ability to play at a higher level.

Far from it. They'd be playing league football in the all county league system, if their club chose that route. This would be a route to playing in as high a division as possible.  Championship would be reserve however as they're reserve teams.

If they have the ability to play at a higher level then they might find their way on to their club's senior team. Surely that would be the aim for some of them at least.

As for the junior championship being a higher level than a properly run reserve championship, that would be debatable.  Both championships would have strong teams, but also weaker ones as well.

Aye, individuals might experience senior football at some stage in their careers but then again they might not - either way that's irrelevant. I fail to see the point in allowing 2nd teams to find their level in the league but then banning them from doing the same at championship level. All a bit nonsensical to me.

It is academic at this stage, hopefully clubs 2nds reap the benefits of playing league football and make the most of their circumstances.

[DuffleKing]

Some good discussion here but i'll repeat again that thinking the Reserve league and championship is sufficient to provide regular football for lads who want to train and play consistently is miles out of date.

Society has changed and so has our obligations to playing members who pay their membership the same as the perceived best players in a particular club.

Going forward it may be more leagues and more championships if second teams are added and you play at the level your team demonstrates it's capable of through promotion and relegation.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Some good discussion here but i'll repeat again that thinking the Reserve league and championship is sufficient to provide regular football for lads who want to train and play consistently is miles out of date.

But this is a very fluid situation, and the nature of the changes that have taken place in recent weeks means that what once would have been deemed unrealistic in terms of providing football to all (a Reserve League), could actually very soon become once again a meaningful option. If we have 8 / 9 / 10 Reserve Teams being put forward for the All County league, then why can there not be an All County Reserve League? 

[general_lee]

Going forward it may be more leagues and more championships if second teams are added and you play at the level your team demonstrates it's capable of through promotion and relegation.

That would make far too much sense. A Division 4/Junior B championship for any increase in teams. Allow promotion/relegation for all teams. Ah well.

If we have 8 / 9 / 10 Reserve Teams being put forward for the All County league, then why can there not be an All County Reserve League? 

I've already made this point, it's a fairly basic principle and CE and Cross have demonstrated it: if clubs' 2nds teams are good enough to reach intermediate semifinals and compete at intermediate level, they should be allowed to and not perennially confined to a 10 team reserve league/championship on the basis that they're not a first team. 

[DuffleKing]

It would need to be something different for a variety of reasons.

One is that lads who don't play senior football Friday can play Reserves the next Wednesday - you're depriving lads of football with that.
Another is that Wednesday night matches are not a runner for big parts of the season for lads working in Dublin, Belfast, etc. and the nature of midweek games means there is nothing for those lads at the weekend then.

All able to be sorted but not if we're stuck with what we think of as the Reserve League.

All of this complicates things when it's not complicated at all. Just create divisions - like the Ulster Rugby club leagues for example - and teams find their level. Play and compete at your level. Gerrymandering divisions and structures to pander to people's ego sensitivities is bananas.

[statto]

It would need to be something different for a variety of reasons.

One is that lads who don't play senior football Friday can play Reserves the next Wednesday - you're depriving lads of football with that.
Another is that Wednesday night matches are not a runner for big parts of the season for lads working in Dublin, Belfast, etc. and the nature of midweek games means there is nothing for those lads at the weekend then.

All able to be sorted but not if we're stuck with what we think of as the Reserve League.

All of this complicates things when it's not complicated at all. Just create divisions - like the Ulster Rugby club leagues for example - and teams find their level. Play and compete at your level. Gerrymandering divisions and structures to pander to people's ego sensitivities is bananas.

Is looking at having 10/11 named players who can't play reserves a way of helping? 15 players are automatically ruled out under current eligibility rules which is why smaller clubs have struggled to fulfil games.  That and the Wednesday/Friday turnaround. Maghery, for example, senior county champions twice in last 10 years are amalgamated at quite a few underage groups so playing numbers in longer run will be impacted.   Armaghs success last year will hopefully improve playing numbers over a longer period of time. 

[Rufus T Firefly]

If we have 8 / 9 / 10 Reserve Teams being put forward for the All County league, then why can there not be an All County Reserve League? 

I've already made this point, it's a fairly basic principle and CE and Cross have demonstrated it: if clubs' 2nds teams are good enough to reach intermediate semifinals and compete at intermediate level, they should be allowed to and not perennially confined to a 10 team reserve league/championship on the basis that they're not a first team. 

Who is to say that their presence in a Reserve League won't be the catalyst for improvement across Reserve football overall which in turn could lead to more Clubs putting in teams and possibly a two tier Reserve League in the future?

[tonto1888]

My club is Clann Eireann. I'm a bit biased but I don't see a reason to change it as it is.
As it happens, I won a reserve championship, of B as it was back then, many years ago and enjoyed it. Had I had the chance to play in the junior league and championship, I would have bit your arm off for it. People saying a junior championship doesn't mean that much to a senior club are mistaken.