Casement Park in line for major overhaul - 40,000 all seater Stadium.

[Rossfan]

Seaf, you do realise a GAA pitch is much bigger than those of soccerball and ruggerball?

[trailer]

Seaf, you do realise a GAA pitch is much bigger than those of soccerball and ruggerball?

This is true but surely in this day and age we can have retractable seating that gets removed for GAA?
There should have been one stadium but sectarianism took over and we hadn't the political leaders to combat it.

[armaghniac]

Watching the report on RTÉ Prime Time there, it suggested that the Windsor redevelopment had only used half the money that the IFA was supposed to get and that the rest was never paid. This is a genuine reason for a gripe on that side of the house.

[Armagh18]

Watching the report on RTÉ Prime Time there, it suggested that the Windsor redevelopment had only used half the money that the IFA was supposed to get and that the rest was never paid. This is a genuine reason for a gripe on that side of the house.

Hearts broke for them.

[seafoid]

The Euros are a bit of a distraction to cover up the delays I think. Ireland is strange in that the 3 main sports all have to build their own infrastructure.  One reason is because all the power is centralised. There is also the history of non cooperation between sports and the ban.  In other countries like France the city builds the infrastructure and different teams use it . If this was in Cork or Belfast  for example there would be one 50,000 stadium built by the city and used by hurling, football, rugby and soccer. This model is much better. It would work very well in Belfast. The city would get concert profits to support other projects. In Ireland the GAA builds its own stadia. Páirc Uí Chaoimh does not get enough matches... It is the problem child of Irish stadia .

It happens in Uk, it happens in Italy, It happens in USA. It happens in loads of countries the world over. The idea that it's an Irish problem is nonsense.

Does any other European country have 4 field sports of national importance and a history of a poor government who couldn't fund hospitals and schools pre l960s, never mind stadia?

Add to this a history of coldness and paranoia between the 3 administrative organisations . There was very little co-operation.

The stadia developed in a very context to now. It was really "sinn féin". "Just us" for the GAA, soccer and rugby.Exclusive,  not inclusive. And Belfast has a sectarian veneer on top. And 2 separate soccer leagues.


https://youtu.be/fjEkjeVzL34?si=3hD_FhjYI8j8MdsN

The pain of the impact of the ban on sporting legends such as Liam Brady is explained by Eamon Dunphy in this excellent documentary about the 2007 visit of England to Croke Park.
https://youtu.be/4cm96rXP9Ag?si=2tkyKyw9odDIJWl5

Just as a lot of hospitals and schools  have religious names, sporting infrastructure is separate and power is centralised. Local governments cannot raise money .

In a parallel world it would make more sense for Cork to buy Páirc Uí Chaoimh to share with soccer and rugby than for the GAA to need 100 different ways to make money to repay the debt. But that is is how it works at the moment.

That is the impact of  history. 

[Milltown Row2]

Seafoid, you are trying too hard, go back to bed

[imtommygunn]

The Euros are a bit of a distraction to cover up the delays I think. Ireland is strange in that the 3 main sports all have to build their own infrastructure.  One reason is because all the power is centralised. There is also the history of non cooperation between sports and the ban.  In other countries like France the city builds the infrastructure and different teams use it . If this was in Cork or Belfast  for example there would be one 50,000 stadium built by the city and used by hurling, football, rugby and soccer. This model is much better. It would work very well in Belfast. The city would get concert profits to support other projects. In Ireland the GAA builds its own stadia. Páirc Uí Chaoimh does not get enough matches... It is the problem child of Irish stadia .

It happens in Uk, it happens in Italy, It happens in USA. It happens in loads of countries the world over. The idea that it's an Irish problem is nonsense.

Does any other European country have 4 field sports of national importance and a history of a poor government who couldn't fund hospitals and schools pre l960s, never mind stadia?

Add to this a history of coldness and paranoia between the 3 administrative organisations . There was very little co-operation.

The stadia developed in a very context to now. It was really "sinn féin". "Just us" for the GAA, soccer and rugby.Exclusive,  not inclusive. And Belfast has a sectarian veneer on top. And 2 separate soccer leagues.


https://youtu.be/fjEkjeVzL34?si=3hD_FhjYI8j8MdsN

The pain of the impact of the ban on sporting legends such as Liam Brady is explained by Eamon Dunphy in this excellent documentary about the 2007 visit of England to Croke Park.
https://youtu.be/4cm96rXP9Ag?si=2tkyKyw9odDIJWl5

Just as a lot of hospitals and schools  have religious names, sporting infrastructure is separate and power is centralised. Local governments cannot raise money .

