Casement Park in line for major overhaul - 40,000 all seater Stadium.

[Franko]

This discussion has been going round in circles for years. Clones getting the funding keeps coming up for some reason as if that was ever likely. In fairness it would be worth it just to see the DUP outrage and general losing their shit. It would be on an epic proportion if GB money was going to a foreign land

clones is a horrendous stadium and an awful location for a provincial ground.
gaa should have pumped the monies into  armagh and built it up or even newry to say 33k
casement given the mess we are in , within North is genuinely a waste of monies
everything seems broken and the pushing for say 80million oftaxpayers monies just doesnt seem right it it comes to the detriment of essential services

Casement is a better venue to develop non footballing revenue. Concerts, Corporate meetings. Belfast has hotels and other infrastructure that Armagh, Newry and Derry doesn't.
It isn't a waste of taxpayers money. We'll have a brand new stadium and the European championships that will bring a huge boost to Belfast and NI. There'll be a huge boost for the people of West Belfast as well.

Casement, no matter the cost needs to be built.

The North is not stable enough to assume a regular stream of concerts and corporate meetings. Corporate investment is homeopathic compared to the South because of political instability. The DUP do not care about things like economic growth or Taylor Swift's arse.

The Casement Project needs a BRAUNS analysis

Benefits
Risks
Alternatives
Unknowns
What if they do nothing
And a Safety net in case it goes tits up

this analysis is standard in hospitals in the North

Eh?

The North already assumes a 'regular stream of concerts and corporate meetings'

Providing this is built, it will 'assume' hosting the European Championships

The success of any project is inversely proportional to the number of corporate acronyms employed in its delivery

Though we could make room for a SEAFOID analysis on this one

S pews
E xcrement
A nd
F olly
O n the
I nternet
D aily

[trailer]

This discussion has been going round in circles for years. Clones getting the funding keeps coming up for some reason as if that was ever likely. In fairness it would be worth it just to see the DUP outrage and general losing their shit. It would be on an epic proportion if GB money was going to a foreign land

clones is a horrendous stadium and an awful location for a provincial ground.
gaa should have pumped the monies into  armagh and built it up or even newry to say 33k
casement given the mess we are in , within North is genuinely a waste of monies
everything seems broken and the pushing for say 80million oftaxpayers monies just doesnt seem right it it comes to the detriment of essential services

Casement is a better venue to develop non footballing revenue. Concerts, Corporate meetings. Belfast has hotels and other infrastructure that Armagh, Newry and Derry doesn't.
It isn't a waste of taxpayers money. We'll have a brand new stadium and the European championships that will bring a huge boost to Belfast and NI. There'll be a huge boost for the people of West Belfast as well.

Casement, no matter the cost needs to be built.

The North is not stable enough to assume a regular stream of concerts and corporate meetings. Corporate investment is homeopathic compared to the South because of political instability. The DUP do not care about things like economic growth or Taylor Swift's arse.

The Casement Project needs a BRAUNS analysis

Benefits
Risks
Alternatives
Unknowns
What if they do nothing
And a Safety net in case it goes tits up

this analysis is standard in hospitals in the North

Eh?

The North already assumes a 'regular stream of concerts and corporate meetings'

Providing this is built, it will 'assume' hosting the European Championships

The success of any project is inversely proportional to the number of corporate acronyms employed in its delivery

Though we could make room for a SEAFOID analysis on this one

S pews
E xcrement
A nd
F olly
O n the
I nternet
D aily

LOL

[Rossfan]

 

[tonto1888]

Brilliant

[Armagh18]

This discussion has been going round in circles for years. Clones getting the funding keeps coming up for some reason as if that was ever likely. In fairness it would be worth it just to see the DUP outrage and general losing their shit. It would be on an epic proportion if GB money was going to a foreign land

clones is a horrendous stadium and an awful location for a provincial ground.
gaa should have pumped the monies into  armagh and built it up or even newry to say 33k
casement given the mess we are in , within North is genuinely a waste of monies
everything seems broken and the pushing for say 80million oftaxpayers monies just doesnt seem right it it comes to the detriment of essential services

Casement is a better venue to develop non footballing revenue. Concerts, Corporate meetings. Belfast has hotels and other infrastructure that Armagh, Newry and Derry doesn't.
It isn't a waste of taxpayers money. We'll have a brand new stadium and the European championships that will bring a huge boost to Belfast and NI. There'll be a huge boost for the people of West Belfast as well.

Casement, no matter the cost needs to be built.

The North is not stable enough to assume a regular stream of concerts and corporate meetings. Corporate investment is homeopathic compared to the South because of political instability. The DUP do not care about things like economic growth or Taylor Swift's arse.

The Casement Project needs a BRAUNS analysis

Benefits
Risks
Alternatives
Unknowns
What if they do nothing
And a Safety net in case it goes tits up

this analysis is standard in hospitals in the North

Cause they're so successful...

[seafoid]

How much debt will Antrim Co Board/The Ulster council be left with ?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-41235151.html

"Cork GAA is optimistic the new 25-year financial model for Páirc Uí Chaoimh will enable the stadium to be debt free by 2048.

At the core of this new financial plan for the debt burdened Páirc Uí Chaoimh, approved by Central Council earlier this month, is a more favourable interest rate that will be "more in line with GAA funding, as opposed to bank rates".

Bank debt arising from the stadium redevelopment stood at €21,056,000 as of last September. Annual loan repayments of €1.1m were being made to service that total. Money owed by Cork county board to Croke Park, meanwhile, stood at €7,763,722.

The two figures combined reach almost €29m, but county board secretary Kevin O'Donovan said in his annual report last December that legacy debt from the stadium redevelopment rests well above the €30m mark."


