Casement Park in line for major overhaul - 40,000 all seater Stadium.

[general_lee]

Well surely if the new plans feature a downsized capacity the stadium can be built? Why the need to expand? Mid 30k is sufficient - surely if need be they can convert seating areas to standing to increase capacity? And anything above that - Croke Park can be used. Of course the site is restrained but too much has been pumped into it for there to be a u turn - it'd be a scandal and no politician would back it

No, they can't just slap a roof on the uncovered stand - it's too close to surrounding housing, specifically the apartments blocks on the Andersonstown Road. They had to drop that proposal as part of the planning permission application.

It's not a question of expanding. The original tender was for a 40k stadium. The only reason capacity keeps getting downwardly revised is that the site is to small. The capacity was dropped to appease residents.

I note you haven't addressed any other points.

As for it would be a scandal. Are you serious? It's a scandal already, and one that costs millions each year they persist with the half baked notion of spending once in a century funding on a third rate stadium. On a fifth rate site.

The GAA should never have run with Casement. If they'd picked any other site, big enough for a fully covered stadium, properly designed to maximise views for most spectators, and with enough surrounding space for safe dispersal, it would have been finished by now. Think about that this summer with rain pissing down, while rugby and soccer are sitting pretty.

I didn't mention a roof? Not all of Croke Park is covered and it doesn't prevent it being one of the top stadia in Europe. It also rains in Dublin.

I'm not pro or anti casement btw, if I'd my way the Maze would have been used. At this stage I'd be happy for a reduced capacity stadium with a reduced height that doesn't impact on the MORA residents. Funny as pointed out the whole egress/W Belfast public transport corridor seemingly weren't issues for the old Casement - and that rapid transport system has been in the pipeline a good 15 years at least

Let's hear your proposal for a site that meets the needs of a new stadium where the specification can be met? All well and good picking holes in Casement (of which there are many) let's hear the alternative?

[snatter]

Time for the Ulster Council to cop themselves on and realise that they will never be able to develop a stadium in Anderstown without spending enormous time energy and resources on planning issues and a PR disaster to boot. Time to look elsewhere. Belfast is to much of a tinder box of secterianism and no matter where in Belfast outside of the West Belfast you will encounter objections and obstacles which will be put in place. Casement Park is a dead duck get it up the M1 to Dungannon, (I hear Ann Street is up for Sale by the Banks) were it should have been in the first place to service the needs of Ulster and not for soothing the egos of a few members of the Ulster Council.

I still think that any new stadium should be in Belfast, to
1. Increase the GAA's profile.
2. Maximise income from holding events such as concerts and conferences

A bigger site, somewhere in Greater Belfast could and should be found.

If Belfast wants the benefits a 40k fully covered stadium can bring, it should stump up some of the cost, eg by gifting a site it controls.  Like Liverpool have done with Stanley Park, or Cork have done for Pairc Ui Chaoimh.
Musgrave Park, owned by Belfast City Council & 300m away from Casement would be spot on.

Politically a more neutral location, Musgrave Park would also attract more non-match day income.
A much bigger site, a modern wrap around bowl stadium could be developed.
And no road closures would be needed.

My own suggestion was Musgrave Park. Not averse to Lough Foreshore either. GAA should think about holding beauty contest for councils that want it, best overall package gets it.

[snatter]

I actually disagree with him and other proponents of the redevelopment. The residents are getting a raw deal should these plans go ahead.

The Ulster Council are also getting bad press but it is worth remembering the political pressure being put on them. Hard to see a solution of this that will satisfy all parties.

I do see an easy solution.

Get talking to the Alliance, Sinn Fein and SDLP on Belfast City Council.

Tell them that we'd like to develop a genuine exemplar landmark 40k, fully covered stadium in Musgrave Park.
If necesary, the development could be on some sort of partnership basis.

Inform them that if the council can't provide the site on agreeable terms, then we will take our stadium development elsewhere, eg Dungannon.

Emphasise the economic gains that having such a stadium would have for Belfast, eg GAA events, International Rules, Concerts, Conferences and the Rugby World Cup.

