Armagh Club football & hurling

[general_lee]

if you've the resources for another team then there should be a reserve championship that caters to that - I don't mean the current reserve championship that is just run off on weeknights, but a proper one that runs alongside the senior, intermediate and junior championships.

Surely this is what this new Junior B Championship is?

You know full well that it's far from what I've suggested. A proper reserve championship system for all reserve teams is certainly not what the new junior b will be.

All except three, and what you want isn't really viable either.

[ranch]

if you've the resources for another team then there should be a reserve championship that caters to that - I don't mean the current reserve championship that is just run off on weeknights, but a proper one that runs alongside the senior, intermediate and junior championships.

Surely this is what this new Junior B Championship is?

You know full well that it's far from what I've suggested. A proper reserve championship system for all reserve teams is certainly not what the new junior b will be.

All except three, and what you want isn't really viable either.

All except three - so definitely not what I suggested. It's not viable because it hasn't been introduced.
Clubs will adapt to whatever system is voted in, that doesn't mean I have to like or agree with the current set up.

[Rufus T Firefly]

nor is it the fault of the CEs or Cross of this world

No it's not, and yet I see them both doing very well out of the current arrangement.

which isnt a problem

...for Clann Eireann and Cross.

It clearly is though for many of the Junior Teams that came together to put forward this motion at Convention, which is what has prompted this discussion.

To me it is obvious that there needs to be a Reserve League to cater for Reserve Teams, and this issue will surely come to a head over the next 12 / 24 months if these trends persist. 

[DuffleKing]

Does a reserve league provide an adequate programme of games for some fella who wants to train consistently and play football every week?

The same lad can play local soccer or rugby at whatever level is appropriate and be guaranteed a game every Saturday for 8/7 months.

The concept of a reserve league given the fella above 10 or a dozen games across the whole season is a couple of generations out of date. We need to provide that fella and fellas like him a game most weeks across the season the same as every other player.

This is a huge contributor to drop out after minor.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Does a reserve league provide an adequate programme of games for some fella who wants to train consistently and play football every week?

The same lad can play local soccer or rugby at whatever level is appropriate and be guaranteed a game every Saturday for 8/7 months.

The concept of a reserve league given the fella above 10 or a dozen games across the whole season is a couple of generations out of date. We need to provide that fella and fellas like him a game most weeks across the season the same as every other player.

This is a huge contributor to drop out after minor.

A properly run Reserve League will do just that. In my opinion, we as a County up to now haven't been able to do that, but I feel now - given the number of Clubs committing to fielding a second team - that there may be the possibility of a viable / competitive Reserve League of 8 / 9 / 10 teams, that can provide what you have outlined.

To my mind, the Lisummon proposal is a sticking plaster for what is an underlying issue, that is not going to go away. Their proposal - which I have sympathy for - merely kicks the can down the road a bit. I stated that at Convention.

Incidentally, have a look at the nature of some of the disparaging comments made about this issue and the concerns raised by Junior Clubs. It's no wonder many contributors choose to be discreet about their own Club loyalties, on this site.

[Armagh18]

Does a reserve league provide an adequate programme of games for some fella who wants to train consistently and play football every week?

The same lad can play local soccer or rugby at whatever level is appropriate and be guaranteed a game every Saturday for 8/7 months.

The concept of a reserve league given the fella above 10 or a dozen games across the whole season is a couple of generations out of date. We need to provide that fella and fellas like him a game most weeks across the season the same as every other player.

This is a huge contributor to drop out after minor.

Bit of a chicken and egg thing as well- if there was less drop out after minor, more clubs could enter reserve teams that are of a relatively decent standard, games would be competitive and would help the whole thing.

I think a couple of clubs putting in an amalgamation reserve teams would work. A lot of clubs probably have 8/9 lads who are looking for football but wouldn't have 15 so are maybe pulling men out of the house to make up the numbers or games are being cancelled. If you'd 8/9 lads from 2 clubs who were taking things seriously surely you'd get a decent reserve team?

[Armagh18]

Does a reserve league provide an adequate programme of games for some fella who wants to train consistently and play football every week?

The same lad can play local soccer or rugby at whatever level is appropriate and be guaranteed a game every Saturday for 8/7 months.

The concept of a reserve league given the fella above 10 or a dozen games across the whole season is a couple of generations out of date. We need to provide that fella and fellas like him a game most weeks across the season the same as every other player.

This is a huge contributor to drop out after minor.

A properly run Reserve League will do just that. In my opinion, we as a County up to now haven't been able to do that, but I feel now - given the number of Clubs committing to fielding a second team - that there may be the possibility of a viable / competitive Reserve League of 8 / 9 / 10 teams, that can provide what you have outlined.