PuC was paying around 5%. There is no DUP in Cork so there is no political risk in running anything and it is still difficult to pay the bills. The builders don't care. They get paid anyway.

[Milltown Row2]

Antrim are actually debt free at the moment, Casement was 'taken' by the Ulster Council so that will be a province issue in regards to any debt that may happen..

[twohands!!!]

Correct, they have done their case studies and are confident that corporate events, meetings, concerts etc will sustain the stadium not to mention jobs for some locals (who want a job) and the economy. Ohh and the most important thing is the games in the stadium...Get that 40N Concrete ready

I heard the exact same thing about Pairc Ui Chaoimh from Cork People.
Then it came out when the EU went looking into it because it was getting government money that there was no business plan whatsoever.

Even if Ulster GAA do have a business plan lying around,  I'd be pretty sure it was just a case of creating one after they had already decided to go ahead and build, as opposed to doing a proper one which would be looking at the situation and seeing if the numbers add up beforehand and being willing to abandon the project if they don't.

I wouldn't be surprised if the sort of thing that happened to Cork's finances happens to Ulster GAA once the stadium is complete as happened to Cork - higher costs to finish the stadium then higher operating costs than expected followed by lower revenues than expected leading to other areas being cut-to the bone. Stormont,The Dail and Croke Park will all say we gave a pile of money for the stadium, don't come looking for anything else for a long while. I wonder what the Ulster GAA equivalent of the Cork footballers having to paint and set-up their own gym in a shed will be?

[seafoid]

Antrim are actually debt free at the moment, Casement was 'taken' by the Ulster Council so that will be a province issue in regards to any debt that may happen..

What sort of modelling of interest rate risk has been done?
Rates are much higher  now than when PuC was relaunched.
PUC needed a hand with interest from Croke Park.
Debt is not a straightforward solution.

[RedHand88]

Where should Ulster finals be played Seafoid? What's the alternative?

[seafoid]

It will cost  money to open up Casement for concerts and they will have to have a minimum size. Maybe it's 10,000 . Franko would know. He must have done all the stress testing.  How many concerts with crowds bigger than this does the North run ever year?  12th of July doesn't count.

And for big concerts Belfast will be in competition with Dublin and ... Cork
The big question is how much debt the Ulster Council is taking on. 

Inflation is not under control. Last time rates went to 18%.

[seafoid]

Where should Ulster finals be played Seafoid? What's the alternative?

I think this a big question for the GAA. Does every province need an all seater stadium? Do GAA fans ?
What's wrong with the existing level of up to date infrastructure ?  How much would it cost to redevelop Clones to the level of say Thurles ? Is there a comparison of various options and how much they cost?  Why didn't the IFA build a bigger stadium? Because they don't want the risk. They aren't that stupid.

Apparently the partitionist regime were going to pay £61m with the GAA ponying up £15m . Now the cost is estimated at between £112 and £140m.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/reality-check-not-blank-cheque-171454796.html

Say it's £125m. That's £39m over budget. The North is hardly going to  be in a position to make up the difference. The South is already sponsoring nursing training.


Forget about the grant. Can an affordable refurbishment happen elsewhere? Pairc Ui chaoimh really needed the South Africa match last year. the GAA waved it through . The projections have obviously been under stress and they had to be bailed out by Croke Park.

This isn't very encouraging :
https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/companies/arid-40089974.html
Cork GAA says €33m Páirc Uí Chaoimh debt is 'not frightening'
"Looking at new revenue streams including naming rights for Páirc Uí Chaoimh, a museum and cafe in the stadium, improved conference facilities and increased concerts"

Conferences and concerts are in competition with other venues. "New revenue streams" does not sound good.  It's actually complicated. Pairc Ui chamoimh has always had these problems as well. Siamsa cois Laoi was held regularly in the 80s to help with the debt of the 1976 project.

[RedHand88]

Clones is a no go. There are no trains and only a handful of roads in or out. The Monaghan road is a complete sh1tshow before and are games. It is a place that woefully inadequate for a stadium of that size. And that's before we get to the state of the stadium itself.

Casement is 100m from the motorway. It has the Europa bus centre and train station 10mins away. It has any amount of shops, pubs,  restaurants etc in the immediate vicinity. It is the only option. Stadiums are supposed to go in cities, not rural towns 2 hours drive from any city.

[armaghniac]

Apparently the partitionist regime were going to pay £61m with the GAA ponying up £15m . Now the cost is estimated at between £112 and £140m.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/reality-check-not-blank-cheque-171454796.html

Easy to say forget about the grant, but then the GAA has to do up somewhere and also restore Casement to use.

Simple inflation, which has raised taxes and ticket prices and so the ability to contribute, is 41%. Both parties should meet inflation. Then there is a distinct EURO contribution, which London will also make to works in Britain. This would bring you in to the region of the lower £112m above. Every effort should be made not to go too much beyond that, construction inflation has moderated, there isn't quite the same pressure of work. But a bit more will be needed and the Dublin government is willing to make a symbolic contribution. The UK government get back 40% of any expenditure in taxes anyway so they too can do something.

Clones is a no go. There are no trains and only a handful of roads in or out. The Monaghan road is a complete sh1tshow before and are games. It is a place that woefully inadequate for a stadium of that size. And that's before we get to the state of the stadium itself.

Casement is 100m from the motorway. It has the Europa bus centre and train station 10mins away. It has any amount of shops, pubs,  restaurants etc in the immediate vicinity. It is the only option. Stadiums are supposed to go in cities, not rural towns 2 hours drive from any city.

Of course Clones was chosen as it had trains, but Stormont sabotaged that. Stadiums should be convenient for people, but not many people in Belfast will go, the people who will go often live near Clones.

[Tony Baloney]

Page 271 and people are still asking why Clones can't be upgraded instead of Casement