Eighth Amendment poll

Started by Farrandeelin, May 01, 2018, 03:36:55 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Are you in favour of repealing the 8th amendment?

Yes
47 (21.8%)
Yes but have no vote
73 (33.8%)
No
40 (18.5%)
No but have no vote
36 (16.7%)
Undecided
20 (9.3%)

Total Members Voted: 216

Voting closed: May 24, 2018, 03:36:55 PM

Itchy

Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 02:28:47 PM
Nobody on the No side can answer the question of whether they believe a 12 year girl made pregnant by rape should be forced to carry a pregnancy to full term.

It's the question they're desperate to avoid.

But one of them once let their guard down about their real views.

It was John McGuirk, spokesman for "Save The 8th".

And his real views are chilling.




See Sid, again as an undecided, I think this is rubbish and I agree with the NO side in the sense that you cannot use extreme cases like this to change the law for 99.9% of other cases. If this is truly the issue then why not ask people to vote on an amendment to the constitution to cover child rape and incest? Again, I am open to any rationale debate and I am genuinely listening but I think this sort of argument is harming the YES argument.

For me, this should be decided on the basis that 99% (or some other big number which I dont have the data on) of people will have an abortion due to non health/mental health/incest/rape issues and the question is whether that is right or wrong.

thebigfella

Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 03:35:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 02:28:47 PM
Nobody on the No side can answer the question of whether they believe a 12 year girl made pregnant by rape should be forced to carry a pregnancy to full term.

It's the question they're desperate to avoid.

But one of them once let their guard down about their real views.

It was John McGuirk, spokesman for "Save The 8th".

And his real views are chilling.




See Sid, again as an undecided, I think this is rubbish and I agree with the NO side in the sense that you cannot use extreme cases like this to change the law for 99.9% of other cases. If this is truly the issue then why not ask people to vote on an amendment to the constitution to cover child rape and incest? Again, I am open to any rationale debate and I am genuinely listening but I think this sort of argument is harming the YES argument.

For me, this should be decided on the basis that 99% (or some other big number which I dont have the data on) of people will have an abortion due to non health/mental health/incest/rape issues and the question is whether that is right or wrong.

That's not the question.

Itchy

Thats the question for me lad. You might make your vote count for different reasons and thats up to you.

magpie seanie

AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Itchy

Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Thanks, it certainly goes some way to explain why hard cases cannot be written into law.

Question I am still back to though is whether it I am in agreement with a situation that any woman for any reason can have an abortion up to 12 weeks. Forget the hard cases as they are a small minority.

Syferus

Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 04:28:02 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Thanks, it certainly goes some way to explain why hard cases cannot be written into law.

Question I am still back to though is whether it I am in agreement with a situation that any woman for any reason can have an abortion up to 12 weeks. Forget the hard cases as they are a small minority.

..forget the hard cases?

magpie seanie

Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 04:28:02 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Thanks, it certainly goes some way to explain why hard cases cannot be written into law.

Question I am still back to though is whether it I am in agreement with a situation that any woman for any reason can have an abortion up to 12 weeks. Forget the hard cases as they are a small minority.

It depends what you classify as a "hard case". Every person's situation and circumstances are different so I don't know how or where you draw the line. I genuinely believe no one does this flippantly or gleefully. It's not a "sure I can always get an abortion" scenario like the likes of Maria Steen try to disingenuously allege. I thought her "social abortion" comment last night was completely disgusting.

What must be acknowledged though it that for whatever reason, thousands of Irish women every year are either going to the UK or ordering pills online. The vast majority of those cases happen prior to 13 weeks. Is it not better that this reality is dealt with in Ireland, with the support of family and friends and a 72 hour reflection period of counselling than a woman being without those supports?

thebigfella

Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Add into the mix nut cases such as Maria Steen could end up challenging the hard cases in courts.

It's just not workable to put "workable" legislation in place for the exceptional circumstances. These things have been pointed out over and over again, debated for months but I still hear people on the no side asking why all the time.

thebigfella

Quote from: thebigfella on May 15, 2018, 05:05:46 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Add into the mix nut cases such as Maria Steen could end up challenging the hard cases in courts.

It's just not realistic to put "workable" legislation in place for the exceptional circumstances. These things have been pointed out over and over again, debated for months but I still hear people on the no side asking why all the time.

Itchy

Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 05:01:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 04:28:02 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Thanks, it certainly goes some way to explain why hard cases cannot be written into law.

Question I am still back to though is whether it I am in agreement with a situation that any woman for any reason can have an abortion up to 12 weeks. Forget the hard cases as they are a small minority.

It depends what you classify as a "hard case". Every person's situation and circumstances are different so I don't know how or where you draw the line. I genuinely believe no one does this flippantly or gleefully. It's not a "sure I can always get an abortion" scenario like the likes of Maria Steen try to disingenuously allege. I thought her "social abortion" comment last night was completely disgusting.

What must be acknowledged though it that for whatever reason, thousands of Irish women every year are either going to the UK or ordering pills online. The vast majority of those cases happen prior to 13 weeks. Is it not better that this reality is dealt with in Ireland, with the support of family and friends and a 72 hour reflection period of counselling than a woman being without those supports?

Well I base it on another "fact" that 1:4 pregnancies in the UK end in abortion. Maybe that fact has been refuted, if it is I never saw it. If true that does tell me that there are a lot of people who are being reckless and using abortion to solve the problem afterwards. Can 1:4 be a result or rape, incest etc.