To my mind, the Lisummon proposal is a sticking plaster for what is an underlying issue, that is not going to go away. Their proposal - which I have sympathy for - merely kicks the can down the road a bit. I stated that at Convention.

Incidentally, have a look at the nature of some of the disparaging comments made about this issue and the concerns raised by Junior Clubs. It's no wonder many contributors choose to be discreet about their own Club loyalties, on this site.

Lissummons proposal is probably only a stepping stone to the full split, a proper reserve system would need sorted first. Agree that some of the comments here and elsewhere were poor form regarding the struggles of junior clubs.

[ranch]

Have to agree with Rufus here. The Lissummon proposal is only a sticking plaster and to be fair to them, it did try to include seconds teams to an extent. But the possible addition of another 4 or 5 seconds teams to the junior championship was probably a step too far.
I come from a junior club myself and have consistently stated that I like to see seconds teams enter all county league football a it's giving lads consistent games and keeping them a part of their club. I've always had an issue with them entering the junior championship however as it should be for junior clubs. Seconds teams are reserve teams in all but name and should play in a reserve championship.

[Throw ball]

Have to agree with Rufus here. The Lissummon proposal is only a sticking plaster and to be fair to them, it did try to include seconds teams to an extent. But the possible addition of another 4 or 5 seconds teams to the junior championship was probably a step too far.
I come from a junior club myself and have consistently stated that I like to see seconds teams enter all county league football a it's giving lads consistent games and keeping them a part of their club. I've always had an issue with them entering the junior championship however as it should be for junior clubs. Seconds teams are reserve teams in all but name and should play in a reserve championship.

I'll have to add I agree completely here. The GAA is a ' for all' organisation. As much as junior clubs deserve a proper target to play for to sustain them bigger clubs need to provide football for as many playing age players as possible. For example would it have been possible for Clann Eireann to have developed so successfully without giving young players the chance to play football past minor? Playing seconds teams in the league with a separate championship seems the most viable option.

[Armagh18]

Yeah think I like that option. What about the years Cross are up in intermediate with the seconds team? Clann Eireann wont be going to junior any time soon either.

Do we just leave them in the intermediate championship to keep the numbers right?

The way Clann Eireann are going it honestly isn't ridiculous to think they could either win the 2a league or intermediate championship within the next few years, they beat a decent Keady team this year and beat Pearse Og's who were lot of peoples favourites for the whole thing and 2a league winners.

[ranch]

The system I'd prefer is as follows:

We've 44 clubs (minus the 5 seconds teams in the setup last year - Cross II, CE II, Killeavy II, Madden II, St Peter's II).
12 clubs in senior, intermediate and junior championship.
8 clubs in junior B.

Senior/intermediate/junior
4 groups of 3 (one home game/one away game). Top 2 into quarter finals. Bottom clubs in senior/intermediate/junior enter relegation playoffs.
There would be no seeding if it was up to me.

Junior B
2 groups of 4-Top teams in group into semi finals. 2nd/3rd place enter quarter finals.

Winner of championships move up a grade to replace the relegated team.

League football
Last season we'd 49 teams, including seconds teams - 4 divisions of 10 and bottom division of 9. Could do a straight 2 up/2 down or introduce play offs, finals etc.
The league system would be unlinked from the championships.

Reserve championship
Seconds teams would be in the Premier reserve championship along with other reserve teams who were deemed strong enough to make up an 8/12 team championship.
Other reserve sides could enter cup, shield and plate competitions (could make the bottom grades 13 a side with roll on/roll off subs if deemed appropriate).
The premier reserve grade would be played at the same time as the main championship grades with its final the curtain raiser to the senior final.

[general_lee]

Does a reserve league provide an adequate programme of games for some fella who wants to train consistently and play football every week?

The same lad can play local soccer or rugby at whatever level is appropriate and be guaranteed a game every Saturday for 8/7 months.

The concept of a reserve league given the fella above 10 or a dozen games across the whole season is a couple of generations out of date. We need to provide that fella and fellas like him a game most weeks across the season the same as every other player.

This is a huge contributor to drop out after minor.

The straight forward answer is no it doesn't. What is being proposed by some on here doesn't really solve anything, it just prevents clubs with the resources being able to provide regular, competitive football.

2nds teams have been allowed to enter the league and championship structures for decades and it did zero harm whatsoever. Cross II won it 2002 and CE II 21 years later. Doubt anyone was alive or remembers the win previous? (Or maybe they do).

