Down Club Hurling & Football

Started by Lecale2, November 10, 2006, 12:06:55 AM

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thewobbler

#24345
In the interests of balance, I've a few points to make:


1. The throw in tonight was 6.30pm. Why on earth you'd want to send 30 men down the day before, and force them into an entire day bored out their wits in Wexford waiting for a match, is beyond me. Really beyond me. Why you keep posting this is bordering on madness. There is nothing ruins a team's match day preparations more than limbo. And your're proposing pergutory.


2. By all means criticise administration. But don't confuse the county board's fundraising activity with administrative activity. One cannot exist without the other, but they're entrirely separate  functions which must continue in isolation. There is not one man on the county board who got involved so they could spend their lives raising money. Like you, like I, they want to see (help, and direct) a better football and hurling heritage in Down. But the sting in the tail is that it ALWAYS falls on administrators to also raise funds for their initiatives.

3. While I'm sure the county board could do more to help football in Newry (Downpatrick, Castlewellan, Kilkeel, and Newcastle), it's fundamentally flawed and unfair to blame the board for problems in these towns. They all have clubs who should be leading the charge, and in each case, long established clubs. Player development HAS to be first and foremost the responsibility of the clubs, then the schools. After that the county board should ensure that elite talent is nurtured for the county game. But when you've the likes of Downpatrick regularly in intermediate football, Shamrocks, Bosco and Mitchels in Junior football, and schools like Red High and St Louis unable to qualify from intermediate level group stages, then it's surely a tad unfair to suggest the county board is the big problem?

snoopdog

Where could we have been this summer with the following in the squad. Gordon, Rodgers, Coulter, Clarke, McComiskey.  Ask yourself that McCorry then hand in your notice.

Tiocfaidh Ned


behind the wire

That was a long journey home.
He who laughs last thinks the slowest

interested

 Dismal,disappointing,disastrous Down. Depressing,demoralising,dreadful Down. I could go on but after all the hype of getting promoted,we mess up. A re-run of Westmeath's brief stay in DIv 1 and the statistic of no Ulster title in 22 years. Where has it all gone wrong?  The previous mention of the "Down Way" is definitely not the way.

Highlander3

Quote from: thewobbler on June 27, 2015, 11:25:14 PM
In the interests of balance, I've a few points to make:


1. The throw in tonight was 6.30pm. Why on earth you'd want to send 30 men down the day before, and force them into an entire day bored out their wits in Wexford waiting for a match, is beyond me. Really beyond me. Why you keep posting this is bordering on madness. There is nothing ruins a team's match day preparations more than limbo. And your're proposing pergutory.


2. By all means criticise administration. But don't confuse the county board's fundraising activity with administrative activity. One cannot exist without the other, but they're entrirely separate  functions which must continue in isolation. There is not one man on the county board who got involved so they could spend their lives raising money. Like you, like I, they want to see (help, and direct) a better football and hurling heritage in Down. But the sting in the tail is that it ALWAYS falls on administrators to also raise funds for their initiatives.

3. While I'm sure the county board could do more to help football in Newry (Downpatrick, Castlewellan, Kilkeel, and Newcastle), it's fundamentally flawed and unfair to blame the board for problems in these towns. They all have clubs who should be leading the charge, and in each case, long established clubs. Player development HAS to be first and foremost the responsibility of the clubs, then the schools. After that the county board should ensure that elite talent is nurtured for the county game. But when you've the likes of Downpatrick regularly in intermediate football, Shamrocks, Bosco and Mitchels in Junior football, and schools like Red High and St Louis unable to qualify from intermediate level group stages, then it's surely a tad unfair to suggest the county board is the big problem?



Point 3 here is a big issue for us, at underage east down and newry are going backwards, down need this changed and the responsibility has to rest with both the county board and the clubs. We also have to start bringing through so of the belfast lads to senior, they have good underage teams but we loss them as the get older.

I think we have to make changes as we are going backwards it's been 6 or 7 years since we had a good underage team, so the future does not look great either.


DownFanatic

Quote from: outinfront on June 27, 2015, 09:47:10 PM
Quote from: Line Ball on June 27, 2015, 09:43:44 PM
Quote from: DownFanatic on June 27, 2015, 09:36:35 PM
Simply can't replace quality with quantity.
Genuinely thought we would have won today.

What do you mean quantity?

Presumably training and making concessions for older more experienced proven players?

Yes, for want of a better expression but not really in regards to training as most counties are putting in serious shifts. Huge effort went into this year from the players and management and to bow out like we did yesterday is very disappointing.
It's all what ifs but I just wonder if some sort of concessions were made for the likes of Coulter, Gordon etc would our fortunes have turned out any better.