If Alliance/Belfast City Council don't co-operate, then run a beauty contest amongst locations that would like the investment. See what we can get in return, eg sites, infrastructure, facilitating development, etc.

Bump

[snatter]

Regardless of anything it appears there are those on here and elsewhere who dont want Casement to happen. I find it amazing that GAA people have mixed opinions on wanting to establish a landmark presence in Belfast at the home of its most famous ground, after the success of Croke Park. The GAA needs a strong Antrim as we need a strong Dublin and this stadium provides a focus point for excellence and development.  I also wonder about the Antrim county boards role in all this, they need to be steadfastly encouraging this opportunity to happen.

I agree that any new stadium should be in Belfast, to
1. Increase the GAA's profile.
2. Maximise income from holding events such as concerts and conferences

A bigger site, somewhere in Greater Belfast should be found.
Ideally, if Belfast wants the benefits a 40k fully covered stadium can bring, it should stump up some of the cost, eg by gifting a site it controls. 

Like Liverpool have done with Stanley Park, or Cork have done for Pairc Ui Chaoimh.

Musgrave Park, owned by Belfast City Council & 300m away from Casement is ideally suited.
Politically a more neutral location, it would also attract more non-match day income.
It is much bigger site, allowing a truly exemplar design 40k fully covered stadium to be developed.
Something really tall and high impact to advertise the GAA and Irish dimension to our city.

It is big enough to allow crowds to exit the stadium and disperse without having to close neighbouring arterial routes. And closer to train stations as well.

Car parking and other ancilliary building can be done at ground level, not by building expensive underground concrete bunkers.

Bump

[snatter]

Some highly critical comments on Casement's poor "Optimum Viewing Circles" from somebody who appears to know what they're talking about on an architecture forum

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1563744

I actually thought that once the GAA appointed Populous to design Casement Park stadium I thought we'd get a truly great stadium as these guys have so much experience in sport stadium design.

The first thing that jumped out at me is the fact that the stadium has no continuity. None of the stands are the same size, not one, even all the four corners are different sizes. To me this just looks silly and will take away from the aesthetics of any stadium. Even Croke Park and the Aviva look terrible, and they have unity on three sides.
The fact that the Andersonstown Road Stand is so big shouts out to be that they needed to increase the capacity to get it up to 40,000. So they just kept going back until the numbers added up. This is terrible design. The viewing distance from the back of this stand will be far to large.

In the case of a gaelic football the preferred viewing distance should be no more than 150m between the extreme corner of the field and spectator's eye, with an absolute maximum of 190m. Setting out these distances from the extreme viewing positions, such as the diagonally opposed corners of a playing field, gives a preferred viewing zone and their average configuration suggests a circle struck from the centre spot on the field, generally referred to as the 'optimum viewing circle. This circle in the case of football and rugby would have a radius of 90m.

This might sound complicated stuff but i'm sure the people at Populous know this, and if they don't they are in the wrong business. What this means is that well over half the capacity of the Andersonstown Road Stand will be outside the optimum viewing circle. The largest stands should run along the side of the pitch in the long direction.

This isn't good enough for a modern stadium.

It will definitely not be a modern stadium if the entire thing is not roofed. I hate having a ticket in Croke Park on the lower tier of the cusack stand when it rains, and lets face it we live in Ireland .. It rains

Read the above about optimal viewing circles

[snatter]

An area could have been Musgrave park, straight off the motorway and a large enough area for that type of stadium......

Couldn't agree more. No brainer.
It's, what 500m away from Casement, just the other side of the motorway junction, and it's

• closer to the railway stations
• has no neighbouring residents to object to the height of the stadium, allowing everybody to have an optimal view with a roof over their heads
• has no neighbouring residents to object to holding concerts
• is big enough to allow for safe dispersal of crowds without having to close main roads/rapid tranport busways for hours at a time
• big enough to cater for required parking without having to pour millions into the ground to build an underground car park
• will attract more custom, and still be close enough to West Belfast to generate the mooted economic benefits
• council owned, so should in theory be able to acquire easily (or preferably freely, possibly in return for allowing one non - gaa event per year?)

All SF/SDLP/Alliance city councillors should be thinking about the benefits a 40k, truly covered modern bowl design could bring to Belfast city.