Reserve football in that same time has been tinkered with and altered and hasn't really provided the desired effect.

Just let 2nds teams enter the leagues and championship structures and let them find their level, like it happens in other counties, instead of creating new competitions, more admin, etc etc

[ranch]

Does a reserve league provide an adequate programme of games for some fella who wants to train consistently and play football every week?

The same lad can play local soccer or rugby at whatever level is appropriate and be guaranteed a game every Saturday for 8/7 months.

The concept of a reserve league given the fella above 10 or a dozen games across the whole season is a couple of generations out of date. We need to provide that fella and fellas like him a game most weeks across the season the same as every other player.

This is a huge contributor to drop out after minor.

The straight forward answer is no it doesn't. What is being proposed by some on here doesn't really solve anything, it just prevents clubs with the resources being able to provide regular, competitive football.

2nds teams have been allowed to enter the league and championship structures for decades and it did zero harm whatsoever. Cross II won it 2002 and CE II 21 years later. Doubt anyone was alive or remembers the win previous? (Or maybe they do).

Reserve football in that same time has been tinkered with and altered and hasn't really provided the desired effect.

Just let 2nds teams enter the leagues and championship structures and let them find their level, like it happens in other counties, instead of creating new competitions, more admin, etc etc

That's why I've suggested they be allowed to enter league football if they believe they have the playing resources to sustain that level of commitment. Lissummon's proposal will last a few years before seconds teams are permanently excluded from league football, which would be a shame in my opinion.

Regarding championship football, I've always believed they should play in a reserve championship. I've played in teams that have had success against seconds teams over the years, as well as lost to them, both in league and championship, and my motivation has nothing to do with giving my own club a "better chance" of success. I just believe the junior championship should be for junior level clubs, rather than the reserve side of a senior club.

[Ethan Tremblay]

Yeah think I like that option. What about the years Cross are up in intermediate with the seconds team? Clann Eireann wont be going to junior any time soon either.

Do we just leave them in the intermediate championship to keep the numbers right?

The way Clann Eireann are going it honestly isn't ridiculous to think they could either win the 2a league or intermediate championship within the next few years, they beat a decent Keady team this year and beat Pearse Og's who were lot of peoples favourites for the whole thing and 2a league winners.

I'm curious to know how Clann Eireann seconds will go over the next few years.  They seem flush with talent in the senior and junior teams at present but you would expect some of the junior players to move to the senior eventually.  There is a lot of youth coming through of course, which will supplement the seconds, but the pick of the youth would go straight to seniors each year surely?

I've been involved in club football in Armagh for the past 25 years give or take.  At a point in time around the mid 2000's the reserve league/championship was fit for purpose and competitive (I recall Clan na Gael being particularly strong).  For whatever reason, it began to dwindle away.  Unfulfilled fixtures, teams unable to field, referee's not showing up etc.

The reserve system is an afterthought to most clubs to be honest.  Dress it up whatever way you want, the same issues will persist.

[lurganblue]

Yeah think I like that option. What about the years Cross are up in intermediate with the seconds team? Clann Eireann wont be going to junior any time soon either.

Do we just leave them in the intermediate championship to keep the numbers right?

The way Clann Eireann are going it honestly isn't ridiculous to think they could either win the 2a league or intermediate championship within the next few years, they beat a decent Keady team this year and beat Pearse Og's who were lot of peoples favourites for the whole thing and 2a league winners.

I'm curious to know how Clann Eireann seconds will go over the next few years.  They seem flush with talent in the senior and junior teams at present but you would expect some of the junior players to move to the senior eventually.  There is a lot of youth coming through of course, which will supplement the seconds, but the pick of the youth would go straight to seniors each year surely?

I've been involved in club football in Armagh for the past 25 years give or take.  At a point in time around the mid 2000's the reserve league/championship was fit for purpose and competitive (I recall Clan na Gael being particularly strong).  For whatever reason, it began to dwindle away.  Unfulfilled fixtures, teams unable to field, referee's not showing up etc.

The reserve system is an afterthought to most clubs to be honest.  Dress it up whatever way you want, the same issues will persist.

Yes we were, with a good few leagues and championships won in that time. That was a bit of perfect storm, with some talented young players with senior aspirations but also some 30+ year olds who had stepped away from Senior football.  The current setup of 2nds teams is fulfilling a different demand now though.  That team of ours would have had little interest in the commitment required to enter into the junior leagues.

The dynamic has changed now.  The volume of players in clubs like CE, Cross etc who want to commit to playing committed and proper competition, is on the rise.

I hope this can be resolved to suit all parties and players arent lost to other sports.