Maiden1

Down will continue to struggle at minor and senior level until they start choosing from the whole county.  Since Pete McGrath every other manager has managed Down like a club manager with a small squad i.e.  picking the best players from the best teams around and tried to make the best of the small squad, irrespective of whether that squad have the right attributes to make a successful county team.  Because of this we end up with 6 similar forwards and a midfield area that would struggle to break even against any of the top teams. 

Contrast this with when Pete McGrath was in charge, there was 8 players from East Down on the Down team in 1991, over 1/2 the team played most of there club football outside of division 1.  Burren had 2 players on the team in 1991 and 0 in 1994 even though Burren were still one of the best teams in Ireland (They lost ulster final replay in 1992).  Nearly all the team where over 6ft and good athletes.

Now if there was a player playing for e.g. Bright who is 6ft 4, good in the air, fast, a good engine, that can break a tackle they would never have any chance of being considered for a trial but a really top manager should be able to coach a player like that to be good county player.
There are no proofs, only opinions.

snoopdog

Those members of club Down not getting much value for the 120 gbp per year. I'm pulling mine. Have better things to spend a tenner a month on. If the county board don't give a f**k then I'm not wasting my money however small an amount it is.  They will be taking another 6 months subscriptions for what? Development of the game?  We will be here again next year with the same fools in charge.

OgraAnDun

Quote from: thewobbler on June 27, 2015, 11:25:14 PM
In the interests of balance, I've a few points to make:


1. The throw in tonight was 6.30pm. Why on earth you'd want to send 30 men down the day before, and force them into an entire day bored out their wits in Wexford waiting for a match, is beyond me. Really beyond me. Why you keep posting this is bordering on madness. There is nothing ruins a team's match day preparations more than limbo. And your're proposing pergutory.



That's rubbish. Are you trying to say sitting in a bus for three hours is better preparation for a match? A journey like that is tiring and your legs are stiff and cramped at the end. Would you have wanted to jump out of the car and play a championship match yesterday after going down?

If they had gone down on Friday night they could have slept in Saturday morning, got up around half ten or so, had breakfast together as a team, done some stretching after breakfast, probably a pre-match meeting to go over Wexford and the game plan, had lunch and that probably could have brought it up to three o'clock. Then they could have relaxed in the sauna or Jacuzzi that is presumably in the hotel for an hour or so before heading down to Wexford Park around five o'clock. If that's your version of Purgatory then maybe I had better renounce my baptism. There's a lot less limbo in that than staring out the window on a bus for three hours, and I know which one is better match preparation.

thewobbler

Not sure about your post maiden. But of misty eyed bias going on.

Had there been a 16 team D1 at the time then the likes of Carryduff, Ballymartin and Warrenpoint would have spent most of their seasons in it. The only genuine outliers in terms of club team, in either 91 or 94 were James McCartan (the best young player in Ireland) and Peter Withnell (who came up through the minor and u21 ranks).

Also the reason why so many East Down players were involved wasn't complicated: Downpatrick were the best side in the county, while Loughinisland, Castlewellan and Bryansford were all thereabouts. Run back through the last 30 years of Down football and you'll see a rather straightforward trend - when there are more East Down sides challenging in D1, there are more East Down players on the Down panel. It's not bias.

As for players over 6' tall. Ross tried this experiment in 2007 and 2008, and the results were laughable. This isn't 1985. In order to play county football you have to have the athleticism and application of a top athlete. If there's a 6' 4" lad lumbering around a D3 team, all a county call-up is going to do is reinforce how far behind he is. If he actually has the ability to play county ball there is no way on earth he wouldn't be on the radar from a young age. But if he falls a mile behind, he's never catching up again.




Highlander3

Quote from: thewobbler on June 28, 2015, 10:51:10 AM
Not sure about your post maiden. But of misty eyed bias going on.

Had there been a 16 team D1 at the time then the likes of Carryduff, Ballymartin and Warrenpoint would have spent most of their seasons in it. The only genuine outliers in terms of club team, in either 91 or 94 were James McCartan (the best young player in Ireland) and Peter Withnell (who came up through the minor and u21 ranks).

Also the reason why so many East Down players were involved wasn't complicated: Downpatrick were the best side in the county, while Loughinisland, Castlewellan and Bryansford were all thereabouts. Run back through the last 30 years of Down football and you'll see a rather straightforward trend - when there are more East Down sides challenging in D1, there are more East Down players on the Down panel. It's not bias.

As for players over 6' tall. Ross tried this experiment in 2007 and 2008, and the results were laughable. This isn't 1985. In order to play county football you have to have the athleticism and application of a top athlete. If there's a 6' 4" lad lumbering around a D3 team, all a county call-up is going to do is reinforce how far behind he is. If he actually has the ability to play county ball there is no way on earth he wouldn't be on the radar from a young age. But if he falls a mile behind, he's never catching up again.