In a parallel world it would make more sense for Cork to buy Páirc Uí Chaoimh to share with soccer and rugby than for the GAA to need 100 different ways to make money to repay the debt. But that is is how it works at the moment.

That is the impact of  history. 

That kind of thing happens the world over. You have conflicting sports in every country and it will just be other organisations on the back of it. That problem is a people problem which you will get anywhere.

[seafoid]

The Euros are a bit of a distraction to cover up the delays I think. Ireland is strange in that the 3 main sports all have to build their own infrastructure.  One reason is because all the power is centralised. There is also the history of non cooperation between sports and the ban.  In other countries like France the city builds the infrastructure and different teams use it . If this was in Cork or Belfast  for example there would be one 50,000 stadium built by the city and used by hurling, football, rugby and soccer. This model is much better. It would work very well in Belfast. The city would get concert profits to support other projects. In Ireland the GAA builds its own stadia. Páirc Uí Chaoimh does not get enough matches... It is the problem child of Irish stadia .

It happens in Uk, it happens in Italy, It happens in USA. It happens in loads of countries the world over. The idea that it's an Irish problem is nonsense.

Does any other European country have 4 field sports of national importance and a history of a poor government who couldn't fund hospitals and schools pre l960s, never mind stadia?

Add to this a history of coldness and paranoia between the 3 administrative organisations . There was very little co-operation.

The stadia developed in a very context to now. It was really "sinn féin". "Just us" for the GAA, soccer and rugby.Exclusive,  not inclusive. And Belfast has a sectarian veneer on top. And 2 separate soccer leagues.


https://youtu.be/fjEkjeVzL34?si=3hD_FhjYI8j8MdsN

The pain of the impact of the ban on sporting legends such as Liam Brady is explained by Eamon Dunphy in this excellent documentary about the 2007 visit of England to Croke Park.
https://youtu.be/4cm96rXP9Ag?si=2tkyKyw9odDIJWl5

Just as a lot of hospitals and schools  have religious names, sporting infrastructure is separate and power is centralised. Local governments cannot raise money .

In a parallel world it would make more sense for Cork to buy Páirc Uí Chaoimh to share with soccer and rugby than for the GAA to need 100 different ways to make money to repay the debt. But that is is how it works at the moment.

That is the impact of  history. 

That kind of thing happens the world over. You have conflicting sports in every country and it will just be other organisations on the back of it. That problem is a people problem which you will get anywhere.

Has anyone got any examples ?

Anywhere else in Europe where sports are differentiated by ethnicity or religion like in OWC ?

[twohands!!!]

Most recent state of play on the finances at PuC.

Cork's Páirc Uí Chaoimh debt remains stubbornly north of €30m

CEO report: 'Crippling energy costs, along with fixed charges such as rates present major obstacles. Current stadium debt levels, now resting at over €30m, continue to present a major challenge'

Cork's Páirc Uí Chaoimh debt remains stubbornly north of €30m


FRI, 08 DEC, 2023 - 12:43
JOHN FOGARTY


Cork GAA's Páirc Uí Chaoimh debt remains over €30 million primarily due to no concerts being staged at the venue this year.

As the county reported inter-county team expenditure rising to close to €2m in 2023, the inability to cut the stadium burden from last year remains a pressing and concerning matter.

In his annual report, Cork GAA chief executive Kevin O'Donovan confirmed a new 25-year loan agreement with Croke Park will assist in repaying its debt, which they hope will be fully clear by 2048. However, with only Bruce Springsteen confirmed to play at the Ballintemple venue in 2024, there remains difficulty.

The stadium this year made a comprehensive loss of €2.688m compared to a loss of €3.266m in 2022. Their bank loans as of September 30 were €20.181m, the terms of which are to be revisited in 2028. As of a result of the restructuring with Croke Park, Cork GAA must pay Central Council €636,000 per annum. At the end of September, the loan total was €7,926,438.

"The lack of concerts during 2023 had a major effect on income and with one concert on the books for 2024, returning to profitability will be a major goal," writes O'Donovan. "Crippling energy costs, along with fixed charges such as rates present major obstacles. Current stadium debt levels, now resting at over €30m, continue to present a major challenge.

