Down Club Hurling & Football

Started by Lecale2, November 10, 2006, 12:06:55 AM

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manwithnoplan

Quote from: Mourne Red on February 10, 2022, 08:46:32 PM
Quote from: Truth hurts on February 08, 2022, 08:44:48 AM
                                                   
                                                   
Division One               Division Two         Division Three         Division Four                  
12 Teams               10 Teams         12 Teams         9 Teams                  
Cumann Pheadair Naofa               Longstone         Shamrocks         Kilclief Ben Dearg GAC                  
Clonduff GAC               Glenn         Ballymartin         Dundrum GAC                  
Mayobridge               AN Riocht         Tullylish         Ardglass                  
Burren GAC               Darragh Cross         Drumgath         East Belfast                  
Carryduff               Bredagh         Atticall         St Colman's Drumaness                  
Kilcoo               Saul         Aughlisnafin         Glasdrumman                  
Ballyholland               Annaclone         St John Bosco         Aghaderg                  
Bryansford               St Johns         Clann na Banna         Mitchels                  
Rostrevor               Saval         Teconnaught         St Michael's GAC, Magheralin                  
Loughinisland               Liatroim         Bright                           
R.G.U Downpatrick                        Dromara                           
Castlewellan                        St Paul's                           
                                                   
                                                   
Objective is that in 2023 All Divisions will have 10 Teams, where possible.                                                    
                                                   
                                                   
Division One                                                   
11 Rounds  played first.         Teams Retain Points gained throughout the League                                          
After 11 Rounds the Top 4 then play for League Title playing each other Home and Away with then the Top Two meeting in League Final Total of 18 Games                                             17 plus Final      
                                                   
After 11 Rounds the Remaining 8 Teams play each other an additional Seven Games with the Bottom 4 Teams being relegated Total of 18 Games                                                   
                                                   
Division Two  10 Teams                                                   
                                                   
18 Rounds Home and Away   The Top Two Teams are Promoted to Division One and the Bottom 4 Teams are relegated to Division Three - Total of 18 Games                                                   
                                                   
                                                   
Division Three  12 Teams         Teams Retain Points gained throughout the League                                          
After 11 Rounds the Top 4 then play for League Title playing each other Home and Away with then the Top Two meeting in League Final Total of 18 Games                                             Top Two Promoted      
                                                   
After 11 Rounds the remaining 8 Teams play each other in an additional Seven Games with the bottom 5 Teams being relegated to Division Four A    Total of 18 Games                                                   
                                                   
Division Four - Nine Teams                                                    
League Starts with a group of 5 and a Group of 4 Based on Last Years finishing position each team plays each other Home and Away, the winners of each Group are given a bye to Quarter Final of JFC.                                                   
                                                   
After first Rounds then Teams retain Points gained and everyone plays 1 Round of Fixtures - Top Team is promoted to Division Three.  Total Of Games 16

This passed tonight

Brutal to relegate so many teams, especially Division 3 with 5 going down who will likely hammer whoever is left in div 4 next year and effectively be playing a mini league to go back up.

They could easily trim relegation by a team in each division and do it over 2 years.

Lecale Gael

That div 4 format is the worst. You could be a in group of 5 with only two decent teams to play. Total mess.

2016 Prediction Competition 3rd place :)

Truth hurts

The teams with the most county players are at an immediate handicap due to this. I think it's crazy it was passed and I guarantee you there will be a lot of complaints about this later in the season. The leagues are not going to be fair.

Truth hurts

Quote from: thewobbler on February 10, 2022, 08:57:15 PM
I'm really not sure why points are retained for what is in effect a separate competition. But apart from that gripe it makes for one very exciting season.

So you think that a team who finishes in 5th after the first round had 10 points should start the second round of fixtures with a team who has zero points Clubs have not thought this true properly and trust me there will be a lot of complaints about this format. When the league starts there will be a raft of Down seniors who are fringe players who will leave the panel if they are starred. Down senior team is always hampered by the senior leagues.  If you make the league final you will have played a team 4 times before the start of the championship. Familiarity breeds contempt.

Sometimes I wonder what sort of clowns vote for these things.

thewobbler

#36649
Quote from: Truth hurts on February 11, 2022, 09:15:56 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on February 10, 2022, 08:57:15 PM
I'm really not sure why points are retained for what is in effect a separate competition. But apart from that gripe it makes for one very exciting season.