I don't really think there is a bias against east down, but the standard in east down has slipped and that's a problem that we have to do something about

SHEEDY

Quote from: OgraAnDun on June 28, 2015, 10:50:18 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 27, 2015, 11:25:14 PM
In the interests of balance, I've a few points to make:


1. The throw in tonight was 6.30pm. Why on earth you'd want to send 30 men down the day before, and force them into an entire day bored out their wits in Wexford waiting for a match, is beyond me. Really beyond me. Why you keep posting this is bordering on madness. There is nothing ruins a team's match day preparations more than limbo. And your're proposing pergutory.



That's rubbish. Are you trying to say sitting in a bus for three hours is better preparation for a match? A journey like that is tiring and your legs are stiff and cramped at the end. Would you have wanted to jump out of the car and play a championship match yesterday after going down?

If they had gone down on Friday night they could have slept in Saturday morning, got up around half ten or so, had breakfast together as a team, done some stretching after breakfast, probably a pre-match meeting to go over Wexford and the game plan, had lunch and that probably could have brought it up to three o'clock. Then they could have relaxed in the sauna or Jacuzzi that is presumably in the hotel for an hour or so before heading down to Wexford Park around five o'clock. If that's your version of Purgatory then maybe I had better renounce my baptism. There's a lot less limbo in that than staring out the window on a bus for three hours, and I know which one is better match preparation.

100%. if they were only staying 1 night then that surely should have been friday night. 4 hours travelling is no preparation for a championship match but then maybe a night out in wexford on saturday night appealed that bit more.
nil satis nisi optimum

bridgegael

mccorrys decision to cut short gordon , coulter and rodgers county careers has come back to bite him and he has to pay the ultimate price im afraid.
"2009 Gaaboard Cheltenham fantasy league winner"

Dubh driocht

Hard to know where to start.

Firstly, I agree with Wobbler on the logistics/funding. Whatever we think of the performance, these lads put in a big effort and I don't begrudge them a night in Wexford. It was well after midnight when we got home and it's interesting that the majority of those criticising this aspect of the arrangements didn't bother their holes/had other pressing commitments (delete as appropriate) going to the game. Also, the county board are right to consider different ideas to raise revenue- it's a thankless job and there are always going to be people who complain about the dark rather than turn on the light.

Second, the performance was poor. Kane was too slow with his kick-outs but made three excellent saves. O'Hagan had his work cut out on Ling but never gave up. Howard was conceding 6 inches to their monster FF but , like most of the defenders, had a poor game. Garvey was unlucky-the aforementioned FF hit him first yet, as always, he wasn't cute enough to disguise a fairly good uppercut and then looked as guilty as sin and left Reilly with little option other than line him. One of our few consistent performers, Mc Kernan, sustained a bad looking ankle strain early on yet still gave 100%; I presume he was suffering from the injury when called ashore ( or maybe McCorry and co. really have lost the plot).
I have said what I said about the midfield before and after the Derry game. Mooney, however, really tried hard- he has a strange blend of supreme talent and uncertainty- just when he was starting to dominate midfield he was shifted to FF. WTF?

Thirdly- the manager. I won't include Morgan and Copeland as McCorry is his own man - while he appears to consult with them, he calls the shots. When the word first came out that he was demanding complete commitment and no concessions, regardless of ability, the county appeared split between those who backed him, based on what he'd achieved with the Bridge and Kilcoo and those who said he would regret that call. It's the latter camp who are out in full flow today and it's hard to argue against them as we're out of the championship in June having lost two games we should have won. However, he was never going to deviate from his plan and now has six months to reflect on it. There is a thin line between confidence and arrogance and he should reflect on his decision-making as this is a results business. Paddy Heaney made reference to his golfing approach so here's my golf analogy; when you want to hit it long you need power from a driver. No matter how much you practice with a putter, it is the wrong tool to hit the ball long. So in Gaelic Football you need a balance in a team and maiden1 is right to suggest he should think about a team rather than a group of individuals. I have serious respect for Kilcoo, and for the commitment of their players, but only Kane and Laverty are county standard. To not field Peter Turley in the two games, and only a bit part for Madine, when we were being steamrolled, was a sin. The defeats by Roscommon and Meath showed the need for big men yet he let Ryan Mallon go and didn't  persuade Dan Gordon back. We could go on but credit where credits due- he got us back to Division 1 and was still probably the right man to succeed James. We have had some bad results in the back door and took a bad tanking last year at home to Kildare so some perspective is needed. We were a division 2 team this year, Wexford were division 3 , and they out-played us last night. People are rightly apprehensive about Division 1 next year but McCorry has 6 months to prepare us and just about deserves the opportunity to lead it.