"In this regard a major positive from 2023 was the signing of a 25-year loan agreement with CLG which will allow a more long-term sustainable approach to repaying debt.

"Also, the sale of Kilbarry will have a significant effect on current debt levels and it is hopeful that the delays in An Bord Pleanala can be overcome to allow a sale in early 2024.

"Finally, with a range of new and exciting commercial partnerships about to be announced at Páirc Uí Chaoimh, naming rights remains on the agenda and there are positive signs here also."

Excluding the stadium accounts, Cork County Board reported a surplus of €467,500. Income-wise, gate receipts from October 2022 to September 2023 were recorded at €1.461m compared to €1.584m in the previous 12-month period. There was a jump of almost €300,000 in gross commercial income to €1.231m, while gross draw income rose by €50,000 to €991,629.

Inter-county expenses came in at €1.995m, over €381,000 more than in 2022. Catering (€413,537), team travel (€421,863) and medical/strength and conditioning and facilities (€634,334) all increased from '22 while there was also a big rise in overnight costs, €143,580 from €38,633.

O'Donovan comments: "A significant jump in commercial income, along with increased returns from Rebels' Bounty contributed to increased revenues. The recent signing of a new 5-year deal with Sports Direct is a major positive in this regard, as is a long-term extension of our partnership with O'Neills.

"Meanwhile, the return from club gates remained high at close to €1.5m despite a slight drop due a seasonal adjustment in relation to final dates and costs associated with the new streaming model.

"Costs associated with inter-county teams increased from €1.614m to €1.995m which reflects the national trend. However, it is worth pointing out that this number includes all six county teams and unlike most counties, reflects an equal investment across both codes."

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/business-of-sport/arid-41286145.html

[twohands!!!]

More on the current state of play in Cork with Pairc Ui Chaoimh.

Very tough to shake the notion tha the odds are high Casement has a good chance of turning out similarly.

The issue for the GAA is that if it does turn out similar it will likely affect all of the Ulster counties negatively instead of just one county as in Cork's case.

Fogarty Forum: Páirc Uí Chaoimh strife haunts Cork
Cork GAA do a decent job of acting like a highly functional organisation but so many of their waking hours are occupied with this huge debt.
Fogarty Forum: Páirc Uí Chaoimh strife haunts Cork

TUE, 12 DEC, 2023 - 07:20
JOHN FOGARTY

It is only when you catalogue the inconveniences the redevelopment of Páirc Uí Chaoimh and servicing its debt has caused Cork teams that the full picture forms.

We'll get to the €30 million-plus albatross that is going to hang around the neck of the sport in the county for the next quarter of a century in a minute. For now, let's list how it has otherwise discommoded players and supporters.

In February 2019, less than two years after the stadium's reopening, the venue's playing surface cut up so badly during a league double-header that it was closed for the remainder of the league. Urgent work on it meant Cork's Super 8 game against Roscommon that July, which they lost, was moved to Páirc Uí Rinn.

Last year, Cork's hurlers were forced to play their Munster SHC round-robin game against Clare in Thurles, a game they lost, because of Ed Sheeran concerts in Páirc Uí Chaoimh. Following weeks of brinksmanship between the Cork players, board and Munster GAA who announced the game would be staged in Killarney, the provincial SFC semi-final against Kerry, which was also pushed out of the Ballintemple stadium because of the gigs, was played in Páirc Uí Rinn.

Next year, Cork's senior footballers will have to play their Sam Maguire/Tailteann Cup round-robin game in Páirc Uí Rinn as the playing surface will not be ready following the Bruce Springsteen concert.
Cork also requested their Munster SHC game against Limerick be arranged for a Saturday evening to allow for the preparations ahead of that May 16 gig, which may have been a contributory factor to the game being shown on GAAGO.

Cork GAA do a decent job of acting like a highly functional organisation and in arranging the 14,000-plus games a year they certainly are. Nevertheless, so many of their waking hours are occupied with this debt, a burden that boots down the road any hope of establishing a long overdue centre of excellence.

They, at least former county board leaders, can't say they weren't warned. Information obtained by the "Irish Examiner" reveals the business plan and Cost Benefit Analysis commissioned by the county board for the stadium to obtain its €30m grant from the Government were dismissed by the then Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport on two occasions.