So you think that a team who finishes in 5th after the first round had 10 points should start the second round of fixtures with a team who has zero points Clubs have not thought this true properly and trust me there will be a lot of complaints about this format. When the league starts there will be a raft of Down seniors who are fringe players who will leave the panel if they are starred. Down senior team is always hampered by the senior leagues.  If you make the league final you will have played a team 4 times before the start of the championship. Familiarity breeds contempt.

Sometimes I wonder what sort of clowns vote for these things.

The problem here Truth is with perspective, and whether you believe it's one competition or multiple competitions. I believe it's the latter, except it's been infected by the former.

——

For over a decade after the starred system came into Down football, the leagues operated like this:

- 12 teams per division (with d4 usually smaller)

- Top 4 round robin playoffs for titles / promotion.

- Bottom 4 round robin playoffs for relegation.

And throughout this time, never once did anyone ever suggest, "maybe everyone should start the playoffs with their league points carried over". Do you know why? Because it would have been batshit mad to do so. They wouldn't have been playoffs. Half the games wouldn't even have been played due to foregone conclusions.

——

Personally, I believe that when we choose to split a season and create new leagues based on positions at a point in time, it is not a continuation of a competition. It's the creation of a new one.

This belief is compounded by the simple, inarguable fact that the principle of starred games only worked successfully in tandem with playoffs, as it meant that although clubs with heavy county commitments would likely suffer during the season, that they would at least have a full-squad opportunity to retain their league status.

We all know that long Down summer is unlikely this year. But the availability of players is going to be sore point for a few clubs.

Truth hurts

Quote from: thewobbler on February 11, 2022, 09:44:07 AM
Quote from: Truth hurts on February 11, 2022, 09:15:56 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on February 10, 2022, 08:57:15 PM
I'm really not sure why points are retained for what is in effect a separate competition. But apart from that gripe it makes for one very exciting season.

So you think that a team who finishes in 5th after the first round had 10 points should start the second round of fixtures with a team who has zero points Clubs have not thought this true properly and trust me there will be a lot of complaints about this format. When the league starts there will be a raft of Down seniors who are fringe players who will leave the panel if they are starred. Down senior team is always hampered by the senior leagues.  If you make the league final you will have played a team 4 times before the start of the championship. Familiarity breeds contempt.

Sometimes I wonder what sort of clowns vote for these things.

The problem here Truth is with perspective, and whether you believe it's one competition or multiple competitions. I believe it's the latter, except it's been infected by the former.

——

For over a decade after the starred system came into Down football, the leagues operated like this:

- 12 teams per division (with d4 usually smaller)

- Top 4 round robin playoffs for titles / promotion.

- Bottom 4 round robin playoffs for relegation.

And throughout this time, never once did anyone ever suggest, "maybe everyone should start the playoffs with their league points carried over". Do you know why? Because it would have been batshit mad to do so. They wouldn't have been playoffs. Half the games wouldn't even have been played due to foregone conclusions.

——

Personally, I believe that when we choose to split a season and create new leagues based on positions at a point in time, it is not a continuation of a competition. It's the creation of a new one.

This belief is compounded by the simple, inarguable fact that the principle of starred games only worked successfully in tandem with playoffs, as it meant that although clubs with heavy county commitments would likely suffer during the season, that they would at least have a full-squad opportunity to retain their league status.

We all know that long Down summer is unlikely this year. But the availability of players is going to be sore point for a few clubs.

I do get what you are saying and I fully agree that the availability of the players is going to be massive and will hurt a lot of clubs. Take Gilmore out of St Johns forward line for example, holy christ. Is it fair to penalize Clonduff for having 4 or 5 county players?
The correct thing was to play the full league,
They should have played a lot of Fridays and Mondays. The players love games and it would be better playing a Monday night game than to run around Castlewellan lake.
The fairest thing would have been a full league. This is not a fair system and I fear it could hamper our county squad.


sdg

Quote from: Truth hurts on February 11, 2022, 09:57:15 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on February 11, 2022, 09:44:07 AM
Quote from: Truth hurts on February 11, 2022, 09:15:56 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on February 10, 2022, 08:57:15 PM
I'm really not sure why points are retained for what is in effect a separate competition. But apart from that gripe it makes for one very exciting season.