More Musgrave advantages

[rrhf]

Musgrave is a serious option.  I honestly think Dungannon is equally a serious option.  If they built a stadium in Dungannon it would help seriously regenerate that area west of the river Bann.  ID fix up Casement for Antrim in the same manner as Armagh has been done and build at Dungannon.   You could have all the concerts, you would want there. 

[illdecide]

I'll tell u what i know... there seems to be a few guys on here that are an expert on Stadium Design and know the RED GUIDE inside and out. I have spoke with a few consultants regarding Casement and the capacity and room for capacity was not a big issue, there was/is room to build a 45K seater stadium but local residents complained about the size of the stands over shadowing their homes so GAA and Designers decided to reduce the size of the stands so it wouldn't have as big an impact as previous design. The biggest factor was the egress time, this is the total time in which all spectators can, in normal conditions, leave an area of viewing accommodation and enter into a free flowing exit system. It does not include the time taken to negotiate the entire exit route. This must happen within 8 minutes of the announcement but Casement Park cannot accommodate therefore the free flowing exit system is inadequate.

Now the strange thing is when the old ground was full to capacity (think it was 32,600) it probably didn't comply with the RED GUIDE safety measures either but there was never a word about it, the best thing going for Casement was that it was/is GAA and there is no segregation with their fans. If it was too accommodate soccer with segregation then it potentially could have been a disaster if trouble was to flare up, gladly we never experienced anything.

Regarding the funding and if it's available to another venue I'm not 100% sure on who said what but i was always under the impression from the Maze was turned down that it was Casement Park or nowt...No other ground/venue was to be considered and if Casement didn't happen we (GAA) lost the grant.

Who peddled the idea that it was Casement or nowt? Was it the Ulster Council?

AFAIK the money was ring fenced for a one off stadium development, where that was was to be a decision for the Ulster Council..

That side of things Johnney i'm not sure on TBH.

Fecking hell. Why does this myth, this utter untruth still keep floating around.
Read slowly:

THE FUNDING CAME WITH A CONDITION THAT IT WAS TO ONLY BE USED TO BUILD ONE STADIUM.

THERE WERE NO CONDITIONS ABOUT WHERE THAT STADIUM HAD TO BE.

ANYONE THAT SAYS DIFFERENTLY IS TALKING OUT OF THEIR SPHINCTER.

Fuc*ing hell cool your jets, does anyone know the truth and can they prove it here not that i give two fiddlers whether it's for Casement or any other ground. It was the actual design i paid attention too and not the location of it. BTW i like your SPHINCTER comment

[general_lee]

Time for the Ulster Council to cop themselves on and realise that they will never be able to develop a stadium in Anderstown without spending enormous time energy and resources on planning issues and a PR disaster to boot. Time to look elsewhere. Belfast is to much of a tinder box of secterianism and no matter where in Belfast outside of the West Belfast you will encounter objections and obstacles which will be put in place. Casement Park is a dead duck get it up the M1 to Dungannon, (I hear Ann Street is up for Sale by the Banks) were it should have been in the first place to service the needs of Ulster and not for soothing the egos of a few members of the Ulster Council.

I still think that any new stadium should be in Belfast, to
1. Increase the GAA's profile.
2. Maximise income from holding events such as concerts and conferences

A bigger site, somewhere in Greater Belfast could and should be found.

If Belfast wants the benefits a 40k fully covered stadium can bring, it should stump up some of the cost, eg by gifting a site it controls.  Like Liverpool have done with Stanley Park, or Cork have done for Pairc Ui Chaoimh.
Musgrave Park, owned by Belfast City Council & 300m away from Casement would be spot on.

Politically a more neutral location, Musgrave Park would also attract more non-match day income.
A much bigger site, a modern wrap around bowl stadium could be developed.
And no road closures would be needed.

My own suggestion was Musgrave Park. Not averse to Lough Foreshore either. GAA should think about holding beauty contest for councils that want it, best overall package gets it.

And residents of Stockman's Lane? Not a given that BCC will just hand over land for free either.