In March 2015, the department wrote to the Cork County Board stating the CBA "unfortunately falls a good deal short of what of what is required of a CBA as per the Public Spending Code (PSC)".

Three months later, updated versions of the two documents were submitted but again rejected "as "it is not a recognisable cost benefit analysis" and "in conjunction with the lack of other elements that comprise a Business Case, cannot be considered to be in compliance with the Public Spending Code".

The department stated they were concerned about the board's optimism regarding demand projections for match attendances, concert attendances, conference usage and tourism benefits attached to the new stadium.

In August, accompanied by a letter from then GAA director general Páraic Duffy, a new business plan and CBA was issued and approved later that year. Cork stated they were "strictly managing costs" and claimed they could earn €500,000 per annum in naming rights.

Over six years after reopening and that hasn't been realised and there is no question Páirc Ui Chaoimh has been underutilised. It should be hosting more Munster SHC finals. The most modern of all 20,000-plus capacity stadiums in the country never mind the province, there is stark contrast between it and the fading allure of FBD Semple Stadium and TUS Gaelic Grounds.

Cork canvassed intensely but failed to bring the event to the venue this past year. Convincing the GAA to bring All-Ireland quarter-finals there has also proven a challenge, the last without crowd restrictions being the 2018 Clare-Wexford game.

Páirc Uí Chaoimh has become a bogeyman story in the GAA, a constant reminder to national GAA officials of what can happen when counties produce financial projections that are "overly ambitious", as GAA director general Tom Ryan said of Páirc Uí Chaoimh in 2019.

Two years earlier, Cork were saying otherwise about themselves when they sought the €30m Government funding. "CCB has a track record of prudent financial management of their affairs and is confident of being able to adequately manage both the funding and expenditure aspects of the project, as well as its ongoing operation."

As Cork GAA chief executive Kevin O'Donovan, who was appointed in December 2018, said in September, the county hopes to be free of its stadium debt by 2048, 31 years after it reopened following the redevelopment.

Ahead of convention this evening, he returned from the One Cork Worldwide roadshow in the US last week as efforts to fundraise among the diaspora are stepped up. The monies will go towards teams but you can't help feeling it wouldn't be so necessary if Cork weren't mortgaged to their necks.

Cork GAA facing €5 million cashflow crisis unless Páirc operations 'massively' improve
Cork secretary Kevin O'Donovan described the county's cash flow problem as 'stark'.


TUE, 12 DEC, 2023 - 22:15
EOGHAN CORMICAN

Unless there is a "massive improvement" in the operation of Páirc Uí Chaoimh, Cork GAA is facing a €5 million cashflow crisis over the next five years.

At the Cork convention on Tuesday evening, Freemount delegate John O'Flynn drew attention to the "hidden liability" of advance income totalling €4.8m.

O'Flynn explained that the figure relates primarily to Páirc Uí Chaoimh premium level seat sales over the past five years, money which has already been received and spent.

"That well is going to run dry very shortly because there aren't that many premium seats left (for sale). Our cashflow is going to dry up over the next five years," O'Flynn warned.

The Freemount delegate said the cashflow outlook is very worrying given the redeveloped Páirc Uí Chaoimh has turned a profit in only one year, 2022, and that owed to five concerts being staged at the venue.

"We have a stadium that is losing money," O'Flynn said of Páirc Uí Chaoimh's €2.688m loss in 2023.

"For all the years we have got stadium accounts, the stadium has lost money every single year except in 2022 when we had five concerts. I hope we have five concerts in the future, but that is unlikely.

"So we are really challenged for the stadium to even break even. The reality is that if we break even over the next five years, we are going to have a cash shortfall of about €4.8 million because we have already got that cash and it has already been spent.

"Until we sell Kilbarry, we are not going to reduce stadium debt (€31m) and we understand that. But there is a bigger issue coming down the track, it's the cashflow for the next four or five years.

"I would be really concerned that unless there is a massive improvement in the operation of the stadium or huge income from GAA activity, then we are going to struggle to meet that cash requirement over the next five years." There was no disputing of O'Flynn's worrying forecast from the executive top table.

Cork county board treasurer Diarmuid Gowan said that with only one concert in the pipeline for next year, it will make 2024 "very challenging".

Cork secretary Kevin O'Donovan described the county's cash flow problem as "stark".