So you think that a team who finishes in 5th after the first round had 10 points should start the second round of fixtures with a team who has zero points Clubs have not thought this true properly and trust me there will be a lot of complaints about this format. When the league starts there will be a raft of Down seniors who are fringe players who will leave the panel if they are starred. Down senior team is always hampered by the senior leagues.  If you make the league final you will have played a team 4 times before the start of the championship. Familiarity breeds contempt.

Sometimes I wonder what sort of clowns vote for these things.

The problem here Truth is with perspective, and whether you believe it's one competition or multiple competitions. I believe it's the latter, except it's been infected by the former.

——

For over a decade after the starred system came into Down football, the leagues operated like this:

- 12 teams per division (with d4 usually smaller)

- Top 4 round robin playoffs for titles / promotion.

- Bottom 4 round robin playoffs for relegation.

And throughout this time, never once did anyone ever suggest, "maybe everyone should start the playoffs with their league points carried over". Do you know why? Because it would have been batshit mad to do so. They wouldn't have been playoffs. Half the games wouldn't even have been played due to foregone conclusions.

——

Personally, I believe that when we choose to split a season and create new leagues based on positions at a point in time, it is not a continuation of a competition. It's the creation of a new one.

This belief is compounded by the simple, inarguable fact that the principle of starred games only worked successfully in tandem with playoffs, as it meant that although clubs with heavy county commitments would likely suffer during the season, that they would at least have a full-squad opportunity to retain their league status.

We all know that long Down summer is unlikely this year. But the availability of players is going to be sore point for a few clubs.

I do get what you are saying and I fully agree that the availability of the players is going to be massive and will hurt a lot of clubs. Take Gilmore out of St Johns forward line for example, holy christ. Is it fair to penalize Clonduff for having 4 or 5 county players?
The correct thing was to play the full league,
They should have played a lot of Fridays and Mondays. The players love games and it would be better playing a Monday night game than to run around Castlewellan lake.
The fairest thing would have been a full league. This is not a fair system and I fear it could hamper our county squad.
How many starred games is there ?

Truth hurts

I believe there are definitely 5 starred games before the county players are back but if we get out a good run then there will be more. If Down beat Ulster it could be 7 and if they reach an Ulster final it's 9. The Taitleann cup final is early July as well and I hope we are not in that but again it could cause complications.
Was this unanimously for lat night? Do clubs not see how this will affect them or am I going mad? Was anyone here at the meeting?

Johnnysboys

My god - you all had a club rep at the meeting when this was voted for. Obviously the majority of the vote wins lads - it's an age old tradition. Instead of coming up with problems this system has - how about giving some solutions we can use going forward... We can't play the full league - that is very evident - so that's not a solution. In theory playing a game every Friday and some Friday/Monday fixtures would be fantastic. But what about the traditional reasons for getting matches off - stag parties, weddings, funerals of club legends, hurling etc etc - where do we squeeze these games in?? THERE ARE NO WEEKENDS FREE!! The complainers at various clubs will complain no matter what - but don't jump on a bandwagon just for the sake of it. Make sure ur club is not on the wrong side of the league split by putting in the necessary work on the training pitch and keeping points or having no points won't have any impact on ya.

thewobbler

Quote from: Johnnysboys on February 11, 2022, 12:20:49 PM
My god - you all had a club rep at the meeting when this was voted for. Obviously the majority of the vote wins lads - it's an age old tradition. Instead of coming up with problems this system has - how about giving some solutions we can use going forward... We can't play the full league - that is very evident - so that's not a solution. In theory playing a game every Friday and some Friday/Monday fixtures would be fantastic. But what about the traditional reasons for getting matches off - stag parties, weddings, funerals of club legends, hurling etc etc - where do we squeeze these games in?? THERE ARE NO WEEKENDS FREE!! The complainers at various clubs will complain no matter what - but don't jump on a bandwagon just for the sake of it. Make sure ur club is not on the wrong side of the league split by putting in the necessary work on the training pitch and keeping points or having no points won't have any impact on ya.

I'm actually not complaining about the system. It's a seismic improvement on the mooted 16 team D1.

I just find it strange that points are carried across from a qualifying competition to a final competition. Does this happen in any other sport / league you can think of?