BennyCake

Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 05:12:07 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 05:01:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 04:28:02 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Thanks, it certainly goes some way to explain why hard cases cannot be written into law.

Question I am still back to though is whether it I am in agreement with a situation that any woman for any reason can have an abortion up to 12 weeks. Forget the hard cases as they are a small minority.

It depends what you classify as a "hard case". Every person's situation and circumstances are different so I don't know how or where you draw the line. I genuinely believe no one does this flippantly or gleefully. It's not a "sure I can always get an abortion" scenario like the likes of Maria Steen try to disingenuously allege. I thought her "social abortion" comment last night was completely disgusting.

What must be acknowledged though it that for whatever reason, thousands of Irish women every year are either going to the UK or ordering pills online. The vast majority of those cases happen prior to 13 weeks. Is it not better that this reality is dealt with in Ireland, with the support of family and friends and a 72 hour reflection period of counselling than a woman being without those supports?

Well I base it on another "fact" that 1:4 pregnancies in the UK end in abortion. Maybe that fact has been refuted, if it is I never saw it. If true that does tell me that there are a lot of people who are being reckless and using abortion to solve the problem afterwards. Can 1:4 be a result or rape, incest etc.

No.

185,000 abortions annually in Eng/Wales according to recent figures. I'd say 90-odd% of those are perfectly healthy foetuses. Absolutely shocking.

Syferus

#461
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 05:12:07 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 05:01:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 04:28:02 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Thanks, it certainly goes some way to explain why hard cases cannot be written into law.

Question I am still back to though is whether it I am in agreement with a situation that any woman for any reason can have an abortion up to 12 weeks. Forget the hard cases as they are a small minority.

It depends what you classify as a "hard case". Every person's situation and circumstances are different so I don't know how or where you draw the line. I genuinely believe no one does this flippantly or gleefully. It's not a "sure I can always get an abortion" scenario like the likes of Maria Steen try to disingenuously allege. I thought her "social abortion" comment last night was completely disgusting.

What must be acknowledged though it that for whatever reason, thousands of Irish women every year are either going to the UK or ordering pills online. The vast majority of those cases happen prior to 13 weeks. Is it not better that this reality is dealt with in Ireland, with the support of family and friends and a 72 hour reflection period of counselling than a woman being without those supports?

Well I base it on another "fact" that 1:4 pregnancies in the UK end in abortion. Maybe that fact has been refuted, if it is I never saw it. If true that does tell me that there are a lot of people who are being reckless and using abortion to solve the problem afterwards. Can 1:4 be a result or rape, incest etc.

The whole point of elective abortion is to provide a solution after the fact if someone doesn't want a baby. You keep talking about it as if it's a failure of the system when it is literally the system working as intended.

What you seem to want is a world where only those who are raped or their life is in danger can get an abortion. I and a lot more have no interest in that sort of compromise, one that will only lead to women feigning mental illness to get the medical care they require at home.

Solve for the problem that exists, not the one you want to exist.

BennyCake

So basically Syferus, you want abortion on demand for everybody for any reason?

Syferus

Quote from: BennyCake on May 15, 2018, 05:28:06 PM
So basically Syferus, you want abortion on demand for everybody for any reason?

I'm absolutely pro-choice. I believe women should have control over their own bodies and no one has anything to fear or lose from granting them that right.

Your attempt to load the question by calling it 'abortion on demand' shows exactly the headspace you're coming from, however.

Franko

Quote from: Syferus on May 15, 2018, 05:23:35 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 05:12:07 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 05:01:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 04:28:02 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Thanks, it certainly goes some way to explain why hard cases cannot be written into law.

Question I am still back to though is whether it I am in agreement with a situation that any woman for any reason can have an abortion up to 12 weeks. Forget the hard cases as they are a small minority.

It depends what you classify as a "hard case". Every person's situation and circumstances are different so I don't know how or where you draw the line. I genuinely believe no one does this flippantly or gleefully. It's not a "sure I can always get an abortion" scenario like the likes of Maria Steen try to disingenuously allege. I thought her "social abortion" comment last night was completely disgusting.

What must be acknowledged though it that for whatever reason, thousands of Irish women every year are either going to the UK or ordering pills online. The vast majority of those cases happen prior to 13 weeks. Is it not better that this reality is dealt with in Ireland, with the support of family and friends and a 72 hour reflection period of counselling than a woman being without those supports?

Well I base it on another "fact" that 1:4 pregnancies in the UK end in abortion. Maybe that fact has been refuted, if it is I never saw it. If true that does tell me that there are a lot of people who are being reckless and using abortion to solve the problem afterwards. Can 1:4 be a result or rape, incest etc.

The whole point of elective abortion is to provide a solution after the fact if someone doesn't want a baby. You keep talking about it as if it's a failure of the system when it is literally the system working as intended.

What you seem to want is a world where only those who are raped or their life is in danger can get an abortion. I and a lot more have no interest in that sort of compromise, one that will only lead to women feigning mental illness to get the medical care they require at home.

Solve for the problem that exsists, not the one you want to exsist.

You seem to have missed the point.  Most of the 'No' side don't want the law changed so this this type of solution "exsists" (lol) in this country.

The reason these figures are being pointed out is to highlight the prevalence of this type of approach in countries which have much more relaxed abortion laws and where elective abortions have become very much normalised.