He said concerts are "windfall" events and that the stadium needs to reach a "steady-state position" where it is not reliant on concerts to turn a profit.

O'Donovan remarked that soccer games at Páirc Uí Chaoimh are not off the table going forward.

"It is a very dangerous model for us to base a business plan on three concerts a year, which was done previously. They are windfalls. They come, they go.

"In terms of GAA activity, you know the challenges we face in getting major games to this stadium. All we hear is negativity. That is why we have to continue to explore other sports. Expect a debate on soccer coming too in the future. We have to consider those in the context of the stark financial picture we are in.

"Our discussion every day is cashflow, rather than profit and loss. Commercial partnerships could bring in €500,000 a year to this stadium in the very near future. We have two deals signed, we have another almost signed."

In his parting speech, outgoing county board chairman Marc Sheehan said the reticence of counties to travel to Páirc Uí Chaoimh needs to dissipate in 2024 and beyond.

"Let us not understate the significance of Páirc Uí Chaoimh. It remains the most modern GAA venue in Ireland despite seemingly incessant sniping from some quarters.

"Perhaps if some of the energy dispensed by others outside of the county with criticism of our stadium was channeled more meaningfully within their own units, it might result in better infrastructural outcomes for other units," said Sheehan.

[trailer]

The Irish FA remain 'confident' that the new Casement Park will be completed in time for Northern Ireland to co-host the 2028 European Championship finals.
At the beginning of a make or break year for UEFA to stick with Euro 2028 games being played here, the Belfast Telegraph can reveal to that end a group called the Northern Ireland Oversight Committee has been formed consisting of IFA, GAA and government partners.

The group was put together at the end of 2023 and tasked with meeting on a monthly basis to ensure that all aspects of the project are on track.

The construction of a 'new' 34,500 capacity Casement Park has been beset by problems for over a decade with delays due to legal challenges and since it was announced that the GAA stadium would be one of 10 venues for Euro 2028 fixtures in the UK and Ireland controversy has raged with many Northern Ireland fans slamming the IFA and voicing their disapproval of the team playing games at the west Belfast ground.

This year IFA Chief Executive Patrick Nelson and President Conrad Kirkwood plan to meet fans across the country to answer questions on Casement Park and other issues having held a first Q and A session with members of the Kilkeel Northern Ireland Supporters Club in November.

While the IFA attempt to get fans onside, the GAA need to appoint a new contractor so work can start on the stadium this year which is considered a priority if it is to be built in time for the Euro 2028 tournament.

In 2013 it was agreed that Casement would be constructed by the England-based Buckingham Group and the Northern Ireland firm Heron Bros but the Buckingham Group went into administration in September.

Two months later the Ulster GAA stated that Heron Bros would not proceed with the project and that they were working with the Department of Communities to secure a new contractor.

Originally the budget to build Casement Park was set at £77.5m with the NI Executive paying £62.5m and the GAA providing £15m. All these years on with the rise of construction costs some estimate the fees could be in the region of £160m.

The British government have pledged to foot the bill with the Republic of Ireland government pointing out they will also help with costs while the GAA are still committed to handing over £15 million.

Despite all the issues, key sources in the IFA say they are confident that Casement Park will be finished on time and ready to stage games in Euro 2028.

The new Northern Ireland Oversight Committee is seen as key to making that happen.

[armaghniac]

I wonder what is the consequence of the Assembly restarting for this project?

[p3427977]

I wonder what is the consequence of the Assembly restarting for this project?

None I think. It can go ahead without the Assembly.

[Norm-Peterson]

The GAA were glad to get the army out of Casement park and now they can't wait to get Northern Ireland loyalist fans in.

https://discover.bbcrewind.co.uk/asset/5ba0c398df0d480029d4d66a?q=Casement%20park&size=30

https://discover.bbcrewind.co.uk/asset/5ba0c392df0d480029d4d5fd?q=Casement%20park

[armaghniac]

The GAA were glad to get the army out of Casement park and now they can't wait to get Northern Ireland loyalist fans in.

https://discover.bbcrewind.co.uk/asset/5ba0c398df0d480029d4d66a?q=Casement%20park&size=30

https://discover.bbcrewind.co.uk/asset/5ba0c392df0d480029d4d5fd?q=Casement%20park

Brits out, Irish in, that is the GAA down to the ground.