Mike Tyson

Quote from: thewobbler on February 11, 2022, 12:50:18 PM
Quote from: Johnnysboys on February 11, 2022, 12:20:49 PM
My god - you all had a club rep at the meeting when this was voted for. Obviously the majority of the vote wins lads - it's an age old tradition. Instead of coming up with problems this system has - how about giving some solutions we can use going forward... We can't play the full league - that is very evident - so that's not a solution. In theory playing a game every Friday and some Friday/Monday fixtures would be fantastic. But what about the traditional reasons for getting matches off - stag parties, weddings, funerals of club legends, hurling etc etc - where do we squeeze these games in?? THERE ARE NO WEEKENDS FREE!! The complainers at various clubs will complain no matter what - but don't jump on a bandwagon just for the sake of it. Make sure ur club is not on the wrong side of the league split by putting in the necessary work on the training pitch and keeping points or having no points won't have any impact on ya.



I'm actually not complaining about the system. It's a seismic improvement on the mooted 16 team D1.

I just find it strange that points are carried across from a qualifying competition to a final competition. Does this happen in any other sport / league you can think of?

SPL split not work like that?

OgraAnDun

Quote from: Mike Tyson on February 11, 2022, 01:17:06 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on February 11, 2022, 12:50:18 PM
Quote from: Johnnysboys on February 11, 2022, 12:20:49 PM
My god - you all had a club rep at the meeting when this was voted for. Obviously the majority of the vote wins lads - it's an age old tradition. Instead of coming up with problems this system has - how about giving some solutions we can use going forward... We can't play the full league - that is very evident - so that's not a solution. In theory playing a game every Friday and some Friday/Monday fixtures would be fantastic. But what about the traditional reasons for getting matches off - stag parties, weddings, funerals of club legends, hurling etc etc - where do we squeeze these games in?? THERE ARE NO WEEKENDS FREE!! The complainers at various clubs will complain no matter what - but don't jump on a bandwagon just for the sake of it. Make sure ur club is not on the wrong side of the league split by putting in the necessary work on the training pitch and keeping points or having no points won't have any impact on ya.



I'm actually not complaining about the system. It's a seismic improvement on the mooted 16 team D1.

I just find it strange that points are carried across from a qualifying competition to a final competition. Does this happen in any other sport / league you can think of?

SPL split not work like that?

I think the same happens for soccer in the north.

manwithnoplan

Quote from: thewobbler on February 11, 2022, 12:50:18 PM
Quote from: Johnnysboys on February 11, 2022, 12:20:49 PM
My god - you all had a club rep at the meeting when this was voted for. Obviously the majority of the vote wins lads - it's an age old tradition. Instead of coming up with problems this system has - how about giving some solutions we can use going forward... We can't play the full league - that is very evident - so that's not a solution. In theory playing a game every Friday and some Friday/Monday fixtures would be fantastic. But what about the traditional reasons for getting matches off - stag parties, weddings, funerals of club legends, hurling etc etc - where do we squeeze these games in?? THERE ARE NO WEEKENDS FREE!! The complainers at various clubs will complain no matter what - but don't jump on a bandwagon just for the sake of it. Make sure ur club is not on the wrong side of the league split by putting in the necessary work on the training pitch and keeping points or having no points won't have any impact on ya.

I'm actually not complaining about the system. It's a seismic improvement on the mooted 16 team D1.

I just find it strange that points are carried across from a qualifying competition to a final competition. Does this happen in any other sport / league you can think of?

It might not be perfect, and I don't believe there needed to be such a rush to balance the numbers in each division for next year, but carrying the points over makes sense in that if a team in the lower end had a good win against a top team in the initial stages, they get to keep the reward from that (2 points) when they are entering what is effectively relegation playoffs. It would be unfair to have what may be the best result in the team's season not rewarded at the end of it all. It could be what keeps them up.

Again I point to Div 3, with 5 down from 8. Imagine you finish fourth in that group by 1 point, and end up in division 4, having had a win against Shamrocks or Drumgath prior to that.

Truth hurts

There will be a lot of complaints about this after the first few games mark my words. It was pushed through by the county board to stop them from getting hassle.

thewobbler

#36659
So IFA and SFL both use this system?

Does it work well? Obviously it's not very good at making the top half of the Scottish league any more competitive.... But is it well received in terms of relegation battles?