[snatter]

Musgrave is a serious option.  I honestly think Dungannon is equally a serious option.  If they built a stadium in Dungannon it would help seriously regenerate that area west of the river Bann.  ID fix up Casement for Antrim in the same manner as Armagh has been done and build at Dungannon.   You could have all the concerts, you would want there.

Totally agree.

I'd add that Dungannon / Belfast should compete to get it. Concerts, conferences and matches would give a hell of an economic boost worth fighting over.

[snatter]

Time for the Ulster Council to cop themselves on and realise that they will never be able to develop a stadium in Anderstown without spending enormous time energy and resources on planning issues and a PR disaster to boot. Time to look elsewhere. Belfast is to much of a tinder box of secterianism and no matter where in Belfast outside of the West Belfast you will encounter objections and obstacles which will be put in place. Casement Park is a dead duck get it up the M1 to Dungannon, (I hear Ann Street is up for Sale by the Banks) were it should have been in the first place to service the needs of Ulster and not for soothing the egos of a few members of the Ulster Council.

I still think that any new stadium should be in Belfast, to
1. Increase the GAA's profile.
2. Maximise income from holding events such as concerts and conferences

A bigger site, somewhere in Greater Belfast could and should be found.

If Belfast wants the benefits a 40k fully covered stadium can bring, it should stump up some of the cost, eg by gifting a site it controls.  Like Liverpool have done with Stanley Park, or Cork have done for Pairc Ui Chaoimh.
Musgrave Park, owned by Belfast City Council & 300m away from Casement would be spot on.

Politically a more neutral location, Musgrave Park would also attract more non-match day income.
A much bigger site, a modern wrap around bowl stadium could be developed.
And no road closures would be needed.

My own suggestion was Musgrave Park. Not averse to Lough Foreshore either. GAA should think about holding beauty contest for councils that want it, best overall package gets it.

And residents of Stockman's Lane? Not a given that BCC will just hand over land for free either.

Residents much fewer in number, and much much further way from stadium than in Casement, that's for sure! Stadium would be on extreme fringe away from residents. Its's a very big site, allowing egress and exit with minimal impact. Would be furtehr away from housing than Twickenham stadium for example.

Lough foreshore eliminates problem completely. As would a Dungannon site, although the Dungannon site would lack the wider social infrastucture, large number of hotels, etc to maiximise the overall economic return. One thin's for sure, we shouldn't site it anywhere without the local council coming up with an enticing offer in return.

[general_lee]

But surely Stockman's Lane will have the same issues especially around the rapid transport. You're still going to have 40k people pouring out onto an already busy arterial route beside a major junction. The other two sites (Dungannon anyway) should be non-runners

[rrhf]

Dungannon needs a hotel. Commercial opportunity for the gaa. In a revision of transport and infrastructure dungannon is potentially the most adaptable town. Dominated by serious industry the hotel would be booked out 45 weeks a year. Concerts, exhibitions and events would be relatively non invasive. If there's to be a 40k stadium a stadium town like dungannon would be adaptable central and allow for more diverse use of the stadium than any other site.

[Gold]

Stockmans Lane is already a very busy road but granted it is close to motorway and there is plenty of room in Musgrave.
Residents across the road would not be happy with a spaceship being built in front of them, significantly reducing the value of their properties.

Musgrave is a park that is busy every day, year round,, well used by locals for dog walking etc. There aren't many in the city and im not sure it could be justified to close it and put a stadium there that will be used a few times a year

Casement could and should be fixed for Antrim...like Armagh as someone suggested. Getting out of Casement on busy big match days always felt a bit unsafe...whole ground going out onto mostly the one road (although some at owenvarragh first)

Why not go to Dungannon or what have you? Central for Ulster and if we got there for an Ulster Final id prefer to go there on a Motorway than a camel trek to Clones

Quite embarrassing at the moment in Antrim welcoming teams to Corrigan Park. Great pitch and club but thats what it is...a club with grassy banks to stand on not a county ground.

[rrhf]

The key to a forward thinking stadium in Ireland north or south should be the ability to have a retractable roof at some stage in the future. That couldn't happen in casement. Could happen elsewhere. Year round games. Ulster Club championships without the mud baths. Concerts in November Etc